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On February 27 2015 05:36 Tenks wrote:
I don't know if PvT really changes. BC will still be vulnerable to feedback and VRs. I don't think it was the Tempest that was keeping BC out of the matchup.
-edit-
Wait I've got it. You use the flying and fatness of the BC to make it so the Protoss can't actually click your Ghosts to feedback them allowing you free reign to carpet bomb with EMP and snipes. Genius.
Feedback through minimap or zoom in like terran does vs obs 
But the idea is fun ^_^
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You don't even need to actually click them to feedback?! You dirty Protoss *shakes fist at sky*
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I'd like to see Blizz try something really radical with SH, like make them bigger and stronger, but cost 8 supply 400/400, and spawn 12-20 locusts for a mineral cost that are much weaker and attack like interceptors. You know like a ground-based version of the protoss carrier. You only need/can afford a few of them to back up your army.
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On February 27 2015 06:22 ElMeanYo wrote:
I'd like to see Blizz try something really radical with SH, like make them bigger and stronger, but cost 8 supply 400/400, and spawn 12-20 locusts for a mineral cost that are much weaker and attack like interceptors. You know like a ground-based version of the protoss carrier. You only need/can afford a few of them to back up your army.
That sounds awful. An 8 supply unit? And why would we want anything like the carrier?!
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On February 27 2015 06:22 ElMeanYo wrote:
I'd like to see Blizz try something really radical with SH, like make them bigger and stronger, but cost 8 supply 400/400, and spawn 12-20 locusts for a mineral cost that are much weaker and attack like interceptors. You know like a ground-based version of the protoss carrier. You only need/can afford a few of them to back up your army.
Seeing as how that costs more than the Mothership, it would be more comparable to a Mothership than a Carrier. I think that's a terrible idea.
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Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army.
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yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game.
User was warned for this post
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its not about nerfing zerg, for gods sake buff the SH whatever as long as its not boring unit design as it is now...
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On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game.
Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things.
And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race.
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On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army.
A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale.
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On February 28 2015 00:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army. A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale.
until you weight in the cost for infestation pit, swarmhost cost and the total absence of drop defense.
I don't even know why people keep thinking free units means no risk, with some slight tweak, swarmhost efficiency will be reliant on player's skill.
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On February 28 2015 00:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army. A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale.
"No risk reaper" is taking it a little harsh. Due to the relatively low duration of Locusts now, you have to get the host fairly close to your actual target. I wouldn't say it's risk-free, just less risky. Which should be fine considering the cost and tech-requirement of the unit and the fact that it takes away a lot of firing power for zerg.
I hate that the testmap is on Deadwing, it's not only the map I'm least likely to go swarmhosts to harrass because Mutas are so much better, but it also has shitty spawning positions. Also am I mistaken or is the EU version not up to date?
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On February 28 2015 00:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army. A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale.
I mean, it's certainly a risk using that much supply and gas on just a few harass units, which ultimately makes your main army weaker in a fight. And is a reaper really risky either? If you micro it properly, you really should not be losing it.
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On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game. Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things. And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race.
I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years.
Meanwhile the Colossus is still the same bullshit it has been, Terran is still able to play the game without having to think about transitions past 10mins and one annoying infromation-gamble play after the other has been added for 4years since the 2011 Immortal buff.
They nerf Zergs core lategame ground unit and then talk about how they want Tempests to be weaker vs Broodlords. Why not nerf the Colossus and the High Templar? Those are the main reasons* why we build Swarm Hosts against Protoss. Not the Tempest. Not the Voidray. Not the Carrier. We can deal with all of that with hydralisks and mutalisks and stuff like that. But we can't deal with what the Protoss builds to kill our hydralisks in the first place. Also it would be way fairer. My core gameplan for lategame is gone, yours is gone. Not: "Your gameplan is gone, but there might be a new one with that other patch. Maybe you'll figure it out in the next half year. If not, well, we hope you don't mind losing a lot while your opponents can still play exactly as they played before."
*of course it is the combination of all of those units. But if it wasn't for ultimate Colossus+HT+Immortal+Gateway combos destroying all our ground forces with hardly any scratches we wouldn't even have to talk about how Zerg has to switch into air deathballs or Swarm Host turtles to begin with.
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On February 28 2015 00:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game. Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things. And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race. I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years.
They don't do it for no reason.
terran doesnt even have lategame units, so stop the qq. It's a massive change, we don't even know the effects.
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On February 28 2015 00:50 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 00:41 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game. Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things. And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race. I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years. They don't do it for no reason. terran doesnt even have lategame units, so stop the qq. It's a massive change, we don't even know the effects.
This.
On February 27 2015 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think the Tempest change is as large as people make it out to be. You don't mass tempest in PvZ or PvT because of their anti-massive strenght - you mass them because of the range in tandem with Psionic Storm and Revelation. This could however shake up Mech and lategame PvT, since it effectively makes the BC a counter to the Tempest and the Carrier. This is a massive blow to Skytoss vs Mech (I'm 100% not complaining about this, but this needs to be pointed out), making mass BC with Yamato a very strong lategame composition. Same goes probably for bio, even to a much lesser extend. But still, this could severly shake up how Terran can play the TvP lategame or even the TvP game at all.
