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On February 26 2015 06:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:39 Whitewing wrote:
They don't want to remove the massive tag from broodlords because of ZvZ, and doing this might make battlecruisers more common in TvP. I guess they just don't mind the damage to PvP with this change, which is unfortunate, because I was really loving the Templar into Tempest style we were seeing from players like Rain. Only time I saw Rain attempting something gateway based into tempests he died pitifully to Zest's colossi on King Sejong Station. Do you have games showcasing that style ?
LOL, if you're talking about last year's Proleague finals SKT vs KT, Rain vs Zest on King Sejong Station, Zest lost pitifully.
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I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
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For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus.
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On February 26 2015 23:58 Polemarch wrote:
For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus.
When tempests fire at colossi, do they use the air or the ground attack?
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Tempests do not deal +massive vs ground targets, the reason it worked on Colossus is because it is considered both ground and air.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Another balance test thread without banner? Ohh
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TF90k1G.png)
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On February 27 2015 00:06 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 23:58 Polemarch wrote:
For those talking about the effect of the tempest change on PvP vs. colossus:
The change text was:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
So tempest will still have +massive damage vs. massive ground units like ultralisks and colossus. When tempests fire at colossi, do they use the air or the ground attack?
Are people actually aware that Tempests do only bonus damage vs Massive AIR units (current state) or do they not read Unit descriptions? They only dealt bonus damage to ground and air in HotS beta as far as I remember.
And to answer the question: Yes Tempests use their Air weapon vs Colossus.
I like the changes. Im only a bit concerned about the Viper change. They are already very strong Casters that can render an entire ground army useless. Its not as bad for Battle Hellions as they are somehow Melee fighters anyway. But for Tanks and Thors this is horrible. You cant just unsiege your Tanks and run out of it since it takes them 4 seconds to do that, which is almost half the time BCloud lasts. And kiting with Tanks isnt that good either cause of non-trackin turrets and bad damage point. For Thors its even worse because their damage point is terrible. They stare several seconds at their target before opening fire. Maybe they should increase the energy cost to 125 or 150 to compensate for it so its not that spammable and Vipers can consume to regenerate Energy anyways. But I do understand that Zerg needs some other options to fight (and I mean FIGHT not completely counter it) Mech.
Oh and on Feedback: How do they recieve feedback and where do we leave our thoughts? Im sure they mostly look for feedback on the US forums. I dont think they will read the german forums and recieve it.
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On February 27 2015 00:29 Existor wrote:Another balance test thread without banner? Ohh + Show Spoiler +
You're so sick Existor <3
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On February 26 2015 11:55 Big J wrote:What bothers me the most is blizzard saying that they don't get enough feedback. While not even considering that their direction might be wrong. Here is feedback: Fucking free units that get launched from 20,30, 40, 50 range will now also be able to fly. Ask any player that just got out of Swarm Host game about which part of the last game he didn't enjoy. The answer will be: "THEY ARE FUCKING FREE. HE KILLS STUFF WITHOUT ANY FUCKING RISK OR COST!"The idea to make them fly enforces that principle. The idea to let Swarm Hosts run around at Stalker Speed and evade all harm enforces that principle. You want feedback? Here is feedback from someone who tried the map (not very often because it is hard to find players) and the inoffical LotV mod (in which many conditions are different, but there is still the flying locust SH to try): Get rid of the combination of free units and longrange. You may solve the issue of long games with this patch (which in itself is only an issue for some players), but you are still not creating something that is fun to play or play against. People are not going to combat against free units. It's going to be free damage from one player done to another player. And then the Swarm Hosts will go offline for 60seconds and the other player is going to do free damage to the first player. That is not interesting, that is like putting a boxsack into the ring and ask the athletes to take turns on hitting it, instead of hitting each other.
I agree on the feedback point, but let me push back on SH a bit. I find as a concept manageable. They function similarly to a siege tank, if they are set up, you need to avoid that area or lose way too much. Siege tank pushes function similarly to SH: unless the line is broken with overwhelming force, they will kill everything incredibly cost-effectively.
I just think the unit doesn't work with Z as well, if you can build tons at once, you can tech-switch to kill too easily, and if they are too costly and weak, losing them one loses you the game every single time.
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I like the tidal wave aspect that Swarm Host brings to the table. So the more it becomes non-constant semi threats the better.
The things they should consider with the new change, is the upgrade is not always an improvement, but a change in role. With the upgrade it becomes what they envision, but I can totally see some players neglect the upgrade, have the extra speed that comes with walking on Creep and play it out as they do currently pre patch, but with more utilization of Infestors and static defense.
