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Based on the official Police investigation, only the above players have been implicated in matchfixing. There is no reason to further accuse other players and teams until we get more information. Incessant blind accusations will not be tolerated. Please read the thread and the updates before posting. As of page 54 we will be moderating against match fixing accusations for players who were not caught in this incident, including those using voided Pinnacle bets as evidence. |
On October 19 2015 20:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:08 Excludos wrote:On October 19 2015 20:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law. Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a scumbag. That's not illegal tho, so your point is pointless.. It's OK to come to conclusions about people, so long as it's not about stuff that's legal or illegal? Come again? Who I consider guilty of what, in my own mind, is my own prerogative.
I'm hoping this is ok to discuss since we've moved away from naming individuals and over to the actual ethics of doing it:
Of course you can come up with your own conclusions, it's practically impossible not to. However there is a big difference between leaving a girl because you found out that she cheated on you, and running up and down the streets telling people to get their pitchforks because you saw some blood on your neighbour's porch. The line is pretty much drawn at the point we're talking about criminality.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
The fact that fixers passed on false fixes makes Pinnacle and other third party (in that they were not the main sites used for betting) betting sites useless as evidence. Their voided bets essentially mean nothing because of confirmation bias. Anyone who keeps referring to the voided bets is delusional especially since the proven fixes were mostly not voided. Any reference to Pinnacle as evidence will be judged harshly.
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I go to sleep and this turns up holy shit, well this is one way to kill prime off.
And Gerrad has what appears to be a gambling addiction on top of really scumbag moves.
I hope the prime players are given a little leniency.
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I wake up to see this on the front page...
Can't even imagine what this means for the scene T.T
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Poland3775 Posts
On October 19 2015 20:16 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:07 Swoopae wrote:
To anyone who thinks this is everyone who match fixed... you're wrong, numbers and statistics don't lie and while there may have been one or two false positives, the overwhelming bulk of voided matches will if investigated thoroughly eventually be proven to have been fixed
The part I found interesting was that occasionally the brokers would sell 'fake' tips to scam investors - this definitely explains the Byul vs Terror fake line movement, the only case I can recall where the result did not fit the statistically impossible line movement out of 10 or so very likely to be fixed matches. It almost feels like someone may have tried to frame Byul, i'm pretty certain he's never match fixed.
Without directly accusing anyone, I would be shocked if at least a significant percentage of the players I have mentioned in previous threads as likely fixers are not implicated at some point in the future. There are two that I would bet my entire net worth on being guilty (both of whom were implicated in voided bet threads, a protoss and a terran who lets say made some obvious mistakes in matches), and another three I am fairly sure are, by fairly sure I mean about 90% (two former GSL champions featuring in voided bet threads and a protoss), then several maybes after that.
The only other person I was as confident was fixing as the first two I mention would be Yoda, and B4 would have been about on par with the former two GSL champs in how likely I considered them to be fixing. Even though it's not mentioned I believe there was a B4 vs Bomber game that some friends and I analysed the line movement for/match itself and we determined it was more than 99% likely to be fixed, I don't even recall the actual match that was fixed. Yoda vs Bunny was almost certainly fixed as well.
People can read between the lines if they want and figure out who i'm talking about. I mean, I hope i'm wrong and this is the extent of the scandal, but numbers don't lie, so it's not likely.
Also f Gerrard, what a scumbag, especially if he approached his players about fixing rather than the other way
Anyway, I really don't want to falsely accuse anyone, but as a professional gambler who understands numbers and line movement i'm over 99% sure that there will be more names to come eventually if the investigation is thorough enough
On the plus side even if all of the past perpetrators are caught, arrests being made will serve as a deterrent against players match fixing in the future, while we have to remain vigilant and look for it, i'm sure up and coming progamers will be less likely to match fix as a result so thats a good thing
You're ignoring the situation of the fixers passing on false information (as confirmed earlier). Could easily lead to false positives, and hence you shouldn't rely on just the numbers, when there could be differing reasons for those suspicious circumstances
I wonder if match fixing was the only thing that kept Prime afloat, so to speak.
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On October 19 2015 20:21 lichter wrote:
The fact that fixers passed on false fixes makes Pinnacle and other third party (in that they were not the main sites used for betting) betting sites useless as evidence. Their voided bets essentially mean nothing because of confirmation bias. Anyone who keeps referring to the voided bets is delusional especially since the proven fixes were mostly not voided. Any reference to Pinnacle as evidence will be judged harshly.
Where can I find this? I'm apparently blind to this information. :-S
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On October 19 2015 20:21 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 20:08 Excludos wrote:On October 19 2015 20:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law. Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a scumbag. That's not illegal tho, so your point is pointless.. It's OK to come to conclusions about people, so long as it's not about stuff that's legal or illegal? Come again? Who I consider guilty of what, in my own mind, is my own prerogative. I'm hoping this is ok to discuss since we've moved away from naming individuals and over to the actual ethics of doing it: Of course you can come up with your own conclusions, it's practically impossible not to. However there is a big difference between leaving a girl because you found out that she cheated on you, and running up and down the streets telling people to get their pitchforks because you saw some blood on your neighbour's porch. The line is pretty much drawn at the point we're talking about criminality.
In your hypothetical analogy, the accused is in grave physical danger. In the reality that we find ourselves now, there is no danger to any pro accused of match-fixing by random TL members, be it physical or otherwise. The ability of Western slander to impact a Korean playing in Korea, even if we somehow pooled all our malice into the effort, is simply non-existent.
