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On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them?
It doesn't benefit them at all, when caught. They're just not prohibited from all activities in their lives.
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On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them?
Salaries?
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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:31 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries?
and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors?
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On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:31 Clonester wrote:On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries? and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors?
The sponsors are (were) driven away by the matchfixing scandal itself. This public request from KeSPA to Afreeca is doing more harm in that regard I bet than the streaming matchfixers were before it.
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Afreeca is now part of the scene, It is directly connected through GSL. Can you imagine for example some big sports channel to allow Lance Armstrong to have show on their channel? No. But here, some people are trying to defend such a behaviour. I could close one eye, if they would not own GSL and were some small streaming platform, but they are not. They can not justify their action and they are committing pr suicide. They are not doing something illegal of course, but It is morally wrong.
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On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:31 Clonester wrote:On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries? and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors?
Thats a self-fulfilling prophecy: Players dont earn enough to live, start matchfixing, sponser get driven away, players dont earn enough, start matchfixing.
When a single made up loss in a ProLeague Bo1 brings you more money then a top 4 GSL finish, something is wrong. And thats not the matchfixing, that is anyways allways wrong, but the whole system is wrong in itself. With the missing salaries you will never clean out the corruption as the whole SC II scene in korea is partly build on shady sponsors and matchfixing. Otherwise there would be players and teams missing. The scene needs either more money or drastically less players or else we will have fixed matches all over the place (like have at the moment or does anyone think the prime case was the only fixing case?)
You cant expect that you are able to exploid players for years in their best years for zero to not much money and they will not take every possible money someone holds in their face. Yes alot of players have "higher morals" and would never match fix, but a system build just on the moral of players wasting years of their youth is something that has to fail completly.
On October 22 2015 01:40 Dragnor wrote:
Afreeca is now part of the scene, It is directly connected through GSL. Can you imagine for example some big sports channel to allow Lance Armstrong to have show on their channel? No. But here, some people are trying to defend such a behaviour. I could close one eye, if they would not own GSL and were some small streaming platform, but they are not. They can not justify their action and they are committing pr suicide.
You were able to close 2 eyes about the streaming matchfixers (apperantly only one at the moment) since you know that Afreeca will host the GSL since 4th October. So why cant you do that now? Because you have been remembered that the complete scene is sick in its self and the symptom "matchfixing" is hurting the body? Or because someone needs some quick PR with "we fight matchfixing, look, we pressure AfreecaTV who has one fixer streaming with low viewer count in public!!"?
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On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote:
You were able to close 2 eyes about the streaming matchfixers (apperantly only one at the moment) since you know that Afreeca will host the GSL since 4th October. So why cant you do that now? Because you have been remembered that the complete scene is sick in its self and the symptom "matchfixing" is hurting the body? Or because someone needs some quick PR with "we fight matchfixing, look, we pressure AfreecaTV who has one fixer streaming with low viewer count in public!!"?
what? untill now I didnt even know, that they were allowed to stream on platform which runs the sport itself. Now I know, and I do not agree and think, that the company is shooting Itself in the leg. is it more clear now?
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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote:On October 22 2015 01:31 Clonester wrote:On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries? and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors? Thats a self-fulfilling prophecy: Players dont earn enough to live, start matchfixing, sponser get driven away, players dont earn enough, start matchfixing. When a single made up loss in a ProLeague Bo1 brings you more money then a top 4 GSL finish, something is wrong. And thats not the matchfixing, that is anyways allways wrong, but the whole system is wrong in itself. With the missing salaries you will never clean out the corruption as the whole SC II scene in korea is partly build on shady sponsors and matchfixing. Otherwise there would be players and teams missing. The scene needs either more money or drastically less players or else we will have fixed matches all over the place (like have at the moment or does anyone think the prime case was the only fixing case?) You cant expect that you are able to exploid players for years in their best years for zero to not much money and they will not take every possible money someone holds in their face. Yes alot of players have "higher morals" and would never match fix, but a system build just on the moral of players wasting years of their youth is something that has to fail completly.
