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Based on the official Police investigation, only the above players have been implicated in matchfixing. There is no reason to further accuse other players and teams until we get more information. Incessant blind accusations will not be tolerated. Please read the thread and the updates before posting. As of page 54 we will be moderating against match fixing accusations for players who were not caught in this incident, including those using voided Pinnacle bets as evidence. |
On October 19 2015 19:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:55 Scarecrow wrote:On October 19 2015 19:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 19 2015 19:47 Hider wrote:I estimate the odds of MKP being drunk or on drugs or stressed out or something, to be far greater than 1 to a million. There are several flaws with this argument. Stressed out, seriosuly? Every pro player has been stressed out, but that doesn't imply he was on drugs. That's just a ridiculous arugment. And MKP has played many many pro games. Why exactly would he be stressed out here, what's special about this game? When it comes to drugs. You implicitly imply that even if he took drugs, that the probability of him not watching the minimap is 0%. That's extremely unlikely, because he could micro his units right? Those his vision wasn't that badly damaged. Secondly, if he was on drugs, his team could have used as a "valid" argument when they tried to clear him. They didn't and it just makes it alot more unlikely. Third, if he was on drugs, wouldn't his team have noticed and not send him out? And again, the whole drug argument is also just flawed because if there was a realisitc probability that players would take drugs before games and make hopeless mistakes --> We would see similar level of huge blunders. But nothing even comes close to this. meh... im not a progamer or anything but playing in fish server 15 20 games sometimes im clicking so hard that forgot to look the minimap and only noticed the bunker rush when is done and attacking my hatchery,progamers skip sleep and train many hours,something like this could happen for sure. except it never has, and you're not close to progamer level. Pro players just don't miss something for even a quarter that long, especially early game on 1 base vs 1 base. Anything over a second is a terrible reaction time at that level and what was MKP's? i saw the game,and it not was that evident as people are pointing,the problem is that he scout the base with the reaper,and progamers also miss many things.kill own units and bases.he was already cleared so why continue with this grudge...
Because I don't get how you can be in this much denial. It was ridiculously evident if you have any clue about the game. He missed a yellow dot on the minimap for like 70 seconds early game. It's not like misclicking and killing a unit (a split second mistake). Do you have any idea how many times the minimap gets checked by a progamer per minute?? Both commentators literally said "he sees it" because any pro reacts almost immediately to that shit. Any pro will look at that replay and call it a fixed game. Anyway I'm sorry to derail. I'm done. Keep living the dream he's innocent until proven the extra 0.1% guilty.
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Omfg people are still pitchforking innocent (or at least not convicted) progamers based on bad games. FFS just stop already, you're making yourself and all of TL look stupid. What you don't seem to understand is that no matter what you think, the probability you give, or any evidence you think you might have doesn't matter! You are not a governing entity and you do NOT get to convict people based on your own findings.
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On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law.
Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a lying, cheating scumbag.
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On October 19 2015 18:51 SystemXN wrote:Leifeng (the sponsor of Chinese tournament Leifeng Cup who has contact with Korean scene) revealed some facts about Prime on Chinese forum ( original post in Chinese) Gerrard never paid salaries to his players, he even prohibited players to use air-conditioner in team house during this summer (maybe to save money). Gerrard didn't care about Prime's SC2 team but paid his full attention on his LoL team. More ironically, even his LoL team cannot have five enough good computers to practice LoL, so Gerrard took iG (invictus Gaming, the Chinese pro team)'s two computers for practicing and never returned them. What's more, Gerrard took ByuN's top-class personal computer (which values about $1,200) to team house, not only never returned it, but sold it for money. It is sad to see both Gerrard and Prime as SC2 veteran come to such an shameful end.
He also said that MC once said a true progamer would never resort to this but other Koreans and himself think this is rubbish because even noobs want to win, but if all they can achieve is loss after loss, either they train until their wrist are messed up or take the dark side.
This whole situation is so depressing, I hope things will get better eventually
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To anyone who thinks this is everyone who match fixed... you're wrong, numbers and statistics don't lie and while there may have been one or two false positives, the overwhelming bulk of voided matches will if investigated thoroughly eventually be proven to have been fixed
The part I found interesting was that occasionally the brokers would sell 'fake' tips to scam investors - this definitely explains the Byul vs Terror fake line movement, the only case I can recall where the result did not fit the statistically impossible line movement out of 10 or so very likely to be fixed matches. It almost feels like someone may have tried to frame Byul, i'm pretty certain he's never match fixed.
Without directly accusing anyone, I would be shocked if at least a significant percentage of the players I have mentioned in previous threads as likely fixers are not implicated at some point in the future. There are two that I would bet my entire net worth on being guilty (both of whom were implicated in voided bet threads, a protoss and a terran who lets say made some obvious mistakes in matches), and another three I am fairly sure are, by fairly sure I mean about 90% (two former GSL champions featuring in voided bet threads and a protoss), then several maybes after that.
