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Omg, SH has become super expensive units that for long durations is just dead weight. I'm pretty sure SH the way the test map before this one had changed them made them pretty much useless. Too expensive to just use for harass (unless late game) and leaving waaaay too big of an opening if you make too many to try and actually "fight" with them.
Seriously the duration you have on you to counter a SH player is more than enough, with WG or medivacs you can even exploit the window that SH is just dead weight without even having to wait for the locusts to die off. If your bio gets attacked by locusts just loead you medivacs and boost into Zs base, the locusts will be dead by the time they run back and by the time SH can make more locusts the main is totally annihilated. If you want to argue "erm what if they attack me with locusts while I'm turtling in my base, don't turtle in your base against the new SH. There's no point, the weakness of the SH is counterattack if you are active on the map you have a huge advantage.
The 5 seconds reduce in how long the locusts last doesn't mainly effect the way the time gap can be exploited against SH in my opinion it will reduce the effectiveness of locusts. I think this is an outright stupid idea, I mean the time gap that a player has to counter SH is huge as it is, it wil keep being huge. The difference is that locusts will make even less damage.
It seems the design team is thinking that P and T and is going to turtle against SH like the use to do, lol, WHY would they do that it would be retarted. Imagine T or P takes map control, which they can easily do seeing as there is a huge time gap between the locusts waves. If they scout locusts coming they can just retreat with their army and the locusts won't even scratch the enemy, then when the locusts die the P or T army can you just go and outright kill the Z player. Are blizzard thinking the Z player is supposed to yolo the SH into the enemy army and release the locusts hoping they can get some damage off? Skillful players will keep map control against SH and they won't get close enough to even scratch a base, I don't think SH would be used at all besides the late game with the previous changes that was planed. Nerfing them even harder is just silly.
Blizzard even say it themselves, that they are nerfing them so hard that they can't even fulfill their role anymore. But hey they are great harass units if you have 1000min 1000 gasto throw away at units that can't be used in an actual fight.... Which is like never
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On February 26 2015 05:26 Shuffleblade wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Omg, SH has become super expensive units that for long durations is just dead weight. I'm pretty sure SH the way the test map before this one had changed them made them pretty much useless. Too expensive to just use for harass (unless late game) and leaving waaaay too big of an opening if you make too many to try and actually "fight" with them.
Seriously the duration you have on you to counter a SH player is more than enough, with WG or medivacs you can even exploit the window that SH is just dead weight without even having to wait for the locusts to die off. If your bio gets attacked by locusts just loead you medivacs and boost into Zs base, the locusts will be dead by the time they run back and by the time SH can make more locusts the main is totally annihilated. If you want to argue "erm what if they attack me with locusts while I'm turtling in my base, don't turtle in your base against the new SH. There's no point, the weakness of the SH is counterattack if you are active on the map you have a huge advantage.
The 5 seconds reduce in how long the locusts last doesn't mainly effect the way the time gap can be exploited against SH in my opinion it will reduce the effectiveness of locusts. I think this is an outright stupid idea, I mean the time gap that a player has to counter SH is huge as it is, it wil keep being huge. The difference is that locusts will make even less damage.
It seems the design team is thinking that P and T and is going to turtle against SH like the use to do, lol, WHY would they do that it would be retarted. Imagine T or P takes map control, which they can easily do seeing as there is a huge time gap between the locusts waves. If they scout locusts coming they can just retreat with their army and the locusts won't even scratch the enemy, then when the locusts die the P or T army can you just go and outright kill the Z player. Are blizzard thinking the Z player is supposed to yolo the SH into the enemy army and release the locusts hoping they can get some damage off? Skillful players will keep map control against SH and they won't get close enough to even scratch a base, I don't think SH would be used at all besides the late game with the previous changes that was planed. Nerfing them even harder is just silly.
Blizzard even say it themselves, that they are nerfing them so hard that they can't even fulfill their role anymore. But hey they are great harass units if you have 1000min 1000 gasto throw away at units that can't be used in an actual fight.... Which is like never
I'm OK with SH and Tempests being nerfed into oblivion. Those units should never have existed in the first place, what is going on is the closest Blizzard could come with their stupid pride to being reasonable and throwing those shames of units away.
