EPTThe ladder seems broken, more now than even before.GM is a special case as only 200 players can get in, but all the way down to bronze there are issues. It s harder and harder to find a balanced game nowadays, it feels either you crush your opponent super easily or you get crushed yourself. A lot of people I know on every league told me the same...
SC2 Ladder needs to be reworked. - Page 5
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WGT-Baal
France3575 Posts
The ladder seems broken, more now than even before.GM is a special case as only 200 players can get in, but all the way down to bronze there are issues. It s harder and harder to find a balanced game nowadays, it feels either you crush your opponent super easily or you get crushed yourself. A lot of people I know on every league told me the same... | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On January 18 2015 02:38 Big J wrote: b) it is not realistically implementable. As I claim above, how does the AI differentiate between 1 baneling and 50 and when it has to split? Well, you can program that. Which is a decision making process that you give in the hands of the AI. Does it still just amove against 10banelings? Even if you only have 10marines? You see, you'd have to basically program it out very well... which means you just optimize a program that plays the whole game for you with your decisions. Eventually, the program will be perfect. That's it, game solved. Why make it complicated? Simply ALWAYS split by moving away from every melee unit and kite. BTW it already exist... here's an example. | ||
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growlizing
Norway122 Posts
On January 17 2015 16:14 SC2Toastie wrote: That is not the case, which is what ggzerg is writing about. The system matches you up with the right people (most of the time) but your rank (dia/m/gm) is not an accurate display of your current skill level in the higher leagues. The ladder system is working, and I think it's the best/most fair ranking system ever for a game. The leagues are nearly completely useless and meaningless, the only thing that matters is the opponents you face. I have never been far out of 50/50 win/loss for the 4 years I've been playing, you mostly only see that towards the top. Which is incredibly for a game with so many factors and incorporating 3 distinctly different races. But completely fair does not always equal most fun. Losing 50% of my games over 4 years can be rough in it self and is not for most people... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2015 23:23 varsovie wrote: Why make it complicated? Simply ALWAYS split by moving away from every melee unit and kite. BTW it already exist... here's an example. Yeah, that would work so well in all scenarios, would it? Ever heard of that thing called Broodlord? Good luck when your marines are kiting broodlings and never getting in range of the broodlord because they keep bouncing forward until they get shot and then kite backwards and repeat. Or you have a drop behind a mineral line and zerglings approach? Better have them marines run and split, so the zerglings gain more surface area, lol. The only time marines want to split is against splash. And the only time marines want to kite is when the main bulk of opponents is in melee. If it is a mixture of ranged and melee (like zealots and colossi) bio often doesn't want to kite backwards but forwards and targetfire the ranged units behind the melee buffer. You know, just kill that 350HP Colossus first and kite afterwards instead of killing the 10zealots with 1500HP while the Colossus has a field day with its 9range. You know, concious decisions and judgment of situation. Strategy, Tactics, Experience. Winning by using your head. The automaton simulates amoved banelings vs marines that are optimized vs amoved banelings. Now make a big zergling army. The marines will split and allow extreme surface area. The zerglings now win a battle that they'd lose brutally if the marines just stood there in a ball and stimmed. Or maybe they still don't win, but they are much more efficient now because the marines split, while they should rather form a perfect ball. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1927 Posts
On January 18 2015 08:25 GGzerG wrote: I think a lot of you are missing the point I was trying to make and I apologize for making this sound like this is all about me not being able to get into GM, I don't think I am GM level yet but I also think all the ex GM level players I beat were not GM level either.... The point I was trying to make is that the way the ladder system works, it is extremely hard to even attempt to get to promoted to GM with how unforgiving the ladder system treats only certain players, it is not delegating the same point system to every single player it seems. There is only 1 week to move up in rank to get promoted to GM, and it seems nearly impossible when you go on a great winning streak and go for example... Win +4 , Win +4 , Win +6 , Win +8, and then you face a barcode hacker 3 times in a row and lose 3 games.... -21 , -18 , -12... at this point I start to tilt and am extremely angry after watching the replays and realizing this person never scouted, hard countered everything perfectly and obviously hacked. Begins the slump. Lose a few more games because you are now not thinking correctly... -12, -16... Manage to pick yourself up, win two more games...