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Elentos
55566 Posts
On April 14 2015 06:18 Zealously wrote: Indeed, in one of the cases other players saw the innovations and followed suit, in the other they tried but found themselves utterly unable  The interesting thing throughout that is, however, that both of them ended up far above all other players of their race, despite this distinctly different type of innovation. | ||
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Elentos
55566 Posts
On April 14 2015 06:28 Peanutbutter717 wrote: Hmm... 1 of each race DRG, Squirtle, Bomber DRG is #14, plz :O | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Noone really knows if that player really thought about that innovation and was the first one to use it. It could be a teammate did it in the teamhouse, or a coach thought of it, or he saw it randomly on the ladder. "innovation" is basically meaningless, what matters is how successful you can use said strategy. And even if you don't agree with that premise, in a game which isn't "figured out" yet it is a lot easier to innovate regardless. | ||
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TheJestOne
United States11 Posts
9 taeja 8 mc 7 rain 6 zest 5 mma 4 polt 3 innovation 2 nestea 1 mvp | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On April 14 2015 06:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: This "innovation" aspect is completely ridiculous tbh. Noone really knows if that player really thought about that innovation and was the first one to use it. It could be a teammate did it in the teamhouse, or a coach thought of it, or he saw it randomly on the ladder. "innovation" is basically meaningless, what matters is how successful you can use said strategy. And even if you don't agree with that premise, in a game which isn't "figured out" yet it is a lot easier to innovate regardless. That's utterly unreasonable. When a player is pioneering new strategies and ideas over and over again in tournaments over a long period of time and others following up, days, weeks or months after until it becomes standard is not a coincidence. And while new ideas not always have to be original, to bring them refined to the table takes a careful consideration of the actual potential. Great innovative players are not only characterized by originality, but also the ability to recognize the potential of an unrefined idea others would not. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On April 14 2015 05:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This prediction is extremely reasonable except... Mine isn't really a prediction tbh because I know the order and who is actually on the list. This was just my opinion | ||
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F0rlorn
Canada74 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Greatest Canadian Players Of All Time 1. HuK 2. Scarlett 3. Testie Combatex vs parting never forget | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
If you read it you should be able to work backwards and recreate what I did. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
Stephano Innovation Polt Bomber Parting Nestea MMA MC Life Mvp | ||
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elwoodng
Singapore438 Posts
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
On April 14 2015 07:59 Darkhorse wrote: Mine isn't really a prediction tbh because I know the order and who is actually on the list. This was just my opinion Curious, why do you put Polt over MMA? I have a bias for MMA I suppose since he's my favorite player, but I think his achievements edge out Polt's pretty handily. Their GSL wins are of pretty equal quality. IEM Kiev and ASUS ROG are similar. They both have 2 WCS EU/NA wins. MMA's MLG is pretty comparable to Polt's Redbull win. Of the remaining premier wins, MMA has Blizzard Cup, Iron Squid, and Dreamhack Moscow, versus Polt's MLG and recent WCS, which I think is pretty favorable for MMA (in large part due to the Blizzard Cup). Both with 4 second places, but MMA's are more impressive with a GSL and a Blizzcon in the mix. Both with six 3rd-4th placings of similar quality, but one of MMA's is notably the most recent GSL. That GSL semifinal and the second place at Blizzcon I think especially say a lot about MMA's "greatness". Both have pretty similar performances in "major tournaments", for what thats worth. And then outside of all of this, you also have MMA's notable team league performances in both ATC (although Polt has not had the opportunity to compete in team leagues like this for a while now) and GSTL, in which he was twice named the Most Valuable Player. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 14 2015 06:04 Tanzklaue wrote: except that was a joke because the guy had 2 guys extra and sos who is confirmed to be 16th, thus 3 of them are definitely not top 10. Umm... There's 12 people in that list. If three of those aren't in the top 10, it means someone not on that list is in the top 10. And Darkhorse's list is made up entirely of players in that list. | ||
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negativedge
4279 Posts
The way I see it, there are 11 clear contenders for 10 spots: Innovation, Rain, Parting, Polt, Nestea, MMA, Life, MVP, Zest, Taeja, MC. Stephano isn't going to be on there. Bomber isn't going to be on there. Dear, Soulkey, CJ hero--not happening (do this a year from now and cj hero would be, I think, but alas). one of those 11 didn't make the top 15 (or top 16, considering we know sOs was in the conversation), the other 10 are your top 10 in some order. if you look purely at results, the most likely to be left out are Innovation, Rain, and Parting. if you value longevity, current form, or top level competition, Nestea could easily be out (and MVP would lose his throne to Life). if you highly value Korean results above all others, MC or Polt could be off the list, and Taeja could be out of the top five. I don't think those things are very likely. MVP and Life are the clear top two, in some order. Taeja is a lock for the list, and I think he'll be in the top five. I think Innovation's recent GSL title took him off the bubble. with a GSL win, a WCS season finals win, a GSL runner up, and team league dominance on top of his aura of invincibility when he was at his peak, I don't think there's any way to leave him