It'll be a lot harder to get to, but they can still create stalemate situations which is what we want to prevent.
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Do people consider that flying locusts can die before locusts alight and attack? Yes Terran and Protoss units which can attack air units can attack flying locusts.
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On February 27 2015 00:49 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 11:55 Big J wrote:What bothers me the most is blizzard saying that they don't get enough feedback. While not even considering that their direction might be wrong. Here is feedback: Fucking free units that get launched from 20,30, 40, 50 range will now also be able to fly. Ask any player that just got out of Swarm Host game about which part of the last game he didn't enjoy. The answer will be: "THEY ARE FUCKING FREE. HE KILLS STUFF WITHOUT ANY FUCKING RISK OR COST!"The idea to make them fly enforces that principle. The idea to let Swarm Hosts run around at Stalker Speed and evade all harm enforces that principle. You want feedback? Here is feedback from someone who tried the map (not very often because it is hard to find players) and the inoffical LotV mod (in which many conditions are different, but there is still the flying locust SH to try): Get rid of the combination of free units and longrange. You may solve the issue of long games with this patch (which in itself is only an issue for some players), but you are still not creating something that is fun to play or play against. People are not going to combat against free units. It's going to be free damage from one player done to another player. And then the Swarm Hosts will go offline for 60seconds and the other player is going to do free damage to the first player. That is not interesting, that is like putting a boxsack into the ring and ask the athletes to take turns on hitting it, instead of hitting each other. I agree on the feedback point, but let me push back on SH a bit. I find as a concept manageable. They function similarly to a siege tank, if they are set up, you need to avoid that area or lose way too much. Siege tank pushes function similarly to SH: unless the line is broken with overwhelming force, they will kill everything incredibly cost-effectively. I just think the unit doesn't work with Z as well, if you can build tons at once, you can tech-switch to kill too easily, and if they are too costly and weak, losing them one loses you the game every single time.
I'm going to disagree with you, there's no analogy between swarmhosts and siege tanks simply because both function differently , yes, you may say that both are siege units(maybe the only common term, loosely) , but, again, both function differently.
Anyway, in my oppinion, swarmhosts shouldn't have been added in HotS (and we already know by now that that wasn't the brightest idea), instead let zerg players use Vipers as core composition (which is by far the most potent counter to terran/protoss if used properly), favoring a more dynamic game play. What can I say, right now swarmhosts are way too disruptive , as in forcing the opponent to take a much more careful (more than necessary sometimes) approach hence killing the dynamic of the game.
All in all, guess ppl back in beta were to busy scolding the "newest" terran unit aka "Warhound" to realize the potential "damage" swarmhost can inflict.
Mistakes over mistakes that we have to live with...
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On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
The fact that people could learn to play better against swarm hosts over time isn't the point. Swarm hosts aren't really "OP" (though certainly they're one of the strongest units in the game)--all you have to do is watch Koreans play against Swarm Hosts to see this. It requires a particular style that's very different from the way you play against other styles and most foreigners don't seen to be very good at it. The issue with swarm hosts as presently designed is they actively encourage ridiculously boring nonsense games that have the entertainment value of watching someone play Pong (or a little less). Thankfully I never watch games live anyway, so whenever I see a mass swarm host game starting I just skip to the next game but making people do that is no way to make an e-sport more popular. They need to go and frankly end of Season 1 is too long to wait.
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On February 27 2015 01:27 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
The fact that people could learn to play better against swarm hosts over time isn't the point. Swarm hosts aren't really "OP" (though certainly they're one of the strongest units in the game)--all you have to do is watch Koreans play against Swarm Hosts to see this. It requires a particular style that's very different from the way you play against other styles and most foreigners don't seen to be very good at it. The issue with swarm hosts as presently designed is they actively encourage ridiculously boring nonsense games that have the entertainment value of watching someone play Pong (or a little less). Thankfully I never watch games live anyway, so whenever I see a mass swarm host game starting I just skip to the next game but making people do that is no way to make an e-sport more popular. They need to go and frankly end of Season 1 is too long to wait.
I dunno, if Swarm Hosts encourage the Zerg player to be passive and to defend, then it also encourages the Protoss/Mech player to be aggressive and harass/attack, and thus gives exciting games. See Snute vs herO at IEM Toronto.
