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Canada13389 Posts
On February 26 2015 05:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:45 Dingodile wrote:
I approve the tempest change vs BL but vs Collossi needs something. maybe +100 shield massive air attack. Can you think of a less elegant change ? Someone said it before in the thread : we should go away from the hardcounters game. They're doing it with LotV for the immortals, they're doing it again for the tempests. That's a great thing. And for Christ's sake, you already have no other choice but colossi compositions in macro PvP. If you try to transition to tempests and the opponent has a brain, you die.
Going away from hardcounters appears to work for LotV because its LotV there are a LOT of changes aside from the units.
I'm not sure it works for HotS. Especially because they are effectively deleting tempests. At least hosts can still do some harass damage. Tempests have again, 9.09 DPS. At +3 air they have a whopping wait for it: 11.82 DPS. Against a unit with 3 armor (from upgrades) you actually do less with full ups than you did when both units were at zero upgrades.
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On February 26 2015 05:49 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:01 MyrionSC2 wrote:
Hope pvp doesn't go back to war of the worlds now that tempest massive damage will be nerfed. sorry not a protoss but cant you still go for tempest if they try to go mass colossus im not sure i get what you're trying to say. because if they go for the war of the worlds type stuff(mass colossus) wont tempest just shit on them, or do colossus count as massive air units? Im pretty sure they dont count as air so i think tempest will still be ok. right?
I'm not a protoss either, but the way I think it works now is that you start the transition to Tempest, and hide it well. If your opponent sees you, he will come for you. If you manage to have 4 tempest outs, you can 1 shot collosi. If you keep them alive against the blinkstalkers for long enough, you will probably win. If you don't, he will walk over you. Like other already said in this thread, that often happens. With the new changes, you would need about 10 tempests to do the same.
This equals pew pew lazerwars.
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Wait what. I'm pretty sure this affects colossi, since the tempests bonus is already vs massive air only, and colossi count as air.
If so then the nerf is extremely retarded, tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP and it added an interesting mechanic in the matchup, aka finding the correct balance between tempests and ground army. Please, don't touch tempests in PvP.
Tempests are already bad vs BCs because of ravens. Meching terrans will only build BCs when they already have a lot of ravens for PDDs. Even if blizzard wants to go through with the PDD nerf, it would still be very strong against tempests just because how ridiculously slow they fire.
So the only matchup where the tempest nerf makes sense is against Zerg. Not a really good trade imo. As someone already wrote, maybe the best thing to do would be removing the massive tag from broodlords. Although I'm not sure how this would affect ZvZ.
Oh and btw: a funny fact is that without tempests +massive air bonus, a pure carrier army would be unbeatable in PvP.
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On February 26 2015 05:54 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:45 Dingodile wrote:
I approve the tempest change vs BL but vs Collossi needs something. maybe +100 shield massive air attack. Can you think of a less elegant change ? Someone said it before in the thread : we should go away from the hardcounters game. They're doing it with LotV for the immortals, they're doing it again for the tempests. That's a great thing. And for Christ's sake, you already have no other choice but colossi compositions in macro PvP. If you try to transition to tempests and the opponent has a brain, you die. Going away from hardcounters appears to work for LotV because its LotV there are a LOT of changes aside from the units. I'm not sure it works for HotS. Especially because they are effectively deleting tempests. At least hosts can still do some harass damage. Tempests have again, 9.09 DPS. At +3 air they have a whopping wait for it: 11.82 DPS. Against a unit with 3 armor (from upgrades) you actually do less with full ups than you did when both units were at zero upgrades.
They're not deleting tempests. Tempests will still be useful in at least one scenario : to battle against ghost viking without relying too much on storms. Most PvTs don't reach that stage, but you will still be able to add tempests in that stage of the game to force bad engages from the T, which you can't do otherwise since vikings outrange colossi. Then again I'm probably biased because I fucking HATE Tempests and I think removing them would be smart.
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On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote:
tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP
But did they ? Every pro chooses colo tech if the game ever goes past 10:00. True this could mean a resurgence of double colo builds, but if you committed to colo yourself and saw double colo from your opponent the wisest decision was already to go double colo yourself and try to win the colo war. Going tempests is a gamble, if you can survive the transition you're good otherwise you're dead. Or am I wrong ? I really think that won't effectively change much as far as PvP goes.