+8, +4... Play a few more games and you lose two... -12, -18 At this point, you were promoted to Masters, but the system is making it extremely difficult to ever get promoted to Grand Masters, but I don't think that the system makes it so difficult for every single player. There are so many bad players in GM on NA server, it is not a good 'indicator of skill '. The ladder system was not even working properly last season so I don't know why anyone would defend it lol, there was a defecit in the amount of players and that is why Masters league was only top 1% of players , that's why last season we had so many Diamonds in Masters, and so many Masters in Diamond, and so many of the leagues that were not properly balanced. The ultimate point I was trying to make is that the point distribution and ladder system seems flawed, whether or not I am good enough to get into GM is not really the point I was trying to make, even though I do feel good enough. Sorry, you're just wrong about this and I pointed it out in my post. Everyone at EVERY level plays people who are both very below and very above their level. That is the point of the system, if you're good you will win more to the higher level players and get promoted faster. Or, if you were misplaced or are not playing so well you will be moved down. The % of smurfs who impact this number is negligible - tho I may agree that at top 200/GM there is a reasonable # of hackers. You cannot blame "not playing 100% every game" as a 'real' excuse for why you lose to those lower ranked players and then lose -20 3 times. If you really feel like you're tilting then don't play, it's really that simple. Tilting is, in essence, your own problem so you should deal with that rather than blame the ladder for it making you angry(?). The reason there are so many horrendous players in GM in NA is because they either hack or just do builds where you die if you get a bad scout pattern on a certain map and they do a certain build. This happens a lot and is why certain zerg players who are even all the way up at top 20 GM get there. They do things like ling all in on 3/4 player maps every game. Who cares though, ladder doesn't win them anything and if you're good enough you should be beating any player who does builds like this at least a margin of the time you play them. If you do so your MMR will balance out and, again, it then becomes negligible. You, and others say, that Masters is only the top 1% or 2% or GM is the top% but regardless of the %s if you're good enough to be in that league you WILL be promoted, it is literally that simple. It does not matter about the # of players who are currently in there. So, in short, you can 'feel' however you want but unless you're beating the people who you'd lose -20 to much more often than not then you won't be getting promoted there any time soon. That's generally how any ranking system works... | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On January 19 2015 00:11 Big J wrote: Yeah, that would work so well in all scenarios, would it? Ever heard of that thing called Broodlord? Good luck when your marines are kiting broodlings and never getting in range of the broodlord because they keep bouncing forward until they get shot and then kite backwards and repeat. Or you have a drop behind a mineral line and zerglings approach? Better have them marines run and split, so the zerglings gain more surface area, lol. The only time marines want to split is against splash. And the only time marines want to kite is when the main bulk of opponents is in melee. If it is a mixture of ranged and melee (like zealots and colossi) bio often doesn't want to kite backwards but forwards and targetfire the ranged units behind the melee buffer. You know, just kill that 350HP Colossus first and kite afterwards instead of killing the 10zealots with 1500HP while the Colossus has a field day with its 9range. You know, concious decisions and judgment of situation. Strategy, Tactics, Experience. Winning by using your head. The automaton simulates amoved banelings vs marines that are optimized vs amoved banelings. Now make a big zergling army. The marines will split and allow extreme surface area. The zerglings now win a battle that they'd lose brutally if the marines just stood there in a ball and stimmed. Or maybe they still don't win, but they are much more efficient now because the marines split, while they should rather form a perfect ball. I guess the context wasn't clear. I meant "AI" as a mean to cheat, not as an AI able to play a whole game. Actually if all you want is ez marine split a simple potential field works. See lings, hit a key and let the rines auto-kite. :D As for a total AI able to "play the game" it has already been done. Maybe not able to win GSL (yet) but certainly able to cope with gold leagers. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 19 2015 08:18 varsovie wrote: I guess the context wasn't clear. I meant "AI" as a mean to cheat, not as an AI able to play a whole game. Actually if all you want is ez marine split a simple potential field works. See lings, hit a key and let the rines auto-kite. :D As for a total AI able to "play the game" it has already been done. Maybe not able to win GSL (yet) but certainly able to cope with gold leagers. Ok, that makes sense. What I responded to originally was a comment that said that the game should just automatically kite/split for you. That there are ways to automate such stuff is clear, however, it isn't just "mechanical ape"-stuff that shouldn't be in the game anyways, because those actions are meaningful in the sense that they imply decisions in the first place. It's not just stuff that is like, say, you need to give an attack command 5times instead of once to make a unit attack. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10890 Posts
