Greatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 13

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Koektrommel

Netherlands47 Posts

April 25 2015 23:18 GMT

#241

2. Life
1. SjoW

SJOW SJOW SJOW never forget

FrostedMiniWheats

United States30730 Posts

April 25 2015 23:19 GMT

#242

On April 26 2015 08:18 Koektrommel wrote:
2. Life
1. SjoW

SJOW SJOW SJOW never forget

biggest sc2 upset of all-time

EsportsJohn

United States4883 Posts

April 25 2015 23:19 GMT

#243

On April 26 2015 08:19 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Show nested quote +

biggest sc2 upset of all-time

Lol best post NA.

Zealously

East Gorteau22261 Posts

April 25 2015 23:20 GMT

#244

On April 26 2015 08:19 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Show nested quote +

biggest sc2 upset of all-time

I like TSL3 as a collective slightly more for that position, even though I think Life's loss to Sjow might have had a stronger emotional impact.

United States2921 Posts

April 25 2015 23:21 GMT

#245

On April 26 2015 08:17 Darkhorse wrote:

Show nested quote +

Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?

Show nested quote +

Nope!

And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on

Fair enough haha

BakedButters

United States748 Posts

April 25 2015 23:23 GMT

#246

Hmm, not surprised that the only one of the top 15 who never reached a final in a premiere tourney in Korea is giving rise to all the controversy

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

April 25 2015 23:25 GMT

#247

On April 26 2015 08:21 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 26 2015 08:17 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:10 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:02 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 07:49 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote:
Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"

Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.

I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.

Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”

What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!

The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.

You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.

Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

Nope!

And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on

Fair enough haha

Excellent

Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself

necrosexy

451 Posts

April 25 2015 23:25 GMT

#248

This is in the foreword: "A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments."

yet the achievements tiers ignore this?

Alucen-Will-

United States4054 Posts

April 25 2015 23:25 GMT

#249

I'm not even going to argue about Taeja in the third position (even though it is completely unjustified), but PartinG not in the top 15? really?

What kind of reasonable criteria could bring about this result?

United States2921 Posts

April 25 2015 23:30 GMT

#250

On April 26 2015 08:25 Darkhorse wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 26 2015 08:21 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:17 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:10 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:02 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 07:49 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote:
Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"

I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!

Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

Nope!

And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on

Fair enough haha

Excellent

Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself

Never. I went the entrepreneurial route 3+ years ago and started my own marketing company so that I don't HAVE to listen or deal with people I don't want to.

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

April 25 2015 23:31 GMT

#251

On April 26 2015 08:30 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 26 2015 08:25 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:21 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:17 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:10 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 08:02 Darkhorse wrote:

On April 26 2015 07:49 G5 wrote:

On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote:
Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"

I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!

Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?

Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?

Nope!

And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on

Fair enough haha

Excellent

Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself

Never. I went the entrepreneurial route 3+ years ago and started my own marketing company so that I don't HAVE to listen or deal with people I don't want to.

Oh well congratulations on starting your own company!

SLCMemento

13 Posts

April 25 2015 23:31 GMT

#252

For all the TaeJa haters that talked about his no GSL wins, and who think he should be behind people like MC. Take this one comparison.

TaeJa - DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again

MC - 2nd GSL Win: July, San, July

I rest my case. Not all GSLs are created equal. And MC's 2nd GSL win was a joke compared to several of the tourneys TaeJa's won.

GSL's ARE the hardest tourney in the world IN GENERAL, but not by nearly as large a margin as people seem to think. And some are merely equal at best to top international events. Seed, Sniper, and Jjaki are GSL winners...who? Exactly.

United States2921 Posts

April 25 2015 23:33 GMT

#253

Hope to see Life #1 but would understand MVP. Life would be my #1 though for many reasons including fan bias. He's just the most exciting player SC2 has ever had imo. I view the titles and stats as being quite similar between the two. The biggest thing for me though is the fact that Life isn't done winning championships. It's also extremely impressive to me to see him peak as #1 in the world in 3 different eras. It reminds me of JulyZerg in Broodwar. Even if MVP is put #1, I am fairly certain that if you re-did the list in a year with the same criteria, Life would be #1.

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

April 25 2015 23:34 GMT

#254

On April 26 2015 08:25 Alucen-Will- wrote:
I'm not even going to argue about Taeja in the third position (even though it is completely unjustified), but PartinG not in the top 15? really?

What kind of reasonable criteria could bring about this result?

You can read his blog about this here: criteria used
I am sure (and too lazy to check tbh) that stuchiu did his best to stick to these points as well as he could.
I disagree with some of his thoughts on the criteria, but it's hard to discuss this list (and argue against it) cause nobody here will actually do the work stuchiu did.
Excited for the top 2 though! (well the order)

Die4Ever

United States17734 Posts

April 25 2015 23:34 GMT

#255

+ Show Spoiler [quotes] +

On April 26 2015 08:10 Die4Ever wrote:

Show nested quote +

So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.

