TeamLiquid was fortunate to secure an interview with KeSPA concerning the recent concerns over match fixing within Starcraft 2. During the most recent episode of "The Late Game", Wolf gave some insight as to how thorough of an investigation was conducted into the suspicious MarineKing game. The investigation included searching MarineKing's phone and computer for any evidence for conspiring to match fix. The investigation did not turn up any evidence to suggest that MarineKing was involved in any match fixing.
The questions chosen were decided by TeamLiquid staff and members of the community particularly involved in the match fixing discussions on TeamLiquid. Man Soo Cho, Secretary General of KeSPA, answered our questions on behalf of the organization. Special thanks to Chuddinater for facilitating the interview.
Man Soo Cho
There are many rumors of match fixing and illegal betting in Korea for multiple games. There are people who even believe that it is an open secret, especially since there is a precedent for it (the saviOr match fixing scandal). How long has KeSPA been aware of these illegal activities, and what has KeSPA been doing about it?
We are aware that there will always be individual that are interested in fixing matches in all sports. We continuously monitor sites and have created a clean e-Sports campaign to help combat illegal betting in Korea. We have set up a site for community members to give us information regarding illegal betting sites, as well as created a reward system for community members that give KeSPA information that leads to closer of an illegal betting site. You can find more information or send information to us at KeSPA’s official site http://e-sports.or.kr/clean/clean_intro.php.
Several community members have come out, claiming that they've received offers to fix matches. MMA and Solar both received offers to fix matches in the past, which they refused. Olivia Wong (Axiom Manager) and Mal (translator and tournament organizer) were contacted by sponsors that may be involved. Have other players or teams approached KeSPA regarding these offers? What has KeSPA been doing about these reports?
We are aware that players have been approached by match fixers and are working with teams to monitor contact between players and unknown individuals over social media and other outlets. Also, Olivia Wong’s statement about certain tournament sponsors being involved in online betting is a major reason KeSPA is very cautious in allowing players to participate in online tournaments. We need to make sure online tournaments have transparent sponsors that we can trust as well as make sure only an official observer, that has no affiliation with sponsors or betting sites, can watch the matches without stream delays. People may believe KeSPA is too strict with what online tournaments we will allow our players to participate in, however there are many risks that we want to protect our players and teams from when participating in unaffiliated online tournaments.
The most scrutinized game so far is MarineKing vs ByuL due to the voided bets and the nature of the game. Team MVP has made a statement claiming that the loss was not a thrown game. However, the VOD alone has given the community a reason to doubt that conclusion. MarineKing clearly saw a dot on his mini map. Did he go there using his POV? What was MarineKing doing during the time the creep/spinecrawler was visible on the mini map? Is there any reason for MarineKing not to check his mini map? Did MarineKing do anything out of the ordinary during the rush? Please walk us through your analysis of the replay.
That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match.
Do you have a panel of judges or referees that analyzes the games suspected of match fixing? What details do they specifically look for? What is their process for identifying suspicious actions in-game? What type of evidence do they look for? Did all the suspected matches receive this treatment?
KeSPA has a match fixing committee that is comprised of experts in the field and KeSPA representatives that review matches that are under suspicion. We do not want to release exactly what our committee looks for when reviewing cases as we do not want to let match fixers know what to avoid.
Is KeSPA willing to allow a small, independent panel of players and community members to analyze the replays (which will not be shared) of games suspected of match fixing? Why or why not?
If there is a member in the community that can specialist on this matter we are more than welcome to have them contact us.
What punishment would KeSPA issue if a player were found to be match fixing? Short of a direct confession, what kind of proof would be required to condemn a player? Have you taken steps towards monitoring that evidence?
If a player is found guilty of match fixing there are two punishments that we will hand down to the player. First we will ban that player and insure that the player will never be able to play professionally ever again. Second, we will work with the police and prosecutors to punish the player and all parties involved to the fullest extent of the law.
It took KeSPA a really long time before they agreed to release a statement regarding this issue. Some in the community believed that KeSPA had adopted an "ignorance is bliss" attitude because of the delay. Why did it take so long for KeSPA to make a statement, and does KeSPA plan on making more transparent statements in the future?
KeSPA does not respond to rumors and only will release facts. We took our time to collect evidence and look at every angle of the situation so we would be able to give a more knowledgeable statement. As the governing agency of e-Sports in Korea we do not make knee jerk reactions in response and needed time to make sure we had all the facts before we could proceed.
The community is very worried regarding the state of esports in Korea due to illegal gambling. Do you have any last words regarding this issue?
Match fixing is an ongoing issue in all professional sports and as more money is involved more people will be interested in fixing matches. We are actively finding ways to prevent match fixing and educating players on the issue. We continue to monitor the situation and welcome the community to give us their input. We thank you all for having such a large interest in Korean StarCraft II and hope you will continue to support our teams and tournaments.
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
Well, it's good to know they know & care about all this
I think there was more concrete information in Wolf's 15sec remarks than in this interview, though. Of course I understand the need to be professional and to keep specific information about countermeasures secret, it was just a little disappointing
With this interview, I hope all the nay-sayers are put to rest.
It's a relief, though, to finally have KeSPA say something and at the same time, show their very professional approach to investigating matters like this.
Damn, I don't know what to think about MarineKing anymore. On the one hand, Kespa sounds serious about this, on the other hand the MarineKing match looks too suspicious for me to dismiss it just based on their word . And believe me, I'm just waiting to be convinced, basically.
I wish there were similar punishments in Dota 2 for matchfixing, I don't like that a player that threw a game is allowed to play at the biggest tournament in the game's history. I don't care if it was one time or if the game didn't matter, he should not be allowed to play in premier tournaments anymore.
Jesus, if MarineKing really wasn't match fixing his confidence must be completely ruined. He's playing so terribly that people are actually suspecting him of throwing games. Awful
That's what happens when you play games (LoL) and try to come back to an actual esport, Sorry LoL fans.
yeah this is really great! Hats off to TL and KESPA. This interview goes a great way to restoring (only mildly tarnished in my opinion) the integrity of SC2 in Korea.
Nice questions. Obviously they can't disclose too much about their methods if they want to catch match fixers. The penalties seem pretty incredible. You would think ending the players career would be enough, but no, they want blood. Prosecute them criminally too, apparently. :D
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
Not a sufficient defense of MarineKing. No defense is sufficient without specific explanations of MKP's actions during the match. Why won't they say what questions they asked MarineKing about the match? Of course he could delete messages from his phone and computer - if he has a brain then he deleted them immediately after the conversation.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
On June 11 2015 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: Jesus, if MarineKing really wasn't match fixing his confidence must be completely ruined. He's playing so terribly that people are actually suspecting him of throwing games. Awful
That's what happens when you play games (LoL) and try to come back to an actual esport, Sorry LoL fans.
You'd really need to see the game to understand. It isn't just his insanely crazily poor performance/behavior during that game. There was also some very suspicious betting patterns on major betting sites (Pinnacle).