The only other person I was as confident was fixing as the first two I mention would be Yoda, and B4 would have been about on par with the former two GSL champs in how likely I considered them to be fixing. Even though it's not mentioned I believe there was a B4 vs Bomber game that some friends and I analysed the line movement for/match itself and we determined it was more than 99% likely to be fixed, I don't even recall the actual match that was fixed. Yoda vs Bunny was almost certainly fixed as well.
People can read between the lines if they want and figure out who i'm talking about. I mean, I hope i'm wrong and this is the extent of the scandal, but numbers don't lie, so it's not likely.
Also f Gerrard, what a scumbag, especially if he approached his players about fixing rather than the other way
Anyway, I really don't want to falsely accuse anyone, but as a professional gambler who understands numbers and line movement i'm over 99% sure that there will be more names to come eventually if the investigation is thorough enough
On the plus side even if all of the past perpetrators are caught, arrests being made will serve as a deterrent against players match fixing in the future, while we have to remain vigilant and look for it, i'm sure up and coming progamers will be less likely to match fix as a result so thats a good thing
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IF (and that is a major if) it is really only 2 players + coach, I really don't think this'll be all THAT bad for the scene (obviously this sucks). What they got paid isn't even close to what savior had to pay in fines alone and 2 players and a coach isn't even close to how many people were involved in 2010's scandal. So I really do think that the impact on the scene won't be nearly as big, I highly doubt we'll see any teams besides prime disappear. However, without reading too to much about all the other match fixing rumours that have been going around, I highly doubt that this is the full extend. I pray that it isn't as bad as 2010's scandal, sc2 finally started to do well in Korea and I would hate to see it decline again so soon. I don't even want to imagine what a full blown matchfixing scandal, one that involves players from all teams, would do to the sc2 scene in korea.
Regardless of that, daaaamn people never learn. And I don't think putting all players (including b teamers) on a 5 figure salary would 100% fix this. Of course it would help, also with koreans leaving for foreign teams to grap easy cash abroad, but getting paid to loose a game is always something attractive to less successful pro gamers. Salary is not the only thing here, unless we are talking about giving these guys as much as say a soccer players makes. They are sacrificing their education and most of their future for a shot at being the best at something. Even if you are MC and you make 500k + salary from progaming, that won't last till you are 60/70 and the kind of jobs you can get with 5-10+ years of progaming on your CV are usually pretty shitty ones well, unless you are among the lucky few that get a job within esports.
You would literally have to either increase salaries A LOT to the point where they could life their entire life with what they made as pro gamers OR implement a system where they transition into decent jobs after being a pro gamer. Right now there is no such system. They retire. They are done. Nobody looks out for them/helps them with anything.
I'm not saying that I feel sorry for Yoda/b4, they deserve to be punished very severly and I 100% believe that a life time ban is justified, kespa should probably reach out to blizzard to ensure that they also receive a life time ban for WCS as well. But matchfixing will always be a thing until being a progamer no longer means sacrificing your entire future. You can control and ban and regulate and check as much as you want, this will continue to be a thing in esports unless things change.
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On October 19 2015 20:05 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law. Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a scumbag.
That's not illegal tho, so your point is pointless..
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On October 19 2015 20:02 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 19 2015 19:55 Scarecrow wrote:On October 19 2015 19:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 19 2015 19:47 Hider wrote:I estimate the odds of MKP being drunk or on drugs or stressed out or something, to be far greater than 1 to a million. There are several flaws with this argument. Stressed out, seriosuly? Every pro player has been stressed out, but that doesn't imply he was on drugs. That's just a ridiculous arugment. And MKP has played many many pro games. Why exactly would he be stressed out here, what's special about this game? When it comes to drugs. You implicitly imply that even if he took drugs, that the probability of him not watching the minimap is 0%. That's extremely unlikely, because he could micro his units right? Those his vision wasn't that badly damaged. Secondly, if he was on drugs, his team could have used as a "valid" argument when they tried to clear him. They didn't and it just makes it alot more unlikely. Third, if he was on drugs, wouldn't his team have noticed and not send him out? And again, the whole drug argument is also just flawed because if there was a realisitc probability that players would take drugs before games and make hopeless mistakes --> We would see similar level of huge blunders. But nothing even comes close to this. meh... im not a progamer or anything but playing in fish server 15 20 games sometimes im clicking so hard that forgot to look the minimap and only noticed the bunker rush when is done and attacking my hatchery,progamers skip sleep and train many hours,something like this could happen for sure. except it never has, and you're not close to progamer level. Pro players just don't miss something for even a quarter that long, especially early game on 1 base vs 1 base. Anything over a second is a terrible reaction time at that level and what was MKP's? i saw the game,and it not was that evident as people are pointing,the problem is that he scout the base with the reaper,and progamers also miss many things.kill own units and bases.he was already cleared so why continue with this grudge... Because I don't get how you can be in this much denial. It was ridiculously evident if you have any clue about the game. He missed a yellow dot on the minimap for like 70 seconds early game. It's not like misclicking and killing a unit (a split second mistake). Do you have any idea how many times the minimap gets checked by a progamer per minute?? Both commentators literally said "he sees it" because any pro reacts almost immediately to that shit. Any pro will look at that replay and call it a fixed game. Anyway I'm sorry to derail. I'm done. Keep living the dream he's innocent until proven the extra 0.1% guilty.
first of all im not marineking fan,i dont follow his career or team,i play broodwar,i think i know the game since i was master and watch proleague and big tournaments very often,to me it looks like you just want him to be guilty,im just telling you this is possible,now u keep ur frustration and ur grudge so wathever 
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On MarineKing: People were risking 1k dollars to win a hundred. I think that that's a lot more telling than anything that happened in that game.