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On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote:
Wait what. I'm pretty sure this affects colossi, since the tempests bonus is already vs massive air only, and colossi count as air.
If so then the nerf is extremely retarded, tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP and it added an interesting mechanic in the matchup, aka finding the correct balance between tempests and ground army. Please, don't touch tempests in PvP.
Tempests are already bad vs BCs because of ravens. Meching terrans will only build BCs when they already have a lot of ravens for PDDs. Even if blizzard wants to go through with the PDD nerf, it would still be very strong against tempests just because how ridiculously slow they fire.
So the only matchup where the tempest nerf makes sense is against Zerg. Not a really good trade imo. As someone already wrote, maybe the best thing to do would be removing the massive tag from broodlords. Although I'm not sure how this would affect ZvZ.
Oh and btw: a funny fact is that without tempests +massive air bonus, a pure carrier army would be unbeatable in PvP.
Then BL are pretty useless in ZvZ as few months ago und mass SH vs mass SH most used ZvZ play again. Thors, Archons etc are al ot weaker vs BL.
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On February 26 2015 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:49 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2015 05:01 MyrionSC2 wrote:
Hope pvp doesn't go back to war of the worlds now that tempest massive damage will be nerfed. sorry not a protoss but cant you still go for tempest if they try to go mass colossus im not sure i get what you're trying to say. because if they go for the war of the worlds type stuff(mass colossus) wont tempest just shit on them, or do colossus count as massive air units? Im pretty sure they dont count as air so i think tempest will still be ok. right? Even in the current state of the game, if you try to go for tempest and the opponent identifies it, he can attack into you with his colossi + chargelot + archons and reinforce with stalkers if you managed to get any air going. So no, you can't if your opponent is sending hallucinations all the time like he should. No one goes really mass colossi by the way (10+), it's usually 6-8 into chargelot archon immortal.
i see thank you. Now what i hope happens is that protoss start using immortal warp prism like terrans use medivacs hellbat drops on armys, YES i know toss don't have speed boost but toss do have speed upgrades and hallucinations to fake a couple prisms and drop on the army. Now obvious I'm not a toss and have no idea if this will work but i think it would be soooooo sick to see and would be better then seeing mass colossus armies. .
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Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt.
it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team.
he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable.
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On February 26 2015 06:09 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:49 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2015 05:01 MyrionSC2 wrote:
Hope pvp doesn't go back to war of the worlds now that tempest massive damage will be nerfed. sorry not a protoss but cant you still go for tempest if they try to go mass colossus im not sure i get what you're trying to say. because if they go for the war of the worlds type stuff(mass colossus) wont tempest just shit on them, or do colossus count as massive air units? Im pretty sure they dont count as air so i think tempest will still be ok. right? Even in the current state of the game, if you try to go for tempest and the opponent identifies it, he can attack into you with his colossi + chargelot + archons and reinforce with stalkers if you managed to get any air going. So no, you can't if your opponent is sending hallucinations all the time like he should. No one goes really mass colossi by the way (10+), it's usually 6-8 into chargelot archon immortal. i see thank you. Now what i hope happens is that protoss start using immortal warp prism like terrans use medivacs hellbat drops on armys, YES i know toss don't have speed boost but toss do have speed upgrades and hallucinations to fake a couple prisms and drop on the army. Now obvious I'm not a toss and have no idea if this will work but i think it would be soooooo sick to see and would be better then seeing mass colossus armies. .
Good P player are already using that strat, but in conjonction with their own colossi. State does that all the time for instance. It's really good because it abused the lack of anti-air in a standard lategame PvP composition, you can warp zealots on top of the colossi to mess with their AI, it's really strong. But if you don't have colossi of your own, well it'll be cute, but you'll get slaughtered.
On February 26 2015 06:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +
Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt. it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team. he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable.
Which, seeing how exciting and action packed SC2 mech has been so far, is something I'm pretty OK with.
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The Tempest change is so bad :/. People whining about hardcounters have no idea what they're talking about. Brood Lords don't need to be effective during every stage of every late-game.