Also, regarding your last bit... That's silly, as he had a decent performance upon coming back in PL (10-13, was the ace player) and also, towards the end of 2014, he got 2nd place in the Kespa Cup. He qualified by a qualifier, beat Parting 3-0, beat Zest 3-2, then lost to sOs in the finals. While he's doing pretty bad again, I'm pretty sure his current state is not due to playing a game like LoL... I'm not super fond of LoL either, but it isn't really necessary to go out of your way to shit on the game as an esport.
On June 11 2015 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: Jesus, if MarineKing really wasn't match fixing his confidence must be completely ruined. He's playing so terribly that people are actually suspecting him of throwing games. Awful
That's what happens when you play games (LoL) and try to come back to an actual esport, Sorry LoL fans.
You'd really need to see the game to understand. It isn't just his insanely crazily poor performance/behavior during that game. There was also some very suspicious betting patterns on major betting sites (Pinnacle).
Also, regarding your last bit... That's silly, as he had a decent performance upon coming back in PL (10-13, was the ace player) and also, towards the end of 2014, he got 2nd place in the Kespa Cup. He qualified by a qualifier, beat Parting 3-0, beat Zest 3-2, then lost to sOs in the finals. While he's doing pretty bad again, I'm pretty sure his current state is not due to playing a game like LoL... I'm not super fond of LoL either, but it isn't really necessary to go out of your way to shit on the game as an esport.
It didn't take long for people to realize how 1-dimensional MarineKing still was, aye?
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
What's your point? I'm sure Alfred Dreyfus also claimed his innocence. The reality is KeSPA probably found nothing one way or another beyond what is known by the community in this case, and for lack of evidence decided he was innocent.
Is that the right decision? I'd say so. Even if you believe in his guilt, it isn't beyond reason that MarineKing could play that badly. In fact that game isn't quite the worst game we've seen him ever play. I still remember that qualifier where people were divided about whether the player playing under the name MarineKing was actually him due to how badly he was playing.
On June 11 2015 13:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What's your point? I'm sure Alfred Dreyfus also claimed his innocence.
His point was that just because an organization like FIFA or Kespa says they aren't corrupt, they still could be.
Any time you have an internal investigation of an organization by the organization itself, it is a ridiculous situation and should be viewed as comedy as it is not serious. Anyone who understands what the term "conflict of interests" laughs at this situation.
Anyway it didn't seem like a live interview, so of course it comes off like a bunch of softball questions with indirect answers. I would have liked someone to grill this guy and get real explanations about why they can't reveal everything about the MKP situation, why they can't share replays, why it matters that people know what their committee looks for, and get some real evidence that the bets weren't shady for MKP-Byul ect.
They basically said "We investigated everything thoroughly and by the book, but we can't tell you what we did." And that doesn't mean anything.
On June 11 2015 12:10 plasmidghost wrote: I wish there were similar punishments in Dota 2 for matchfixing, I don't like that a player that threw a game is allowed to play at the biggest tournament in the game's history. I don't care if it was one time or if the game didn't matter, he should not be allowed to play in premier tournaments anymore.
This annoys the hell out of me in Dota too, but for some reason fans just don't give a fuck in that game. Every time someone fixes as match everyone goes well everyone makes mistakes let him back in he's paid the price after a few months, it's insane.
On June 11 2015 13:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What's your point? I'm sure Alfred Dreyfus also claimed his innocence.
His point was that just because an organization like FIFA or Kespa says they aren't corrupt, they still could be.
Any time you have an internal investigation of an organization by the organization itself, it is a ridiculous situation and should be viewed as comedy as it is not serious. Anyone who understands what the term "conflict of interests" laughs at this situation.
Anyway it didn't seem like a live interview, so of course it comes off like a bunch of softball questions with indirect answers. I would have liked someone to grill this guy and get real explanations about why they can't reveal everything about the MKP situation, why they can't share replays, why it matters that people know what their committee looks for, and get some real evidence that the bets weren't shady for MKP-Byul ect.
They basically said "We investigated everything thoroughly and by the book, but we can't tell you what we did." And that doesn't mean anything.
Nice. Now please tell me who should have investigated this. And also tell me what would constitute evidence that the bets weren't shady--in fact what would constitute evidence that any given bet isn't shady.
edit: The one question I'm surprised TL didn't ask is whether there have been investigations of other matches or not.
I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
What the does that have to do with anything?
Detective: "So sir, I have some suspicions of you, I am suspicious you committed murder..."
Guilty until proven innocent person: ...
Judge: "That is really convincing, these suspicions you have detective. This conjecture is very substantial, it holds so much weight. The way it points to things... is powerful."
Detective: "I know right. He was near the crime scene. Anybody could have been near the crime scene, but when I went looking this was the guy I found. I looked in the one spot, and I found him there. "
Judge: "So true. Did you know that Sepp Blatter lied to people?"
Detective: "I did, and because Sepp Blatter lied, I am thinking that this person here is also guilty."
Judge: "This is good enough for me... Sir you were guilty from the second we both saw you. We used to love you when you were in your prime as a competitive player, but now that you are not so good and you couldn't find some way to convince us of your innocence, which we stripped from you the second we saw you and created the idea in our minds that you were guilty, we now sentence you! ..."
"You must spend the rest of your life with many of the people in this thread watching every sc2 VOD created from this point forward, you will prosecute everyone that loses a match by a large percentage. Then you will force them to prove that they did everything in their power to win the match beyond a reasonable doubt. If not, then they will be sentenced to join the rest of you in reviewing more VODS until either the peer review is so substantial that every pro player and every spectator are reviewing every game played, or until someone has payed the price. It can be just about anyone, we just have to assume their guilt first."
Detective: "This is a wonderful society we are living in!"
As someone who vehemently believes that MK match-fixed, I have to grudgingly accept the answers and let this one drop. It doesn't mean that I believe MK is innocent, it just means that we'll never be able to conclusively prove it despite all the strong circumstantial evidence.
Hopefully the investigation and possible penalties scare every player who contemplates throwing a match and we won't have this situation anymore. However, I have a bad feeling that it'll just make players be a little more careful about how they match-fix and make sure that there isn't a money-trail or conversation-trail to catch them on.
On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote: I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
It became guilty until proven innocent when there was enough evidence to claim that this is a legitimate possibility. All we are asking for is for a transparent investigation. Which probably will never happen.
On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote: I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
It became guilty until proven innocent when there was enough evidence to claim that this is a legitimate possibility. All we are asking for is for a transparent investigation. Which probably will never happen.
Yeh, throw a guy who has a reputation for both terrible and amazing gameplay under the bus for losing a game like a moron. Did any of you guys watch mkp during 2013? Cause it's almost certain that he was worse then (relative to his peers) then he is now.
We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match.
