EPTBalance Test Map Update - February 25 - Page 5
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JamesT
United States681 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:21 KingAlphard wrote: This might be true. Although this would mean that both players would start to slowly turn their army into a pure carrier army, and then you would have a pathetic mass carriers vs. mass carriers lategame. That's not fun either. Tempests are interesting because you can't mass them for the win in PvP, you need to find the proper balance. Maybe the only crazy thing that could happen would be if people started to go straight into skytoss to get ahead on upgrades, but it's not really possible. Blink stalkers are too good against low numbers of air units. Straight skytoss should not be possible because you'll die while transitioning against straight blink stalkers if you're rushing the fleet beacon or blink stalkers + templars/archons if you're trying to use void rays first as shown by the first months of HotS. I'm not a good player so I may be saying really stupid things because I never built a tempest (OK, I actually built some once during a PvT ladder game to seal a victory against a pretty BM T that had no more eco but a fucking strong 180 supply ghost viking army). For instance I had never realized the interesting interaction you mentioned in your previous post (tempests, but not too many). But I'm sure there are options to be explored besides the 8 colossi + immortal archon. Why not colossi void rays with archon support for instance ? The void ray has seen heavy use in the early days of HotS, then people realized they were terrible against storms, and no one goes void rays any more. But void rays are really strong in HotS. Maybe things like that could appear. | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote: Oh and btw: a funny fact is that without tempests +massive air bonus, a pure carrier army would be unbeatable in PvP. I just tested this for the lulz, 132 supply of fully upgraded Carriers lost to 132 supply of fully upgraded Archons. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:32 Elentos wrote: I just tested this for the lulz, 132 supply of fully upgraded Carriers lost to 132 supply of fully upgraded Archons. Seriously ? That's interesting ^^ | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: Straight skytoss should not be possible because you'll die while transitioning against straight blink stalkers if you're rushing the fleet beacon or blink stalkers + templars/archons if you're trying to use void rays first as shown by the first months of HotS. I'm not a good player so I may be saying really stupid things because I never built a tempest (OK, I actually built some once during a PvT ladder game to seal a victory against a pretty BM T that had no more eco but a fucking strong 180 supply ghost viking army). For instance I had never realized the interesting interaction you mentioned in your previous post (tempests, but not too many). But I'm sure there are options to be explored besides the 8 colossi + immortal archon. Why not colossi void rays with archon support for instance ? The void ray has seen heavy use in the early days of HotS, then people realized they were terrible against storms, and no one goes void rays any more. But void rays are really strong in HotS. Maybe things like that could appear. Mostly because of the way upgrades work, and because storm exists, and deals with void rays quite well. For the player going colossus/voidray/archon, he's going to need air, ground, and shield upgrades to compete with a 3/3 ground army from his opponent, which is far easier to get to without dying, and void rays are shredded by storms. The composition doesn't work at a high level. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: Straight skytoss should not be possible because you'll die while transitioning against straight blink stalkers if you're rushing the fleet beacon or blink stalkers + templars/archons if you're trying to use void rays first as shown by the first months of HotS. I'm not a good player so I may be saying really stupid things because I never built a tempest (OK, I actually built some once during a PvT ladder game to seal a victory against a pretty BM T that had no more eco but a fucking strong 180 supply ghost viking army). For instance I had never realized the interesting interaction you mentioned in your previous post (tempests, but not too many). But I'm sure there are options to be explored besides the 8 colossi + immortal archon. Why not colossi void rays with archon support for instance ? The void ray has seen heavy use in the early days of HotS, then people realized they were terrible against storms, and no one goes void rays any more. But void rays are really strong in HotS. Maybe things like that could appear. Colossus/void rays/archons would not work. Void rays are weaker than immortals in terms of dps and of the protection they can give to your colossi. Of course they fly, but if you lose all your colossi and archons, it won't really matter. Also it feels like they would simply get beaten by a lot of archons. Actually a few carriers mixed in your ground army would not be that useful either. It takes too much time for them to focus down colossi, unlike tempests, and you would lose the ground battle too easily. Only mass carriers would be unbeatable. That's why tempests (which I can agree with you, are not the best unit in PvT and PvZ) fit so well with PvP. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Elentos
55553 Posts
Yes. Unfortunately didn't have the time to test both current and LotV Carriers (the difference being LotV Interceptors not immediately dying when the Carrier goes down because of that new ability), for some reason I used LotV instead of HotS, so I can't say whether Stalkers and Voidrays currently work with focus fire, but in LotV they definitely wouldn't. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16081 Posts
Now if only they'd do something about the Collosus all of my hopes and dreams for changes to the units I hate in this game would be realized. All in all I think these changes are a good direction to go in. The Tempest's +Massive damage was the wrong way to address Infestor/Broodlord in ZvP and with Mass Swarm Host no longer being a viable way to combat the Protoss deathball in the late game for Zerg, the return of the Broodlord seems like an obvious trade off. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:39 Whitewing wrote: They don't want to remove the massive tag from broodlords because of ZvZ, and doing this might make battlecruisers more common in TvP. I guess they just don't mind the damage to PvP with this change, which is unfortunate, because I was really loving the Templar into Tempest style we were seeing from players like Rain. Only time I saw Rain attempting something gateway based into tempests he died pitifully to Zest's colossi on King Sejong Station. Do you have games showcasing that style ? | ||
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Odowan Paleolithic
United States232 Posts
Test it again. Archon only have 3 range. Carriers can abuse terrain. | ||
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JamesT
United States681 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:32 Elentos wrote: I just tested this for the lulz, 132 supply of fully upgraded Carriers lost to 132 supply of fully upgraded Archons. I'd imagine that archon aoe murdered the interceptors | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:41 [PkF] Wire wrote: Only time I saw Rain attempting something gateway based into tempests he died pitifully to Zest's colossi on King Sejong Station. Do you have games showcasing that style ? I'd have to find the replays, and I don't remember in which tournaments I saw it, but he did it several times on Foxtrot and in a few other places, and he won several times with it against some really good players. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:42 KingAlphard wrote: How is this tempest nerf going to affect ultra-lategame vs zerg anyway?... The best composition against zerg, currently, is mass tempests/hts with a few colossi to clear locust waves. I doubt that broodlords would be very good against that. They're just too slow and they can't compete with tempests' 15 range combined with revelation. BL will probably allow the Z to have a good enough timing around 18-20:00 before you get your super lategame army going. I see roach hydra corruptor into BL being something in that meta. And yeah, getting tempests against Z in that meta wouldn't be good. Corruptors are just too cost efficient vs them. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13980 Posts
On February 26 2015 04:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: as in the super insanely epic tournaments of 2013? or the last weekend of season one which wraps up NA/EU? | ||
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