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Based on the official Police investigation, only the above players have been implicated in matchfixing. There is no reason to further accuse other players and teams until we get more information. Incessant blind accusations will not be tolerated. Please read the thread and the updates before posting. As of page 54 we will be moderating against match fixing accusations for players who were not caught in this incident, including those using voided Pinnacle bets as evidence. |
United States33173 Posts
Updated OP with a better summary based on the official investigation report. Will try to clean it up some more after I've slept.
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On October 19 2015 18:51 SystemXN wrote:Leifeng (the sponsor of Chinese tournament Leifeng Cup who has contact with Korean scene) revealed some facts about Prime on Chinese forum ( original post in Chinese) Gerrard never paid salaries to his players, he even prohibited players to use air-conditioner in team house during this summer (maybe to save money). Gerrard didn't care about Prime's SC2 team but paid his full attention on his LoL team. More ironically, even his LoL team cannot have five enough good computers to practice LoL, so Gerrard took iG (invictus Gaming, the Chinese pro team)'s two computers for practicing and never returned them. What's more, Gerrard took ByuN's top-class personal computer (which values about $1,200) to team house, not only never returned it, but sold it for money. It is sad to see both Gerrard and Prime as SC2 veteran come to such an shameful end.
Holy shit. Move over Simon Boudreault, there's a new Most Hated Man in SC2 overnight and it's Gerrard.
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On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior.
The thing about "innocent until proven guilty" that people like you misunderstand is that it only matters when it comes to law enforcement. You don't put people into jail until they have been convinced in court. But we can still talk about OJ Simpson being guilty on the other hand because the opposite is extremely unlikely.
What one should do is to estimate the probaiblity of (A) MKP not seeing the creep on the minimap despite starting at the minimap and (B) Pinnacleodds voiding a bet that wasn't matchfixed.
Then you should multiply the them together.
I estimate the odds of A being 1 to a million. The odds of B is 1%.
Hence the probabiliy of MKP not matchfixing is 1:100,000,000.
So I continue to talk as if MKP did matchfix untill you can provide enough reasoning to explain why my odds are off.
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On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. See this the stupid black/white logic I see over and over again. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. What one should do is to estimate the probaiblity of (A) MKP not seeing the creep on the minimap despite starting at the minimap and (B) Pinnacleodds voiding a bet that wasn't matchfixed. Then you should multiply the them together. I estimate the odds of A being 1 to a million. The odds of B is 1%. Hence the probabiliy of MKP not matchfixing is 1:100,000,000. So I continue to talk as if MKP did matchfix untill you can provide enough reasoning to explain why my odds are off.
Nice ad hominem, thanks for it.
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On October 19 2015 19:26 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. See this the stupid black/white logic I see over and over again. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. What one should do is to estimate the probaiblity of (A) MKP not seeing the creep on the minimap despite starting at the minimap and (B) Pinnacleodds voiding a bet that wasn't matchfixed. Then you should multiply the them together. I estimate the odds of A being 1 to a million. The odds of B is 1%. Hence the probabiliy of MKP not matchfixing is 1:100,000,000. So I continue to talk as if MKP did matchfix untill you can provide enough reasoning to explain why my odds are off. Nice ad hominem, thanks for it.
Nice argumentation. You sound really intelligent.
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Just saw this
Will be interested to see how many of the 12 names are the people we put together on our list of known matchfixers here and 2p2 - just catching up on the thread now
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On October 19 2015 19:26 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. See this the stupid black/white logic I see over and over again. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. What one should do is to estimate the probaiblity of (A) MKP not seeing the creep on the minimap despite starting at the minimap and (B) Pinnacleodds voiding a bet that wasn't matchfixed. Then you should multiply the them together. I estimate the odds of A being 1 to a million. The odds of B is 1%. Hence the probabiliy of MKP not matchfixing is 1:100,000,000. So I continue to talk as if MKP did matchfix untill you can provide enough reasoning to explain why my odds are off. Nice ad hominem, thanks for it.
You called him a "TL warrior." He didn't call you anything. The only ad hominems around here are the ones you done slung, son.
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They are fucking disgraces.
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On October 19 2015 19:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:26 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. See this the stupid black/white logic I see over and over again. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. What one should do is to estimate the probaiblity of (A) MKP not seeing the creep on the minimap despite starting at the minimap and (B) Pinnacleodds voiding a bet that wasn't matchfixed. Then you should multiply the them together. I estimate the odds of A being 1 to a million. The odds of B is 1%. Hence the probabiliy of MKP not matchfixing is 1:100,000,000. So I continue to talk as if MKP did matchfix untill you can provide enough reasoning to explain why my odds are off. Nice ad hominem, thanks for it. Nice argumentation. You sound really intelligent.
Stop fighting please.
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Just saw this
Will be interested to see how many of the 12 names are the people we put together on our list of known matchfixers here and 2p2 - just catching up on the thread now
I've made it pretty public in previous threads which players I thought were fixing and Yoda and B4 were both on the list, and the list did contain something like 8-12 names from memory including two GSL champions
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On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis.
He says, before starting to use random probabilities based on nothing concrete. Not saying I disagree, but seriously?
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The timing is so bad! Just a few weeks before Legacy of the Void gets released, it's a pretty bad publicity for a game that is striving to muster up the core fans. I'm disappointed because the Korean scene is incredibly competitive, and this kind of behaviours are setting eSports back in 2010 again.
