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On October 21 2015 21:02 Mattidute wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:27 ArvickHero wrote:
This is hilarious and I wonder how or if they will force Afreeca's hand. The way I see it Afreeca is the twitch of Korea with no comparable competitors, so they can really do whatever the hell they want. SC2 is not even that popular on their platform, so they'd have no real incentive to hang onto GSL if things go south. Losing GSL would hurt KeSPA more than Afreeca I'm pretty sure. Afreeca has alot to lose if it kills GSL, their share holders would not be so happy if Afreeca just spended alot of money on a brand name that ends up being worth nothing as no big name player is playing in it (as KeSPA will most likely not play in GSL or any other game if Afreeca starts a tournament of said game that KeSPA teams play atm if Afreeca doesn't follow their demand). Also them allowing match fixers could end up hurting the stock price due to putting the company in a bad light making those share holders even more unhappy.
Could you give me the reference when it is established that Afreeca spent a lot of money to have the GSL league? It would be crazy if they did that because SC2 is not that popular. Afreeca is in the stock market? and the stock price has been going down?
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On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
guys
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated.
The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids.
At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards.
But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes.
And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask?
The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime.
The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power.
What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways.
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On October 21 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
guys
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated.
The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids.
At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards.
But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes. And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways.
In no way, shape or form is he talking about Kespa making the request. This is a moral question if afreeca should follow the request and his answer is no.
Stop arguing a straw man.
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On October 21 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
guys
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated.
The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids.
At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards.
But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes. And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways.
Everyone is allowed to ask everyone anything, of course. Personally I don't agree with KeSPA asking this publicly, it looks to me more like pressuring; Intent to force public outcry against a company they disagree with.
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Wow the whole thing gets really dumb now that Kespa uses this situation to start another Sc2 powerstruggle. Just hope the damage they do isn't that severe like last time.
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On October 21 2015 21:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
guys
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated.
The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids.
At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards.
But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes. And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways. In no way, shape or form is he talking about Kespa making the request. This is a moral question if afreeca should follow the request and his answer is no. Stop arguing a straw man.
You are right, formally his attack is launched towards "Korea" being in uproar against the streams, not "KeSPA" making the request.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:55 FeyFey wrote:
Wow the whole thing gets really dumb now that Kespa uses this situation to start another Sc2 powerstruggle. Just hope the damage they do isn't that severe like last time.
When are people going to understand that this isn't some move made up by Kespa, but something that Korean players, casters and the community has been asking for?
If you are going to criticize the move, critize the whole scene for supporting it and don't isolate Kespa as if they are separate from the will of the community. If there's anything Kespa is praised for by the Korean community, it is how quickly they act on these incidents.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
Regardless of how anyone feels about this you really should try to ask yourselves this question because it really does boil down to it.
Is the decision to not prohibit convicted match-fixers from using their services the right thing for the future of starcraft 2 as an esport(in korea)?
personally I feel like afreeca should ban them even if they disagree with it on principle because they now run the GSL and need to attract sponsors for it and it really doesn't help them to say "well we are going to ban them from the tournament but they still can try to make money off the game through streaming on our platform if they want"(even after all the damage they did to the scene), and what about the players? if they say they don't want to play because of that, well I don't to tell you how much that sucks.
Edit: again, I'm not trying to argue punishment or sentiments, only whats the best action for sc2 as an esport.
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Surely nobody believes this is actually about sc2? It's about Hwasin and go.go.
The Korean community are the ones who watch afreeca streams. They are the ones who will allow these people to make money from streaming, not the foreign scene. Most people are merely making the point that we don't think KeSPA should be the ones making demands. I, personally, don't want these guys streaming, but from an anti-discrimination and general morality standpoint, we can't stop them from playing the game, we can stop them competing, that's enough.
For Orlok to say that he's "lost respect for foreign fans" is completely disingenuous. We're not the ones who give these people streaming careers, it's the korean scene.
The matchfixers need to be ostracized by the community, just don't watch them, it's as simple as that. Vote with your eyeballs and your wallets.
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On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated.
False analogy.
Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:33 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year.
If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL?
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On October 21 2015 22:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:33 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year. If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL?
Probably because it was totally irrelevant before whether Afreeca allowed matchfixers to stream or not. It was merely a streaming service.
However they now have the GSL and thus a responsibility to the scene. And they have come out, loudly and publicly, stating that they will accept matchfixers on their service. This is a terrible public image to take on that will only serve to drive away sponsors.
If they didn't have the GSL there wouldn't be this level of hostility to Afreeca.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:40 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:37 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 22:33 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year. If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL? Probably because it was totally irrelevant before whether Afreeca allowed matchfixers to stream or not. However they now have the GSL and thus a responsibility to the scene. And they have come out, loudly and publicly, stating that they will accept matchfixers on their service. This is a terrible public image to take on that will only serve to drive away sponsors.
Well those match fixers have never anything with SC2 though, so...? WTF?
Time will tell. But with S*L the GSL isn't that big anymore and even WCS has bigger prizepool, so it's only about former glory.
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Im not debating what's the right thing to do for fans/afreeca/kespa but what's the big deal with 2,3 ex-gamers anyway? Do they profit Afreeca thousand bucks every month? Are they the face of the company? Anyone care to watch them?
I would ban the hell out of them (read:2,3 ex-bw cheaters and 2,3 sc2 Code Bs) simply for PR sake. They can always label it as "we cooperate with KeSPA for clean esport etc etc"
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
There are better ways to make a stand then boycott the GSL. This approach hurts GSL revenue which supplements the prize pool for future GSLs which are award to players who AREN'T match fixing. You can't complain about players who are playing the game cleanly not earning enough and boycott the income that is provided for these players. It's like you want to do something right, I get that, but you ultimately hurt the wrong people. Plus, sponsors will see boycott and say not worth my time, better stay away. The best possible thing right now, is to let KESPA and police dish out the punishment and move on from this.
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Some of the posts here....
The next gsl is AT LEAST 2 months of, probably way more. By then afreeca will have given in or blizzard will have forced kespa to participate in GSL, either way 1st season of GSL will not be affected by this at all. This was obviously going to happen when Afreeca refused kespa's request.
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So let me see if I follow and correct me if I'm wrong. Because it looks like the community saying "Ban these people who tried to kill our community. If you don't we'll boycott your tournament....and kill our community"
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On October 22 2015 00:15 showstealer1829 wrote:
So let me see if I follow and correct me if I'm wrong. Because it looks like the community saying "Ban these people who tried to kill our community. If you don't we'll boycott your tournament....and kill our community"
This reminds me of a gossip that Engine said; one of the match-fixer said he won't be busted, cause this scene will be collapsed if it is poped up.
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On October 21 2015 22:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:33 -Celestial- wrote:On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote:
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads?
The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year. If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL?
This is about ANYONE who match-fixed. both former and current ones.
They've been debated this issue internally, because it has certain issues that are raised in TL.
However, as match-fixing scandle happened again, they ddecided to requst it in order to hammer all the bastards.
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On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand.
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers.
I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these.
At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them?
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