off the list. he's Maru with a higher peak and more results. MMA had a period of time as a dominant player in Korea, and then he had a period of time as a dominant player in Europe. when he came back to Korea and immediately had a top four finish in GSL. I think that pretty much sealed it. he's going to be on the list. I don't think you can make a coherent argument that puts Zest behind s0s, Parting, and Rain, which means he's guaranteed to be on this list. that brings us down to Polt, MC, Nestea, Rain, and Parting. one of those five is out. it's not going to be MC. his form seems to fluctuate daily, and his Korean results have been nonexistent for three years, but he's still the money champ and it's impossible to write the story of SC2 without him. he's always lurking, and he's done so for five years. there's no chance he's not in the top fifteen. so how do you differentiate between Parting, Rain, Nestea, and Polt? between them, those players basically have nothing in common. Polt has been relevant for almost the entirety of SC2's history, but he only has two Korean finishes of note, and both of them came in 2011. Nestea was the first best player, and his period of dominance was arguably as high as we've seen, including an entire GSL in which he didn't drop a map. but he was only a top player for a year, and he hasn't been relevant for basically three years. Parting doesn't have many tournament wins of note, and the TL staff doesn't seem to like him much, but he's been a top five protoss player for 3 straight years, has at various times been considered the best in the world at all three protoss matchups, and he singlehandedly set the PvT and PvZ metas in different eras. Rain was the first Kespa player to make a name for himself, and has been considered a top protoss player pretty much from his debut to now, but he's also arguably in the worst form of his SC2 career as we speak, and he's basically only won a Hot 6 cup and an uneven OSL that may or may not have actually happened. I think Polt is in. He's been too good in foreign tournaments for too long, across metas and matchups, with no support system. So we're down to Parting, Rain, and Nestea. If we take Zealously's hint post into consideration, then either Parting or Nestea is out and Rain is in, since I already excluded Bomber and sOs is confirmed for 16th. If it weren't for that post, I think I'd leave Rain out. I don't think there's any meaningful way to compare Parting and Nestea, so I'm just going to say that Parting is out because TL doesn't much like him and he doesn't have the wins to back the skill and influence up. So we have our ten: MVP, Life, MMA, MC, Innovation, Rain, Zest, Taeja, Nestea, and Polt. MVP and Life are in the top five. Rain isn't. I think Taeja's two GSL semifinal runs in unfavorable conditions are enough to win out over the "but he sucked in Korea!" crowd. his sheer volume of wins and his runs of dominance make the initial argument for him, and his occasional GSL success is enough to keep him there. I put him ahead of MC and Polt, who are the two players you can most easily compare him to. That's two spots left for the top five. I kind of feel like Zest is in there, but can you really put him there when he didn't even qualify for GSL or SSL this past season? He had a sterling record in 2014, but to be top five you need more than that, and so I view those failures to qualify as a pretty big deal. Polt has never been considered the best Terran player in the world. MMA has. Their success is otherwise comparable. Yes, Polt 4-0'd him in the Super Tournament, but MMA was overall the better player that year, and has had more impressive victories to me. I think MMA will be top five. Honestly, I can't come up with a way to determine the fifth spot. It's all about how highly stuichu values those 2011 results. I think Polt has had a better career than MC, but MC has two GSL titles. Nestea beats all competitors for this spot in the dominance-versus-competition-during-peak category, and falls woefully behind in everything else. Zest would be favored over anyone on this list except for Life in a tournament today, and that would be true for any point in the last year. So we'll take a guess. Final list: 10. Rain 9. Innovation 8. Nestea 7. Zest 6. MC 5. Polt 4. MMA 3. Taeja 2. Life 1. MVP I'm going to be pissed when this comes out and Bomber is on the list instead of Rain and that costs me everything. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Combatex is like top 5 Western Hemisphere player | ||
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
Parting sOs Nestea Zest Rain Specifically it's hard to place Nestea for me. There was a time when he was unstoppable, and that time did last for a while. But his skill was never at the level of players nowadays, and he was always overshadowed by MVP (for me, at least), so it's so difficult to figure out where he should actually rank. How much do we weight his results vs. the overall skill level of players at the time? I'm interested to see what stuchiu decides for that (assuming Nestea makes the list at all.) | ||
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feanaro
United States123 Posts
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote: CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2? I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right My guesses: 10: PartinG 9: $O$ 8: MC 7: Nestea 6: Taeja 5: Polt 4: Zest 3: MMA 2: MVP 1: Life | ||
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Packawana
United States1081 Posts
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ETisME
12680 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote: CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2? I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right 10 - sOs 9 - Stephano 8 - MC 7 - 6 - Parting (5 -INno 4 - Zest 3 - Taeja 2 - Life 1 - MVP) Although you might squeeze Nestea or Rain somewhere... Edit : fuck I realized haven't put MMA, what a shame! replacing Polt by MMA then, but I'm not happy... (why the hell did you put MK in this list  ) | ||
JunkkaGom
Korea (South)855 Posts
If I had my choice, I would put Nestea at the top. The fact he managed to transition into new game and winning GSL without dropping single set at such age makes him worthy Also I would put BitByBit (kappa) | ||
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