EPTYoDa, B4, Gerrard arrested for match-fixing - Page 70
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Based on the official Police investigation, only the above players have been implicated in matchfixing. There is no reason to further accuse other players and teams until we get more information. Incessant blind accusations will not be tolerated. Please read the thread and the updates before posting. As of page 54 we will be moderating against match fixing accusations for players who were not caught in this incident, including those using voided Pinnacle bets as evidence. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8110 Posts
On November 02 2015 09:47 Doodsmack wrote: If nothing else it would be useful to see a summary of each match with suspicious betting activity. The matches were discussed a lot before, but now that this event happened, that kind of puts things in a new light. No it doesn't. Some people being caught does not mean that any previous suspicious case is true. Like I stated, there is absolutely nothing useful to come out of something like that. Anyone on this summary would automatically be stamped as a matchfixer, even if they have nothing to do with it. "Innocent until proven otherwise" is not something people on this forum generally takes to heart. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On November 02 2015 09:47 Doodsmack wrote: If nothing else it would be useful to see a summary of each match with suspicious betting activity. The matches were discussed a lot before, but now that this event happened, that kind of puts things in a new light. Some Mods here even discard the possibility of matchfixing in SC2 scene, for them everything was perfect (even banning people who wrote about it),only a couple of course, but then you realize that having passion for the game and thousand of posts dont make you a good Mod. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8110 Posts
On November 02 2015 09:56 palexhur wrote: Some Mods here even discard the possibility of matchfixing in SC2 scene, for them everything was perfect (even banning people who wrote about it),only a couple of course, but then you realize that having passion for the game and thousand of posts dont make you a good Mod. There is a biiig difference between not judging until all evidence is on the table, and discarding the possibility. We can have as many suspicions as we want, the problem lies in the fact that people are pitchforking based on flimsy evidence. There is absolutely zero good discussion to be had after that. Here, let me tl;dr the entire discussion on the topic: person 1: "Player X is matchfixing. Look at this evidence Z!" person 2: "Thats not evidence, here are several reasons why. I agree it looks suspicious tho" person 1: "He's matchfixing for sure! You're in denial!" person 2: "I'm just saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge when we don't have all the information" person 3: "I agree player X is matchfixing. Look at evidence Z!" And the circle continues. | ||
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RenZ
Singapore65 Posts
Some Mods here even discard the possibility of matchfixing in SC2 scene, for them everything was perfect (even banning people who wrote about it),only a couple of course, but then you realize that having passion for the game and thousand of posts dont make you a good Mod. I hope you are not working in law enforcement. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On November 02 2015 10:33 RenZ wrote: I hope you are not working in law enforcement. It is forum to express opinions not a court, sorry to dissapoint you, but we are talking about a video game not about death penalty sentence, some of the people banned just gave their opinion, but ok, just look to another side, and go blind denying things or the chance of them happening. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On November 02 2015 09:52 Excludos wrote: No it doesn't. Some people being caught does not mean that any previous suspicious case is true. Like I stated, there is absolutely nothing useful to come out of something like that. Anyone on this summary would automatically be stamped as a matchfixer, even if they have nothing to do with it. "Innocent until proven otherwise" is not something people on this forum generally takes to heart. Nor did I say it means previous cases were true. Some of the previously suspicious betting activity occurred with now-confirmed matchfixing. It's relevant. People can think for themselves and not automatically assume guilty if they were to see such a summary. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8110 Posts