Might as well pack it in now, because if that match wasn't proof that it was thrown. KeSPA's not only blind, they're stupid
They couldn't find proof from his Phone / Computer, that's how a real investigation goes, sorry if that blows your mind. If there's no direct evidence linking match fixers to MKP you can't prove that he's guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Plenty of guilty people go free because of a lack of evidence in any judicial system, but we rather that than having innocent people convicted for crimes they didn't commit.
On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote: I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
At this point, I think the witch hunters only want one thing: witch burned, regardless of innocence or guilt. (I mean, that's how witch hunters worked back in the day, right?) I'm also starting to think proving MK didn't matchfix is probatio diabolica - ppl can easily interpret a "matchfix! burn him at the stake!" from the craptastic performance that started all this, but there is no real clear-cut piece of "evidence" in this world that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such matchfixing didn't occur.
On June 11 2015 15:59 b0lt wrote: Why won't KeSPA release the replay of the game in question? I don't really see the downside for any party for doing so.
There's a rather obvious downside. People will create conclusions that say he's guilty as well as conclusions that say he's not, and as usual with gaming communities (this one included), the conclusion that allows people to declare someone guilty will be the one people listen to. Just like people still believe that Livibee was boosted or that Maddelisk got Kas DQ'd, there's no convincing people who want to find reasons to hate. The upside is having people stop yelling about the replay. The downside is the entire Western scene turning against one of the most recognizable names in the game.
The team that risks losing sponsorships if it harbors corrupt players investigated the game. The governing body of esports in the entirety of Korea has investigated the game and the player. Nobody with any expert knowledge or authority says that MarineKing is involved in any improper activity. Until we get more than amateur conjecture on the other side, this case is closed, locked, sealed, and filed away.
On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote: I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
At this point, I think the witch hunters only want one thing: witch burned, regardless of innocence or guilt. (I mean, that's how witch hunters worked back in the day, right?) I'm also starting to think proving MK didn't matchfix is probatio diabolica - ppl can easily interpret a "matchfix! burn him at the stake!" from the craptastic performance that started all this, but there is no real clear-cut piece of "evidence" in this world that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such matchfixing didn't occur.
People are quick to judge and slow to change their mind.
This is how to to answer the community properly about a concern. GOM could learn a thing or two about PR from the ways that KeSPA and SpoTV have been handling their's.
We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match.
Might as well pack it in now, because if that match wasn't proof that it was thrown. KeSPA's not only blind, they're stupid
Dont think you quite understand, Even if he was matchfixing, IF THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YOU CANNOT PROSECUTE THEM. They basically said they found no evidence, even checking his phone and computer, so what they should just ban him for life and call up the police? Then what? The police would be like "wheres the evidence?"... "uhhh.. we got none"...... The match itself and the canceled bets are not proof, that is speculation. Proof would be texts/emails between him and the 3rd party involved.
He very well could have match fixed and just hid all his tracks, or maybe he didnt and made a horrid mistake for all the reasons ppl have said, the point is if theres no evidence you cant throw him under the bus. Suspect all you want.
I completely understand Kespa not sharing all the details as they would actually like to catch future match fixing. No point in giving out your strategy.
On June 11 2015 12:55 Doodsmack wrote: Not a sufficient defense of MarineKing. No defense is sufficient without specific explanations of MKP's actions during the match. Why won't they say what questions they asked MarineKing about the match? Of course he could delete messages from his phone and computer - if he has a brain then he deleted them immediately after the conversation.
Dude making a file and stuff like that permanently dissapear is a absurdly time consuming task and require knowledge on IT, if KeSPA is a government organ they would probably have someone to search for the informations.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
your mind is fucked up. It's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm gonna charge you for murder. Find evidence you didnt kill someone, if you dont, you're staying in jail.
I personally believe hes guilty, i also think there is a very strong chance at least several of the others are, but hey what are you going to do other than hope marineking and the other suspected match fixers continue to screw up in ways kespa cant ignore
Id confidently stake my entire net worth that at least some of the matches people including me believe were fixed were indeed fixed, theres enough evidence to convict in the court of public opinion but not the court of law so thats that i guess
Personally i will cheer against marineking san innovation yoda super and b4 from now on and against the teams thst protect them and i think im missing one or two names from the list and thats that i guess. Hopefully they will be too scared to fix more matches and if not then hopefully they get sloppy and leave more evidence for us
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
Are you fucking kidding me ?
Ok. Then, I'll go to every media in France and throw bullshit about EVERYONE I dislike one this planet. Then they'll just go to jail, or be given death penalty, since they are GUILTY until proven innocent.
Hum...
You're basically trolling and I got caught. Sorry.
How the fuck do half the people responding think this is a "good interview" and how can anyone conclude from this that they are doing "good job"? It's a load of PR crap with no information value, as usual. I don't even know why "journalist" (and that's by far not only the case of TL) continue to embarrass themselves by publishing these things as "interviews" when they really don't give more information about anything that a two-line press statement would.
I really wish there were journalist who could give the governing body of our e-sport a really hard time until they would be forced to really say something of substance, but that's sadly completely unrealistic unless SC2 becomes miraculously big in US or Europe, because as of now, we have no leverage on an agency hidden away behind spatial, cultural and language barriers.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA.
Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm gonna charge you for murder. Find evidence you didnt kill someone, if you dont, you're staying in jail.
Excellent questions, but the answer where just random PR sentences that can be used by any company in any circonstances. You can switch answers between the different questions without losing any bit of information. I'm hugely disappointed. This is not an interview, this is a press release
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA.
Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't.
No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA.
Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't.
No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system.
I thought it was pretty clear T.O.P. doesn't think MarineKing should be in jail right now. The "in my mind" is pretty important in his post. And goddammit, I know how justice works (at least in that regard), thank you very much. But "justice" and individuals are different.
Edit: Although, I do believe that T.O.P. mispoke when he asked for proof from Kespa that MK is innocent ;D. What he could have asked for is more details about their investigation process.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA.
Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't.
No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system.
I thought it was pretty clear T.O.P. doesn't think MarineKing should be in jail right now. The "in my mind" is pretty important in his post. And goddammit, I know how justice works (at least in that regard), thank you very much. But "justice" and individuals are different.
Edit: Although, I do believe that T.O.P. mispoke when he asked for proof from Kespa that MK is innocent ;D. What he could have asked for is more details about their investigation process.
Ah yeah sorry I didn't read T.O.P's post well enough d: I was more thinking of posts like that (emboldenings are mine) when I posted mine : + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2015 12:10 plasmidghost wrote: I wish there were similar punishments in Dota 2 for matchfixing, I don't like that a player that threw a game is allowed to play at the biggest tournament in the game's history. I don't care if it was one time or if the game didn't matter, he should not be allowed to play in premier tournaments anymore.
On June 11 2015 12:55 Doodsmack wrote: Not a sufficient defense of MarineKing. No defense is sufficient without specific explanations of MKP's actions during the match. Why won't they say what questions they asked MarineKing about the match? Of course he could delete messages from his phone and computer - if he has a brain then he deleted them immediately after the conversation.
