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Based on the official Police investigation, only the above players have been implicated in matchfixing. There is no reason to further accuse other players and teams until we get more information. Incessant blind accusations will not be tolerated. Please read the thread and the updates before posting. As of page 54 we will be moderating against match fixing accusations for players who were not caught in this incident, including those using voided Pinnacle bets as evidence. |
On November 04 2015 00:05 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 21:46 cheekymonkey wrote:
Thank you Wuster, that is a very good point which everyone should keep in mind. Suspicious betting patterns does not imply that the players are involved. Coupled with the fact that players every once in a while does play stupidly, they run the risk of being wrongly accused of matchfixing. That is why accusations cannot be allowed to run rampant. You need a different explanation or a much larger conspiracy to use that for something like Proleague and GSL matches though. One realistic way the players could have been unaware even in suspicious matches of the big leagues is the fake tip thing.
The point is however that it is not anyone's responsibility to provide reasonable or likely explanations as to whether a player might be innocent on a case to case basis. The accusation might seem very reasonable, but if the evidence is merely circumstantial (e.g. suspicious betting patterns & apparent throw), and no actual evidence implying guilt is at hand (e.g. actual proof of money transfer, or confession of guilt), then it's a matter of principles. It is too easy to dismiss any possible explanation as unlikely, and a community opinion might spiral out of control, effectively ruining the reputation of conceivably innocent players.
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On November 04 2015 00:24 cheekymonkey wrote: a community opinion might spiral out of control.
What?! Surely such an atrocious event could never be!
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On November 04 2015 00:24 cheekymonkey wrote:
The point is however that it is not anyone's responsibility to provide reasonable or likely explanations as to whether a player might be innocent on a case to case basis. The accusation might seem very reasonable, but if the evidence is merely circumstantial (e.g. suspicious betting patterns & apparent throw), and no actual evidence implying guilt is at hand (e.g. actual proof of money transfer, or confession of guilt), then it's a matter of principles. It is too easy to dismiss any possible explanation as unlikely, and a community opinion might spiral out of control, effectively ruining the reputation of conceivably innocent players.
Well I happen to think that outside of court you don't need exactly the same standard of evidence as in a court of law and circumstantial evidence can lead to a conviction even in a court if there's enough of it. Multiple suspect games based on betting patterns and result, with one of them a really, really, really blatantly obvious looking throw might still well be enough if there is not even a single remotely plausible alternate explanation proposed. Usually in a court the defense also does indeed propose a version of the events, you know.
There are just different interests weighed against each other in this. On the one hand we have the importance of being able to openly discuss the evidence that exists and the players involved. On the other hand there is the threat of a case where TL community apparenty would crucify every single player that has a suspect game unless the noble moderators protect us from ourselves.
I think there could be a better compromise than the current line where it's not apparently even OK to state your opinion on the likelihood of guilt for players that have been involved in more than one match with cancelled bets and a result that seemed to match the betting pattern... You could still moderate to keep the discussion civil even when allowing that kind of statements, at least I don't see why not.
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In my experience, TL does not moderate comments regarding voided bets, and the like. This is free information, and can't be disregarded. However, accusations of crime is another thing, hardly civil and shouldn't be allowed to be thrown around lightly, even though it's just your opinion.
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So are B4, YoDa, and Gerrard still in prison at this moment, or are they out on bail?
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On November 04 2015 10:43 20-Minute-Jackal wrote:
So are B4, YoDa, and Gerrard still in prison at this moment, or are they out on bail?
They haven't seen a day in prison yet, and probably won't for a while (if at all). Also you can't bail out of prison, that's jail you're thinking of. Most likely they weren't in jail for more than a day, considering they're not high flight risk.
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On November 02 2015 14:20 nighcol wrote:
That, and the extremely suspicious way that one match was carried out as well as lack of any real information released that would exonerate him. Talking about something as simple as releasing the match replay and some of the reasoning for why MVP came to the conclusion he was innocent.
So let me ask you a few questions. Why would Kespa hide the fact that MarineKing matchfixed if according to you, those info were enough to accuse him of such a thing? Why did Kespa just open up with Yoda, B4 and Gerrard were involved in the scandal but not MarineKing? What effect would it have on the scene if MarineKing was exposed of such a thing? If you have followed the scene long enough, Kespa once exposed Savior for matchfixing back in the BW days and he was much more successful than these guys ever were. Why would they expose Savior and take away all his achievements and not do the same for MarineKing whose highest peaks only got him to silvers?