#1 Life with a score of 77
#2 Polt with a score of 49
#3 Zest with a score of 35
#4 PartinG with a score of 35
#5 TaeJa with a score of 34
#6 MC with a score of 31
#7 Mvp with a score of 28
#8 MMA with a score of 28
#9 Maru with a score of 23
#10 Trap with a score of 20
+ Show Spoiler [More] +

#11 Bomber with a score of 20
#12 Hydra with a score of 18
#13 HerO with a score of 17
#14 Jaedong with a score of 16
#15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15
#16 HyuN with a score of 14
#17 Leenock with a score of 14
#18 sOs with a score of 13
#19 Stephano with a score of 13
#20 NaNiwa with a score of 13
#21 MarineKing with a score of 12
#22 Rain with a score of 12
#23 herO with a score of 12
#24 PuMa with a score of 11
#25 INnoVation with a score of 10
#26 soO with a score of 10
#27 Soulkey with a score of 10
#28 San with a score of 9
#29 NesTea with a score of 9
#30 viOLet with a score of 8
#31 Solar with a score of 8
#32 Nerchio with a score of 8
#33 Dear with a score of 8
#34 MaNa with a score of 8
#35 Symbol with a score of 7
#36 Flash with a score of 7
#37 First with a score of 7
#38 Oz with a score of 6
#39 LosirA with a score of 6
#40 ForGG with a score of 6
#41 DIMAGA with a score of 6
#42 StarDust with a score of 6
#43 Creator with a score of 6
#44 Snute with a score of 6
#45 Alicia with a score of 5
#46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5
#47 Squirtle with a score of 5
#48 HuK with a score of 5
#49 Revival with a score of 5
#50 YoDa with a score of 5
#51 jjakji with a score of 4
#52 Dream with a score of 4
#53 TOP with a score of 4
#54 White-Ra with a score of 4
#55 Moon with a score of 4
#56 Curious with a score of 3
#57 Sen with a score of 3
#58 RorO with a score of 3
#59 IdrA with a score of 3
#60 Sacsri with a score of 3
#61 GanZi with a score of 3
#62 Pigbaby with a score of 3
#63 duckdeok with a score of 3
#64 Puzzle with a score of 3
#65 Classic with a score of 3
#66 SuperNova with a score of 3
#67 AcE with a score of 3
#68 Ret with a score of 3
#69 SjoW with a score of 3
#70 Impact with a score of 2
#71 Grubby with a score of 2
#72 Genius with a score of 2
#73 Sound with a score of 2
#74 ByuN with a score of 2
#75 Adelscott with a score of 2
#76 Sora with a score of 2
#77 FruitDealer with a score of 2
#78 Lucky with a score of 2
#79 Sniper with a score of 2
#80 elfi with a score of 2
#81 Cure with a score of 2
#82 CoCa with a score of 2
#83 Bly with a score of 2
#84 VortiX with a score of 2
#85 Heart with a score of 2
#86 Sting with a score of 2
#87 YongHwa with a score of 2
#88 Tassadar with a score of 2
#89 ByuL with a score of 2
#90 InCa with a score of 2
#91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2
#92 Seed with a score of 2
#93 July with a score of 2
#94 Scarlett with a score of 2
#95 MorroW with a score of 2
#96 aLive with a score of 2
#97 XiGua with a score of 2

+ Show Spoiler [Javascript] +


var players={};
var aplayers=[];
var years={};

function AddPlacing(name, place, year)
{
	if(name=='TBD') return;
	//console.log(name,place,year);
	if(!years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		years[year]={tournaments:0};
	}
	if(place==1) years[year].tournaments++;
	if(!players.hasOwnProperty(name)) {
		players[name]={name:name,firsts:0,seconds:0, years:{}};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].seconds++;
	if(!players[name].years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		players[name].years[year]={firsts:0,seconds:0};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].years[year].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].years[year].seconds++;
}

function ScorePlayer(p)
{
	var score=0;
	for(var i in p.years) {
		var y=p.years[i];
		score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments;
		score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments;
	}
	return Math.round(score);
}