For the "why aren't they releasing the replay"-chanters. What would be the use of it? There is almost no way to prove via replay the guiltiness of a matchfixer. He'd have to click on the spine or stay with his screen on the creep for a few seconds to be considered guilty by high probability. Problem is it's quite unlikely that a match fixing pro would do that kind of stuff because even the dumbest pros would be aware of the suspiciousness in doing that. So everything we could learn from the replay would be, what we already know: Marineking played either suspicious or very bad. The next step would be to check his personal contact data which had been done obviously by kespa. So nothing would be gained by releasing the replay apart from more pitchforking.
I personally think, MK is innocent while his game vs Byul is definitely suspicious. Reason is his typical "ranting to myself in the booth"-reaction as he loses the game. He wouldn't have a reason to be that upset, if he played bad intentionally and neither I think he's such a good actor, nor that he would come to the idea of faking this part of his way of losing, too.
joke statement. they have zero interest in cleaning up their own house, and instead are interested in playing whack-a-mole with domestic illegal betting sites. kill one? new one comes up. kill one? new one comes up. or people bet peer to peer. or on sites like pinnacle that are perfectly legal in their jurisdiction.
On June 11 2015 20:02 sixfour wrote: joke statement. they have zero interest in cleaning up their own house, and instead are interested in playing whack-a-mole with domestic illegal betting sites. kill one? new one comes up. kill one? new one comes up. or people bet peer to peer. or on sites like pinnacle that are perfectly legal in their jurisdiction.
Ye, totally. Better they do nothing at all and let everything sink.
why can't they just answer the most important questions... WHERE was he looking when the spine and the creep entered his base for A MINUTE WHY did he go triple CC WHY did he leave the reapers at home
'oh our super experts know that he is 100% innocent, we even checked his fb messages'
On June 11 2015 22:12 SharkStarcraft wrote: why can't they just answer the most important questions... WHERE was he looking when the spine and the creep entered his base for A MINUTE WHY did he go triple CC WHY did he leave the reapers at home
'oh our super experts know that he is 100% innocent, we even checked his fb messages'
This is the best you will get as an answer to those questions, though you probably won't believe his version.
On June 11 2015 18:57 oGoZenob wrote: Excellent questions, but the answer where just random PR sentences that can be used by any company in any circonstances. You can switch answers between the different questions without losing any bit of information. I'm hugely disappointed. This is not an interview, this is a press release
I agree, nothing new, they just said: We check his computer, his phone and the replay, but more important: MK told us he is inoccent so everything is ok, the gambling sites are the evil, but our players dont rig matches, even when the match looks like 99.9% rigged.
On June 11 2015 12:10 plasmidghost wrote: I wish there were similar punishments in Dota 2 for matchfixing, I don't like that a player that threw a game is allowed to play at the biggest tournament in the game's history. I don't care if it was one time or if the game didn't matter, he should not be allowed to play in premier tournaments anymore.
This annoys the hell out of me in Dota too, but for some reason fans just don't give a fuck in that game. Every time someone fixes as match everyone goes well everyone makes mistakes let him back in he's paid the price after a few months, it's insane.
I don't think that DotA's ever had a match fixing scandal to the same degree that BW did, but I've only really followed DotA since TI3.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Any time you have an internal investigation of an organization by the organization itself, it is a ridiculous situation and should be viewed as comedy as it is not serious. Anyone who understands what the term "conflict of interests" laughs at this situation.
Spot on. As someone who (and on hindsight probably incorrectly) defended San after his questionable outing, I had no doubt that the MK game was a complete farce. His overwhelming body language (a man who felt sick with himself for the choices he'd made) during the key moments alone was a dead giveaway. Wolf's observation that he'd never seen him look this shaken before. The absurd betting lines. And most of all, his play. I've seen many epic MK meltdowns/failures the last few seasons in PL. This wasn't one of them. I'd like to think that there were strong outside factors mostly beyond MK's control, and my main concern was that he would be okay going forward. For anyone that believes KeSPA here, I'm envious of your bliss.
Some of the questions are a bit too generic and didnt even need Kespa's answer.
If there is a member in the community that can specialist on this matter [analyze the replays of games suspected of match fixing] we are more than welcome to have them contact us.
Is it possible ? How to proove match fixing ? /troll mode ON Because it's ez to be innocent by default.
Is KeSPA willing to allow a small, independent panel of players and community members to analyze the replays (which will not be shared) of games suspected of match fixing? Why or why not?
If there is a member in the community that can specialist on this matter we are more than welcome to have them contact us.
So I'm not sure if this has been brought up in the thread yet. Do we have candidates?
Thanks TL, good questions generally. Although, and I said this before, concerning the MK match, it's not just the spinecrawler that makes it suspicious. He claims to expect a speedling all-in from what he scouted but that makes no sense at all.
Also, of course, the suspicious betting patterns deserve a KeSPA rsponse but
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
shows they're unwilling to answer questions related to that.
As a side note I want to point out that it scares me to see some people post KeSPA = cool style responses. Not that KeSPA necessarily is in the wrong here but seriously people, a little more critical thinking pls, don't just bow to the authorities.
Is KeSPA willing to allow a small, independent panel of players and community members to analyze the replays (which will not be shared) of games suspected of match fixing? Why or why not?
If there is a member in the community that can specialist on this matter we are more than welcome to have them contact us.
So I'm not sure if this has been brought up in the thread yet. Do we have candidates?
You misread the answer. It said "No matter who will speak up, we'll instantly dismiss them as incompetent and be done with it."
Snarkiness aside, there is little chance Kespa is going to trust outsiders on this.
Is KeSPA willing to allow a small, independent panel of players and community members to analyze the replays (which will not be shared) of games suspected of match fixing? Why or why not?
If there is a member in the community that can specialist on this matter we are more than welcome to have them contact us.
So I'm not sure if this has been brought up in the thread yet. Do we have candidates?
I am a specialist.
The first question I am surprised hasn't already been asked is, "Did anyone bother to interview Marineking's hands?"
Marineking was there, BUT both his HANDS were causing the actions! I propose we split both his HANDS up in two separate boxes with recorders and a list of questions to answer. Let them tell both their stories and then put them in the same room together to keep a close EYE out for any inconsistencies.
Imagine what we could glean about mouse and keyboard input. Was the keyboard hand even aware of the mouse hand and the cursor relationship to a spine crawler?
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Pay attention, or don't claim shit like that.
Show me a previous announcement from KeSPA itself and I'll take it back. The only one I've seen was from Team MVP.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Pay attention, or don't claim shit like that.
Show me a previous announcement from KeSPA itself and I'll take it back. The only one I've seen was from Team MVP.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Pay attention, or don't claim shit like that.
Show me a previous announcement from KeSPA itself and I'll take it back. The only one I've seen was from Team MVP.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Pay attention, or don't claim shit like that.
Show me a previous announcement from KeSPA itself and I'll take it back. The only one I've seen was from Team MVP.