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On October 19 2015 18:51 SystemXN wrote:Leifeng (the sponsor of Chinese tournament Leifeng Cup who has contact with Korean scene) revealed some facts about Prime on Chinese forum ( original post in Chinese) Gerrard never paid salaries to his players, he even prohibited players to use air-conditioner in team house during this summer (maybe to save money). Gerrard didn't care about Prime's SC2 team but paid his full attention on his LoL team. More ironically, even his LoL team cannot have five enough good computers to practice LoL, so Gerrard took iG (invictus Gaming, the Chinese pro team)'s two computers for practicing and never returned them. What's more, Gerrard took ByuN's top-class personal computer (which values about $1,200) to team house, not only never returned it, but sold it for money. It is sad to see both Gerrard and Prime as SC2 veteran come to such an shameful end.
Rotten bastard, hope he gets jail time. I was always baffled at the support for a team that treated its players so poorly.
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On October 19 2015 19:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. He says, before starting to use random probabilities based on nothing concrete. Not saying I disagree, but seriously?
Exactly what I thought ahah.
Just speaks about proba's and stuff then just pull out numbers out of his ass, clearly saying it, and do the math as it will prove something. Like, for real ?
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On October 19 2015 19:30 MalditoKyo wrote:
The timing is so bad! Just a few weeks before Legacy of the Void gets released, it's a pretty bad publicity for a game that is striving to muster up the core fans. I'm disappointed because the Korean scene is incredibly competitive, and this kind of behaviours are setting eSports back in 2010 again.
You think this timing is bad, if this information had come out one month earlier, Proleague might have had to shut down, period.
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On October 19 2015 19:35 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:30 MalditoKyo wrote:
The timing is so bad! Just a few weeks before Legacy of the Void gets released, it's a pretty bad publicity for a game that is striving to muster up the core fans. I'm disappointed because the Korean scene is incredibly competitive, and this kind of behaviours are setting eSports back in 2010 again. You think this timing is bad, if this information had come out one month earlier, Proleague might have had to shut down, period.
tbh the timing suggests Kespa may have delayed it till after the season finished
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On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence. Being cleared in my opinion, means assessing the evidence and coming to the conclusion that X wasn't guilty.
No, you are innocent until proven guilty. MKP is innocent of any wrongdoing, unless an investigation says otherwise.
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On October 19 2015 19:35 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:30 MalditoKyo wrote:
The timing is so bad! Just a few weeks before Legacy of the Void gets released, it's a pretty bad publicity for a game that is striving to muster up the core fans. I'm disappointed because the Korean scene is incredibly competitive, and this kind of behaviours are setting eSports back in 2010 again. You think this timing is bad, if this information had come out one month earlier, Proleague might have had to shut down, period.
Yeah. I think that's pretty much why KeSPA appeared not to do anything during the drama story with Pinnacla voiding bets.
In fact they didn't do nothing. I guess they started the investigation that let to this, but needed time to get evidences and the right timing also for them. Gotta not forget that they are some business points on the line also.
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On October 19 2015 19:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 19:24 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 19:20 sAsImre wrote:On October 19 2015 19:19 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:53 Elentos wrote:On October 19 2015 18:44 Hider wrote:On October 19 2015 18:31 opisska wrote:
So the whole Pinnacle nonsense is useless in discovering the real problem? hahahaha They just don't have evidence for those types (yet). On October 19 2015 18:40 rednusa wrote:
I watched a few of YoDa's VODs posted in the OP. None of them looks particularly suspicious. Yes this was the same dumb argument people used to defend against the original accusations (until MKP incident). Don't you understand how insanely easy it is to lose a game of Starcraft? If you are not on your A-game you are not gonna win a game in PL. In order to lose you just need to have slightly suboptimal micro, slightly suptimal builds, slightly suptimal macro and timings. The MKP incidence was the extreme rare occurance where you can actually clearly see how MKP lost it intentional, but that was due to an extreme "unluck" of MKP unintentionally spotting the creep on the minimap. The difference is that MKP was cleared from the accusation for what looks like an obvious throw by KeSPA because nothing was found behind it, while YoDa made more subtle mistakes but wasn't cleared because everything behind it was uncovered. He wasn't cleared from anything. They just didn't find the evidence, which is exactly what I wrote. You should reread Kespa's actual statement. Convicted until clear. What a noble sense of justice from our lovely TL warrior. People like you have no understanding of basic probabiliteis. He says, before starting to use random probabilities based on nothing concrete. Not saying I disagree, but seriously?
Based on nothing concrete? This is the fist time in the history of Starcraft that a progamer has ever made such a gigantic ever as MKP did here. We can all discuss whether its one to a million or to a 1,000, but the ODDS ARE huge. Not watching the minimap for over a minute despite starting at the screen and your eyes glaring on the minimap are very very very low.
The issue is the whole misunderstanding of "innocent until proven guilty" that pepole apply in the wrong context.
That, and the below two arguments were most frequently used from dumb TLers:
1. "Pinnaclesports is just scammy, they void bets because they don't want to lose money" (srs?)
2." I can't see anything unuusal on these games (exception MKP), therefore there is no matchfixing..."
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On October 19 2015 17:29 Musicus wrote:
Well it took a looooooong while, but finally it's being dealt with. Good riddance Gerrard, YoDa and B4.
We knew this was going on but just stopped asking due to request of cummunity figures that said evidence was being gathered in the background. I'm thankful this was not a lie and something was being done indeed. Thanks again Olvia, TB, Pinaccle and others for speaking out and helping to put a stop to this.
Olvia? you mean Olivia Wong? LOL
She mentioned certain peopele`s name with an unidentified source, which made innocent victims such as Mal.
edit: injuring others reputation with speculation is the least thing reporter should do.
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EPT
