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On February 11 2015 03:14 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 23:14 OtherWorld wrote:Just make the MMR public and we'll be good to go ; no more false importance given to leagues and shit, only raw MMR number. On February 10 2015 23:14 boxerfred wrote:
well there's ICCUP for bw, ESEA for cs, why not go this way for starcraft? Wouldn't Blizzard try to shut something like this down? Blizzard preemptively shut this down by never allowing it in the first place. Without a LAN system there really isn't much the community can do to run their own ladder. Anti-cheat systems also don't just develop themselves. There needs to be a person or people with the incentive to do it. Without a community-run ladder system I don't see the incentive to develop an anti-cheat system for the purpose of protecting competitive integrity.
Blizzard just released the new WCS handbook that has a section saying it might be required for competitors to install additional software to make sure they aren't cheating. It isn't too far fetched to assume they are working to implement this into lotv to combat the hacking problem.
On February 10 2015 10:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
This is a personal issue for me, perhaps doesn't affect that many.
The MMR decay is much, much too steep. I'm so fucking inactive now due to the accursed realm known as 'real life', come back and grind 30-40 games over a day or two, stomp the majority of opponents in one-sided BS games, start to get back league wise to a bit below my 'peak'. Then I have a period of inactivity that sets me back to square one after a week or so of not playing.
I can still hang with many of the guys I used to play with, or at least not get stomped and those guys are active Dia players on the most part. When I go to ladder I'm stuck playing my way from silvers upwards. It's really not fucking fun at all. The only game mode I particular enjoy is 1v1 and I like testing myself against random opponents instead of always customing so there's less of a metagaming element (although I do like that too).
I literally don't play at all anymore because it seems unless I'm playing steadily I'll be undergoing the fucking trial of Sisyphus for the rest of my laddering life.
To be honest I'm mystified this isn't mentioned more often among the semi-regular ladderers among us.
In my experience complaints like these fall on deaf ears. I have seen a lot of people (including myself) that have complained about this. Usually the answer I get and/or see is "ladder more" or, "mmr decay doesn't work like that you are just bad" etc.
For me it's not like I HATE beating gold leaguers on my way back to diamond, it's more of the fact I have to play so many games to get back to the level that I earned. Especially when I only have a chance to play 6-7 days out of the month, if that. It was such a good feeling to get diamond league for me. Real life happens, I work too much, etc; I come back, silver league? Any sense of accomplishment I had, gone completely.
I would like to see a maximum league drop for inactivity, one league. If you earn a league but go inactive the last month of the season to achieve full mmr decay, you should only drop one league, not two or three. If you don't play an entire season then 2 leagues would be acceptable. Diamond to silver was super harsh. That begs the question though, is mmr decay entirely to blame or does the placement system need to be looked at as well? I'm ignorant to how it works but then again the entire system seems like rocket science.
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On February 11 2015 03:49 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 03:14 dUTtrOACh wrote:On February 10 2015 23:14 OtherWorld wrote:Just make the MMR public and we'll be good to go ; no more false importance given to leagues and shit, only raw MMR number. On February 10 2015 23:14 boxerfred wrote:
well there's ICCUP for bw, ESEA for cs, why not go this way for starcraft? Wouldn't Blizzard try to shut something like this down? Blizzard preemptively shut this down by never allowing it in the first place. Without a LAN system there really isn't much the community can do to run their own ladder. Anti-cheat systems also don't just develop themselves. There needs to be a person or people with the incentive to do it. Without a community-run ladder system I don't see the incentive to develop an anti-cheat system for the purpose of protecting competitive integrity. Blizzard just released the new WCS handbook that has a section saying it might be required for competitors to install additional software to make sure they aren't cheating. It isn't too far fetched to assume they are working to implement this into lotv to combat the hacking problem.
I didn't say that Blizzard wouldn't develop their own AC, or work with a partner in developing AC. I said that a community-run ladder with its own AC will never exist, because Blizzard won't allow it to exist and thus nobody would likely develop the AC software out of the kindness of his heart.