Now this is going to be really cool. With how lopsided PvMech is in being Protoss favored this will finally allow the BC to get some usage.
Kudos to Blizzard for addressing the absolutely terrible design of the Tempest hard-courting all capital ships out of the game, and SH's toxicity (though it still remains to be seen if the new SH will be problematic).
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On February 28 2015 00:30 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 00:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army. A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale. I mean, it's certainly a risk using that much supply and gas on just a few harass units, which ultimately makes your main army weaker in a fight. And is a reaper really risky either? If you micro it properly, you really should not be losing it.
As you shouldnt lose your swarmhosts either. It wasnt a balance complain, just thinking that the "reaper" comparison is utterly stupid. And these swarmhosts will do more in fights than reapers because they still can deal dmg from far away.
I didnt say it was good or bad. Me personally I am all in favor of this change because picking off some units here and there and harrassing is more exciting than having a snowball unit which drags out the game unneccessarily long and noone has fun playing against it (Yes I know there are still other units like this in the game). It rewards Apm/ beeing active with those things and get as much dmg done as possible.
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On February 28 2015 01:22 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 00:30 ohmylanta1003 wrote:On February 28 2015 00:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:On February 27 2015 08:56 sagefreke wrote:
Swarm Host sounds like a really expensive Reaper now. Good to make in a group of 3-4 to harass a base MAYBE, but they're not worth keeping in your army. A no risk Reaper. You can keep them active and trade still constantly. Just not anymore in this great scale. I mean, it's certainly a risk using that much supply and gas on just a few harass units, which ultimately makes your main army weaker in a fight. And is a reaper really risky either? If you micro it properly, you really should not be losing it. As you shouldnt lose your swarmhosts either. It wasnt a balance complain, just thinking that the "reaper" comparison is utterly stupid. And these swarmhosts will do more in fights than reapers because they still can deal dmg from far away. I didnt say it was good or bad. Me personally I am all in favor of this change because picking off some units here and there and harrassing is more exciting than having a snowball unit which drags out the game unneccessarily long and noone has fun playing against it (Yes I know there are still other units like this in the game). It rewards Apm/ beeing active with those things and get as much dmg done as possible.
Agreed. You really can't compare it to the reaper at all. It's so far off from it, actually, that I'm surprised they were even compared. And I think it will be great for Zerg to have a back door harass option other than the Muta.
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On February 28 2015 00:50 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 00:41 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 23:35 Phaenoman wrote:On February 27 2015 09:15 baabaa wrote:
yes, let's nerf zerg because obviously they are winning everything right now!!! LOL. Where would zerg show up at top levels if you take out the superhuman play of Life? Blizzard, you want zerg to be able to deal with terran mech ? here's a thought? nerf terran mech. instead you decide to nerf something zerg needs against it and then let zerg figure it out. Makes perfect sense. you want zerg to be able to deal with protoss mass air? here's a crazy idea -- nerf protoss air!!!! any thought to maybe decreasing the completely ridiculous range of tempests? even by 1 range unit? NAH, protoss obviously needs every bit of that so that they don't lose any of their precious tempests. Of course, zerg can afford to lose entire lategame armies and they're still fine, so who cares about that. The only reason zerg was surviving against protoss lategame as it is was using mass swarm hosts!!! so you decided to remove that, now toss beats zerg for sure in lategame. oh well,, just reason 76 (every single one related to new units and balance) to not buy LoTV. tempest nerf is at least something that makes sense (I guess someone at blizzard DID happen to notice that protoss were making tons of tempests lategame and winning easily against zerg, something so bloody obvious with the design of the unit that no testing is even necessary). At times I think rolling dice to decide how to design new units would stand a better chance of balance than what is being done. So zerg needs to be prevented from basing armies around swarmhosts... logically, here's some other armies that need to be nerfed: bio mine, terran mech, hellbats, immortal sentry stalker, colossus voidray stalker, forcefields, right? nah, seeing these armies melt zerg armies with nearly no losses is just part of the game. Calm down. Take a step back and think without ur Zerg-eyes. We do not want any race to be underpowered or overpowered so we can win ezly. We want a fun game, not frustrating 2h games. If the SH change (nerf/ buff,up to u how u wanna call it) is healthy for the game, but makes Zerg weak, they will tweak other things. And even if u say that mech is the issue that is causing all this, then I can assure u 99% of all mech players would appreciate to be able to move out much earlier than 200/200. We could continue the same way with Protoss etc. etc. Try to improve the game as a whole.. not only ur race. I agree, but I can fully understand baabaa's frustration. Blizzard keeps on doing this to zerg, trashing our core lategame units every two years. They don't do it for no reason. terran doesnt even have lategame units, so stop the qq. It's a massive change, we don't even know the effects. The effects are very easy to see. The moved SH from core lategame unit to purely harrass role. It's not like people never played without swamhosts, they had and it doesn't work in lategame.
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Is it OK to post here what I posted to battle.net about this topic or do you recognize it as a duplicity post?
Thanks
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EPT