$('h3').each(function(){
	console.log($(this).text());
	var year=$(this).text();
	var t=$(this).next();
	t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){
		var c=$(this).find('td');
		//console.log(c);
		var champ='';
		var runnerup='';
		var champs=[];
		var runnerups=[];
		try {
			champ=$(c[7].text();
			runnerup=$(c[8].text();
			champs=champ.split(/\s+/g);
			runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g);
		} catch(e) { }
		for(var i in champs) {
			var n=champs[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 1, year);				
		}
		for(var i in runnerups) {
			var n=runnerups[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 2, year);
		}
	});
});

for(var n in players) {
	var p=players[n];
	p['score']=ScorePlayer(p);
	aplayers.push(p);
}
console.log('sorting players');
aplayers.sort(function(a,b) {
	return b.score-a.score;
});
console.log('listing players');
var out='\n\n\n';
for(var i in aplayers) {
	var p=aplayers[i];
	var place=i- -1;
	out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n';
}
out+='\n';
console.log(out);
//console.log(players);

Oh yea and please vote for me so I don't lose in the first round, only left
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24136042

So I updated this to weight towards bigger money tournaments and tournaments in Korea. It looks at premier tournament finals placings and scores them relative to how many tournaments were in that year.

#1 Life with a score of 153
#2 Polt with a score of 140
#3 PartinG with a score of 92
#4 Hydra with a score of 88
#5 Zest with a score of 80
#6 Mvp with a score of 79
#7 MMA with a score of 68
#8 MC with a score of 64
#9 Trap with a score of 51
#10 soO with a score of 47
+ Show Spoiler [More] +

#11 TaeJa with a score of 46
#12 Maru with a score of 42
#13 Bomber with a score of 39
#14 INnoVation with a score of 38
#15 sOs with a score of 36
#16 DongRaeGu with a score of 35
#17 Jaedong with a score of 35
#18 MarineKing with a score of 33
#19 Leenock with a score of 31
#20 Rain with a score of 29
#21 HerO with a score of 28
#22 HyuN with a score of 28
#23 Soulkey with a score of 27
#24 Stephano with a score of 25
#25 NesTea with a score of 24
#26 Dear with a score of 22
#27 herO with a score of 22
#28 PuMa with a score of 20
#29 Symbol with a score of 19
#30 NaNiwa with a score of 19
#31 LosirA with a score of 16
#32 Squirtle with a score of 16
#33 San with a score of 15
#34 TOP with a score of 15
#35 Oz with a score of 14
#36 Creator with a score of 14
#37 RorO with a score of 13
#38 jjakji with a score of 13
#39 viOLet with a score of 13
#40 Classic with a score of 12
#41 MaNa with a score of 12
#42 First with a score of 12
#43 YoDa with a score of 12
#44 Nerchio with a score of 11
#45 Flash with a score of 11
#46 ForGG with a score of 10
#47 StarDust with a score of 10
#48 Solar with a score of 10
#49 Alicia with a score of 10
#50 Dream with a score of 9
#51 Snute with a score of 9
#52 Revival with a score of 9
#53 Seed with a score of 9
#54 Sniper with a score of 9
#55 Genius with a score of 9
#56 July with a score of 8
#57 InCa with a score of 8
#58 Pigbaby with a score of 7
#59 DIMAGA with a score of 7
#60 SuperNova with a score of 7
#61 ByuN with a score of 6
#62 Heart with a score of 6
#63 duckdeok with a score of 6
#64 HuK with a score of 6
#65 ThorZaIN with a score of 6
#66 Puzzle with a score of 6
#67 Curious with a score of 6
#68 GanZi with a score of 6
#69 White-Ra with a score of 6
#70 Tassadar with a score of 5
#71 Moon with a score of 5
#72 aLive with a score of 5
#73 ByuL with a score of 5
#74 Sora with a score of 4
#75 Lucky with a score of 4
#76 Sting with a score of 3
#77 AcE with a score of 3
#78 IdrA with a score of 3
#79 VortiX with a score of 3
#80 Cure with a score of 3
#81 Sen with a score of 3
#82 SjoW with a score of 3
#83 Adelscott with a score of 3
#84 Impact with a score of 3
#85 Ret with a score of 3
#86 XiGua with a score of 3
#87 Scarlett with a score of 3
#88 Sacsri with a score of 3
#89 CoCa with a score of 2
#90 elfi with a score of 2
#91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2
#92 FruitDealer with a score of 2
#93 Sound with a score of 2
#94 Grubby with a score of 2
#95 MorroW with a score of 2
#96 YongHwa with a score of 2
#97 Bly with a score of 2

