EPT... an official who has requested anonymity said "though I cannot confirm anything whether it`ll be officially postulated or not, there`re certain team and players who express their opinion about boycotting next GSL. AfreecaTV`s reputation is diminishing, cause progamers have already wounded by match-fixing once."
Possible Boycott of Afreeca TV GSL?
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
... an official who has requested anonymity said "though I cannot confirm anything whether it`ll be officially postulated or not, there`re certain team and players who express their opinion about boycotting next GSL. AfreecaTV`s reputation is diminishing, cause progamers have already wounded by match-fixing once." | ||
r_gg
141 Posts
Whether people like it or not, Kespa's request is completely in line with the sentiment of the people directly involved in the Korean scene. | ||
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sertas
Sweden887 Posts
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
 I hope Afreeca stays strong and won't accept this blackmailing. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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Brutaxilos
United States2629 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On October 21 2015 17:16 Brutaxilos wrote: This is a lot more than "Kespa's stuff". The first matchfixing scandal was a huge blow to BW. SC2 is these teams' and players' livelihood, they have every right to express their opinion as to how Afreeca should respond.I think this is a little overboard. Technically Afreeca isn't really doing anything illegal here... It's not really their responsibility to oversee Kespa's stuff. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 17:23 bduddy wrote: This is a lot more than "Kespa's stuff". The first matchfixing scandal was a huge blow to BW. SC2 is these teams' and players' livelihood, they have every right to express their opinion as to how Afreeca should respond. And Afreeca has every tight to ignore them. This boycotting stuff is a blackmailing to me. And yes, they can do it, it's their responsibility. It's hurting SC2 even more, so why not  | ||
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Orlok
Korea (South)227 Posts
Probably that sentence alone will get me a warning, but hey, this message is worth it. Please don't forget that while you foreign boys might be happy with Afreeca and free 1080p that Gom denied you, but in Korea, the PLACE WHERE THE LEAGUE IS ACTUALLY PLAYED, Afreeca is a streaming platform that is rife with problems, and doesn't have the cleanest of reputations or great public image. For me, if Afreeca wasn't going to run the GSL, I could at least understand what they have stated. Sure, it leaves a bad taste in ones mouth, but it was pragmatically understandable to say the least. However, Afreeca is no longer just a streaming site, its a host to the longest and greatest SC2 league in existance. Its taking a more active role in esports, and as such should uphold the new responsibilities that come with becoming an official esports related group. To condone people, whether in BW or SC2 who committed illegal betting sites and let them stream is giving off the message that Afreeca condones criminals who commit crimes. Sounds to grand? Hey, The brokers and players who were involved got arrested. Potential sponsors, who are the lifeblood of esports next to the players, will NOT consider to genuinely put a stake in esports if the runner of the biggest league there allows ex-criminals to continue to freely be able to stream and continue to relate themselves to the game. This is why people, myself included, dislike the fact that Afreeca so dauntingly continues to say they these people who ruined the SC scene are "free men" and should be left alone. I mean, if you see a criminal who completely ruined an industry continue to keep streaming the game and scene that HE DESTROYED, who actually would support that and say it;s within their right to do so? KeSPA does not have a good reputation when it comes to negotiation, so I can see why some dimwits who know nothing about the political aspects of esports think its just KeSPA being dicks to Afreeca. I think I'm rambling too much here. In summary, the image that these people give off after streaming the game they illegally bet on is not a positive one, and sponsors will decline to push money to create more tournaments and more infrastructure. As such, its not too much of a thing to ask these people in Afreeca to ban them from streaming. Let them play the game without an audience, its not like they deserve to stream them and enjoy the spotlight. Oh and deacon.frost from the Czech Republic? You're retarded if you think its blackmail still after what I explained to you. I bet you're one of the fools who screamed hooray after Gom said it would disband and your precious Afreeca, which you probably never even USE that often, gave you free 1080p. To all foreigners who say that Afreeca should't be blackmailed or some other nonsense, screw you and your idiocy. Don't babble about what you know nothing about. User was warned for this post | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2015 17:16 Brutaxilos wrote: I think this is a little overboard. Technically Afreeca isn't really doing anything illegal here... It's not really their responsibility to oversee Kespa's stuff. Why is it overboard? Technically Kespa isn't doing anything illegal here... It's not really their responsibility if an afreeca tournament can't find attractive players. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
PRIME clan disbands - officially. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers. I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. | ||
digmouse
China6329 Posts
On October 21 2015 16:50 Thouhastmail wrote: ...and maybe I should refrain from posting new threads too often. sorry guys. It is completely ok, these are new information and are important, we respect and thank your efforts. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8649 Posts
i feel a lot of foreign people, members of tl included, have been too ungrateful with what theyve received. i spoke about this in the gun thread too about how people nowadays dont know how to appreciate what they have; instead they have the audacity to ask for more. meanwhile the people directly affected by all these scandals and the local community are pretty unanimous in that kespa has got everything right regarding how action should be taken against match fixers, and afreeca is just dragging their already shit reputation through the mud. seems like a lot of foreign fans (not all, but evidently a lot) just want to watch their favourite players' streams regardless of the crime they committed without thought for what their actions are doing to the industry. its like a child crying and asking for his toy back because his mum is threatening to take it away. | ||
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r_gg
141 Posts
On October 21 2015 17:45 Orlok wrote: I've lost respect for foreign fans about SC2. Probably that sentence alone will get me a warning, but hey, this message is worth it. Please don't forget that while you foreign boys might be happy with Afreeca and free 1080p that Gom denied you, but in Korea, the PLACE WHERE THE LEAGUE IS ACTUALLY PLAYED, Afreeca is a streaming platform that is rife with problems, and doesn't have the cleanest of reputations or great public image. For me, if Afreeca wasn't going to run the GSL, I could at least understand what they have stated. Sure, it leaves a bad taste in ones mouth, but it was pragmatically understandable to say the least. However, Afreeca is no longer just a streaming site, its a host to the longest and greatest SC2 league in existance. Its taking a more active role in esports, and as such should uphold the new responsibilities that come with becoming an official esports related group. To condone people, whether in BW or SC2 who committed illegal betting sites and let them stream is giving off the message that Afreeca condones criminals who commit crimes. Sounds to grand? Hey, The brokers and players who were involved got arrested. Potential sponsors, who are the lifeblood of esports next to the players, will NOT consider to