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I always wondered why Pinnacle would never give lines on Prime games. They must've known that something is up.
Well it's not like Prime would've won most of those matches anyways, lol.
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For a second my eye caught the other koreans and thought they had been involved too, and for a sec I felt sc2 was destroyed. Luckily those were the ones who were matchfixed against. I hope the thread will update so others does not experience the same pain as I just did.
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This news is even presented on one of the biggest dutch tech sites. We made it boys :-x
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Any MarineKing discussion after this is instant ban. Thanks for your cooperation.
On October 19 2015 09:56 Plexa wrote:Uh, we make no secret that we moderate strictly and decide what content we want discussed here. Unfortunately when it comes to these kinds of accusations they can be career ending/severely damaging. The research conducted in that thread wasn't going to influence whatever happened in the Korean scene, the authorities would be conducting their own investigations into the matter. Sangho/Killer was one of those caught in the crossfire of the last major match fixing scandal. Despite being completely innocent, the community thought he fixed a famous game on Outsider (because of how he blundered away a virtually won game). This ultimately lead to his retirement from BW. This is the damage false accusations can have, and hence why we closed the last thread.
These reasons still apply.
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On October 19 2015 20:13 Plexa wrote:
Any MKP discussion after this is instant ban. Thanks for your cooperation.
Heh I'll remove my post then, no reason to leave it there.
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ha, plexa just beat me to it 
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On October 19 2015 20:14 wo1fwood wrote:ha, plexa just beat me to it
Will do. But it's not "MKP"
D:
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 19 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:Will do. But it's not "MKP" D:
Fair call
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On October 19 2015 20:08 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law. Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a scumbag. That's not illegal tho, so your point is pointless..
It's OK to come to conclusions about people, so long as it's not about stuff that's legal or illegal? Come again?
Who I consider guilty of what, in my own mind, is my own prerogative.
edit: this isn't MKP talk. This is theory of free speech talk. I haven't brought up MKP's name once in any post. Please don't slay me. T.T (the irony of celebrating the freeness of speech and asking for reprieve from censure in the same post is not lost on me.)
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Mute City2363 Posts
On October 19 2015 20:07 Swoopae wrote:
To anyone who thinks this is everyone who match fixed... you're wrong, numbers and statistics don't lie and while there may have been one or two false positives, the overwhelming bulk of voided matches will if investigated thoroughly eventually be proven to have been fixed
The part I found interesting was that occasionally the brokers would sell 'fake' tips to scam investors - this definitely explains the Byul vs Terror fake line movement, the only case I can recall where the result did not fit the statistically impossible line movement out of 10 or so very likely to be fixed matches. It almost feels like someone may have tried to frame Byul, i'm pretty certain he's never match fixed.
Without directly accusing anyone, I would be shocked if at least a significant percentage of the players I have mentioned in previous threads as likely fixers are not implicated at some point in the future. There are two that I would bet my entire net worth on being guilty (both of whom were implicated in voided bet threads, a protoss and a terran who lets say made some obvious mistakes in matches), and another three I am fairly sure are, by fairly sure I mean about 90% (two former GSL champions featuring in voided bet threads and a protoss), then several maybes after that.
The only other person I was as confident was fixing as the first two I mention would be Yoda, and B4 would have been about on par with the former two GSL champs in how likely I considered them to be fixing. Even though it's not mentioned I believe there was a B4 vs Bomber game that some friends and I analysed the line movement for/match itself and we determined it was more than 99% likely to be fixed, I don't even recall the actual match that was fixed. Yoda vs Bunny was almost certainly fixed as well.
People can read between the lines if they want and figure out who i'm talking about. I mean, I hope i'm wrong and this is the extent of the scandal, but numbers don't lie, so it's not likely.
Also f Gerrard, what a scumbag, especially if he approached his players about fixing rather than the other way
Anyway, I really don't want to falsely accuse anyone, but as a professional gambler who understands numbers and line movement i'm over 99% sure that there will be more names to come eventually if the investigation is thorough enough
On the plus side even if all of the past perpetrators are caught, arrests being made will serve as a deterrent against players match fixing in the future, while we have to remain vigilant and look for it, i'm sure up and coming progamers will be less likely to match fix as a result so thats a good thing
You're ignoring the situation of the fixers passing on false information (as confirmed earlier). Could easily lead to false positives, and hence you shouldn't rely on just the numbers, when there could be differing reasons for those suspicious circumstances
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EPT