On November 02 2015 11:15 Doodsmack wrote: Nor did I say it means previous cases were true. Some of the previously suspicious betting activity occurred with now-confirmed matchfixing. It's relevant. People can think for themselves and not automatically assume guilty if they were to see such a summary. I don't see how that's relevant at all. What could you possibly get out of that conversation that we haven't already? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2015 08:30 Excludos wrote: What most people count as evidence is little other than indications, and people are extremely quick to jump the bandwagon on any little indication. I don't know the official stance on this, but I'd tread with care if I was you. These are people we're talking about, and speculating on criminal activity is a good way of ruining someone's reputation, which is especially bad if the guy in question hasn't actually done anything. Besides, most of it has been discussed to death already. Unless you're bringing new information to the table, I don't see what there is to gain from it Yeah we have to be very careful when discussing these topics. To understand why check out this interview from the last match fixing saga http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131156-interview-sangho-on-match-fixing Sangho would go on to be Killer/Swagger in SC2. We have to realise that its very difficult for us to help out any official investigation since these matters need to be handled by KeSPA/police. But we do wield incredible destructive power to tarnish someones reputation forever by speculating. | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
On November 02 2015 09:56 palexhur wrote: Some Mods here even discard the possibility of matchfixing in SC2 scene, for them everything was perfect (even banning people who wrote about it),only a couple of course, but then you realize that having passion for the game and thousand of posts dont make you a good Mod. Care to be specific ?  If you have problems with moderation feel free to bring it up in Website Feedback. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 02 2015 11:13 palexhur wrote: It is forum to express opinions not a court, sorry to dissapoint you, but we are talking about a video game not about death penalty sentence, some of the people banned just gave their opinion, but ok, just look to another side, and go blind denying things or the chance of them happening. It is not our place to confirm or deny anything, but with the consequences of the BW Matchfixing scandal clear in memory it is our place to ensure that potentially innocent players are not persecuted before legal processes have appraised them. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On November 02 2015 11:55 Plexa wrote: Yeah we have to be very careful when discussing these topics. To understand why check out this interview from the last match fixing saga http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131156-interview-sangho-on-match-fixing Sangho would go on to be Killer/Swagger in SC2. We have to realise that its very difficult for us to help out any official investigation since these matters need to be handled by KeSPA/police. But we do wield incredible destructive power to tarnish someones reputation forever by speculating. Yeah, it makes sense that we shouldn't go out and say that player X was match fixing, and that we have to be careful not to ruin innocent players reputation. Most of these guys are barely out of their teens after all... At the same time we should acknowledge that there is a fair (at least) chance that matchfixing is/was not limited to the ones named here. I understand that you mods can't let accusations go unmoderated, but it'd be a bit too much (imo) to close any discussion on the subject. So if there is another game with funny line movement, pinnacle cancellation and maybe even unusually poor play from the losing player, exactly how much are we allowed to talk about it? Can we post "wow, this looks like matchfixing! :o"? How about "definitely seems like some bettors think they have inside information about this. :/"? The discussion so far has been pretty polarised (as usual on TL and intarwebs in general) with "X MATCHFIXED!!!" vs "we don't know for sure", but how much space is there for "hmm, this looks suspicious..."? You get the point. While this is strictly speaking website feedback, I think it makes sense to have some further guidelines here in this thread, as very few reads the website feedback subforum. You got some limitations on the top of this thread, but maybe could be good with more specific limits. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Damnitmynameistaken
United States187 Posts
I understand that you mods can't let accusations go unmoderated, but it'd be a bit too much (imo) to close any discussion on the subject. So if there is another game with funny line movement, pinnacle cancellation and maybe even unusually poor play from the losing player, exactly how much are we allowed to talk about it? Can we post "wow, this looks like matchfixing! :o"? How about "definitely seems like some bettors think they have inside information about this. :/"? The discussion so far has been pretty polarised (as usual on TL and intarwebs in general) with "X MATCHFIXED!!!" vs "we don't know for sure", but how much space is there for "hmm, this looks suspicious..."? You get the point. But how many people are actually saying X is suspicious and not just saying he matchfixed? Also, I just don't understand why many people can't get over the facts about MarineKing who was already investigated by Kespa and the police and they found nothing, so what base are we still accusing him for? The Pinnacle void? | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On November 02 2015 13:25 Damnitmynameistaken wrote: But how many people are actually saying X is suspicious and not just saying he matchfixed? Also, I just don't understand why many people can't get over the facts about MarineKing who was already investigated by Kespa and the police and they found nothing, so what base are we still accusing him for? The Pinnacle void? That, and the extremely suspicious way that one match was carried out as well as lack of any real information released that would exonerate him. Talking about something as simple as releasing the match replay and some of the reasoning for why MVP came to the conclusion he was innocent. | ||