genuinely put a stake in esports if the runner of the biggest league there allows ex-criminals to continue to freely be able to stream and continue to relate themselves to the game. This is why people, myself included, dislike the fact that Afreeca so dauntingly continues to say they these people who ruined the SC scene are "free men" and should be left alone. I mean, if you see a criminal who completely ruined an industry continue to keep streaming the game and scene that HE DESTROYED, who actually would support that and say it;s within their right to do so? KeSPA does not have a good reputation when it comes to negotiation, so I can see why some dimwits who know nothing about the political aspects of esports think its just KeSPA being dicks to Afreeca. I think I'm rambling too much here. In summary, the image that these people give off after streaming the game they illegally bet on is not a positive one, and sponsors will decline to push money to create more tournaments and more infrastructure. As such, its not too much of a thing to ask these people in Afreeca to ban them from streaming. Let them play the game without an audience, its not like they deserve to stream them and enjoy the spotlight. Oh and deacon.frost from the Czech Republic? You're retarded if you think its blackmail still after what I explained to you. I bet you're one of the fools who screamed hooray after Gom said it would disband and your precious Afreeca, which you probably never even USE that often, gave you free 1080p. To all foreigners who say that Afreeca should't be blackmailed or some other nonsense, screw you and your idiocy. Don't babble about what you know nothing about. Thank you saying pretty much everything I wanted to say. | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:12 BLinD-RawR wrote: afreeca should just comply with KeSPA's demands if only to just protect their brand. this is getting absolutely ridiculous, people barely watch those who matchfixed and there are not that many of them to begin with, its not like afreeca is making any money off of them either, whichever way you look at it they are better off banning matchfixers. I guess in this case I'm glad that Afreeca aren't the ones running the VANT Starleague. I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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TJ31
630 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: seems like a lot of foreign fans (not all, but evidently a lot) just want to watch their favourite players' streams regardless of the crime they committed without thought for what their actions are doing to the industry. its like a child crying and asking for his toy back because his mum is threatening to take it away. And I believe it's normal. There's not that many "hardcore" esports enthusiasts around. Most just consider it as a good way to waste free time while they find it fun enough, then they move on to something else. And while I personally don't care enough simply because I almost don't follow SC anymore, I'm happy someone finally gave Kespa middle finger. They are relic of the past and their ways always were terrible in my opinion and this time it shows up again. Not saying that the afreeca is much better, but at least they don't try to dictate their rules to other companies, as far as I know at least. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: i definitely agree with orlok i feel a lot of foreign people, members of tl included, have been too ungrateful with what theyve received. i spoke about this in the gun thread too about how people nowadays dont know how to appreciate what they have; instead they have the audacity to ask for more. meanwhile the people directly affected by all these scandals and the local community are pretty unanimous in that kespa has got everything right regarding how action should be taken against match fixers, and afreeca is just dragging their already shit reputation through the mud. seems like a lot of foreign fans (not all, but evidently a lot) just want to watch their favourite players' streams regardless of the crime they committed without thought for what their actions are doing to the industry. its like a child crying and asking for his toy back because his mum is threatening to take it away. I don't understand why not? Their crime is properly punished. Whether we watch their stream or not should be not enforced by anyone other than the viewers ourselves. We are not watching them stream crime anyway. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote: I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. You're right in saying that KeSPA doesn't have the right to force afreeca into doing anything, and clearly afreeca knows that, and afreeca's reasoning behind declining their request is also extremely valid, but the BIG PROBLEM here is that Afreeca is not just a platform anymore, they are the people who are running the GSL, its now their tournament which means that they have to attract sponsors to back the GSL and how do you expect any sponsor to back the GSL when afreeca has no qualms about allowing the very people who have ruined the reputation of the Esport that they are supporting use their platform. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8649 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:49 ETisME wrote: I don't understand why not? Their crime is properly punished. Whether we watch their stream or not should be not enforced by anyone other than the viewers ourselves. We are not watching them stream crime anyway. because their crime exceeds past simple match throwing and gambling. their actions directly affect the sustainability of a whole industry. thats millions of dollars invested from multiple businesses, hundreds of jobs and in koreas case, a huge hit to its unique culture, a hit to the tourism industry, and probably another list of things i cant think of off the top of my head right now this isnt just about getting revenge on people who threw matches. its about protecting the livelihood of so many people who are reliant on the industry to feed themselves. why do people not understand this? the match fixing scandals arent just scandals because they are illegal. the gravity of these actions are so god damn massive that there are literally lives at stake as long as there is incentive for match fixing to occur, the industry wont survive. one or two more scandals and you will see major sponsors pull out once again and we will have a repeat of brood war. thats why kespa is pulling this move, because if they succeed they massively reduce the incentive to match fix. you let everyone know that if they try and get caught, they wont be eating breakfast unless they get a job in a completely different field, which for most of these players is practically impossible On October 21 2015 18:38 TJ31 wrote: And I believe it's normal. There's not that many "hardcore" esports enthusiasts around. Most just consider it as a good way to waste free time while they find it fun enough, then they move on to something else. And while I personally don't care enough simply because I almost don't follow SC anymore, I'm happy someone finally gave Kespa middle finger. They are relic of the past and their ways always were terrible in my opinion and this time it shows up again. Not saying that the afreeca is much better, but at least they don't try to dictate their rules to other companies, as far as I know at least. this post just backs everything i said about how some fans are just straight up selfish and ignorant. "who cares about the people who actually make a living off this industry, i dont give a shit what happens as long as i have some entertainment during my 30mins free time" | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:57 BLinD-RawR wrote: You're right in saying that KeSPA doesn't have the right to force afreeca into doing anything, and clearly afreeca knows that, and afreeca's reasoning behind declining their request is also extremely valid, but the BIG PROBLEM here is that Afreeca is not just a platform anymore, they are the people who are running the GSL, its now their tournament which means that they have to attract sponsors to back the GSL and how do you expect any sponsor to back the GSL when afreeca has no qualms about allowing the very people who have ruined the reputation of the Esport that they are supporting use their platform. I agree that acquiring GSL has put Afreeca in a very difficult spot and I would understand if they did ban the matchfixers but I'd rather have them not because banning them now, after having been allowed to stream for so long would mean the'd get punished again for a crime now committed by others. Enough is enough. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