Stop blaming everything on Kespa for the poor conditions players are in right now. Sure kespa wasn't perfect, but they are also the ones that kept many of the big name sponsors to stick around to this day. There are plenty of sources that says the only reason some of the sponsors are still supporting esports is because of Kespa. The ones that did critical damage to the scene right now are the match-fixers during BW that drove down the reputation of the scene to the point where major sponsors went away, several teams got disbanded, and had one of the biggest gaming channels at the time to close down. Whatever negligence Kespa had doesn't even come close to the level of damage these guys had on causing the scene to be at the current state.
Also, "it won't have happened if the prizes were more even" argument completely falls apart by the fact that YoDa, a former champion who managed to enjoy the money concentrated at the top, was involved in match-fixing.
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On October 22 2015 01:50 Dragnor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote:
You were able to close 2 eyes about the streaming matchfixers (apperantly only one at the moment) since you know that Afreeca will host the GSL since 4th October. So why cant you do that now? Because you have been remembered that the complete scene is sick in its self and the symptom "matchfixing" is hurting the body? Or because someone needs some quick PR with "we fight matchfixing, look, we pressure AfreecaTV who has one fixer streaming with low viewer count in public!!"?
what? untill now I didnt even know, that they were allowed to stream on platform which runs the sport itself. Now I know, and I do not agree and think, the company is shooting themselves in the leg. is it more clear now?
You know now because KeSPA made a public request. But you're right, for Afreeca itself it would probably been better to just have complied to it.
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This is getting stupid. Going out if your way to destroy people after they've paid their dues to society makes kespa look petty.
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Boycotting the GSL would hurt the sc2 scene probably more than this matchfixing scandal
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On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these.
That. People want to punish someone who has already been punished for crimes committed years ago, it's a borderline medieval measure with no basis on rationalism and goes against our modern notion of justice which Afreeca seems to be standing up for even at the cost of KESPA's and drones' ires. An inspiring, if politically unwise, move reallly.
On October 22 2015 01:59 TheWinks wrote:
This is getting stupid. Going out if your way to destroy people after they've paid their dues to society makes kespa look petty.
Ever since Wings of Liberty petty is all they look to be honest.
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On October 22 2015 01:52 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote:On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote:On October 22 2015 01:31 Clonester wrote:On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote:On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries? and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors? Thats a self-fulfilling prophecy: Players dont earn enough to live, start matchfixing, sponser get driven away, players dont earn enough, start matchfixing. When a single made up loss in a ProLeague Bo1 brings you more money then a top 4 GSL finish, something is wrong. And thats not the matchfixing, that is anyways allways wrong, but the whole system is wrong in itself. With the missing salaries you will never clean out the corruption as the whole SC II scene in korea is partly build on shady sponsors and matchfixing. Otherwise there would be players and teams missing. The scene needs either more money or drastically less players or else we will have fixed matches all over the place (like have at the moment or does anyone think the prime case was the only fixing case?) You cant expect that you are able to exploid players for years in their best years for zero to not much money and they will not take every possible money someone holds in their face. Yes alot of players have "higher morals" and would never match fix, but a system build just on the moral of players wasting years of their youth is something that has to fail completly. Stop blaming Kespa for the poor conditions players are in right now. Sure kespa wasn't perfect, but they are also the ones that kept many of the big name sponsors to stick around to this day. There are plenty of sources that says the only reason some of the sponsors are still supporting esports is because of Kespa. The ones that did critical damage to the scene right now are the match-fixers during BW that drove down the reputation of the scene to the point where major sponsors went away, several teams got disbanded, and had one of the biggest gaming channels at the time to close down. Whatever negligence Kespa had doesn't even come close to the level of damage these guys had on causing the scene to be at the current state. Also, "it won't have happened if the prizes were more even" argument completely falls apart by the fact that YoDa, a former champion who managed to enjoy the money concentrated at the top, was involved in match-fixing.
Kespa lost 2013 Woongjin and Soul, while esF lost FXO. Matchfixing was 3 years before that. You cant search every decline in SC II at the fixers of BW.