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On February 26 2015 06:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote:
tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP But did they ? Every pro chooses colo tech if the game ever goes past 10:00. True this could mean a resurgence of double colo builds, but if you committed to colo yourself and saw double colo from your opponent the wisest decision was already to go double colo yourself and try to win the colo war.
I agree up to this point.
Going tempests is a gamble, if you can survive the transition you're good otherwise you're dead. Or am I wrong ? I really think that won't effectively change much as far as PvP goes.
Well it's not really a gamble... it's like saying that adding hydras and infestors to a roach army in ZvZ is a gamble. It depends on each game. Surely you don't wanna switch into tempests if your opponent is going to attack you very soon. However the more the game goes on, the more likely the players will add tempests to their armies.
Tempests are all that make lategame PvP interesting. Before, there was a pretty much defined end-game composition, which was around ~9 colossi, and the rest immortals/archons. Now, there isn't really a composition that's better than all the others. You want at least 5 tempests to oneshot colossi, but if your opponent has tempests too, then you're gonna need more tempests, but you can't build too many or you can get countered by blink stalkers and archons, and so on. So you have a lategame where thinking about which is the best composition in each moment actually comes into play, and it adds a lot of depth into the matchup.
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On February 26 2015 06:13 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote:
tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP But did they ? Every pro chooses colo tech if the game ever goes past 10:00. True this could mean a resurgence of double colo builds, but if you committed to colo yourself and saw double colo from your opponent the wisest decision was already to go double colo yourself and try to win the colo war. I agree up to this point. Show nested quote +Going tempests is a gamble, if you can survive the transition you're good otherwise you're dead. Or am I wrong ? I really think that won't effectively change much as far as PvP goes. Well it's not really a gamble... it's like saying that adding hydras and infestors to a roach army in ZvZ is a gamble. It depends on each game. Surely you don't wanna switch into tempests if your opponent is going to attack you very soon. However the more the game goes on, the more likely the players will add tempests to their armies. Tempests are all that make lategame PvP interesting. Before, there was a pretty much defined end-game composition, which was around ~9 colossi, and the rest immortals/archons. Now, there isn't really a composition that's better than all the others. You want at least 5 tempests to oneshot colossi, but if your opponent has tempests too, then you're gonna need more tempests, but you can't build too many or you can get countered by blink stalkers and archons, and so on. So you have a lategame where thinking about which is the best composition in each moment actually comes into play, and it adds a lot of depth into the matchup.
I agree with your points. But as you said, mass carrier is now unbeatable on paper. So, why not add carriers instead of colossi now that tempests don't make them useless ? Ofc the transition is slower, but if you're in those very lategame scenarios you're sitting behind cannons and maybe a mothership, I'm pretty sure that could be something.
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Eh, they could just scrap the balance patch at this point and release the LotV beta. It's looking less and less likely that they'll be able to introduce some of the LotV changes into HotS and not break the game.
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On February 26 2015 04:55 Tenks wrote:
So whats the point of Tempest now? Will this make BC actually viable in TvP?
BCs weren't bothered by Tempest to much. But those HTs :< and no way to get there. Glad they finally allow you to attack in between Swarmhost waves.
And they still work just as well as before, but they don't remove units from the matchup anymore. Carriers still better if you have upgrades.
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On February 26 2015 06:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:09 Charoisaur wrote:
Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt. it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team. he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable. Which, seeing how exciting and action packed SC2 mech has been so far, is something I'm pretty OK with.
in tvt it is extremely exciting. taeja vs innovation, flash vs byoong, mma vs gumiho just to give a few examples.
the problem in tvz is that SHs force you to turtle extremely hard until you get that mass raven cloud and then slowly siege across the map. that's because it's boring, not because of mech but because of SHs (and because of ravens but terran wouldn't need them without SHs.)
with nerfs to shs and ravens mech could be similarly entertaining than in tvt, no need to kill that style.
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On February 26 2015 06:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +
Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt. it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team. he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable.
I'm OK with that. Right now, except for a few players, everyone that plays mech plays it turtle style forcing horribly long swarm hosts games. If a mech army is more beatable, maybe it will force terran to go for a more dynamic style and produce more entertaining games, A good direction could be making the army less invencible while making early game more viable.