On June 11 2015 23:38 Mozdk wrote: Hah. They just shot themselves in the foot.
"That was one of the matches we believed was suspicious and we thoroughly investigated Marineking. We cannot reveal everything to the community, however what we can answer is that members of our match fixing committee reviewed the replays and concluded that the game was suspicious enough to open an investigation. We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match."
The last announcement was that they had PROVED it wasn't matchfixing. If this isn't enough to convince everyone that this is some corrupt bs, then nothing ever will.
There was no previous announcement by KeSPA so that logic doesn't work.
Pay attention, or don't claim shit like that.
Show me a previous announcement from KeSPA itself and I'll take it back. The only one I've seen was from Team MVP.
I can't believe how much people read this PR bullshit and take it as fact. The whole interview consists of them saying "Trust us, we're tough on match fixers".
Do the Kespa people even have any incentive to catch match fixers? I wouldn't be surprised if they were afraid the SC2 scene will decline like broodwar if players are convicted of match fixing. If that happens, a lot of the Kespa people would lose their jobs.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
On June 12 2015 03:58 T.O.P. wrote: I can't believe how much people read this PR bullshit and take it as fact. The whole interview consists of them saying "Trust us, we're tough on match fixers".
Do the Kespa people even have any incentive to catch match fixers? I wouldn't be surprised if they were afraid the SC2 scene will decline like broodwar if players are convicted of match fixing. If that happens, a lot of the Kespa people would lose their jobs.
Why don't you think about it this way: Is there any empirical evidence that could possibly convince you that your assumptions are wrong? If the answer is no, then you are hopeless.
On June 12 2015 03:58 T.O.P. wrote: I can't believe how much people read this PR bullshit and take it as fact. The whole interview consists of them saying "Trust us, we're tough on match fixers".
Do the Kespa people even have any incentive to catch match fixers? I wouldn't be surprised if they were afraid the SC2 scene will decline like broodwar if players are convicted of match fixing. If that happens, a lot of the Kespa people would lose their jobs.
Neither do many people read the kespa statements as facts, nor are they saying "Trust us, we're tough on match fixers". Most people - including me - believe, that kespa did, what they said, which is checking the replay (which probably didn't give new insights), grilling MK and checking his personal data. As I learned in this thread they also investigated on other people like Casters just to play safe. They took several months to investigate and stated now, that they didn't find proof of matchfixing according to MK.
They're not saying, that MK is 100% innocent, but they can't judge him as guilty and so it would be against law to penalize him.
For your speculations on kespas motivations on catching match fixers: could be true, could be not true - you're free to investigate in that case, but ranting online won't make that case clearer.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
I agree. Osama Bin Laden was innocent.
Was this really necessary? Really...
I educated myself about the b-betting lines, I suggest you to do the same.
And Chuddinaters comment wasn't the best as well tbh
On June 12 2015 02:58 Canucklehead wrote: Always knew mkp was innocent. Glad to see kespa investigated and came to the same conclusion.
Theres a big difference between innocent and not legally convicted as guilty
Marineking is not legally guilty, but there is a greater than 95% chance that he is guilty in reality as it would require a ridiculous set of coincidences for him not to be
Oj simpson wasnt legally guilty of killing his wife either but everyone knows he is overwhelmingly likely to be guilty
If they didnt find a smoking gun so be it; he doesnt get punished but that doesnt mean he didnt fix the match
On a side note i nominate huk kane welmu or rekrul for our independent expert to analyse the replay if possible. I doubt that will eventuate though. Pretty frustrating kespa wont comment on their interaction w pinnacle i may email pinny and ask if theyre willing to
On June 11 2015 14:17 RenSC2 wrote: As someone who vehemently believes that MK match-fixed, I have to grudgingly accept the answers and let this one drop. It doesn't mean that I believe MK is innocent, it just means that we'll never be able to conclusively prove it despite all the strong circumstantial evidence.
Hopefully the investigation and possible penalties scare every player who contemplates throwing a match and we won't have this situation anymore. However, I have a bad feeling that it'll just make players be a little more careful about how they match-fix and make sure that there isn't a money-trail or conversation-trail to catch them on.
This post carries the stench of truth.
We wanted an investigation, we got an investigation. Was it a thorough, sincere investigation? Maybe. Was MKP simply so good at hiding his tracks that no one but Sherlock Holmes would find him out? Maybe. But our legal options have been exhausted.
I wish I could say that this renewed my interest in SC2, but it doesn't.
On June 12 2015 01:37 Penev wrote: Thanks TL, good questions generally. Although, and I said this before, concerning the MK match, it's not just the spinecrawler that makes it suspicious. He claims to expect a speedling all-in from what he scouted but that makes no sense at all.
Also, of course, the suspicious betting patterns deserve a KeSPA rsponse but
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
shows they're unwilling to answer questions related to that.
As a side note I want to point out that it scares me to see some people post KeSPA = cool style responses. Not that KeSPA necessarily is in the wrong here but seriously people, a little more critical thinking pls, don't just bow to the authorities.
Yeah no kidding, people look at the accusations so one-dimensionally, it's almost cringeworthy.
Scouting the LATE pool and no Hatch in the natural -> Doesn't scout with Reapers even though there was little risk of losing them, not playing safe even after having scouted the odd opening build (No speedlings possible at the time) -> Puts down 3rd CC -> Fails to check for or notice creep/spine crawler = Okay so maybe he played without his brain plugged in for that match
-> and THEN you have the bizarro BETTING LINES that got voided. = Implying a significant amount of people set it up or knew the outcome in advance
Call it witch-hunting, but in this case the "witch" is pretty much flying around on a broom and casting spells in people's faces. Sure, there could be a reasonable explanation, but ultimately it looks so blatantly suspicious that you can't fault people for feeling that way.
Heck, people are so quick to dismiss some well thought out posts. There is a difference between "Hmm, it did look a bit weird, but I suppose KeSPA did a good enough job that I feel MKP is innocent" and "Lol look those naysayers are wrong KeSPA said everything was fine!" - despite everything that was pointed out.
Anyway, I suppose you still can't charge him since there isn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Besides, this investigation looks like it's going nowhere so... meh. Apathy.
