Greatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 12

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Rocket-Bear

3070 Posts

April 25 2015 22:18 GMT

#221

On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote:
parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain

It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

April 25 2015 22:19 GMT

#222

On April 26 2015 07:18 Rocket-Bear wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value

dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg

UberNuB

United States365 Posts

April 25 2015 22:20 GMT

#223

Rain, Innovation and Zest are the only three that seem to be rated way too high, imo.

Rain and Innovation are always touted as two of the best, but rarely deliver. Zest was dominating when Protoss as a hole was kinda brokenly destroying everything.. :\

ZigguratOfUr

Iraq16955 Posts

April 25 2015 22:22 GMT

#224

One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.

Die4Ever

United States17750 Posts

April 25 2015 22:28 GMT

#225

On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.

I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?

ZigguratOfUr

Iraq16955 Posts

April 25 2015 22:31 GMT

#226

On April 26 2015 07:28 Die4Ever wrote:

Show nested quote +

I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?

It isn't that simple since tournaments aren't evenly distributed throughout the year either, more of them happening in the summer and the fall. And in addition there are more higher level tournaments in the fall, since various circuits culminate then. Not sure.

And then again, maybe I'm being too picky. There's only so many variables you can factor in before your system becomes unmanageable.

JacobShock

Denmark2485 Posts

April 25 2015 22:34 GMT

#227

In my eyes Taeja is the greatest sc2 player of all time. The only one I would ever dare call Bonjwa. At one point no one could beat him and I cant remember how many times I have rooted against him in vain. He was just scary and unbreakable, despite nagging injuries. However I can fully understand the justification for putting him in at number 3, as foreign tournament wins just aren't nearly as prestigious and I am sure you can make great arguments for Life and MVP as well.

Loving this feature btw.

Feisty

Vatican City State35 Posts

April 25 2015 22:35 GMT

#228

" I know Ryu is not a strong character, if I wanted to win I could pick another character." - Daigo the salty beast Umehara

Yakikorosu

1203 Posts

April 25 2015 22:45 GMT

#229

Now that it's clear PartinG won't be on this list, I have to post one illustrative point:

PartinG Premier Tournament Wins: 4
PartinG Premier Tournament Second Place: 5
PartinG Major Tournament Wins: 7
PartinG Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #6 all time
PartinG All Time-Aligulac Ratings: #1 Protoss Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvT Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvZ Rating Ever Acheived (no, not in the WoL era), #2 PvP Rating Ever Acheived

soO Premier Tournament Wins: 0
soO Premier Tournament Second Place: 5
soO Major Tournament Wins: 1
soO Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #42 all time
soO All Time Aligulac Rating: Not in top 5 for any matchup

So yes, I think it's quite clear who, "objectively" is the better player.

PartinG should be #4 on this list. Mvp, Life and MAYBE TaeJa are the only better players in history. It absolutely cannot be argued objectively with any degree of fairness that players like soO, MKP or Rain are better all time than he is.

United States2922 Posts

April 25 2015 22:49 GMT

#230

On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote:
Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"

Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.

ZigguratOfUr

Iraq16955 Posts

April 25 2015 22:49 GMT

#231

On April 26 2015 07:45 Yakikorosu wrote:
Now that it's clear PartinG won't be on this list, I have to post one illustrative point:

PartinG Premier Tournament Wins: 4
PartinG Premier Tournament Second Place: 5
PartinG Major Tournament Wins: 7
PartinG Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #6 all time
PartinG All Time-Aligulac Ratings: #1 Protoss Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvT Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvZ Rating Ever Acheived (no, not in the WoL era), #2 PvP Rating Ever Acheived

soO Premier Tournament Wins: 0
soO Premier Tournament Second Place: 5
soO Major Tournament Wins: 1
soO Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #42 all time
soO All Time Aligulac Rating: Not in top 5 for any matchup

So yes, I think it's quite clear who, "objectively" is the better player.

PartinG should be #4 on this list. Mvp, Life and MAYBE TaeJa are the only better players in history.

All tournaments aren't made equal. Your statistics are meaningless without qualification. There is a very strong argument for including PartinG in the top 15; your argument is anything but strong or illustrative.

Phredxor

New Zealand15076 Posts

April 25 2015 22:51 GMT

#232

Great stuff as usual. Only thing I wasn't sure of was MC/Taeja 3 or 4. Personally expected MC at 3 but ah well!

FrostedMiniWheats

United States30730 Posts

April 25 2015 22:58 GMT

#233

On April 26 2015 07:19 Darkhorse wrote:

Show nested quote +

dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg

I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.

He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

April 25 2015 23:02 GMT

#234

On April 26 2015 07:49 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!

Meldon

Greece128 Posts

April 25 2015 23:03 GMT

#235

Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.

But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.

United States2922 Posts

April 25 2015 23:10 GMT

#236

On April 26 2015 08:02 Darkhorse wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.

Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”

What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!

The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.

You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.

Die4Ever

United States17750 Posts

April 25 2015 23:10 GMT

#237

On April 26 2015 07:28 Die4Ever wrote:

Show nested quote +

I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?

So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.

