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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 26 2015 23:58 Polemarch wrote:
For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus.
I am fairly certain tempest had their +massive vs ground removed a while ago.
EDIT: Indeed
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Ofcourse Tempest attacks Collossus as Air Attack like Phoenix to Collosus.
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All these changes sound pretty decent to me, I think it'll be a good change should they go through.
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Italy12247 Posts
On February 26 2015 23:58 Polemarch wrote:
For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus.
Colossi count as air units iirc, which is why corruptors/vikings can hit them. I might be wrong though.
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On February 27 2015 02:47 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 23:58 Polemarch wrote:
For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus. Colossi count as air units iirc, which is why corruptors/vikings can hit them. I might be wrong though.
Colossi count as both. Units that have seperate vs. ground and vs. air attacks will always use the one that's stronger against the target, which is why the current Tempest uses its vs. air attack against Colossi. And yes, the Tempest's + massive damage vs ground was removed ages ago. I think when HotS was still in beta, actually.
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Yeah best example of this is, Thor if in range will use ground attack, but if u have single target hit mode on, if the colossus is only in range of the air attack the thor will use that one.
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I feel like Blizzard is slowly letting this game die off purposly by seemingly having interns do the balance patching like this...
They are clearly focused on Heroes of the Storm where the money is...
User was warned for this post
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I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation.
As for mech, aerial Locust + Blinding Cloud +2range will make sure Tanks go back to their place of TvT staple, they're not strong and this just adds a hardcounter and buffs another.
I don't like putting Tanks back into non-existence...
On February 27 2015 03:39 MagnuMizer wrote:
I feel like Blizzard is slowly letting this game die off purposly by seemingly having interns do the balance patching like this...
They are clearly focused on Heroes of the Storm where the money is...
Here's that company giving us biweekly updates on their balancing. They must not care daed gaem fuck blizzard noobnoob game never good no skill balance interns DK get a disease alallalala trollolol herpderp
Go to https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/ with your stupid comments, please, thank you very much.
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I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation.
This could however shake up Mech and lategame PvT, since it effectively makes the BC a counter to the Tempest and the Carrier. This is a massive blow to Skytoss vs Mech (I'm 100% not complaining about this, but this needs to be pointed out), making mass BC with Yamato a very strong lategame composition. Same goes probably for bio, even to a much lesser extend. But still, this could severly shake up how Terran can play the TvP lategame or even the TvP game at all.
PvZ the change makes Broodlords very, very strong in many scenarios. Broodlords aren't unplayable now, they are just not stable and need to come as surprise against a ground-reliant Protoss player. With this change just having Broodlords in your army (which are a very supplyefficient comambat unit against any ground unit in the game, if not straight up the best) in the lategame might become viable, which changes the combat dynamics a lot and is very hard to predict, but obviously a very strong buff to Broodlords.
PvP is the matchup I know the least about, but from my impressions I'd say that this makes sitting on your ass and rushing out Colossi much stronger. HotS PvP often uses a much more dynamic Immortal/Archon midgame and later Colossi than WoL, but I think without the Tempest you may as well just lean back and mass double robo Colossi early.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:10 SC2Toastie wrote:I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation. As for mech, aerial Locust + Blinding Cloud +2range will make sure Tanks go back to their place of TvT staple, they're not strong and this just adds a hardcounter and buffs another. I don't like putting Tanks back into non-existence... Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 03:39 MagnuMizer wrote:
I feel like Blizzard is slowly letting this game die off purposly by seemingly having interns do the balance patching like this...
They are clearly focused on Heroes of the Storm where the money is... Here's that company giving us biweekly updates on their balancing. They must not care daed gaem fuck blizzard noobnoob game never good no skill balance interns DK get a disease alallalala trollolol herpderp Go to https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/ with your stupid comments, please, thank you very much.
I mean, this change does not really do anything to mass tempest for reason you mentioned. What this change does achieve is actually killing a strat of mixing in 4-5 tempests to one-shot collosi/broods/BCs (never happens, but whatever).
Also, are not aerial locust wrecked by Thor AoE anyways?
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On February 27 2015 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation. This could however shake up Mech and lategame PvT, since it effectively makes the BC a counter to the Tempest and the Carrier. This is a massive blow to Skytoss vs Mech (I'm 100% not complaining about this, but this needs to be pointed out), making mass BC with Yamato a very strong lategame composition. Same goes probably for bio, even to a much lesser extend. But still, this could severly shake up how Terran can play the TvP lategame or even the TvP game at all. PvZ the change makes Broodlords very, very strong in many scenarios. Broodlords aren't unplayable now, they are just not stable and need to come as surprise against a ground-reliant Protoss player. With this change just having Broodlords in your army (which are a very supplyefficient comambat unit against any ground unit in the game, if not straight up the best) in the lategame might become viable, which changes the combat dynamics a lot and is very hard to predict, but obviously a very strong buff to Broodlords. PvP is the matchup I know the least about, but from my impressions I'd say that this makes sitting on your ass and rushing out Colossi much stronger. HotS PvP often uses a much more dynamic Immortal/Archon midgame and later Colossi than WoL, but I think without the Tempest you may as well just lean back and mass double robo Colossi early.
PVT: I don't think buffing Terran lategame can be argued against. PvT is incredibly stupid past a certain phase in the game and Terran receiving a possible transition only improves that.