Edit: Oh, and thanks TL for getting us an interview - considering the circumstances, that couldn't have been easy.
it's funny how many people are quick to trash the concept of statistics and betting line anomalies as a bunch of arcane nonsense just because they don't understand it. even if you believe MKP is innocent, and even if he is, it still makes you look ignorant as fuck to just dismiss solid data from people with experience in a field you're not familiar with as useless or irrelevant. again, even if he IS INNOCENT it's still worth looking at the data and asking questions, because why would we want to be willfully ignorant or choose to ignore suggestive information?
i'm pretty sure if hillary clinton suddenly won 2016 with 85% of the vote and an official investigation concluded that there was nothing irregular about the election no one would be saying "pfffft, your statistics and probabilities don't mean anything"
On June 12 2015 08:06 brickrd wrote: it's funny how many people are quick to trash the concept of statistics and betting line anomalies as a bunch of arcane nonsense just because they don't understand it. even if you believe MKP is innocent, and even if he is, it still makes you look ignorant as fuck to just dismiss solid data from people with experience in a field you're not familiar with as useless or irrelevant. again, even if he IS INNOCENT it's still worth looking at the data and asking questions, because why would we want to be willfully ignorant or choose to ignore suggestive information?
i'm pretty sure if hillary clinton suddenly won 2016 with 85% of the vote and an official investigation concluded that there was nothing irregular about the election no one would be saying "pfffft, your statistics and probabilities don't mean anything"
I know right, even without going too much into learning it, just by following the other threads a little, in layman's terms it's pretty much: Oh noes, just before the match started a whole bunch of people placed a bet on the person at the last minute (who turned out to be the eventual winner) that it was enough to make the odds go all wonky. (Apparently like 10:1 odds)
Very good PR by Kespa but I'm still absolutely convinced MKP threw, as have others less blatantly. I guess keeping sponsors is more important than exposing match-fixers. The fact this 'committee' hasn't found one case of match-fixing (especially from Prime) makes it a joke, just Kespa's way of making it look like they're taking it seriously.
On June 11 2015 20:02 sixfour wrote: joke statement. they have zero interest in cleaning up their own house
I'm not sure what people want Kespa to do, lynch mob MKP? Vigilante justice with no due process or evidence? Think about this from their point of view, even if the head of kespa himself thinks with almost certainty that MKP threw the match just as you do, he's got no hard evidence. The BW match fixing scandal was all about hard evidence. Do you honestly think if Kespa denounced MKP as a match fixer with out actual physical evidence that it would be a net positive for the community in the short or long run? Forget about the sponsors, think about how all the players and coaches might feel, especially the ones who aren't playing in peak condition or up to fan expectations.
At best the odds and game itself is circumstantial evidence (pretty damning circumstantial evidence, but that gets you jack shit in court). We see players throw a match on his own with out any presumed outside influence due to a poor mental state, lack of understanding, or split moment frustration (literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of those games). Hell every single team kill tend to be weird as fuck and you can throw accusations of bracket rigging in any tournament. If you can't find physical evidence or financial transactions then you got nothing.
On June 12 2015 09:44 Caihead wrote: I'm not sure what people want Kespa to do, lynch mob MKP? Vigilante justice with no due process or evidence? Think about this from their point of view, even if the head of kespa himself thinks with almost certainty that MKP threw the match just as you do, he's got no hard evidence. The BW match fixing scandal was all about hard evidence. Do you honestly think if Kespa denounced MKP as a match fixer with out actual physical evidence that it would be a net positive for the community in the short or long run? Forget about the sponsors, think about how all the players and coaches might feel, especially the ones who aren't playing in peak condition or up to fan expectations.
At best the odds and game itself is circumstantial evidence (pretty damning circumstantial evidence, but that gets you jack shit in court). We see players throw a match on his own with out any presumed outside influence due to a poor mental state, lack of understanding, or split moment frustration (literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of those games). Hell every single team kill tend to be weird as fuck and you can throw accusations of bracket rigging in any tournament. If you can't find physical evidence or financial transactions then you got nothing.
pretty much this. Anyone whose has seen my posts in the other MK thread will know that I firmly believe that he threw the game based on the circumstantial evidence, however, with no hard evidence, one can't just convict MK based on what we have. In other words, there's nothing else that can be done atm.
Funny, people were complaining that Kespa wasn't doing much, ignoring the situation and were calling for an investigation in previous threads and now that Kespa has investigated and came to the conclusion that they didn't find any hard evidence, they are getting riled up about that as well. Can never please some people. Personally, I still think he threw but not going to shove him under a bus without having some hard evidence that can be used in a court of law. It's probably best to just accept things as they are and hope that if any other pros are planning to throw a match in the near future, they would reconsider that thought after this incident.
Nice to see Kespa talking a bit more. I'm really glad they are reviewing everything and gathering evidence before condemning anyone: its just sad to see people abandoning the idea that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
On June 12 2015 09:44 Caihead wrote: I'm not sure what people want Kespa to do, lynch mob MKP? Vigilante justice with no due process or evidence? Think about this from their point of view, even if the head of kespa himself thinks with almost certainty that MKP threw the match just as you do, he's got no hard evidence. The BW match fixing scandal was all about hard evidence. Do you honestly think if Kespa denounced MKP as a match fixer with out actual physical evidence that it would be a net positive for the community in the short or long run? Forget about the sponsors, think about how all the players and coaches might feel, especially the ones who aren't playing in peak condition or up to fan expectations.
At best the odds and game itself is circumstantial evidence (pretty damning circumstantial evidence, but that gets you jack shit in court). We see players throw a match on his own with out any presumed outside influence due to a poor mental state, lack of understanding, or split moment frustration (literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of those games). Hell every single team kill tend to be weird as fuck and you can throw accusations of bracket rigging in any tournament. If you can't find physical evidence or financial transactions then you got nothing.
Pretty much, this bit is weird though:
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
I loved the bit about KeSPA's newfound enthusiasm about a "member in the community that can specialist on this matter" contacting them, and how it completely contradicts the fact that as of January 2015 Pinnacle had already expressed a willingness to cooperate with KeSPA but was never contacted, and Lichter and Swoopae had both tried to get in touch with KeSPA regarding Pinnacle, but heard nothing.
This has conflict of interest written all over it. KeSPA has absolutely nothing to gain by allowing others to poke around in their affairs, and everything to lose.
There's nothing more to be done about the MKP situation, but nothing has been solved. All we can do is cross our fingers that players will be too scared to try match fixing now. Is that realistic? I doubt it.
Those asking what more we want KeSPA to do - it's pretty simple. Explain MKP's stated reasoning for the specific actions in his match, and explain the questions KeSPA asked so we can see if they were tough. Why not give us any information about their discussion with MKP? Also, why not tell us about their interaction with Pinnacle? Their investigation could not possibly be thorough without any interaction with Pinnacle.
In short, KeSPA has not given enough information to counter the stack of evidence sitting on Marine King. Essentially KeSPA has said "just trust us".
And tbh, the fact that no independent investigator was hired makes the "investigation" kind of a joke. The organization with a vested financial interest in the investigation outcome is the one that conducted the investigation.
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
I loved the bit about KeSPA's newfound enthusiasm about a "member in the community that can specialist on this matter" contacting them, and how it completely contradicts the fact that as of January 2015 Pinnacle had already expressed a willingness to cooperate with KeSPA but was never contacted, and Lichter and Swoopae had both tried to get in touch with KeSPA regarding Pinnacle, but heard nothing.
This has conflict of interest written all over it. KeSPA has absolutely nothing to gain by allowing others to poke around in their affairs, and everything to lose.
There's nothing more to be done about the MKP situation, but nothing has been solved. All we can do is cross our fingers that players will be too scared to try match fixing now. Is that realistic? I doubt it.