about the new matchfixers is not like many people give a f*ck about them... and u can be pretty sure in the moment they will try to stream the viewers will give lot of sh*t to them. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: because their crime exceeds past simple match throwing and gambling. their actions directly affect the sustainability of a whole industry. thats millions of dollars invested from multiple businesses, hundreds of jobs and in koreas case, a huge hit to its unique culture, a hit to the tourism industry, and probably another list of things i cant think of off the top of my head right now this isnt just about getting revenge on people who threw matches. its about protecting the livelihood of so many people who are reliant on the industry to feed themselves. why do people not understand this? the match fixing scandals arent just scandals because they are illegal. the gravity of these actions are so god damn massive that there are literally lives at stake as long as there is incentive for match fixing to occur, the industry wont survive. one or two more scandals and you will see major sponsors pull out once again and we will have a repeat of brood war. thats why kespa is pulling this move, because if they succeed they massively reduce the incentive to match fix. you let everyone know that if they try and get caught, they wont be eating breakfast unless they get a job in a completely different field, which for most of these players is practically impossible this post just backs everything i said about how some fans are just straight up selfish and ignorant. "who cares about the people who actually make a living off this industry, i dont give a shit what happens as long as i have some entertainment during my 30mins free time" I don't see how that is related to streaming at all. Firstly, you are acting as if the consequences of the crime are not punished and you would rather to have more. Secondly, it is not like they have to use Afreeca to stream if they wanted to. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:06 Penev wrote: I agree that acquiring GSL has put Afreeca in a very difficult spot and I would understand if they did ban the matchfixers but I'd rather have them not because banning them now, after having been allowed to stream for so long would mean the'd get punished again for a crime now committed by others. Enough is enough. they barely stream anyway, its not really punishing them anymore, in fact all of them have either quit or abandoned their accounts anyway. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: because their crime exceeds past simple match throwing and gambling. their actions directly affect the sustainability of a whole industry. thats millions of dollars invested from multiple businesses, hundreds of jobs and in koreas case, a huge hit to its unique culture, a hit to the tourism industry, and probably another list of things i cant think of off the top of my head right now this isnt just about getting revenge on people who threw matches. its about protecting the livelihood of so many people who are reliant on the industry to feed themselves. why do people not understand this? the match fixing scandals arent just scandals because they are illegal. the gravity of these actions are so god damn massive that there are literally lives at stake as long as there is incentive for match fixing to occur, the industry wont survive. one or two more scandals and you will see major sponsors pull out once again and we will have a repeat of brood war. thats why kespa is pulling this move, because if they succeed they massively reduce the incentive to match fix. you let everyone know that if they try and get caught, they wont be eating breakfast unless they get a job in a completely different field, which for most of these players is practically impossible this post just backs everything i said about how some fans are just straight up selfish and ignorant. "who cares about the people who actually make a living off this industry, i dont give a shit what happens as long as i have some entertainment during my 30mins free time" Don't be absurd. The ability to continue streaming on afreeca is not an incentive to matchfix. Players aren't being asked to matchfix and going 'oh gee I don't know, will I be able to stream on afreeca if I get caught?' The people responsible are going to jail and serving their sentences, if the sentence doesn't fit the crime that is the problem of the judicial system NOT afreeca. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8649 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: must be a cultural thing,or the people posting are just 13.yo,orlok calling criminals a bunch of kids that just follow the order of his head coach that is the one taking care of them is just retarded,kespa asking to ban 2010 matchfixers from afreeca is retarded,and is just looking for conflict,is pretty clear,now. in the first place kespa doesnt allow their players to stream on afreeca right ? so afterall they are just b*tching... lol every time i see you post on a thread related to this your posts have reeked of ignorance the match fixers arent children, theyre goddamn adults. they made a decision for themselves or are you saying that if someone mugged someone because you told them to, they wouldnt be a criminal either? as for kespas asking for the bans, well i think ive said enough on this on numerous threads already On October 21 2015 19:11 xccam wrote: Don't be absurd. The ability to continue streaming on afreeca is not an incentive to matchfix. Players aren't being asked to matchfix and going 'oh gee I don't know, will I be able to stream on afreeca if I get caught?' The people responsible are going to jail and serving their sentences, if the sentence doesn't fit the crime that is the problem of the judicial system NOT afreeca. yeah there is a problem with the judicial system, however it is either too late to fix or its too troublesome to fix. did savior serve any time in jail? no did hwasin serve any time in jail? no did anyone else from the first scandal serve time in jail? no NONE OF THEM got jail time what makes you think a court is going to rule for actual jail time on this occasion when the defendants' lawyers are going to be looking at savior and hwasin's case for precedent and ask for suspended sentences. the court fucked up by giving such lenient sentences the very first time this happened. they could break precedent this time but i doubt it will happen. so what happens when everyone involved this time gets suspended sentences again? oh look theyre streaming on afreeca if the above does happen, then you can bet in the back of a lot of peoples' minds they will be thinking that match fixing does not have a severe punishment which leads to people once again being tempted into throwing games later on. people wont think "oh gee I don't know, will I be able to stream on afreeca if I get caught?", its gonna be "will i be able to have a normal life even if i get caught? i guess i could still make money on afreeca...." | ||
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TJ31
630 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: this post just backs everything i said about how some fans are just straight up selfish and ignorant. "who cares about the people who actually make a living off this industry, i dont give a shit what happens as long as i have some entertainment during my 30mins free time" People use a lot of industries and their products all the time. Food, cars, all kinds of entertainment (music, TV, movies, games, web related services and such), transport and such. For instance there's often some strikes for all kinds of the airlines. Should people who just want to fly somewhere "care about the industry" because of that? So yeah, don't expect your typical consumer to care enough, especially about something like this. Besides, as said in many other threads, enough is enough. They are banned for life from being pro gamers, streaming SC or any other game has nothing to do with it anymore. But no, Kespa need blood, literally North Korea style. Also streaming, even if it's the same game, /=/ same industry as progaming. They just share the same game, that's all. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8649 Posts