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On February 27 2015 01:23 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 00:49 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 26 2015 11:55 Big J wrote:What bothers me the most is blizzard saying that they don't get enough feedback. While not even considering that their direction might be wrong. Here is feedback: Fucking free units that get launched from 20,30, 40, 50 range will now also be able to fly. Ask any player that just got out of Swarm Host game about which part of the last game he didn't enjoy. The answer will be: "THEY ARE FUCKING FREE. HE KILLS STUFF WITHOUT ANY FUCKING RISK OR COST!"The idea to make them fly enforces that principle. The idea to let Swarm Hosts run around at Stalker Speed and evade all harm enforces that principle. You want feedback? Here is feedback from someone who tried the map (not very often because it is hard to find players) and the inoffical LotV mod (in which many conditions are different, but there is still the flying locust SH to try): Get rid of the combination of free units and longrange. You may solve the issue of long games with this patch (which in itself is only an issue for some players), but you are still not creating something that is fun to play or play against. People are not going to combat against free units. It's going to be free damage from one player done to another player. And then the Swarm Hosts will go offline for 60seconds and the other player is going to do free damage to the first player. That is not interesting, that is like putting a boxsack into the ring and ask the athletes to take turns on hitting it, instead of hitting each other. I agree on the feedback point, but let me push back on SH a bit. I find as a concept manageable. They function similarly to a siege tank, if they are set up, you need to avoid that area or lose way too much. Siege tank pushes function similarly to SH: unless the line is broken with overwhelming force, they will kill everything incredibly cost-effectively. I just think the unit doesn't work with Z as well, if you can build tons at once, you can tech-switch to kill too easily, and if they are too costly and weak, losing them one loses you the game every single time. I'm going to disagree with you, there's no analogy between swarmhosts and siege tanks simply because both function differently , yes, you may say that both are siege units(maybe the only common term, loosely) , but, again, both function differently.
Wait, so are you gonna elaborate on why they're different or just simply state your counterargument to his post without giving a reason for disagreeing?
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On February 27 2015 01:33 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 01:27 Yakikorosu wrote:On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
The fact that people could learn to play better against swarm hosts over time isn't the point. Swarm hosts aren't really "OP" (though certainly they're one of the strongest units in the game)--all you have to do is watch Koreans play against Swarm Hosts to see this. It requires a particular style that's very different from the way you play against other styles and most foreigners don't seen to be very good at it. The issue with swarm hosts as presently designed is they actively encourage ridiculously boring nonsense games that have the entertainment value of watching someone play Pong (or a little less). Thankfully I never watch games live anyway, so whenever I see a mass swarm host game starting I just skip to the next game but making people do that is no way to make an e-sport more popular. They need to go and frankly end of Season 1 is too long to wait. I dunno, if Swarm Hosts encourage the Zerg player to be passive and to defend, then it also encourages the Protoss/Mech player to be aggressive and harass/attack, and thus gives exciting games. See Snute vs herO at IEM Toronto.
Like I said, when the player playing against swarm hosts is a strong Korean, swarm hosts are (often) fine. But when you need a much weaker player using swarm hosts against a much better player playing against to make it exciting, that's a bad sign for a unit's place in the game. No offense to Snute but he (like all other foreigners) is not on the level of someone like herO absent swarm hosts.
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On February 27 2015 01:27 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
The fact that people could learn to play better against swarm hosts over time isn't the point. Swarm hosts aren't really "OP" (though certainly they're one of the strongest units in the game)--all you have to do is watch Koreans play against Swarm Hosts to see this. It requires a particular style that's very different from the way you play against other styles and most foreigners don't seen to be very good at it. The issue with swarm hosts as presently designed is they actively encourage ridiculously boring nonsense games that have the entertainment value of watching someone play Pong (or a little less). Thankfully I never watch games live anyway, so whenever I see a mass swarm host game starting I just skip to the next game but making people do that is no way to make an e-sport more popular. They need to go and frankly end of Season 1 is too long to wait.
Well ,that's what i've said by "killing the dynamic of the game", didn't said swarmhost were IMBA or stuff like that, the use of this unit leads to freakish weird long games (btw, don't give koreans as an example , they don't master swarmhosts/mech game play, hence those crazy weird games that made no sense, and I'm going to explain this a little : from what I've observed since SC2 came into scene, korean players always had a very aggressive approach, well , swarmhosts and mech doesn't fit in that picture).