In fact, I hope that some measures are taken in-house by Blizzard to implement some form of anti-cheat by the release of LotV. It would be nice if they had done it sooner, but hell... what more can I do but buy each expansion on its release day and give them the maximum amount of money possible?
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On February 11 2015 04:15 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 03:49 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2015 03:14 dUTtrOACh wrote:On February 10 2015 23:14 OtherWorld wrote:Just make the MMR public and we'll be good to go ; no more false importance given to leagues and shit, only raw MMR number. On February 10 2015 23:14 boxerfred wrote:
well there's ICCUP for bw, ESEA for cs, why not go this way for starcraft? Wouldn't Blizzard try to shut something like this down? Blizzard preemptively shut this down by never allowing it in the first place. Without a LAN system there really isn't much the community can do to run their own ladder. Anti-cheat systems also don't just develop themselves. There needs to be a person or people with the incentive to do it. Without a community-run ladder system I don't see the incentive to develop an anti-cheat system for the purpose of protecting competitive integrity. Blizzard just released the new WCS handbook that has a section saying it might be required for competitors to install additional software to make sure they aren't cheating. It isn't too far fetched to assume they are working to implement this into lotv to combat the hacking problem. I didn't say that Blizzard wouldn't develop their own AC, or work with a partner in developing AC. I said that a community-run ladder with its own AC will never exist, because Blizzard won't allow it to exist and thus nobody would likely develop the AC software out of the kindness of his heart. In fact, I hope that some measures are taken in-house by Blizzard to implement some form of anti-cheat by the release of LotV. It would be nice if they had done it sooner, but hell... what more can I do but buy each expansion on its release day and give them the maximum amount of money possible?
The problem with anti-cheat sistems is that they have to scan the computer to see if theres any other programs running in the background, now that is fine and all if it wasn't for all the paranoia regarding big companies and personal information, if they released a program in the ladder that scans the computer of the players Blizzard could be accussed of getting personal information from the computers in this way and Blizzard isn't willing to go throught all the legal problems that it will bring. A lot of people wouldn't think is stupid but you would be surprised the amount of people that is willing to take even the smallest of things to sue a big company, not to mention the paranoic people that are, well, paranoic (every week I see some news about facebook being an evil company that steals the information and sells the souls of its users)
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On February 11 2015 04:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 04:15 dUTtrOACh wrote:On February 11 2015 03:49 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2015 03:14 dUTtrOACh wrote:On February 10 2015 23:14 OtherWorld wrote:Just make the MMR public and we'll be good to go ; no more false importance given to leagues and shit, only raw MMR number. On February 10 2015 23:14 boxerfred wrote:
well there's ICCUP for bw, ESEA for cs, why not go this way for starcraft? Wouldn't Blizzard try to shut something like this down? Blizzard preemptively shut this down by never allowing it in the first place. Without a LAN system there really isn't much the community can do to run their own ladder. Anti-cheat systems also don't just develop themselves. There needs to be a person or people with the incentive to do it. Without a community-run ladder system I don't see the incentive to develop an anti-cheat system for the purpose of protecting competitive integrity. Blizzard just released the new WCS handbook that has a section saying it might be required for competitors to install additional software to make sure they aren't cheating. It isn't too far fetched to assume they are working to implement this into lotv to combat the hacking problem. I didn't say that Blizzard wouldn't develop their own AC, or work with a partner in developing AC. I said that a community-run ladder with its own AC will never exist, because Blizzard won't allow it to exist and thus nobody would likely develop the AC software out of the kindness of his heart. In fact, I hope that some measures are taken in-house by Blizzard to implement some form of anti-cheat by the release of LotV. It would be nice if they had done it sooner, but hell... what more can I do but buy each expansion on its release day and give them the maximum amount of money possible? The problem with anti-cheat sistems is that they have to scan the computer to see if theres any other programs running in the background, now that is fine and all if it wasn't for all the paranoia regarding big companies and personal information, if they released a program in the ladder that scans the computer of the players Blizzard could be accussed of getting personal information from the computers in this way and Blizzard isn't willing to go throught all the legal problems that it will bring. A lot of people wouldn't think is stupid but you would be surprised the amount of people that is willing to take even the smallest of things to sue a big company, not to mention the paranoic people that are, well, paranoic (every week I see some news about facebook being an evil company that steals the information and sells the souls of its users)
Paranoid delusion aside, gamers are typically willing to accept the inner workings of an anti-cheat system as long as they're able to enjoy a cheater/hacker-free online gaming experience. Many Steam games, for example, have additional anti-cheat software that people accept as a necessary evil that ensures a fair playing field. If you're going to site paranoia as a reason not to have anti-cheat I'm not sure if we can have a serious discussion... The bizarre workings of a lunatic's mind don't factor in to most of my decision making, and I'm pretty sure they won't need your Social Security Number and Credit Card Info to ensure you're not cheating at SC2.