#1 Life with a score of 77
#2 Polt with a score of 49
#3 Zest with a score of 35
#4 PartinG with a score of 35
#5 TaeJa with a score of 34
#6 MC with a score of 31
#7 Mvp with a score of 28
#8 MMA with a score of 28
#9 Maru with a score of 23
#10 Trap with a score of 20
+ Show Spoiler [More] +

#11 Bomber with a score of 20
#12 Hydra with a score of 18
#13 HerO with a score of 17
#14 Jaedong with a score of 16
#15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15
#16 HyuN with a score of 14
#17 Leenock with a score of 14
#18 sOs with a score of 13
#19 Stephano with a score of 13
#20 NaNiwa with a score of 13
#21 MarineKing with a score of 12
#22 Rain with a score of 12
#23 herO with a score of 12
#24 PuMa with a score of 11
#25 INnoVation with a score of 10
#26 soO with a score of 10
#27 Soulkey with a score of 10
#28 San with a score of 9
#29 NesTea with a score of 9
#30 viOLet with a score of 8
#31 Solar with a score of 8
#32 Nerchio with a score of 8
#33 Dear with a score of 8
#34 MaNa with a score of 8
#35 Symbol with a score of 7
#36 Flash with a score of 7
#37 First with a score of 7
#38 Oz with a score of 6
#39 LosirA with a score of 6
#40 ForGG with a score of 6
#41 DIMAGA with a score of 6
#42 StarDust with a score of 6
#43 Creator with a score of 6
#44 Snute with a score of 6
#45 Alicia with a score of 5
#46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5
#47 Squirtle with a score of 5
#48 HuK with a score of 5
#49 Revival with a score of 5
#50 YoDa with a score of 5
#51 jjakji with a score of 4
#52 Dream with a score of 4
#53 TOP with a score of 4
#54 White-Ra with a score of 4
#55 Moon with a score of 4
#56 Curious with a score of 3
#57 Sen with a score of 3
#58 RorO with a score of 3
#59 IdrA with a score of 3
#60 Sacsri with a score of 3
#61 GanZi with a score of 3
#62 Pigbaby with a score of 3
#63 duckdeok with a score of 3
#64 Puzzle with a score of 3
#65 Classic with a score of 3
#66 SuperNova with a score of 3
#67 AcE with a score of 3
#68 Ret with a score of 3
#69 SjoW with a score of 3
#70 Impact with a score of 2
#71 Grubby with a score of 2
#72 Genius with a score of 2
#73 Sound with a score of 2
#74 ByuN with a score of 2
#75 Adelscott with a score of 2
#76 Sora with a score of 2
#77 FruitDealer with a score of 2
#78 Lucky with a score of 2
#79 Sniper with a score of 2
#80 elfi with a score of 2
#81 Cure with a score of 2
#82 CoCa with a score of 2
#83 Bly with a score of 2
#84 VortiX with a score of 2
#85 Heart with a score of 2
#86 Sting with a score of 2
#87 YongHwa with a score of 2
#88 Tassadar with a score of 2
#89 ByuL with a score of 2
#90 InCa with a score of 2
#91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2
#92 Seed with a score of 2
#93 July with a score of 2
#94 Scarlett with a score of 2
#95 MorroW with a score of 2
#96 aLive with a score of 2
#97 XiGua with a score of 2

+ Show Spoiler [Javascript] +


var players={};
var aplayers=[];
var years={};

function AddPlacing(name, place, year)
{
	if(name=='TBD') return;
	//console.log(name,place,year);
	if(!years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		years[year]={tournaments:0};
	}
	if(place==1) years[year].tournaments++;
	if(!players.hasOwnProperty(name)) {
		players[name]={name:name,firsts:0,seconds:0, years:{}};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].seconds++;
	if(!players[name].years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		players[name].years[year]={firsts:0,seconds:0};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].years[year].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].years[year].seconds++;
}

function ScorePlayer(p)
{
	var score=0;
	for(var i in p.years) {
		var y=p.years[i];
		score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments;
		score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments;
	}
	return Math.round(score);
}

$('h3').each(function(){
	console.log($(this).text());
	var year=$(this).text();
	var t=$(this).next();
	t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){
		var c=$(this).find('td');
		//console.log(c);
		var champ='';
		var runnerup='';
		var champs=[];
		var runnerups=[];
		try {
			champ=$(c[7]).text();
			runnerup=$(c[8]).text();
			champs=champ.split(/\s+/g);
			runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g);
		} catch(e) { }
		for(var i in champs) {
			var n=champs[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 1, year);				
		}
		for(var i in runnerups) {
			var n=runnerups[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 2, year);
		}
	});
});

for(var n in players) {
	var p=players[n];
	p['score']=ScorePlayer(p);
	aplayers.push(p);
}
console.log('sorting players');
aplayers.sort(function(a,b) {
	return b.score-a.score;
});
console.log('listing players');
var out='\n\n\n';
for(var i in aplayers) {
	var p=aplayers[i];
	var place=i- -1;
	out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n';
}
out+='\n';
console.log(out);
//console.log(players);

Oh yea and please vote for me so I don't lose in the first round, only left
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24136042

grogburg

United States329 Posts

April 25 2015 23:12 GMT

#238

Hmm I know Rain is held highly in regard, but I think Parting should have replaced Rain. The Nestea Award in particular stands out.

On the other hand, I took a break from watching SC2 when Rain was at his peak, and frankly the amount of work and thought that Stuchiu has put into this makes the article more or less ... irreproachable? At the very least extremely authoritative.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, thanks for the great content!

Deathstar

9150 Posts

April 25 2015 23:14 GMT

#239

On April 26 2015 07:49 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah I agree it's natural and not "bad", but something to keep in mind

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

April 25 2015 23:17 GMT

#240

On April 26 2015 08:10 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

Nope!

And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on

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