As Kespa says they want to protect the players, i shurely say they are responsible for the players situation: They let prime play a whole year in ProLeague just to get the 8th slot fill while seeing how the team has zero cash flow, zero payments, treats the players shitty and headcoach full of madness. Thats something I say kespa is to blame. The current scene of SC II is shit and yes, I blame kespa for it. Shure without the matchfixers 2010 it could look better, way better. But it could also look better with the fixing in 2010 when kespa managed the scene better. You cant be happy how the scene looks like me, but I will not blame people in desperate fights for income but I blame the system. Yes, I know fixing is a crime and they should never play in leagues and tournaments, that they should be punished. But they did not commit warcrimes, they just desperatly fighted to get something out of the gigantic timewaste that SC II was in their life. When there is too less money for so many players, kespa should just stop giving Pro-Player-Licenses to every dude out there who can play the game but protect them from themselfes. And thus means only licenses for players with a salary from a team or sponsor. All other can play amateur leagues, concetrate on education and might get drafted by a team. The scene is just to big to work at the moment.
And yes, there is a reason why law systems watch every case individual: Savior was an a whole other lvl then most other fixer and also the one and only streaming fixer. I could understand if you want him to get banned of every streaming what so ever, but a small wheel like the actually streaming matchfixer? I will never understand it.
And YoDa does not stream at all. Nor does he won soooo much, 100k $ over 4 years is lower then the average korean income and that for sacrificing youth and education which will you bring much more money in the later stages of life then 100k $. And lets be real, do you know how much Yoda earned 2015? Code S Ro16, + Code S Ro32 + Code A Ro48. Makes togeather 2482$. What a lovely income for 10 months of time wasting. And you think it is wonder when people will fix matches for 5k $ per Bo1 or even more? Dragged by their trusted head coach?
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On October 22 2015 01:40 Dragnor wrote:
Afreeca is now part of the scene, It is directly connected through GSL. Can you imagine for example some big sports channel to allow Lance Armstrong to have show on their channel? No. But here, some people are trying to defend such a behaviour. I could close one eye, if they would not own GSL and were some small streaming platform, but they are not. They can not justify their action and they are committing pr suicide. They are not doing something illegal of course, but It is morally wrong.
TV and Stream are totally different things, to not make the post long...
They are not sponsoring, advertising and forcing the "Savior gang show" it just on the same url, i would blame more people who choose to support the matchfixers they are not forcing you to donate.
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On October 22 2015 00:31 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 00:15 showstealer1829 wrote:
So let me see if I follow and correct me if I'm wrong. Because it looks like the community saying "Ban these people who tried to kill our community. If you don't we'll boycott your tournament....and kill our community" This reminds me of a gossip that Engine said; one of the match-fixer said he won't be busted, cause this scene will be collapsed if it is poped up.
The worst part is that i can think names who played strange games this year.
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So basically blackmailing.
To me, being a streamer is a very different fact than being a progamer. They match-fixed as progamers, they have to be punished as progamers and not as streamers. Once they serve their legitimate punishement, whatever that is, they should be free to be streamers. Period.
I understand that Afreeca is in a weird position, being the owner of GSL (as I understand, I am pretty out of touch with sc2), but here we are talking about Afreeca as the streaming platform, not the GSL owner.
I am commenting here even tho I don't follow sc2 because people had they exact same reactions towards match-fixers in the csgo community.
I really respect Afreeca (well I respect that move, I don't really know anything about Afreeca) for not giving up to the pressure and the bullshits.
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Lets hope Blizzard steps in so Afreeca can stop Bullshtting.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 22 2015 02:38 Starecat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 00:31 Thouhastmail wrote:On October 22 2015 00:15 showstealer1829 wrote:
So let me see if I follow and correct me if I'm wrong. Because it looks like the community saying "Ban these people who tried to kill our community. If you don't we'll boycott your tournament....and kill our community" This reminds me of a gossip that Engine said; one of the match-fixer said he won't be busted, cause this scene will be collapsed if it is poped up. The worst part is that i can think names who played strange games this year.
For example that damn son of ... sOs! Every game he plays is weird and strange!!! 
I hope he burns in victories and monies! Go sOs :-)
Stop being paranoid and just enjoy the games ,-)
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How big is Afreeca and how important are the GSL and SC2 to it?
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this is getting wild. I kinda like that. Get all the bad out in the open.
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EPT
