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On February 26 2015 07:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 07:24 Lobotomist wrote:
I think the beginning of LotV is gonna be pretty rough for zerg. As glad as i am to see swarmhosts go, i don't think zerg will initially have the tools to combat protoss deathballs nor terran mech. Unless they buff broodlord infestor way up, which would be absolutely hilarious (in an awful de ja vu type way) it's to early to tell because so much will change until release but at his point zerg seems to be by far the strongest race. ravager destroying forcefields, warpgate nerf and lurker will absolutely fuck with protoss and i can't imagine bio being viable at all vs zerg. marauder nerf + ultra buff is INSANE, ultras will basically never die vs bio. maybe mech with cyclones will be pretty good but ultras will also be extremely strong vs mech.
Ultra buff? Warpgate nerf? Damn i did not read some stuff. Ravagers and hatch tech free burrow move look ridiculous, i guess i had assumed that ravager was going to get heavily nerfed and burrow move would never make it live.
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I don't know I think the Tempest need some kind of slight buff, with this change, or at least a change in it's role.
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On February 26 2015 08:12 ejozl wrote:
I don't know I think the Tempest need some kind of slight buff, with this change, or at least a change in it's role.
Who cares about the tempest, let the boring unit die.
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Ugh, we have to wait until the end of WCS Season 1 to get rid of swarm hosts? We're not even done with the Round of 32 yet! I can see why they wouldn't do a balance change in the middle of a round since that means players aren't all on the same footing, but why can't they just do it after the Ro32 is over? At that point none of WCS, SSL or GSL will be in the middle of a round, it's the perfect time!
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This is in fact in the right direction.
There are still several changes that absolutely need to be made.
Zerg need VIABLE anti air to combat Protoss, dragging queens across the map will not do.
Zerg also need a way to trade less cost inefficiently against Protoss deathballs. The best option is probably a hydra buff in the form of removing either the range upgrade or the move speed upgrade and making it default. They are already lair tech so its not like hydra busts are going to be a problem, especially with the mothershipcore being so defensively strong in the time that upgrade would matter.
I think it would be a cool change for Zerg to make queens massive, mostly to help defend against force fielding the main ramp. Either that or add some other vulnerability to force fields because they are the longest standing aspect of absolutely terrible game design in sc2. Maybe give them HP and be destroyable.
While I'm pointing out aspects of terrible game design, what's with oracles insane amount of dps. Wouldn't it be better to have something with more counter-play to it. Maybe instead of lasering everything to death it could just place a static "bomb" that would detonate after a second. If there was a melee cast range to that there would be little options for abuse against large forces late game. There's much more reward for watching the mini-map closely and scouting the edges of your base and it would be reminiscent of reaver drops. Running your workers away would actually achieve something as well. As it stands its just one more Protoss megalaser.
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The Tempest has always been an extremely stupid unit in the late game. Glad they are changing it.
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I'd actually really like to see the Tempest's damage and cooldown increased, as well as a total speed increase, in exchange for lowering its acceleration to something ridiculous like .25 or .125 so that it behaves more like a flying Siege Tank that must be guided into position before the fight starts.
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Vipers bigger range and faster locusts, i guess blizzard really dont want Terran players to go mech anymore.
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On February 26 2015 08:51 Yakikorosu wrote:
Ugh, we have to wait until the end of WCS Season 1 to get rid of swarm hosts? We're not even done with the Round of 32 yet! I can see why they wouldn't do a balance change in the middle of a round since that means players aren't all on the same footing, but why can't they just do it after the Ro32 is over? At that point none of WCS, SSL or GSL will be in the middle of a round, it's the perfect time!
Because these changes are huge and will change the strategies a lot for all three races. Players won't have enough time to try, test and practice all that stuff. You have been waiting for 2 years already, sky won't fall if this doesn't happen in few weeks...
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So the point of this patch is to kill two hots units right?
SH- now an awkwardly supply heavy, expensive, rarely fighting unit. They sure are unique in this sense. How about give them a spell e.g. a 'heavy creep' ability (remember the goo in load runner that slowed everything down?) or something that made them useful in the interim. Or forget them as I think zergs will be content with the un-preventable nydas worms and mutas for harass (cheaper, more useful)
Tempest- why nerf a niche unit anyway? First, get your story straight- is it midgame pvz that is an issue, lategame pvz that is an issue, or pvz overall that's an issue? I don't think tempests are the problem here, somewhere along the line they just became the autistic kid in the family that no one really bothered to deal with.
Viper- stats are already good. It's a great unit that shows up in the game too late to help vs midgame toss deathballs to matter. Works well as is vs meching terrans and LOTV proposed changes (especially roach burrow and ravager zoning) are already going to help zergs a lot.
Counteroffer: make viper available at spire tech. Add spire upgrade for faster consumption or make able to consume creep tumors (they already kind of have the ability to take queen energy with transfuse right? this would just be a tactical tradeoff that allows vipers to get some mana on the go.
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Could just remove SH. Admit their mistake.
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What bothers me the most is blizzard saying that they don't get enough feedback. While not even considering that their direction might be wrong.