On January 19 2015 06:22 -Kyo- wrote: Sorry, you're just wrong about this and I pointed it out in my post. Everyone at EVERY level plays people who are both very below and very above their level. That is the point of the system, if you're good you will win more to the higher level players and get promoted faster. Or, if you were misplaced or are not playing so well you will be moved down. The % of smurfs who impact this number is negligible - tho I may agree that at top 200/GM there is a reasonable # of hackers. You cannot blame "not playing 100% every game" as a 'real' excuse for why you lose to those lower ranked players and then lose -20 3 times. If you really feel like you're tilting then don't play, it's really that simple. Tilting is, in essence, your own problem so you should deal with that rather than blame the ladder for it making you angry(?). The reason there are so many horrendous players in GM in NA is because they either hack or just do builds where you die if you get a bad scout pattern on a certain map and they do a certain build. This happens a lot and is why certain zerg players who are even all the way up at top 20 GM get there. They do things like ling all in on 3/4 player maps every game. Who cares though, ladder doesn't win them anything and if you're good enough you should be beating any player who does builds like this at least a margin of the time you play them. If you do so your MMR will balance out and, again, it then becomes negligible. You, and others say, that Masters is only the top 1% or 2% or GM is the top% but regardless of the %s if you're good enough to be in that league you WILL be promoted, it is literally that simple. It does not matter about the # of players who are currently in there. So, in short, you can 'feel' however you want but unless you're beating the people who you'd lose -20 to much more often than not then you won't be getting promoted there any time soon. That's generally how any ranking system works... And the only reason you support this system is because you yourself are GM and so prideful. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1927 Posts
On January 20 2015 13:42 GGzerG wrote: And the only reason you support this system is because you yourself are GM and so prideful. Dude what? My whole point in this thread is that regardless of your league the system operates in the same way for all players regardless of league. Have you even been reading my posts? lmao tl;dr If you play well more often than you play worse you will gain leagues and eventually reach GM. The outside/limiting factors like hackers are moot in the totality of how long the game has been released. | ||
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TOAA
United States38 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM. I really hate when people say this. Do your work. Then when you get home create a decent and proper thread on TL. Don't shed responsibilities at work to create a half-assed and rushed TL thread, it short changes your employer and TL. But yeah, hackers suck. I recommend playing in tournaments (especially local offline tourneys if they are around) and using (and looking at the ladder) as just a practice system. Makes the game a lot more fun. And then when do beat up GM's, it actually means something because your name moves on, and they do not. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 20 2015 14:04 BronzeKnee wrote: I really hate when people say this. Do your work. Then when you get home create a decent and proper thread on TL. Don't shed responsibilities at work to create a half-assed and rushed TL thread, it short changes your employer and TL. Agree very much. Specially since those promised replays very rarely actually turn up after work... :/ | ||
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TelecoM
United States10890 Posts
On January 20 2015 14:04 BronzeKnee wrote: I really hate when people say this. Do your work. Then when you get home create a decent and proper thread on TL. Don't shed responsibilities at work to create a half-assed and rushed TL thread, it short changes your employer and TL. But yeah, hackers suck. I recommend playing in tournaments (especially local offline tourneys if they are around) and using (and looking at the ladder) as just a practice system. Makes the game a lot more fun. And then when do beat up GM's, it actually means something because your name moves on, and they do not. Yea and if you checked the actual thread on battle.net you would have seen I posted the replays. This was a reference to that thread only, and you would have known that if you had read the entire post. EDIT : Also I have been posting them in the GM / Master hacking thread, I think it is obvious by now theres a hacker infestation and posting more replays in this thread rather in the ones already made would be obsolete. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On January 20 2015 15:09 GGzerG wrote: Yea and if you checked the actual thread on battle.net you would have seen I posted the replays. This was a reference to that thread only, and you would have known that if you had read the entire post. EDIT : Also I have been posting them in the GM / Master hacking thread, I think it is obvious by now theres a hacker infestation and posting more replays in this thread rather in the ones already made would be obsolete. So to resume you post relevant information everywhere BUT where the reader would look i.e. directly in the concerned thread... | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