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On February 26 2015 04:41 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 04:33 SNSeigifried wrote:
Tempest no longer has +massive damage vs. air
Brood Lords can still be countered by the long range of Tempests, but they won’t be the hard counter they are now, meaning Brood Lords can serve to fill the missing gap created by the redesign of the Swarm Host.
Should just remove Massive tag from Broodlords or it slightly affects PvP
Colossus vs colossus incoming
Or void ray vs void ray maybe?
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On February 26 2015 05:00 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Tempest Nerf = BL/I time?
BL/infestor alone doesn't work. You'll need corruptors, vipers (!) and queens against mass air. But overall, BL based compositions might be more playable than before.
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Canada28396 Posts
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see"
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United Kingdom20286 Posts
On February 26 2015 05:25 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:19 mongoose22 wrote:On February 26 2015 05:09 hborrgg wrote:On February 26 2015 04:57 Jenia6109 wrote:
Make the polls please!
Also, straight nerf to Tempest? Carriers and Battlecruisers are viable now? I hope PvP late game won't be Colossus vs Colossus again... Does colossus count as air or ground for ranged attacks? It can be hit as a ground unit, so Tempests are still a hard counter. Oh, wait, they removed the Tempest +Massive damage against ground a while back, didn't they? Then yeah, the Tempest doesn't do extra damage against the Colossus anymore.
The Tempest uses its air attack on the Colossus and still does bonus damage AFAIK
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I really like how our most expensive units are either our worst units or the least viable. Units that used to have a purpose that now provide nothing: mothership, tempest. Unit that has never been viable: carrier. The other most expensive unit for Toss: colossus. Which other unit is expecting nerfs to it? Good guess.
We don't even get a price reduction or at least a cool strobe light added to the mothership. If avilo himself were in charge of design, Toss would have more useful units or at least have the price come down once units get stripped of all redeeming qualities.
I can't wait to see this game go from rallied units to "sick transfuses" as invincible broodlords kill everything. Every game is going to become "attack before they can get them," just like WoL.
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On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see"
I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 26 2015 05:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:25 mongoose22 wrote:On February 26 2015 05:19 mongoose22 wrote:On February 26 2015 05:09 hborrgg wrote:On February 26 2015 04:57 Jenia6109 wrote:
Make the polls please!
Also, straight nerf to Tempest? Carriers and Battlecruisers are viable now? I hope PvP late game won't be Colossus vs Colossus again... Does colossus count as air or ground for ranged attacks? It can be hit as a ground unit, so Tempests are still a hard counter. Oh, wait, they removed the Tempest +Massive damage against ground a while back, didn't they? Then yeah, the Tempest doesn't do extra damage against the Colossus anymore. The Tempest uses its air attack on the Colossus and still does bonus damage AFAIK
Yup.
I do think the Tempest needs a little love. Without the bonus to damage, and without Static Defense wall with swarmhosts im not sure when I will use them now.
They have pitiful DPS, so unless im gonna be pulling a Rotti Build PvT I can't see their use anymore. I think a small concession should be made so that the fleet beacon is more useful than just unlocking Air Upgrades and the Anion Pulse Crystals.
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On February 26 2015 05:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see" I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes.
They'll make mass SH work anyway, you'll see.
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On February 26 2015 05:40 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:32 Cyro wrote:On February 26 2015 05:25 mongoose22 wrote:On February 26 2015 05:19 mongoose22 wrote:On February 26 2015 05:09 hborrgg wrote:On February 26 2015 04:57 Jenia6109 wrote:
Make the polls please!
Also, straight nerf to Tempest? Carriers and Battlecruisers are viable now? I hope PvP late game won't be Colossus vs Colossus again... Does colossus count as air or ground for ranged attacks? It can be hit as a ground unit, so Tempests are still a hard counter. Oh, wait, they removed the Tempest +Massive damage against ground a while back, didn't they? Then yeah, the Tempest doesn't do extra damage against the Colossus anymore. The Tempest uses its air attack on the Colossus and still does bonus damage AFAIK Yup. I do think the Tempest needs a little love. Without the bonus to damage, and without Static Defense wall with swarmhosts im not sure when I will use them now. They have pitiful DPS, so unless im gonna be pulling a Rotti Build PvT I can't see their use anymore. I think a small concession should be made so that the fleet beacon is more useful than just unlocking Air Upgrades and the Anion Pulse Crystals.
I won't give any love to a siege air unit that just stole the role a legit carrier should have fulfilled and only limits the opponent's options instead of giving you some. It will take a massive redesign for the tempest to be something interesting.