im not even gonna get into why streaming does have something to do with it anymore lol. ive said enough on this topic | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:10 BLinD-RawR wrote: they barely stream anyway, its not really punishing them anymore, in fact all of them have either quit or abandoned their accounts anyway. It's about the principle. Anyway, let's just wait if Afreeca can organize a properly sponsored GSL, if they cannot and they think it's because the matchfixers my guess is they ban them still. Would be difficult to explain to the public though. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:19 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont expect everyone to care, but at the very least if you dont care and you are ignorant about how much a scandal like this affects the industry, you shouldnt be quick to flame kespa and take sides. im not even gonna get into why streaming does have something to do with it anymore lol. ive said enough on this topic It's not even about how much it affects the industry, everyone knows it damages the credibility. But the scandal is not CHEATERS streaming on X platform, the scandal is CHEATING in match. Cheaters streaming at worst they can do is just to getting view bots. How damaging is it? It's not like every other streamers cannot do this already, | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:23 ETisME wrote: It's not even about how much it affects the industry, everyone knows it damages the credibility. But the scandal is not CHEATERS streaming on X platform, the scandal is CHEATING in match. Cheaters streaming at worst they can do is just to getting view bots. How damaging is it? It's not like every other streamers cannot do this already, Nah mate, you clearly don't understand that everyone who ever cheated once in his/her life must be hanged with his/her own intestines on the public square. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6209 Posts
On October 21 2015 19:12 evilfatsh1t wrote: lol every time i see you post on a thread related to this your posts have reeked of ignorance the match fixers arent children, theyre goddamn adults. they made a decision for themselves or are you saying that if someone mugged someone because you told them to, they wouldnt be a criminal either? as for kespas asking for the bans, well i think ive said enough on this on numerous threads already yeah there is a problem with the judicial system, however it is either too late to fix or its too troublesome to fix. did savior serve any time in jail? no did hwasin serve any time in jail? no did anyone else from the first scandal serve time in jail? no NONE OF THEM got jail time what makes you think a court is going to rule for actual jail time on this occasion when the defendants' lawyers are going to be looking at savior and hwasin's case for precedent and ask for suspended sentences. the court fucked up by giving such lenient sentences the very first time this happened. they could break precedent this time but i doubt it will happen. so what happens when everyone involved this time gets suspended sentences again? oh look theyre streaming on afreeca if the above does happen, then you can bet in the back of a lot of peoples' minds they will be thinking that match fixing does not have a severe punishment which leads to people once again being tempted into throwing games later on. people wont think "oh gee I don't know, will I be able to stream on afreeca if I get caught?", its gonna be "will i be able to have a normal life even if i get caught? i guess i could still make money on afreeca...." The courts will decide what punishment is fair or not for them. No need to take justice into our own hand and do even more. That's not how our system is supposed to work. Matchfixing is also something that happens in any sport and being banned from streaming is hardly going to change anything in regards to that. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15957 Posts
This is really going to far, there are banned for life from the thing where they cheated in there is no point in banning them from other aspects of life. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Thus this will help more to prevent matchfixing then anything kespa did this year against it as it brings money to players who do not earn much at the moment for their time and youth invested. Kespa allways says, they have the responsibility to protect "their players", for example as they did not send players to the "Destiny One" tournament, this was their argument, protect the players from "shady organisations". But this year we saw how kespa failed extremly with protecting their players and how much they really care about them: They watched the whole year how players have been not payed by the organisation prime, they watched how prime organisation became more desperate in the hunt for sponsors and money and how their Headcoach dragged their non payed players into matchfixing. Kespa has never failed in their history more then this year with their player protection. And now this organisation shouts out for Streaming-websites to turn off streams from matchfixer who fixed, got caught and got punished over 4 years ago? Why now? Why not 2 weeks earlier? 2 years? Because they want to show "we do something". But they literally do nothing. They watched how their league, the ProLeague gets more and more entangled with corruption and how more and more matchfixing became a part of it but instead of reacting, taking measures against it, they just did nothing. Yeah, they tried to clean out the corruption, to cure the sympton of a greater illness, but even here they could not cure everything, but only parts of the sympton. And with their hunt after ex-matchfixer, who stream, they showed how much they try to fight the downgoing reputation of the scene, but not what makes the scene losing the reputation. These matchfixer from 4 years ago arent the problem at all, even they would attract 10.000s of viewers (which they dont do). They got caught, banned from all pro-events and a civil court as judged over them. Now, 4 years later, companys and organisations and certan parts of the scene want to judge over them again, ban them from touching the game on streams, just because the sickness of the system ProLeague became obvious again. Thats not okay and I am glad that Afreeca turned that call from kespa down. And when people say "lifetime ban from everything SC related on the internet for ever", they just should watch 2018 Pyeongchang in SK: What will happen there? Hundrets of "ex-dopers" will be allowed to play there after they had penaltys over 1-2 years from all over the world and SK will be super happy to show them and get a good reputation from holding that event. Or just remember the "hero" Park Tae-Hwan. He got caught doping and winning olympics and just got a 18 month penalty. And SK wanted to send him to Rio (but he ist allowed to start for SK the next 3 years at least, theoretically he could start 2020 in tokio). Where is your lifetime ban for him? Is doping less heavy then match fixing? He betrayed. And he is not the only one from SK who got caught doping and got a just a small penalty. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads? The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids. At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards. But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes. | ||
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Mattidute
Netherlands232 Posts