I guess with members of the community they refer to a non korean Pro who knows what they are talking about.Nothing against Swoopae but he is not really a sc2 community member since he does not play and only bet on games.The same with pinnacle. Kespa has not to answer to NOONE. They are what they are,and it never changed. We will have to accept their answer till a real proof is there.
On June 11 2015 13:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What's your point? I'm sure Alfred Dreyfus also claimed his innocence.
His point was that just because an organization like FIFA or Kespa says they aren't corrupt, they still could be.
Any time you have an internal investigation of an organization by the organization itself, it is a ridiculous situation and should be viewed as comedy as it is not serious. Anyone who understands what the term "conflict of interests" laughs at this situation.
Anyway it didn't seem like a live interview, so of course it comes off like a bunch of softball questions with indirect answers. I would have liked someone to grill this guy and get real explanations about why they can't reveal everything about the MKP situation, why they can't share replays, why it matters that people know what their committee looks for, and get some real evidence that the bets weren't shady for MKP-Byul ect.
They basically said "We investigated everything thoroughly and by the book, but we can't tell you what we did." And that doesn't mean anything.
Nice. Now please tell me who should have investigated this. And also tell me what would constitute evidence that the bets weren't shady--in fact what would constitute evidence that any given bet isn't shady.
Just because an internal investigation is terrible way to investigate anything doesn't mean I know who should have investigated it. Those are two different things, pointing out a problem and solving it.
That being said there are plenty of third party organizations they could have hired to do an investigation. The NFL hires them all the time, and then Roger Goodell looks like an idiot when they don't side with him. So he isn't hiring one for the Tom Brady appeal. Big surprise.
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
What the does that have to do with anything?
Detective: "So sir, I have some suspicions of you, I am suspicious you committed murder..."
Guilty until proven innocent person: ...
I don't think you understand how the legal system or analogies works. Starting with the former, not everything is treated like murder. In fact, nothing but murder is.
If you get pulled over by the police and received ticket for going 96 mph when you're actually doing 65 mph in a 65 mph zone (I say this because it happened to my grandfather when I was in the car) and you challenge it in court, you'll lose if the judge wants you to, it doesn't matter what actually happened.
You're guilty if the judge says so, and they don't have to prove much (proved nothing in the case of my grandfather). Certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.
And the reason it works like that is because if you're guilty for speeding, the loss of $150 bucks isn't life ending, so the wrongly accused (like my grandfather) don't suffer a great deal. Going to jail for life for murder is life ending, so the wrongly accused do suffer a great deal.
Now we're talking about fixing matches in a video game. While it needs more evidence than a speeding ticket to prove that he isn't automatically guilty, the burden of proof doesn't come anywhere close to murder.
So don't pretend it does.
As for the analogy, his point was that just because FIFA and Kespa say they are clean, doesn't mean they are. Especially when all we have to go by is an internal investigation.
One question for you guys that are saying KeSPA needs to consult with Pinnacle:
Is Pinnacle a Stakeholder to KeSPA? In short and at face value - I'd probably say no.
If that's the case, then it is highly unlikely that they will be working with Pinnacle.
However if they are working with them but both parties have agree to stay silent then a reason why might be because of this: How would it look if your country condemns gambling but one of your Government Departments publicly declares that they are liaising with a gambling organisation? So perhaps to not look contradictory to the public, no public announcement / declaration can be made.
Personally I don't think KeSPA is working with Pinnacle as KeSPA has shown that they don't work with foreign organisations unless there is a benefit involved to them directly (remember when Destiny host his tournament but KeSPA prevented their players from playing in it because there wasn't anything that Destiny could provide to them?)
And to you guys that are saying that KeSPA is sweeping it under the carpet to protect themselves... If they really did think MarineKing fixed but didn't want to damage the scene...what say they "forced him into retirement" as punishment?
I remember the site manager for a company I worked for had essentially cooked the books in her previous company before coming to us. When it hit the media that this woman was going to be prosecuted for fraud as a result of an audit into the other company's books; my company (which is a multinational btw - and as such I cannot name them) decided that it was in their best interest to ask this woman to resign than fire her (they could have fired her because she lied and said that she had no pending court cases when she signed her contract) which may have caused a media frenzy for us, as well as bringing unnecessary audit and tax investigation attention to us.
Similarly, I think this is a route that KeSPA would take if they were aware of their player corruption and confronted them about it without letting the greater public knowing about it. I mean hey if they went down this road it'll be all hush hush right? Since the player wouldn't admit to match-fixing and the employees wouldn't risk their jobs.
Anyway that's my 2 cents on the subject, with a little bit of food for thought. Only MarineKing (and if he did, his benefactors) knows whether he match fixed or not. And for a guy that's so emotional... if he's masked his guilt this well so far... he's probably as good of an actor as The Blade Runner (aka. Oscar Pistorius).
On June 12 2015 09:44 Caihead wrote: I'm not sure what people want Kespa to do, lynch mob MKP? Vigilante justice with no due process or evidence? Think about this from their point of view, even if the head of kespa himself thinks with almost certainty that MKP threw the match just as you do, he's got no hard evidence. The BW match fixing scandal was all about hard evidence. Do you honestly think if Kespa denounced MKP as a match fixer with out actual physical evidence that it would be a net positive for the community in the short or long run? Forget about the sponsors, think about how all the players and coaches might feel, especially the ones who aren't playing in peak condition or up to fan expectations.
At best the odds and game itself is circumstantial evidence (pretty damning circumstantial evidence, but that gets you jack shit in court). We see players throw a match on his own with out any presumed outside influence due to a poor mental state, lack of understanding, or split moment frustration (literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of those games). Hell every single team kill tend to be weird as fuck and you can throw accusations of bracket rigging in any tournament. If you can't find physical evidence or financial transactions then you got nothing.
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
voided bets aren't evidences. That's the main problem it makes everything highly sucpicious but you can't prove the match-fixing only with voided bets.
On June 12 2015 09:44 Caihead wrote: I'm not sure what people want Kespa to do, lynch mob MKP? Vigilante justice with no due process or evidence? Think about this from their point of view, even if the head of kespa himself thinks with almost certainty that MKP threw the match just as you do, he's got no hard evidence. The BW match fixing scandal was all about hard evidence. Do you honestly think if Kespa denounced MKP as a match fixer with out actual physical evidence that it would be a net positive for the community in the short or long run? Forget about the sponsors, think about how all the players and coaches might feel, especially the ones who aren't playing in peak condition or up to fan expectations.
At best the odds and game itself is circumstantial evidence (pretty damning circumstantial evidence, but that gets you jack shit in court). We see players throw a match on his own with out any presumed outside influence due to a poor mental state, lack of understanding, or split moment frustration (literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of those games). Hell every single team kill tend to be weird as fuck and you can throw accusations of bracket rigging in any tournament. If you can't find physical evidence or financial transactions then you got nothing.