Also, all I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't rush to judgement too quickly without having any concrete evidence and only rely on what you think and the voided pinnacle bets. Remember, your words and accusations can hurt the players directly. Just look at the reason why Effort retired from SCII, his peers were suspected of him matchfixing when he didn't. You see what it can do to a progamer who might be innocent but because of our words forced retirement on them and/or make them unable to play the game they love any longer? So hold on to your judgement until more info comes out or now they are all just unjust accusations.
"Innocent until proven guilty" remember that.
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On November 04 2015 11:50 Damnitmynameistaken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 14:20 nighcol wrote:
That, and the extremely suspicious way that one match was carried out as well as lack of any real information released that would exonerate him. Talking about something as simple as releasing the match replay and some of the reasoning for why MVP came to the conclusion he was innocent. So let me ask you a few questions. Why would Kespa hide the fact that MarineKing matchfixed if according to you, those info were enough to accuse him of such a thing? Why did Kespa just open up with Yoda, B4 and Gerrard were involved in the scandal but not MarineKing? What effect would it have on the scene if MarineKing was exposed of such a thing? If you have followed the scene long enough, Kespa once exposed Savior for matchfixing back in the BW days and he was much more successful than these guys ever were. Why would they expose Savior and take away all his achievements and not do the same for MarineKing whose highest peaks only got him to silvers?
It doesn't have to be KeSPA knowingly trying to conceal anything. That said, do we know who started the police investigation in the Yoda, B4 and Gerrard case? Could be that KeSPA didn't even have any power in that.
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On November 04 2015 19:23 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 11:50 Damnitmynameistaken wrote:On November 02 2015 14:20 nighcol wrote:
That, and the extremely suspicious way that one match was carried out as well as lack of any real information released that would exonerate him. Talking about something as simple as releasing the match replay and some of the reasoning for why MVP came to the conclusion he was innocent. So let me ask you a few questions. Why would Kespa hide the fact that MarineKing matchfixed if according to you, those info were enough to accuse him of such a thing? Why did Kespa just open up with Yoda, B4 and Gerrard were involved in the scandal but not MarineKing? What effect would it have on the scene if MarineKing was exposed of such a thing? If you have followed the scene long enough, Kespa once exposed Savior for matchfixing back in the BW days and he was much more successful than these guys ever were. Why would they expose Savior and take away all his achievements and not do the same for MarineKing whose highest peaks only got him to silvers? It doesn't have to be KeSPA knowingly trying to conceal anything. That said, do we know who started the police investigation in the Yoda, B4 and Gerrard case? Could be that KeSPA didn't even have any power in that.
No we don't know who initiated it, it really doesn't matter to the prosecutor so I doubt they'll tell us. But we have Kespa statements from over half year *before* Pinnacle said anything that they were forwarding leads to the police. I don't think the police kicked this off on their own, but maybe they did.
And that's really the thing, the police aren't going to say who's still under investigation, nor are they going to tell us who they've previously investigated and dropped pursuing. So it's really specious to draw correlation between the Yoda / B4 games with any of the other suspicious games.
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Lmao Yoda what the heck you sly dog
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On November 02 2015 04:46 nighcol wrote:
What exactly is the rationale for not allowing any speculation on match fixing? If you can't even raise suspicions it seems like a really good way to support any such activity. Is there a similar policy for suspected cheaters on ladder? Can't really say I get the warning to swoopae's carefully constructed post...
I don't quite get the uproar over the standards of moderation. Unless you own the site or contribute significantly to it, especially financially, it is quite clear that the administration has no rational short-term incentive to pander to your whims over whichever long-term objectives they might have. And they have time and time again signalled such an intention very publicly.
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Looks like there haven't been any updates here for 10 days or so. Have there been any new announcements? I'd like to follow this story to the end.
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On November 04 2015 11:50 Damnitmynameistaken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 14:20 nighcol wrote:
That, and the extremely suspicious way that one match was carried out as well as lack of any real information released that would exonerate him. Talking about something as simple as releasing the match replay and some of the reasoning for why MVP came to the conclusion he was innocent. "Innocent until proven guilty" remember that.
Most people here don't give a shit about that. Most countries in the world don't give a shit about that. If you get accused of something you are seen as guilty, such as in the case here. Nobody convicted yet, I believe, but guilty in the eyes of everyone regardless.
Ps. people still care about this? 0_0
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EPT