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On February 26 2015 05:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see" I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes. They'll make mass SH work anyway, you'll see.
If that's in that way, I'm pretty OK with it, that was beautiful. And no one forced Harstem to go that far into Snute's trap.
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I approve the tempest change vs BL but vs Collossi needs something. maybe +100 shield massive air attack.
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On February 26 2015 05:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:41 Elentos wrote:On February 26 2015 05:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see" I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes. They'll make mass SH work anyway, you'll see. If that's in that way, I'm pretty OK with it, that was beautiful. And no one forced Harstem to go that far into Snute's trap.
I mean, he'll never win if he does nothing, so that's really not exciting.
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On February 26 2015 05:45 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:41 Elentos wrote:On February 26 2015 05:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see" I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes. They'll make mass SH work anyway, you'll see. If that's in that way, I'm pretty OK with it, that was beautiful. And no one forced Harstem to go that far into Snute's trap. I mean, he'll never win if he does nothing, so that's really not exciting.
Even the casters saw it coming. Attacking that position was not a great idea, he could have attacked into the fourth or cleared more creep before. He was just too much of an easy prey here. And if they still find a way to make mass SH work, put the duration time to 20 sec. That should just not be a thing.
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On February 26 2015 05:45 Dingodile wrote:
I approve the tempest change vs BL but vs Collossi needs something. maybe +100 shield massive air attack.
Can you think of a less elegant change ? Someone said it before in the thread : we should go away from the hardcounters game. They're doing it with LotV for the immortals, they're doing it again for the tempests. That's a great thing. And for Christ's sake, you already have no other choice but colossi compositions in macro PvP. If you try to transition to tempests and the opponent has a brain, you die.
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On February 26 2015 05:01 MyrionSC2 wrote:
Hope pvp doesn't go back to war of the worlds now that tempest massive damage will be nerfed.
sorry not a protoss but cant you still go for tempest if they try to go mass colossus im not sure i get what you're trying to say. because if they go for the war of the worlds type stuff(mass colossus) wont tempest just shit on them, or do colossus count as massive air units? Im pretty sure they dont count as air so i think tempest will still be ok. right?
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On February 26 2015 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:45 Elentos wrote:On February 26 2015 05:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:41 Elentos wrote:On February 26 2015 05:36 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 26 2015 05:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
These changes are so big that it's almost impossible to tell if they'll be good or not. I'm slightly leaning towards not good but it's very much a case of "we'll have to see" I don't think we can even doubt the fact that passive mass SH play won't be a thing any more is great for the game. What's hard to say is whether it'll be detrimental for balance in big ways or not, but honestly do we care ? I'd rather have a game where Z is maybe slightly weaker and no game ever goes to the 4h mark and repels any potential viewer than what we currently have. And I'm pretty sure Z will be doing just fine with those changes. They'll make mass SH work anyway, you'll see. If that's in that way, I'm pretty OK with it, that was beautiful. And no one forced Harstem to go that far into Snute's trap. I mean, he'll never win if he does nothing, so that's really not exciting. Even the casters saw it coming. Attacking that position was not a great idea, he could have attacked into the fourth or cleared more creep before. He was just too much of an easy prey here. And if they still find a way to make mass SH work, put the duration time to 20 sec. That should just not be a thing.
Obviously, Harstem took the shittiest engagement possible with no Recall available. But with the damage these Locusts now do in the time they are there they'll still be aggrevating to deal with.
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The whine, jezus. Go to reddit -_-
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On February 26 2015 05:49 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 05:01 MyrionSC2 wrote:
Hope pvp doesn't go back to war of the worlds now that tempest massive damage will be nerfed. sorry not a protoss but cant you still go for tempest if they try to go mass colossus im not sure i get what you're trying to say. because if they go for the war of the worlds type stuff(mass colossus) wont tempest just shit on them, or do colossus count as massive air units? Im pretty sure they dont count as air so i think tempest will still be ok. right?
Even in the current state of the game, if you try to go for tempest and the opponent identifies it, he can attack into you with his colossi + chargelot + archons and reinforce with stalkers if you managed to get any air going. So no, you can't if your opponent is sending hallucinations all the time like he should. No one goes really mass colossi by the way (10+), it's usually 6-8 into chargelot archon immortal.
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EPT