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magicallypuzzled
United States588 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On November 02 2015 13:13 Cascade wrote: Yeah, it makes sense that we shouldn't go out and say that player X was match fixing, and that we have to be careful not to ruin innocent players reputation. Most of these guys are barely out of their teens after all... At the same time we should acknowledge that there is a fair (at least) chance that matchfixing is/was not limited to the ones named here. I understand that you mods can't let accusations go unmoderated, but it'd be a bit too much (imo) to close any discussion on the subject. So if there is another game with funny line movement, pinnacle cancellation and maybe even unusually poor play from the losing player, exactly how much are we allowed to talk about it? Can we post "wow, this looks like matchfixing! :o"? How about "definitely seems like some bettors think they have inside information about this. :/"? The discussion so far has been pretty polarised (as usual on TL and intarwebs in general) with "X MATCHFIXED!!!" vs "we don't know for sure", but how much space is there for "hmm, this looks suspicious..."? You get the point. While this is strictly speaking website feedback, I think it makes sense to have some further guidelines here in this thread, as very few reads the website feedback subforum. You got some limitations on the top of this thread, but maybe could be good with more specific limits. It should also be noted that TL have tried to investigate the issue by interviewing both Pinnacle and KeSPA for greater transparency, while communicating our own findings and suspicions to each party including the community. We aren't simply modding and banning people; we've been actively trying to find out more and sharing that information with the relevant parties. Saying that we are turning a blind eye or rejecting the possibility of matchfixing is ridiculous. We simply will not tolerate slandering potentially innocent players until we have justifiable cause to do so. As the recent revelations (especially that of "false positive" fixes) showed, "Pinnacle voided the bets" is not enough to condemn anyone. It may be a smoking gun, but it doesn't prove who fired or at whom. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
For one of the bets Pinnacle voided it turned out one of the players in question was in-and-out of the hospital the week before the match and after rosters were locked. If that info was leaked would that explain the betting pattern? You'd have to ask Pinnacle or be a bookie to say for sure, but 'insider trading' would be a pretty plausible non-match-fixing alternative I'd say. Another bet-manipulating scandal was the case Olimoley raised, which was 100% improper betting and in the best case 0% match-fixing + Show Spoiler + brief recap for the most common form of manipulation: * pay money to sponsor online tournament * use clout to get refs/admins/someone to observe game live * insist on 1 hour delay to 'avoid stream cheating' * pump up the bets on sites that close betting 15 minutes before broadcast time barring a 3-hour swarmhost turtlefest, you literally cannot lose that bet and didn't have to involve the players at all. But of course the main issue is these guys weren't arrested because Pinnacle said the bets were iffy or because viewers spotting some bone-headed throws in the games/replay. It's because the police found a trail of money connecting everyone. So the Pinnacle voids alone just don't mean anything, especially since we have no idea which other players have already been investigated by police (in fact some might still be under investigation). Also, don't forget that Kespa has been forwarding leads to the police for a year and a half now (when Solar and MMA were offered money to throw games), which is way earlier than the first voided bet on Pinnacle. So you can't even say Pinnacle was the first warning sign we got that something shady was happening. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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nighcol
298 Posts
On November 03 2015 21:46 cheekymonkey wrote: Thank you Wuster, that is a very good point which everyone should keep in mind. Suspicious betting patterns does not imply that the players are involved. Coupled with the fact that players every once in a while does play stupidly, they run the risk of being wrongly accused of matchfixing. That is why accusations cannot be allowed to run rampant. You need a different explanation or a much larger conspiracy to use that for something like Proleague and GSL matches though. One realistic way the players could have been unaware even in suspicious matches of the big leagues is the fake tip thing. | ||
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