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
This is not a question about balance, this is about design and tournaments. Imagine you have finals planned for 9 PM, but Snute is playing some SH style games in BO5 all 5 games and each game takes 40 minutes(not Blizzard minutes) to end. At 9 PM you are in game 4 and as it looks 1 game is ahead of us... your tournament is officially broken. I took Snute because he plays this style and is a good player. Now imagine that it's not only Snute, but some other Zerg used it in previous games from where Snute's opponent resulted... delay, delay, delay. Also SH as a unit doesn't fit into RTS scheme and rules, but that's my weird view at this thing, that everything in RTS has to have some cost(energy, resources).
SH are bad from tournament view, it can bring to you an hour game where literally nothing is happening because of waves of free units without any moment to attack(because of the delay for locusts) and are a huge problem in lower leagues thanks to the autocast and the inability do to multiple things at once while defending.
Some maps are more viable for this style, yes, but they are not a balance problem.
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On February 27 2015 01:38 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 01:33 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 01:27 Yakikorosu wrote:On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
The fact that people could learn to play better against swarm hosts over time isn't the point. Swarm hosts aren't really "OP" (though certainly they're one of the strongest units in the game)--all you have to do is watch Koreans play against Swarm Hosts to see this. It requires a particular style that's very different from the way you play against other styles and most foreigners don't seen to be very good at it. The issue with swarm hosts as presently designed is they actively encourage ridiculously boring nonsense games that have the entertainment value of watching someone play Pong (or a little less). Thankfully I never watch games live anyway, so whenever I see a mass swarm host game starting I just skip to the next game but making people do that is no way to make an e-sport more popular. They need to go and frankly end of Season 1 is too long to wait. I dunno, if Swarm Hosts encourage the Zerg player to be passive and to defend, then it also encourages the Protoss/Mech player to be aggressive and harass/attack, and thus gives exciting games. See Snute vs herO at IEM Toronto. Like I said, when the player playing against swarm hosts is a strong Korean, swarm hosts are (often) fine. But when you need a much weaker player using swarm hosts against a much better player playing against to make it exciting, that's a bad sign for a unit's place in the game. No offense to Snute but he (like all other foreigners) is not on the level of someone like herO absent swarm hosts.
Allow me to disagree here, as Snute not only did beat other well-known Koreans without Swarm Hosts, but more importantly the very reason we don't see many long SH games in Korea is that Korean Protosses do just fine against Swarm Hosts used by Korean Zergs.
On February 27 2015 01:46 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 22:38 opisska wrote:
I really hate that they are doing this to HoTS. I would be willing to come to terms with losing my SHs in LoTV for the hope that I can still load up HoTS and find some people to play the good game against. But a patch means that the previous version is lost forever and there is no hope of playing it again.
People still haven't really figured out how to play against SHs but they are getting better and better, show creative ways to play against SHs and more and more interesting games, it is about time to kill them completely! It's always the same story: there is something strong and unique, posing a great challenge that we watch unfold and top players slowly inching their way forward to solving it ... and right there Blizzard patches it based on "community feedback", that is, the opinion of mostly loud idiots.
At this point, I wish people realised that every other Blizzard game is complete shit, the company went bankrupt, someone set up hacked SC2 servers and we could just have the game untouched forever like BW.
This is not a question about balance, this is about design and tournaments. Imagine you have finals planned for 9 PM, but Snute is playing some SH style games in BO5 all 5 games and each game takes 40 minutes(not Blizzard minutes) to end. At 9 PM you are in game 4 and as it looks 1 game is ahead of us... your tournament is officially broken. I took Snute because he plays this style and is a good player. Now imagine that it's not only Snute, but some other Zerg used it in previous games from where Snute's opponent resulted... delay, delay, delay. Also SH as a unit doesn't fit into RTS scheme and rules, but that's my weird view at this thing, that everything in RTS has to have some cost(energy, resources). SH are bad from tournament view, it can bring to you an hour game where literally nothing is happening because of waves of free units without any moment to attack(because of the delay for locusts) and are a huge problem in lower leagues thanks to the autocast and the inability do to multiple things at once while defending. Some maps are more viable for this style, yes, but they are not a balance problem.
As much aas I'd like SHs to be reworked in order to be more exciting, your point is ridiculous. StarCraft is not a game with a set time limit, which means that there are possibilities of games being very long just like there are possibilities of games being very short (I'm pretty sure that last year's IEM Katowice grand finals clock under one hour if you exclude the filler parts). Is it an issue for scheduling and broadcasting? Sure, but tournaments and people have to deal with it. Just like with Tennis, some Tennis games can go on for very long yet nobody complains about the games delaying the TV station's schedule.
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Kinda worried about how the Tempest nerf affects PvP. Any patch that encourages Colossi isn't aligning with my ideal.
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EPT