Also, with locusts being able to fly and land on siege tanks I don't think changing the blinding cloud range will make any difference.
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On February 26 2015 06:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +
Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt. it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team. he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable.
meh not to worried about it as long as you scout the vipers and have enough vikings with turrets support to snipe them and a good spread on tanks with a senors tower to scout the attack coming (still might be very hard to hold but) i think its manageable.
but i do kinda agree they are trying there hardest to make mech harder/less viable to appease the louder crowd of ppl that want only bio play. but just so ppl know not everyone that plays mech plays like avilo turtling till mass ravens all game. some of us do attack and play aggro mech(medivacs are good with mech too ppl try 4 tank drops they shit on building) but when ppl see mech they only think avilo so GL HF.
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On February 26 2015 06:15 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:13 KingAlphard wrote:On February 26 2015 06:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:59 KingAlphard wrote:
tempests were intended to fix mass colossi in PvP But did they ? Every pro chooses colo tech if the game ever goes past 10:00. True this could mean a resurgence of double colo builds, but if you committed to colo yourself and saw double colo from your opponent the wisest decision was already to go double colo yourself and try to win the colo war. I agree up to this point. Going tempests is a gamble, if you can survive the transition you're good otherwise you're dead. Or am I wrong ? I really think that won't effectively change much as far as PvP goes. Well it's not really a gamble... it's like saying that adding hydras and infestors to a roach army in ZvZ is a gamble. It depends on each game. Surely you don't wanna switch into tempests if your opponent is going to attack you very soon. However the more the game goes on, the more likely the players will add tempests to their armies. Tempests are all that make lategame PvP interesting. Before, there was a pretty much defined end-game composition, which was around ~9 colossi, and the rest immortals/archons. Now, there isn't really a composition that's better than all the others. You want at least 5 tempests to oneshot colossi, but if your opponent has tempests too, then you're gonna need more tempests, but you can't build too many or you can get countered by blink stalkers and archons, and so on. So you have a lategame where thinking about which is the best composition in each moment actually comes into play, and it adds a lot of depth into the matchup. I agree with your points. But as you said, mass carrier is now unbeatable on paper. So, why not add carriers instead of colossi now that tempests don't make them useless ? Ofc the transition is slower, but if you're in those very lategame scenarios you're sitting behind cannons and maybe a mothership, I'm pretty sure that could be something.
This might be true. Although this would mean that both players would start to slowly turn their army into a pure carrier army, and then you would have a pathetic mass carriers vs. mass carriers lategame. That's not fun either. Tempests are interesting because you can't mass them for the win in PvP, you need to find the proper balance.
Maybe the only crazy thing that could happen would be if people started to go straight into skytoss to get ahead on upgrades, but it's not really possible. Blink stalkers are too good against low numbers of air units.
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United States7483 Posts
Whelp, PvP is going to suck now, no tempest response to colossi anymore. It's not going to effect too much, I suppose, but it is going to make every end game battle mass colossus vs. mass colossus again. There was a while there where we saw templar into tempest responses to robo centric builds, those were really cool, but that style is now completely dead with this.
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On February 26 2015 06:19 MadLoki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:09 Charoisaur wrote:
Viper Blinding Cloud range increased from 10 to 11
This is to help vs. Mech especially since the range difference between Vipers and Vikings will be slightly greater.
Thank you.
and there goes any hope of playing mech outside of tvt. it will probably never be a viable strategy as long as DK is the leader of the balance team. he's really doing everything to keep it from being viable. I'm OK with that. Right now, except for a few players, everyone that plays mech plays it turtle style forcing horribly long swarm hosts games. If a mech army is more beatable, maybe it will force terran to go for a more dynamic style and produce more entertaining games, A good direction could be making the army less invencible while making early game more viable. Also, with locusts being able to fly and land on siege tanks I don't think changing the blinding cloud range will make any difference.
no exactly this is what won't happen.
have you ever played vs roach hydra viper?
on open field it's nearly impossible to not get blinding clouded because the vipers can come from every direction and it's also harder to spread your tanks when you are aggressive with them.
with the new change moving out on the map will just be suicide.
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EPT