On October 21 2015 20:27 ArvickHero wrote: This is hilarious and I wonder how or if they will force Afreeca's hand. The way I see it Afreeca is the twitch of Korea with no comparable competitors, so they can really do whatever the hell they want. SC2 is not even that popular on their platform, so they'd have no real incentive to hang onto GSL if things go south. Losing GSL would hurt KeSPA more than Afreeca I'm pretty sure. Afreeca has alot to lose if it kills GSL, their share holders would not be so happy if Afreeca just spended alot of money on a brand name that ends up being worth nothing as no big name player is playing in it (as KeSPA will most likely not play in GSL or any other game if Afreeca starts a tournament of said game that KeSPA teams play atm if Afreeca doesn't follow their demand). Also them allowing match fixers could end up hurting the stock price due to putting the company in a bad light making those share holders even more unhappy. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:02 Mattidute wrote: Afreeca has alot to lose if it kills GSL, their share holders would not be so happy if Afreeca just spended alot of money on a brand name that ends up being worth nothing as no big name player is playing in it (as KeSPA will most likely not play in GSL or any other game if Afreeca starts a tournament of said game that KeSPA teams play atm if Afreeca doesn't follow their demand). Also them allowing match fixers could end up hurting the stock price due to putting the company in a bad light making those share holders even more unhappy. Could you give me the reference when it is established that Afreeca spent a lot of money to have the GSL league? It would be crazy if they did that because SC2 is not that popular. Afreeca is in the stock market? and the stock price has been going down? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote: guys if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads? The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. The youtube comments and chat might be a cesspool of hate and accusation, but he would be allowed to upload vids. At the end of the day committing a crime doesn't strip your freedom of speech. Korea has a very insular view, for korea by korea, do as korea does without heed of the world that is watching. We are in a globalized society where culture and tradition matter less than international standards. But of course, Koreans won't see it that way, as evidenced by the crazy aggressive quotes. And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:38 Big J wrote: And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways. In no way, shape or form is he talking about Kespa making the request. This is a moral question if afreeca should follow the request and his answer is no. Stop arguing a straw man. | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:38 Big J wrote: And if the World Doping Agency wanted youtube to take the videos down, would they be allowed to ask? The answer is yes, they would, because asking somebody to do something is still not a crime. The youtube answer might be no, but they would be allowed to ask and they would be allowed to do whatever is in their power to boycott youtube content. Because it's in their power. What's so stupid about opinions like yours is that on the one hand you defend that banned players (or in other cases smae thing has been voiced about afreeca) has every right to do whatever they want to within their power, but on the other hand KeSPA for some reason gets critizised for doing the exact same thing as if they were abusing their power. They are not. They are using their power in legitimate ways. Everyone is allowed to ask everyone anything, of course. Personally I don't agree with KeSPA asking this publicly, it looks to me more like pressuring; Intent to force public outcry against a company they disagree with. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:44 The_Red_Viper wrote: In no way, shape or form is he talking about Kespa making the request. This is a moral question if afreeca should follow the request and his answer is no. Stop arguing a straw man. You are right, formally his attack is launched towards "Korea" being in uproar against the streams, not "KeSPA" making the request. | ||
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r_gg
141 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:55 FeyFey wrote: Wow the whole thing gets really dumb now that Kespa uses this situation to start another Sc2 powerstruggle. Just hope the damage they do isn't that severe like last time. When are people going to understand that this isn't some move made up by Kespa, but something that Korean players, casters and the community has been asking for? If you are going to criticize the move, critize the whole scene for supporting it and don't isolate Kespa as if they are separate from the will of the community. If there's anything Kespa is praised for by the Korean community, it is how quickly they act on these incidents. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Is the decision to not prohibit convicted match-fixers from using their services the right thing for the future of starcraft 2 as an esport(in korea)? personally I feel like afreeca should ban them even if they disagree with it on principle because they now run the GSL and need to attract sponsors for it and it really doesn't help them to say "well we are going to ban them from the tournament but they still can try to make money off the game through streaming on our platform if they want"(even after all the damage they did to the scene), and what about the players? if they say they don't want to play because of that, well I don't to tell you how much that sucks. Edit: again, I'm not trying to argue punishment or sentiments, only whats the best action for sc2 as an esport. | ||
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RewardedFool
17 Posts
The Korean community are the ones who watch afreeca streams. They are the ones who will allow these people to make money from streaming, not the foreign scene. Most people are merely making the point that we don't think KeSPA should be the ones making demands. I, personally, don't want these guys streaming, but from an anti-discrimination and general morality standpoint, we can't stop them from playing the game, we can stop them competing, that's enough. For Orlok to say that he's "lost respect for foreign fans" is completely disingenuous. We're not the ones who give these people streaming careers, it's the korean scene. The matchfixers need to be ostracized by the community, just don't watch them, it's as simple as that. Vote with your eyeballs and your wallets. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 21 2015 20:41 darkscream wrote: if lance armstrong wanted to post youtube videos of him riding a bicycle, would he be allowed to monetize it with google ads? The answer is yes, he would, because broadcasting video has nothing to do with the tournaments he cheated. False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:33 -Celestial- wrote: False analogy. Youtube is not running the Tour de France. Afreeca IS running the GSL as of next year. If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:37 deacon.frost wrote: If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL? Probably because it was totally irrelevant before whether Afreeca allowed matchfixers to stream or not. It was merely a streaming service. However they now have the GSL and thus a responsibility to the scene. And they have come out, loudly and publicly, stating that they will accept matchfixers on their service. This is a terrible public image to take on that will only serve to drive away sponsors. If they didn't have the GSL there wouldn't be this level of hostility to Afreeca. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:40 -Celestial- wrote: Probably because it was totally irrelevant before whether Afreeca allowed matchfixers to stream or not. However they now have the GSL and thus a responsibility to the scene. And they have come out, loudly and publicly, stating that they will accept matchfixers on their service. This is a terrible public image to take on that will only serve to drive away sponsors. Well those match fixers have never anything with SC2 though, so...? WTF? Time will tell. But with S*L the GSL isn't that big anymore and even WCS has bigger prizepool, so it's only about former glory. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