I don't censor my very strong opinion precisely because I know how little weight it carries. (Again, theoretically. In practice, I do censor my opinion because I enjoy my posting privileges.)
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On October 19 2015 20:29 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:21 lichter wrote:
The fact that fixers passed on false fixes makes Pinnacle and other third party (in that they were not the main sites used for betting) betting sites useless as evidence. Their voided bets essentially mean nothing because of confirmation bias. Anyone who keeps referring to the voided bets is delusional especially since the proven fixes were mostly not voided. Any reference to Pinnacle as evidence will be judged harshly. Where can I find this? I'm apparently blind to this information. :-S
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Hahaha on everyone taking Pinnacle as evidence again
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On October 19 2015 20:30 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:29 Penev wrote:On October 19 2015 20:21 lichter wrote:
The fact that fixers passed on false fixes makes Pinnacle and other third party (in that they were not the main sites used for betting) betting sites useless as evidence. Their voided bets essentially mean nothing because of confirmation bias. Anyone who keeps referring to the voided bets is delusional especially since the proven fixes were mostly not voided. Any reference to Pinnacle as evidence will be judged harshly. Where can I find this? I'm apparently blind to this information. :-S https://twitter.com/SaintSnorlax/status/655978939467350016https://twitter.com/SaintSnorlax/status/655979351440236544
Thanks!
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Mute City2363 Posts
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Anywhere to see the overall standings? I saw Fantasy was facing HyuN earlier but never saw the outcome.
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Wax's choice of words makes it seem like he's defending Innovation in particular! (Bogus)
More on-topic... I'd actually be slightly disappointed to have these be the only people caught. There are surely more, and many probably have bigger names than some Prime players.
It's sort of interesting how this all works, given how betting is illegal in Korea in the first place. Then there are people (brokers) conning Korean bettors. And the only betting lines that we've ever seen are these Pinnacle ones (plus a couple others). What really goes on underground with this kind of stuff in Korea?
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Mute City2363 Posts
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Broker cheating investors into betting clean games is their way of hiding the actual matchfixed ones in a sea of voided bets (basically just creating confusion).
Some governments do similar stuff when something big happens: Give the media a lot of bullshit big news, so when they are proven false the big thing that happened gets "lost" in there too. Less exposure and less credibility for the real one.
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Late to the party : Oh fuck ><
Edit : Didn't see the message about accusations and shit
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On October 19 2015 20:30 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:29 Penev wrote:On October 19 2015 20:21 lichter wrote:
The fact that fixers passed on false fixes makes Pinnacle and other third party (in that they were not the main sites used for betting) betting sites useless as evidence. Their voided bets essentially mean nothing because of confirmation bias. Anyone who keeps referring to the voided bets is delusional especially since the proven fixes were mostly not voided. Any reference to Pinnacle as evidence will be judged harshly. Where can I find this? I'm apparently blind to this information. :-S https://twitter.com/SaintSnorlax/status/655978939467350016https://twitter.com/SaintSnorlax/status/655979351440236544
This is exactly why you can't use betting lines as "incontrovertible proof." Numbers and statistics can say literally anything you want them to.
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It shows the state of SC2 in Korea(and in general). The coach and the players of a team competing in the elite league are forced to fix matches just to not starve. And they did it for peanuts... 5k a game... I doubt that Gerrard, Yoda or B4 will go in jail for that.
If anything they are actually making a favor to Yoda. He is still young and can still go to university and get a decent life outside of eSports.
In regards of the match-fixing itself. To think that this will stop it, is like to think that match-fixing in BW stopped after the Savior scandal. It will never end. The more developed the scene is, the more match-fixing there will be. In football people fix matches in the kids leagues...
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On October 19 2015 20:30 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 20:21 Excludos wrote:On October 19 2015 20:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 20:08 Excludos wrote:On October 19 2015 20:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 19 2015 19:56 Poopfeast wrote:
innocent until proven is not limited to law. Actually, yeah, it is. Send some explicitly sexual text messages to someone you could theoretically be attracted to, then leave your phone in a place where your significant other will easily find it. Let's see how innocent they think you are, let's see how many cold, hard facts they need to persuade them that you're a scumbag. That's not illegal tho, so your point is pointless.. It's OK to come to conclusions about people, so long as it's not about stuff that's legal or illegal? Come again? Who I consider guilty of what, in my own mind, is my own prerogative. I'm hoping this is ok to discuss since we've moved away from naming individuals and over to the actual ethics of doing it: Of course you can come up with your own conclusions, it's practically impossible not to. However there is a big difference between leaving a girl because you found out that she cheated on you, and running up and down the streets telling people to get their pitchforks because you saw some blood on your neighbour's porch. The line is pretty much drawn at the point we're talking about criminality. In your hypothetical analogy, the accused is in grave physical danger. In the reality that we find ourselves now, there is no danger to any pro accused of match-fixing by random TL members, be it physical or otherwise. The ability of Western slander to impact a Korean playing in Korea, even if we somehow pooled all our malice into the effort, is simply non-existent. I don't censor my very strong opinion precisely because I know how little weight it carries. (Again, theoretically. In practice, I do censor my opinion because I enjoy my posting privileges.)
The problem is that it does. If enough people band togheter to blame an individual, it ruins his reputation (at least in the west). This is exactly why it's important to refrain from pitchforking people who haven't been convicted. Suspicions are fine, accusing is not. So please, for the love of esports, stop.
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EPT