PVZ: Broodlords are ONLY strong if Protoss is too late in getting a counter out. They're slow, fragile units. Instead of a 3-hit kill (A 15 range 3-hit kill on a unit that costs 300/250. Seriously?) it's more like 7/8 hits. This makes Broodlords usable, with Queen support, even when Protoss has the counter out. I don't see a problem in this situation either. You'll just have to engage and harass the Broodlords before the main engagement starts. Additionally, Locust nerfs means Broodlords might be more necessary to ensure presence on the ground for Zerg.
PVP: Whilst this might once again draw in the Collosi wars, this is a problem with Gateways and Collosi people have been complaining about for 5 years. I really do not want to see potentially excellent PvZ and PvT changes stopped (AGAIN) because Protoss is an atrociously designed race.
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Why was the ground +massive removed from Tempest in the first place?
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On February 27 2015 04:41 Tenks wrote:
Why was the ground +massive removed from Tempest in the first place?
It was stupidly powerful against Ultralisk IIRC. Sick damage vs Archon and Thor were stupid as well.
Overall, 15 range is stupid. Adding a 80 damage attack (over 20 DPS IIRC) is realllllyyy stupid.
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swarmhost totally (wanted to use some other words here but changed last second to make post less offensive) useless now good job blizz. "make them a harras unit only in small groups" in other words a crappy version of oracle, BUT NO NOW ONLY HARRAS UNIT NO PROBLEM, if its a protoss unit it has to be multifunctional but zerg units being crappy and annoying as hell seems to be like the life goal of blizzard.
i might be overreacting and the swarmhost may not be that bad but it sure seems like a weird choice to make a new harras only unit, while they tried so hard to make the oracle also a valiable army unit, even to the point they "almost" made it OP.
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On February 27 2015 04:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 04:41 Tenks wrote:
Why was the ground +massive removed from Tempest in the first place? It was stupidly powerful against Ultralisk IIRC. Sick damage vs Archon and Thor were stupid as well. Overall, 15 range is stupid. Adding a 80 damage attack (over 20 DPS IIRC) is realllllyyy stupid.
I agree the Tempest fundamentally is a really silly unit. I always forget Archons are massive. But I feel if you need to tweak the damage numbers so much depending on if the unit is shooting ground or shooting air that should be a sign that the unit itself is flawed.
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Could you show me the 10 replays of you trying the new SH out on the test map and explain why the games prove they are useless? Thank you!
PS your example makes no sense.
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On February 27 2015 04:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 04:32 Big J wrote:I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation. This could however shake up Mech and lategame PvT, since it effectively makes the BC a counter to the Tempest and the Carrier. This is a massive blow to Skytoss vs Mech (I'm 100% not complaining about this, but this needs to be pointed out), making mass BC with Yamato a very strong lategame composition. Same goes probably for bio, even to a much lesser extend. But still, this could severly shake up how Terran can play the TvP lategame or even the TvP game at all. PvZ the change makes Broodlords very, very strong in many scenarios. Broodlords aren't unplayable now, they are just not stable and need to come as surprise against a ground-reliant Protoss player. With this change just having Broodlords in your army (which are a very supplyefficient comambat unit against any ground unit in the game, if not straight up the best) in the lategame might become viable, which changes the combat dynamics a lot and is very hard to predict, but obviously a very strong buff to Broodlords. PvP is the matchup I know the least about, but from my impressions I'd say that this makes sitting on your ass and rushing out Colossi much stronger. HotS PvP often uses a much more dynamic Immortal/Archon midgame and later Colossi than WoL, but I think without the Tempest you may as well just lean back and mass double robo Colossi early. PVT: I don't think buffing Terran lategame can be argued against. PvT is incredibly stupid past a certain phase in the game and Terran receiving a possible transition only improves that. PVZ: Broodlords are ONLY strong if Protoss is too late in getting a counter out. They're slow, fragile units. Instead of a 3-hit kill (A 15 range 3-hit kill on a unit that costs 300/250. Seriously?) it's more like 7/8 hits. This makes Broodlords usable, with Queen support, even when Protoss has the counter out. I don't see a problem in this situation either. You'll just have to engage and harass the Broodlords before the main engagement starts. Additionally, Locust nerfs means Broodlords might be more necessary to ensure presence on the ground for Zerg. PVP: Whilst this might once again draw in the Collosi wars, this is a problem with Gateways and Collosi people have been complaining about for 5 years. I really do not want to see potentially excellent PvZ and PvT changes stopped (AGAIN) because Protoss is an atrociously designed race.
I fully agree with PvT, just wanted to point it out that it has potential to deeply alter some gameplans to begin with. Since you were saying it's not as big of a deal, but I think it is only not as big of a deal if the players still play the way they do with the change.
PvZ it is very hard to evalute, even without putting the SH changes into the picture. And will not be evaluated through the Test Map, the changes are way too deep to be figured out soon. HotS has changed so many variables in the early- and midgame of PvZ (mainly for the better), that the situations in which Broodlords can make sense and when they can't after such a Tempest change are pretty much unexplored.
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anyone online to play the balance test map?
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I don't know if PvT really changes. BC will still be vulnerable to feedback and VRs. I don't think it was the Tempest that was keeping BC out of the matchup.
-edit-
Wait I've got it. You use the flying and fatness of the BC to make it so the Protoss can't actually click your Ghosts to feedback them allowing you free reign to carpet bomb with EMP and snipes. Genius.
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EPT