I would ban the hell out of them (read:2,3 ex-bw cheaters and 2,3 sc2 Code Bs) simply for PR sake. They can always label it as "we cooperate with KeSPA for clean esport etc etc" | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3682 Posts
The next gsl is AT LEAST 2 months of, probably way more. By then afreeca will have given in or blizzard will have forced kespa to participate in GSL, either way 1st season of GSL will not be affected by this at all. This was obviously going to happen when Afreeca refused kespa's request. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
On October 22 2015 00:15 showstealer1829 wrote: So let me see if I follow and correct me if I'm wrong. Because it looks like the community saying "Ban these people who tried to kill our community. If you don't we'll boycott your tournament....and kill our community" This reminds me of a gossip that Engine said; one of the match-fixer said he won't be busted, cause this scene will be collapsed if it is poped up. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:37 deacon.frost wrote: If I get this correctly it is about the former match fixers, not the current ones. So why is KeSPA asking now publicly if they could have asked before? Because now they have the power to not send players and ruin GSL? This is about ANYONE who match-fixed. both former and current ones. They've been debated this issue internally, because it has certain issues that are raised in TL. However, as match-fixing scandle happened again, they ddecided to requst it in order to hammer all the bastards. | ||
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OrangeGarage
Korea (South)319 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote: I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote: At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? It doesn't benefit them at all, when caught. They're just not prohibited from all activities in their lives. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:24 RCCar wrote: At this point for Kespa, its less about players making money(Prob not gonna get many views anyway) but more about sending a message to everyone in this scene: we are willing to all stand together against matchfixing and send out the message that there will be no sympathy for players involved in illegal actvities. What's to stop low performing players to matchfix if it actually benefits them? Salaries? | ||
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r_gg
141 Posts
and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors? | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote: and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors? The sponsors are (were) driven away by the matchfixing scandal itself. This public request from KeSPA to Afreeca is doing more harm in that regard I bet than the streaming matchfixers were before it. | ||
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Dragnor
10 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:33 r_gg wrote: and where are you going to get those salaries from when incidents like these drive away sponsors? Thats a self-fulfilling prophecy: Players dont earn enough to live, start matchfixing, sponser get driven away, players dont earn enough, start matchfixing. When a single made up loss in a ProLeague Bo1 brings you more money then a top 4 GSL finish, something is wrong. And thats not the matchfixing, that is anyways allways wrong, but the whole system is wrong in itself. With the missing salaries you will never clean out the corruption as the whole SC II scene in korea is partly build on shady sponsors and matchfixing. Otherwise there would be players and teams missing. The scene needs either more money or drastically less players or else we will have fixed matches all over the place (like have at the moment or does anyone think the prime case was the only fixing case?) You cant expect that you are able to exploid players for years in their best years for zero to not much money and they will not take every possible money someone holds in their face. Yes alot of players have "higher morals" and would never match fix, but a system build just on the moral of players wasting years of their youth is something that has to fail completly. On October 22 2015 01:40 Dragnor wrote: Afreeca is now part of the scene, It is directly connected through GSL. Can you imagine for example some big sports channel to allow Lance Armstrong to have show on their channel? No. But here, some people are trying to defend such a behaviour. I could close one eye, if they would not own GSL and were some small streaming platform, but they are not. They can not justify their action and they are committing pr suicide. You were able to close 2 eyes about the streaming matchfixers (apperantly only one at the moment) since you know that Afreeca will host the GSL since 4th October. So why cant you do that now? Because you have been remembered that the complete scene is sick in its self and the symptom "matchfixing" is hurting the body? Or because someone needs some quick PR with "we fight matchfixing, look, we pressure AfreecaTV who has one fixer streaming with low viewer count in public!!"? | ||
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Dragnor
10 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote: You were able to close 2 eyes about the streaming matchfixers (apperantly only one at the moment) since you know that Afreeca will host the GSL since 4th October. So why cant you do that now? Because you have been remembered that the complete scene is sick in its self and the symptom "matchfixing" is hurting the body? Or because someone needs some quick PR with "we fight matchfixing, look, we pressure AfreecaTV who has one fixer streaming with low viewer count in public!!"? what? untill now I didnt even know, that they were allowed to stream on platform which runs the sport itself. Now I know, and I do not agree and think, that the company is shooting Itself in the leg. is it more clear now? | ||
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r_gg
141 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:41 Clonester wrote: Thats a self-fulfilling prophecy: Players dont earn enough to live, start matchfixing, sponser get driven away, players dont earn enough, start matchfixing. When a single made up loss in a ProLeague Bo1 brings you more money then a top 4 GSL finish, something is wrong. And thats not the matchfixing, that is anyways allways wrong, but the whole system is wrong in itself. With the missing salaries you will never clean out the corruption as the whole SC II scene in korea is partly build on shady sponsors and matchfixing. Otherwise there would be players and teams missing. The scene needs either more money or drastically less players or else we will have fixed matches all over the place (like have at the moment or does anyone think the prime case was the only fixing case?) You cant expect that you are able to exploid players for years in their best years for zero to not much money and they will not take every possible money someone holds in their face. Yes alot of players have "higher morals" and would never match fix, but a system build just on the moral of players wasting years of their youth is something that has to fail completly. Stop blaming everything on Kespa for the poor conditions players are in right now. Sure kespa wasn't perfect, but they are also the ones that kept many of the big name sponsors to stick around to this day. There are plenty of sources that says the only reason some of the sponsors are still supporting esports is because of Kespa. The ones that did critical damage to the scene right now are the match-fixers during BW that drove down the reputation of the scene to the point where major sponsors went away, several teams got disbanded, and had one of the biggest gaming channels at the time to close down. Whatever negligence Kespa had doesn't even come close to the level of damage these guys had on causing the scene to be at the current state. Also, "it won't have happened if the prizes were more even" argument completely falls apart by the fact that YoDa, a former champion who managed to enjoy the money concentrated at the top, was involved in match-fixing. | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:50 Dragnor wrote: what? untill now I didnt even know, that they were allowed to stream on platform which runs the sport itself. Now I know, and I do not agree and think, the company is shooting themselves in the leg. is it more clear now? You know now because KeSPA made a public request. But you're right, for Afreeca itself it would probably been better to just have complied to it. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15957 Posts