Here is feedback:
Fucking free units that get launched from 20,30, 40, 50 range will now also be able to fly. Ask any player that just got out of Swarm Host game about which part of the last game he didn't enjoy. The answer will be:
"THEY ARE FUCKING FREE. HE KILLS STUFF WITHOUT ANY FUCKING RISK OR COST!"
The idea to make them fly enforces that principle.
The idea to let Swarm Hosts run around at Stalker Speed and evade all harm enforces that principle.
You want feedback? Here is feedback from someone who tried the map (not very often because it is hard to find players) and the inoffical LotV mod (in which many conditions are different, but there is still the flying locust SH to try):
Get rid of the combination of free units and longrange. You may solve the issue of long games with this patch (which in itself is only an issue for some players), but you are still not creating something that is fun to play or play against. People are not going to combat against free units. It's going to be free damage from one player done to another player. And then the Swarm Hosts will go offline for 60seconds and the other player is going to do free damage to the first player. That is not interesting, that is like putting a boxsack into the ring and ask the athletes to take turns on hitting it, instead of hitting each other.
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I think what forced many zerg players to go SH was that they really lack choices playing vs a patient turtling player who just goes for 200/200 army because zerg's core units lack supply efficiency. SHs are very supply effective right now. So there is a supply effectiveness gap that has to be filled with somehow. Supply effective zerg units are blords, banes, infestors, and corruptors. Corruptors are vs air, and banes don't work in 200/200 situations. So are zergs supposed to go back to infestor broodlord composition?
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On February 26 2015 11:45 Garemie wrote:
Could just remove SH. Admit their mistake.
right,
and also remove the Viper "Tongue", that is the worst idea ever thought.
...and add the Dark Archon!!!!
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On February 26 2015 05:29 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:26 Shuffleblade wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Omg, SH has become super expensive units that for long durations is just dead weight. I'm pretty sure SH the way the test map before this one had changed them made them pretty much useless. Too expensive to just use for harass (unless late game) and leaving waaaay too big of an opening if you make too many to try and actually "fight" with them.
Seriously the duration you have on you to counter a SH player is more than enough, with WG or medivacs you can even exploit the window that SH is just dead weight without even having to wait for the locusts to die off. If your bio gets attacked by locusts just loead you medivacs and boost into Zs base, the locusts will be dead by the time they run back and by the time SH can make more locusts the main is totally annihilated. If you want to argue "erm what if they attack me with locusts while I'm turtling in my base, don't turtle in your base against the new SH. There's no point, the weakness of the SH is counterattack if you are active on the map you have a huge advantage.
The 5 seconds reduce in how long the locusts last doesn't mainly effect the way the time gap can be exploited against SH in my opinion it will reduce the effectiveness of locusts. I think this is an outright stupid idea, I mean the time gap that a player has to counter SH is huge as it is, it wil keep being huge. The difference is that locusts will make even less damage.
It seems the design team is thinking that P and T and is going to turtle against SH like the use to do, lol, WHY would they do that it would be retarted. Imagine T or P takes map control, which they can easily do seeing as there is a huge time gap between the locusts waves. If they scout locusts coming they can just retreat with their army and the locusts won't even scratch the enemy, then when the locusts die the P or T army can you just go and outright kill the Z player. Are blizzard thinking the Z player is supposed to yolo the SH into the enemy army and release the locusts hoping they can get some damage off? Skillful players will keep map control against SH and they won't get close enough to even scratch a base, I don't think SH would be used at all besides the late game with the previous changes that was planed. Nerfing them even harder is just silly.
Blizzard even say it themselves, that they are nerfing them so hard that they can't even fulfill their role anymore. But hey they are great harass units if you have 1000min 1000 gasto throw away at units that can't be used in an actual fight.... Which is like never I'm OK with SH and Tempests being nerfed into oblivion. Those units should never have existed in the first place, what is going on is the closest Blizzard could come with their stupid pride to being reasonable and throwing those shames of units away.
From seeing some of your other posts, I don't think we enjoy the same type of metagame. However, I hate tempests and SH as well. These units should never have gone past HotS beta. I guess these units united the community. Against them.
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On February 26 2015 09:01 CthulhuWarlord wrote:
I think it would be a cool change for Zerg to make queens massive, mostly to help defend against force fielding the main ramp.
This idea has been around for awhile and from what I recall it was not done for two main reasons: phoenix won't be able to pick up queens anymore and ... force fields  . Seriously though with ravagers we Zergs won't have the same kinds of problems with FF.
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They should give Medivacs the ability to pick up sieged Siege Tanks.
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Actually, come to think of it the simplest solution for now would probably just be to make locusts cost something like 5 minerals each (maybe increase their hp or something to compensate). As many people have pointed out, SH games are not necessarily boring to watch. The problem comes when the game takes more than an hour to complete and progress stops happening. If locusts had a cost then the game would at least have a time limit once the map was completely mined out.
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F**k it dog... Let it burn, let it all burn to the ground... "Mew mew mew" zerglings burnin'.... "Arggghhhh, not like this!" Marines burnin'... "puff (blue smoke)" ez race protoss burnin'...
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EPT