+ Show Spoiler [Javascript code] +


var players={};
var aplayers=[];
var years={};

function AddPlacing(name, place, year, country, money)
{
	if(name=='TBD') return;
	//console.log(name,place,year);
	if(!years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		years[year]={tournaments:0};
	}
	if(place==1) years[year].tournaments++;
	if(!players.hasOwnProperty(name)) {
		players[name]={name:name,firsts:0,seconds:0,score:0,years:{}};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].seconds++;
	if(!players[name].years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		players[name].years[year]={firsts:0,seconds:0,score:0};
	}
	if(country=='South Korea') money*=2;
	money/=1000;
	if(place==1) {
		players[name].years[year].firsts++;
		players[name].years[year].score+=100+money;
	}
	if(place==2) {
		players[name].years[year].seconds++;
		players[name].years[year].score+=70+money;
	}
}

function ScorePlayer(p)
{
	var score=0;
	for(var i in p.years) {
		var y=p.years[i];
		score += p.years[i].score / years[i].tournaments;
	}
	return Math.round(score);
}

$('h3').each(function(){
	console.log($(this).text());
	var year=$(this).text();
	var t=$(this).next();
	t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){
		var c=$(this).find('td');
		//console.log(c);
		var champ='';
		var runnerup='';
		var champs=[];
		var runnerups=[];
		var country='';
		var money=10000;
		try {
			champ=$(c[7]).text();
			runnerup=$(c[8]).text();
			champs=champ.split(/\s+/g);
			runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g);
			country=$(c[6]).find('img').attr('alt');
			money=$(c[4]).text().replace(/[s$,]/g, '');
			money=parseInt(money);
		} catch(e) { }
		var m=money;
		for(var i in champs) {
			var n=champs[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 1, year, country, m);
			m/=2;
		}
		var m=money;
		for(var i in runnerups) {
			var n=runnerups[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 2, year, country, m);
			m/=2;
		}
	});
});

for(var n in players) {
	var p=players[n];
	p['score']=ScorePlayer(p);
	aplayers.push(p);
}
console.log('sorting players');
aplayers.sort(function(a,b) {
	return b.score-a.score;
});
console.log('listing players');
var out='\n\n\n';
for(var i in aplayers) {
	var p=aplayers[i];
	var place=i- -1;
	out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n';
}
out+='\n';
console.log(out);
//console.log(players);

Oh yea and please vote for me so I don't lose in the first round, only left
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24136042

alekseyevich

3 Posts

April 25 2015 23:46 GMT

#256

I enjoyed reading the writeups; I do believe that MC should be at number 3 and Taeja at number 4, though.

I read the criteria and stuchiu's defence of the positioning in this thread, and it's pretty logical but I can't help but feel if the reasoning for putting MC below Taeja is this criteria then the criteria must be wrong.

I think GSLs are undervalued in the criteria, and foreign tournaments are overvalued. If you face strong Korean opponents on foreign soil, unless it's Blizzcon or something which had a huge prize pool then it absolutely doesn't equate to playing the same opponents in Korea in a GSL which means the world to them. They're just too different. I read the inequalities of Blizzcon > GSL > ... etc but I don't think they are weighted enough towards GSLs. A GSL win is so, so important.

I also think the logic used at times to claim that the level of play has increased over time and so recent wins rank higher than older wins is dubious.

Lastly, stuchiu talks about balance and the meta quite a bit for Polt and Taeja, but barely talks about how ridiculous MC's achievements were in Wings given the appalling balance for 2010, 2011 and some of 2012. MC first wins GSL twice in 2010-2011 and is the only Protoss to do so. He is also one of two Protoss players to appear in a GSL finals in this period. At the same time, there are 4 Zerg GSL championships and 6 Terran. There are 14 appearances in GSL finals by Terrans, and 8 by Zerg. SC2 might have been younger back then and less well-formed, but that's a huge deal. It's pretty funny to only mention the 'protoss favored meta' in the MC article when MC loses to Seed, but then ignore the 1.5 year gap where every Protoss apart from MC got shafted in GSL.

Good read though, suppose it's natural to disagree with the rankings. Wouldn't be interesting otherwise!

stuchiu

Fiddler's Green42661 Posts

April 25 2015 23:54 GMT

#257

On April 26 2015 07:58 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.

He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.

Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.

Lunareste

United States3596 Posts

April 25 2015 23:58 GMT

#258

lol Taeja #3? LOL

TL always so biased

imre

France9263 Posts

April 26 2015 00:03 GMT

#259

On April 26 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote:

Show nested quote +

I like TSL3 as a collective slightly more for that position, even though I think Life's loss to Sjow might have had a stronger emotional impact.

TSL3 was a lagfest except for some series tbh.

Phredxor

New Zealand15076 Posts

April 26 2015 00:08 GMT

#260

I really don't understand the upset with Taeja at 3. It's like people have never seen his runs in the tournaments he's won. Sure they're weekend tournaments in Europe or whatever, but they're hardly filled out with foreigners. They can be almost as stacked as GSL's half the time.

And I don't even like Taeja, his calls of retiring when he lost in tournaments really annoyed me.

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