As a terran player I took several long breaks from HotS during the early periods where terran was just shit on. (5 - 21 weeks). My MMR is totally fucked. I'm literally playing platinum - GM players. I've played platinum players that have never hit diamond, platinum players that are 5-8 times masters players, diamond players that are ex masters, current masters, current masters that really shouldn't be masters and 2 Current GM players. I have no clue what is going on, like why even have a ranking system if it isn't going to correspond with your mmr in the slightest... Then the hackers... omfg... I have not encountered anyone I would have considered to have been hacking from WoL launch up until when I started playing again two weeks ago. And in those two weeks I've encountered 2 players that were blatently hacking and it makes me question every game I play. Like one guy was just blatantly map hacking and another guy who's blink stalkers would literally blink away the second I targeted a stalker if the amount of damage would have been lethal (Like they would blink perfectly just after loosing shields which isn't suspicious by itself, but if I target fired a stalker with more than enough marauders to kill it, the stalker I targeted would blink as soon as I issued the right-click command. :\. ). | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
So Blizzard doesn't want to demote casual players, because this is too big punishment. OK, so why not to demote the HC players on the top, GM only? When you are boosted to GM and then you are playing like a scumbag, system should demote you and since you were in GM you are super gamer who doesn't fear of losing, therefore the system can demote you over and over and over again until you are in the league where you are supposed to. Edit> Demoting system would be applied only to the season when you were in the GM so you can, ehm ehm, sell the account(or switch race) without being punished  Also banning hackers would be great, but I don't understand the logic, that we demote so ELITE players only for inactivity. If this system has been changed, please ignore my post  (I don't care 'bout GM, I don't have the skill to be there) Also, I would appreciate if you all, who are reading only the QQ not GM part, would start reading the post as a whole. The thread would be a nicer place. Oh, silly me, we are on the internets >< | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On January 18 2015 09:50 Clonester wrote: Only a 3rd Party Bnet will resolve these issues. Everything else wount be changed. Play unranked. You get the same enemys, but you dont care about points. I dont know how to solve the issues else. Blizzard does not care at all. Why do I say this? Look a Dota or LoL: how many maphackers are there? Nearly zero. Why? Because the client does not know what is behind the fog of war. In SC II since WoL Beta the client of each player knows the whole map and just fogs it. Easiest to hack, just extract the informations, you client allready has from the server. Same for the production tab hack. They just extract the informations out of their clients, because this really bad netcode sends them the whole information about their enemy. And you even do not need these informations. Blizzard knows this since brood war or at least since the "ban waves" in wc3 times. But they never cared and continued with this bad netcode and clientsystem. And why do they? A guy who cant hack would not play their game. A Hacker that gets banned, buys the game twice. More profit. They would serious engange their bad netcode and tune up their anticheat, if they wouldnt think that it hurts their income. The problem with the MMR and the pointsystem will only be solved via external battlenets. I hope they will come fast, otherwise this game dies. We see clearly, that blizzard doesnt even understand these demands. Wooohooo they get automated tournaments as a BRAND NEW BATTLENET FEATURE for LotV. Hey this BRAND NEW BATTLENET FEATURE... i saw it somewhere, oh year, in WC3 tft 12 years ago. Serious. This game will not survive without non blizzard multiplayersystems. Broodwar needed ICcup, Fish and Co. Wc III needed WC III Arena. SC II will need its own thing. And better fast, because the status quo will be the status dead. I just don't care 'bout the ladder matchmaking problem. However, what said in the quote above is just IMO the ONLY core of the problem. If you fix that, you fix the whole problem (not speaking 'bout kids blaming ladder system for their loss, tho. And I am not saying this is the case of OP.) | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 20 2015 19:54 paralleluniverse wrote: There are many problems with the ladder system and it should be overhauled, but none of the problems are the ones listed in the OP. In fact, everything the OP complains about is working as intended and an optimal ladder system would work in the same way as the current system does in these respects. Honestly, I don't see any reasoning to keep players "safe" spot in the top league in an optimal ladder system. If you are a horrible player or in a slump, get out, let others in. | ||
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