Pretty much, this bit is weird though:
In addition to the previous questions, TeamLiquid inquired about the role (if any) Pinnacle is playing in any investigations. KeSPA declined to comment on questions relating to this.
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
voided bets aren't evidences. That's the main problem it makes everything highly sucpicious but you can't prove the match-fixing only with voided bets.
Hence the "circumstantial".
It is very strange if KeSPA isn't cooperating with Pinnacle concerning the investigation because Pinnacle manages the accounts of people who, allegedly, knew the outcome of at least seven(!) matches so far.
The most scrutinized game so far is MarineKing vs ByuL due to the voided bets and the nature of the game. Team MVP has made a statement claiming that the loss was not a thrown game. However, the VOD alone has given the community a reason to doubt that conclusion. MarineKing clearly saw a dot on his mini map. Did he go there using his POV? What was MarineKing doing during the time the creep/spinecrawler was visible on the mini map? Is there any reason for MarineKing not to check his mini map? Did MarineKing do anything out of the ordinary during the rush? Please walk us through your analysis of the replay.
Stringing questions together like this is the most surefire way to get almost none of them answered.
Good job on TL for making this happen. Sadly the answers don't convince me of anything. What I get from all this is "we know there are individuals who have tried and will try to match fix" and yet they haven't done anything serious yet. Their "council of specialists" sounds a bit like bs to me really.
It is very strange if KeSPA isn't cooperating with Pinnacle concerning the investigation because Pinnacle manages the accounts of people who, allegedly, knew the outcome of at least seven(!) matches so far.
You'd think that, but Kespa's a domestic organisation - they probably think all they need to do is to try to ensure that things look OK to the domestic audience. Why would they collaborate with a company that's offering services that, while perfectly legal in the markets they offer it, is illegal in Korea and is only going to point to obvious issues, when they can just ignore them and not have to make difficult decisions?
It is very strange if KeSPA isn't cooperating with Pinnacle concerning the investigation because Pinnacle manages the accounts of people who, allegedly, knew the outcome of at least seven(!) matches so far.
You'd think that, but Kespa's a domestic organisation - they probably think all they need to do is to try to ensure that things look OK to the domestic audience. Why would they collaborate with a company that's offering services that, while perfectly legal in the markets they offer it, is illegal in Korea and is only going to point to obvious issues, when they can just ignore them and not have to make difficult decisions?
Well that's obviously the question. But if so, it's not going to work. South Korea is not.. well, North Korea.
I don't think betting being illegal has anything to with it btw
On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote: They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
OK - I hear what you are saying.
MarineKing at this point is guilty of: 1) Playing like a silver league 6 year old. (never being minimap aware.) 2) Refusing to learn ( that stupid triple CC build he insists on using repeatedly.) 3) Having terrible nerves and being emotionally susceptible to breakage. 4) Failing his team. 5) Disappointing his fans.
But
He is innocent of matchfixing in the eyes of KESPA.
Sepp Blatter also insisted that FIFA was clean and that they had nothing to hide.
What the does that have to do with anything?
Detective: "So sir, I have some suspicions of you, I am suspicious you committed murder..."
Guilty until proven innocent person: ...
And the reason it works like that is because if you're guilty for speeding, the loss of $150 bucks isn't life ending, so the wrongly accused (like my grandfather) don't suffer a great deal. Going to jail for life for murder is life ending, so the wrongly accused do suffer a great deal.
Now we're talking about fixing matches in a video game. While it needs more evidence than a speeding ticket to prove that he isn't automatically guilty, the burden of proof doesn't come anywhere close to murder.
considering the voided bets are the strongest circumstantial evidence we have. Could mean they do this for investigative reasons (and they are actually working together with Pinnacle on this) but I dunno..
I loved the bit about KeSPA's newfound enthusiasm about a "member in the community that can specialist on this matter" contacting them, and how it completely contradicts the fact that as of January 2015 Pinnacle had already expressed a willingness to cooperate with KeSPA but was never contacted, and Lichter and Swoopae had both tried to get in touch with KeSPA regarding Pinnacle, but heard nothing.
This has conflict of interest written all over it. KeSPA has absolutely nothing to gain by allowing others to poke around in their affairs, and everything to lose.
There's nothing more to be done about the MKP situation, but nothing has been solved. All we can do is cross our fingers that players will be too scared to try match fixing now. Is that realistic? I doubt it.
I guess with members of the community they refer to a non korean Pro who knows what they are talking about.Nothing against Swoopae but he is not really a sc2 community member since he does not play and only bet on games.The same with pinnacle. Kespa has not to answer to NOONE. They are what they are,and it never changed. We will have to accept their answer till a real proof is there.
For what its worth i do play and have lurked tl since sc1; but im not a masters plus player and as such im not qualified to comment on the thought process of progamers during matches; that said as a diamond id have done a better job trying to defend byuls all in than mkp did given the info available at the time. Someone like huk or kane would be perfect.
MKP was never known for being the brightest player. If Kespa says they searched his computer and his cell phone and couldn't find any evidence, I'll believe them. I mean they banned Savior for life, they wouldn't go out of their way to protect Marineking. I find it odd that they wouldn't simply release the replay though, it couldn't possibly hurt.
At this point, any one still defending MarineKing either doesn't play the game, plays at an incredibly low level or both. Considering the number of people who kept mentioning that MK could have thought the spine was an overlord despite being off-screen is pretty good evidence for this.
He is innocent until proven guilty of course, but only where there's reasonable doubt. In this case, there is no doubt. He ignores a spine, does a retarded build, ignores creep and doesn't scout. Even when asked in an interview, the best he can come up with is that he thought it was a speedling all in. Which given the fact he scouts the late pool and gas, is just as impossible as ignoring the spine is. The fact he is so clearly guilty that he isn't even able to come up with a credible lie is proof enough.
And then there's the betting lines. All of the above proves a throw, the betting is the last spike nailing MarineKing to the cross. He's innocent until proven guilty in as much as this isn't evidence to convict him in a court of law, they would need the paper trail. But it is enough evidence for anyone who plays starcraft to say he threw the game, and given the betting that occurred, that it was a match-fix.
The most scrutinized game so far is MarineKing vs ByuL due to the voided bets and the nature of the game. Team MVP has made a statement claiming that the loss was not a thrown game. However, the VOD alone has given the community a reason to doubt that conclusion. MarineKing clearly saw a dot on his mini map. Did he go there using his POV? What was MarineKing doing during the time the creep/spinecrawler was visible on the mini map? Is there any reason for MarineKing not to check his mini map? Did MarineKing do anything out of the ordinary during the rush? Please walk us through your analysis of the replay.
Stringing questions together like this is the most surefire way to get almost none of them answered.
There are a few questions that have too many components, but I thought this one was fine. All the questions lead on from one another, and you can hardly ask them as 4 separate questions given the limited number of questions available. The fact that KeSPA didn't even bother with this one is terrible.
EPT
. And believe me, I'm just waiting to be convinced, basically.