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Auronz
Brazil119 Posts
On October 21 2015 18:27 Penev wrote: I disagree. In general, I don't think it's a good thing when one organization can force another to act as they want them to. In this case, on top of that, you can't punish people, convicted in the past, for a more recent crime committed by others. People are always so willing to add to the punishment criminals are already getting. Edit: I'd also like to add the following: Banning these people won't do anything against matchfixing. NOTHING. Please people, be more critical about false safety measures like these. That. People want to punish someone who has already been punished for crimes committed years ago, it's a borderline medieval measure with no basis on rationalism and goes against our modern notion of justice which Afreeca seems to be standing up for even at the cost of KESPA's and drones' ires. An inspiring, if politically unwise, move reallly. On October 22 2015 01:59 TheWinks wrote: This is getting stupid. Going out if your way to destroy people after they've paid their dues to society makes kespa look petty. Ever since Wings of Liberty petty is all they look to be honest. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:52 r_gg wrote: Stop blaming Kespa for the poor conditions players are in right now. Sure kespa wasn't perfect, but they are also the ones that kept many of the big name sponsors to stick around to this day. There are plenty of sources that says the only reason some of the sponsors are still supporting esports is because of Kespa. The ones that did critical damage to the scene right now are the match-fixers during BW that drove down the reputation of the scene to the point where major sponsors went away, several teams got disbanded, and had one of the biggest gaming channels at the time to close down. Whatever negligence Kespa had doesn't even come close to the level of damage these guys had on causing the scene to be at the current state. Also, "it won't have happened if the prizes were more even" argument completely falls apart by the fact that YoDa, a former champion who managed to enjoy the money concentrated at the top, was involved in match-fixing. Kespa lost 2013 Woongjin and Soul, while esF lost FXO. Matchfixing was 3 years before that. You cant search every decline in SC II at the fixers of BW. As Kespa says they want to protect the players, i shurely say they are responsible for the players situation: They let prime play a whole year in ProLeague just to get the 8th slot fill while seeing how the team has zero cash flow, zero payments, treats the players shitty and headcoach full of madness. Thats something I say kespa is to blame. The current scene of SC II is shit and yes, I blame kespa for it. Shure without the matchfixers 2010 it could look better, way better. But it could also look better with the fixing in 2010 when kespa managed the scene better. You cant be happy how the scene looks like me, but I will not blame people in desperate fights for income but I blame the system. Yes, I know fixing is a crime and they should never play in leagues and tournaments, that they should be punished. But they did not commit warcrimes, they just desperatly fighted to get something out of the gigantic timewaste that SC II was in their life. When there is too less money for so many players, kespa should just stop giving Pro-Player-Licenses to every dude out there who can play the game but protect them from themselfes. And thus means only licenses for players with a salary from a team or sponsor. All other can play amateur leagues, concetrate on education and might get drafted by a team. The scene is just to big to work at the moment. And yes, there is a reason why law systems watch every case individual: Savior was an a whole other lvl then most other fixer and also the one and only streaming fixer. I could understand if you want him to get banned of every streaming what so ever, but a small wheel like the actually streaming matchfixer? I will never understand it. And YoDa does not stream at all. Nor does he won soooo much, 100k $ over 4 years is lower then the average korean income and that for sacrificing youth and education which will you bring much more money in the later stages of life then 100k $. And lets be real, do you know how much Yoda earned 2015? Code S Ro16, + Code S Ro32 + Code A Ro48. Makes togeather 2482$. What a lovely income for 10 months of time wasting. And you think it is wonder when people will fix matches for 5k $ per Bo1 or even more? Dragged by their trusted head coach? | ||
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Starecat
937 Posts
On October 22 2015 01:40 Dragnor wrote: Afreeca is now part of the scene, It is directly connected through GSL. Can you imagine for example some big sports channel to allow Lance Armstrong to have show on their channel? No. But here, some people are trying to defend such a behaviour. I could close one eye, if they would not own GSL and were some small streaming platform, but they are not. They can not justify their action and they are committing pr suicide. They are not doing something illegal of course, but It is morally wrong. TV and Stream are totally different things, to not make the post long... They are not sponsoring, advertising and forcing the "Savior gang show" it just on the same url, i would blame more people who choose to support the matchfixers they are not forcing you to donate. | ||
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Starecat
937 Posts
On October 22 2015 00:31 Thouhastmail wrote: This reminds me of a gossip that Engine said; one of the match-fixer said he won't be busted, cause this scene will be collapsed if it is poped up. The worst part is that i can think names who played strange games this year. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
To me, being a streamer is a very different fact than being a progamer. They match-fixed as progamers, they have to be punished as progamers and not as streamers. Once they serve their legitimate punishement, whatever that is, they should be free to be streamers. Period. I understand that Afreeca is in a weird position, being the owner of GSL (as I understand, I am pretty out of touch with sc2), but here we are talking about Afreeca as the streaming platform, not the GSL owner. I am commenting here even tho I don't follow sc2 because people had they exact same reactions towards match-fixers in the csgo community. I really respect Afreeca (well I respect that move, I don't really know anything about Afreeca) for not giving up to the pressure and the bullshits. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 22 2015 02:38 Starecat wrote: The worst part is that i can think names who played strange games this year. For example that damn son of ... sOs! Every game he plays is weird and strange!!! I hope he burns in victories and monies! Go sOs :-)Stop being paranoid and just enjoy the games ,-) | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
On October 22 2015 03:57 Popkiller wrote: How big is Afreeca and how important are the GSL and SC2 to it? If shit really hits the fan, Blizzard could step in and make a deal with twitch directly. It'll be costly (basically paying off afreeca and then paying for the broadcast costs) but blizzard really can't let korean scene go belly up | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 22 2015 04:15 Noonius wrote: If shit really hits the fan, Blizzard could step in and make a deal with twitch directly. It'll be costly (basically paying off afreeca and then paying for the broadcast costs) but blizzard really can't let korean scene go belly up Why couldnt they? The major sells are done after this holidays. After that, Blizzard would have to plan to bring out more SC II buyable content to make money off it. So they could let the scene in korea go belly up if they want. That would be a buisness decision. | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On October 22 2015 04:17 Clonester wrote: Why couldnt they? The major sells are done after this holidays. After that, Blizzard would have to plan to bring out more SC II buyable content to make money off it. So they could let the scene in korea go belly up if they want. That would be a buisness decision. Yeah, once LotV releases, I don't see the motive for Blizzard to keep promoting SC2 eSports. Unless they keep WCS going to promote their other games, like HotS and Hearthstone, and SC2 is along for the ride. | ||
