Balance Test Map Update - February 25 - Page 12

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 27 2015 18:10 GMT

#221

On February 28 2015 02:34 MrFreeman wrote:
Is it OK to post here what I posted to battle.net about this topic or do you recognize it as a duplicity post?
Thanks

Post it, quote it, link it.
It's not a duplicate unless you posted it here already I believe.

MrFreeman

207 Posts

February 28 2015 20:38 GMT

#222

On February 28 2015 03:10 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

Post it, quote it, link it.
It's not a duplicate unless you posted it here already I believe.

Thanks for ur answer :-) .

Personally I think that 100% balance on lower skill levels isn´t that important and isn´t achievable.
As for the achievability, it is easy to explain, in a complex game relative profit from an aspect of chosen race is different on each skill level and with growing complexity and skill diversity, it is still more difficult to have the design to account for each skill level and it is unrealistic to expect this.
Fortunately, it is not needed, all you need to care about is an even matchup. It doesn´t matter that much, if your opponent is little better or worse and the gap is filled with the race strength difference on your specific skill level as long as the design is consistent and robust and it stays relevant to both races you are not playing.
Of course, it has to be perfectly balanced on the top levels, because you want the most skilled player to win that is why it is OK for me, if their balance focus lays on the pro-level players. They probably also provide better feedback.
What they need to get rid off is frustrating things that make players of all skill levels not play and I think that is exactly what they are after here. Other thing they need is to avoid paper, stone, scissors scenario, where race one has edge on race 2 but is weak against race 3 on some skill level, but again, I think they are on that.
I personally would like game to be little bit less stressful as well. It could for example allow greater zoom-out, allow queuing of things you don´t have the money for (maybe with delay in beginning of the production, to profit good macro), give info about total amount of each unit/structure/upgrade to the payer, like in replay, more auto-cast, but it doesn't seem they want to go this way, but that is only my personal preference :-) .

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

March 01 2015 23:15 GMT

#223

Since blizzard hasn't updated the map, I released a map named:

Deadwing LE (Balance Jay)

that implemented the changes mentioned in the OP on top of the ones that are already live in the blizzard test map.

mongoose22

174 Posts

March 09 2015 02:34 GMT

#224

Blizzard updated their balance test map on Thursday with the stated changes:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18184815/call-to-action-march-5-balance-testing-3-5-2015

KeksX

Germany3634 Posts

March 09 2015 04:02 GMT

#225

I still think that the fact that it's Deadwing is a big factor that not many players actually try it out.

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

March 09 2015 08:47 GMT

#226

On February 28 2015 01:51 Tuczniak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 28 2015 00:50 SC2Toastie wrote:

On February 28 2015 00:41 Big J wrote:

On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:

On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game.

Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things.
And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race.

I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years.

They don't do it for no reason.
terran doesnt even have lategame units, so stop the qq. It's a massive change, we don't even know the effects.

The effects are very easy to see. The moved SH from core lategame unit to purely harrass role. It's not like people never played without swamhosts, they had and it doesn't work in lategame.

the effects on the overal game are impossivle to see, and biased forum knights make it hard to change anything in this game the right way. I simply cannot understand how people complain about balance in this topic...

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

March 09 2015 12:33 GMT

#227

On March 09 2015 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 28 2015 01:51 Tuczniak wrote:

On February 28 2015 00:50 SC2Toastie wrote:

On February 28 2015 00:41 Big J wrote:

On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:

I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years.

They don't do it for no reason.
terran doesnt even have lategame units, so stop the qq. It's a massive change, we don't even know the effects.

The effects are very easy to see. The moved SH from core lategame unit to purely harrass role. It's not like people never played without swamhosts, they had and it doesn't work in lategame.

Have you played one of those testmaps? Have you? Because I have, quite a bit - though it is obviously hard to get equal skilled opponents.
You keep on saying that we can't know the effects, but you know what, the people who actually test it can get a very good feel for it. And so far I can only say I'm very concerned for balance and even more the change isn't good to begin with. Everyone who has lost a base to locusts randomly flying in from some random angle doesn't have good words for the unit. Everyone who tried to hold anything with those 200gas/4supply abominations hasn't had a good word for the unit.
--> it isn't even a good solution to the existing problem to begin with.

If this patch goes through like that my prediction is that we might see a few games in which those Swarm Hosts win games because it is zerg and the right way to deal with zerg tech stuff is usually to put on pressure at the right times and limit them from even doing that and people will have to find those points in time. Then zergs will realize that they can't hold anything when they build those Swarm Hosts because they are too expensive, at best they can snipe a nexus and forcing the opponent to pull his workers, while the enemy is ravaging your stuff with an army that sits on top your production and just wins the game. Then Zergs are going to push Swarm Hosts out of their gameplan because everything else is going to be more important and then we will end up with the same endgame plays from Terran and Protoss just without Swarm Hosts.

I guess against Protoss turtling into massive Broodlord timings might actually become a thing again though.

The least thing blizzard should do to try and counterbalance is reintroducing the Terran Air Upgrades (which is something they are planning for LotV anyways) so that a Terran cannot go as freely from shitting on all your ground with Factory Tech into shitting on all that's left with Starport tech.

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