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EvilsPresley
France132 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On October 22 2015 02:43 Roggay wrote: So basically blackmailing. To me, being a streamer is a very different fact than being a progamer. They match-fixed as progamers, they have to be punished as progamers and not as streamers. Once they serve their legitimate punishement, whatever that is, they should be free to be streamers. Period. I understand that Afreeca is in a weird position, being the owner of GSL (as I understand, I am pretty out of touch with sc2), but here we are talking about Afreeca as the streaming platform, not the GSL owner. I am commenting here even tho I don't follow sc2 because people had they exact same reactions towards match-fixers in the csgo community. I really respect Afreeca (well I respect that move, I don't really know anything about Afreeca) for not giving up to the pressure and the bullshits. Blackmail is such a dirty word. It's just a show of power. I don't see why you make such a distinction between programmer/streamer. Many programmers start their careers as streamers, supplement their income through streaming, and end their careers with streaming. Not to throw out another horrible analogy, but this seems like allowing a doctor to operate a private practice after he's banned from the hospital for malpractice. Well, he's banned from his job. He served his punishment. Why not let him practice on his own? After all, his clients can make their own decision. Nopeeeeee. The same way people shouldn't be allowed to make this decision. God forbid anyone donates to the match fixers (and they will). | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On October 22 2015 04:44 TRaFFiC wrote: Blackmail is such a dirty word. It's just a show of power. I don't see why you make such a distinction between programmer/streamer. Many programmers start their careers as streamers, supplement their income through streaming, and end their careers with streaming. Not to throw out another horrible analogy, but this seems like allowing a doctor to operate a private practice after he's banned from the hospital for malpractice. Well, he's banned from his job. He served his punishment. Why not let him practice on his own? After all, his clients can make their own decision. Nopeeeeee. The same way people shouldn't be allowed to make this decision. God forbid anyone donates to the match fixers (and they will). Because a doctor who lost his job for malpractice has perhaps shown that he cannot be trusted to do medicine but a progamer who cannot be trusted to compete fairly hasn't shown that he can't stream. Are you honestly saying that there's no difference in comparing a doctor who's practice of medicine was judged to be faulty going out to practice the EXACT SAME JOB and a pro gamer doing something in which his activities have nothing to do with the crime he was accused of? The doctor could still do the same thing. The matchfixer couldn't lose a game on purpose for money. Honestly it's astounding to me. The fact that pro gamers start their careers as streamers is irrelevant. Pro gamers also start their careers as gamers. Should pro gamers who matchfix or cheat be prevented from playing games, too, since those two things are connected? Should Lance Armstrong be prevented from using a bike because there's no distinction between casually practicing a sport and competitive play? I've streamed Starcraft 2 before, I've streamed games, and I've played competitive Counter-Strike and won money many years ago. Those are two completely separate areas of life that have nothing to do with one another. If you want to articulate some sort of weird link between competitive play and streaming, you're not thinking rationally, you're just out for blood. Also you seem to have confused the words progamer with programmers. Those are different things. Like I said before, it can be argued that there may be a conflict of interest and Afreeca shouldn't run GSL, but otherwise, the idea that people should be punished in ways that are in no actual way related to their crime is absurd and it's an argument from emotion. | ||
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Broodwurst
Germany1586 Posts
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Chuddinater
Korea (South)169 Posts
On October 22 2015 02:13 Clonester wrote: Kespa lost 2013 Woongjin and Soul, while esF lost FXO. Matchfixing was 3 years before that. You cant search every decline in SC II at the fixers of BW. As Kespa says they want to protect the players, i shurely say they are responsible for the players situation: They let prime play a whole year in ProLeague just to get the 8th slot fill while seeing how the team has zero cash flow, zero payments, treats the players shitty and headcoach full of madness. Thats something I say kespa is to blame. The current scene of SC II is shit and yes, I blame kespa for it. Shure without the matchfixers 2010 it could look better, way better. But it could also look better with the fixing in 2010 when kespa managed the scene better. You cant be happy how the scene looks like me, but I will not blame people in desperate fights for income but I blame the system. Yes, I know fixing is a crime and they should never play in leagues and tournaments, that they should be punished. But they did not commit warcrimes, they just desperatly fighted to get something out of the gigantic timewaste that SC II was in their life. When there is too less money for so many players, kespa should just stop giving Pro-Player-Licenses to every dude out there who can play the game but protect them from themselfes. And thus means only licenses for players with a salary from a team or sponsor. All other can play amateur leagues, concetrate on education and might get drafted by a team. The scene is just to big to work at the moment. And yes, there is a reason why law systems watch every case individual: Savior was an a whole other lvl then most other fixer and also the one and only streaming fixer. I could understand if you want him to get banned of every streaming what so ever, but a small wheel like the actually streaming matchfixer? I will never understand it. And YoDa does not stream at all. Nor does he won soooo much, 100k $ over 4 years is lower then the average korean income and that for sacrificing youth and education which will you bring much more money in the later stages of life then 100k $. And lets be real, do you know how much Yoda earned 2015? Code S Ro16, + Code S Ro32 + Code A Ro48. Makes togeather 2482$. What a lovely income for 10 months of time wasting. And you think it is wonder when people will fix matches for 5k $ per Bo1 or even more? Dragged by their trusted head coach? Just to clear this up the reason STX and Woongjin disbanded is because the corporations went bankrupt and had to sell each division of the company away. It has nothing to do with e-Sports. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Other than Afreeca, who do Blizzard really have to partner up with? SPOTV already have their hands full with Proleague and their own Starleague, OGN noped out of the scene after the failure of WCS Korea and MBC decided that k-pop was far better to syndicate than eSports. Now if Afreeca were to allow match-fixers like YoDa, BBoongBBoong, sAviOr and others to compete in GSL, there'd be a very reasonable and justifiable shitstorm that would measure 9.7 on the Shitsterscale. But this is not eSports. This is just people streaming StarCraft for entertainment purposes, and the site's users are entitled to choose whether or not to support that player. | ||
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