I'd say a more common complaint from people is that the anti-cheat system causes additional lag / strain on the resources of the computer. Luckily for us, Starcraft 2 is optimized very well and the impact of adding an anti-cheat system would be minimal if not unnoticeable.
EDIT: I fear we're veering a bit off-topic here anyway. This thread was about how GGzerG can't be GM with the current state of the ladder system. I think the anti-hacker / anti-cheat portion of the OP was just a rant.
I have a proposition: Make GM the top 10,000 players in a region. That way, everybody can be GM.
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The problem with anti-cheat sistems is that they have to scan the computer to see if theres any other programs running in the background, now that is fine and all if it wasn't for all the paranoia regarding big companies and personal information, if they released a program in the ladder that scans the computer of the players Blizzard could be accussed of getting personal information from the computers in this way and Blizzard isn't willing to go throught all the legal problems that it will bring. A lot of people wouldn't think is stupid but you would be surprised the amount of people that is willing to take even the smallest of things to sue a big company, not to mention the paranoic people that are, well, paranoic (every week I see some news about facebook being an evil company that steals the information and sells the souls of its users)
You should read the battle.net terms and agreements they already say they can do whatever they want..
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MMR decay is a problem I believe. I can admit that I really don't know to what extent the decay affect MMR in detail, just like many others find it strange that are so many people in a waaay lower league than they should be just based on league history.
So the other possibilities are 1) people got insanely worse at the game 2) the higher leagues shrunk like... A LOT. Raises the question; can really leagues be viewed as a measure stick of skills when there are former diamond and even MASTER players in silver/gold roflstomping every opponent they meet in a neverending cycle of roflstomp --> inactivity + mmr decay --> roflstomp --> inactivity + mmr decay and so on. Keep in mind that a LARGE portion of SC2 players are rather inactive. Who knows how much this is messing shit up. Wont deny, the thought of the two occasional master players squaring it off in Silver league while battling their MMR decay is somewhat comical.
Just give us real transparancy with the MMR rating already and end the confusion. Many of us just want to know how good we are compared to; ourselves months ago, and others now. And we'll never know at this rate.
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United States12240 Posts
Showing MMR doesn't actually shed any light on wacky matchups caused as a result of decay. Instead of a former-Master Silver playing against a former-Master Silver, you see a 500 MMR vs a 500 MMR. That doesn't actually tell us anything. And knowing what their old MMR was doesn't really help either because it's not relevant to the current matchup.
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Regarding being stuck in "lower" leagues:
I enjoy not being in masters for the first time (after a long SC2 break). If I ever get promoted it will feel a lot more rewarding. GM was never in reach, and masters felt too easy. So for the first time I have motivation to improve my play.
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On February 11 2015 09:34 Shah420 wrote:
MMR decay is a problem I believe. I can admit that I really don't know to what extent the decay affect MMR in detail, just like many others find it strange that are so many people in a waaay lower league than they should be just based on league history.
I don't like MMR decay but for one simpler reason, there's already a system designed to reward active players without being felt as a punishment for others, it's the bonus pool system. If you max out and don't harvest them they're literally lost.
Also MMR decay as a cap and the volatility of your MMR should increasing, you shouldn't be "stuck" in way lower league for long.
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MMR decay has been ruining me as well, last season i was 50-32 (although at one point i was at like 29-3 or something stupid), and this season i am 32-12, with my first page of match history 13-4 and on a winstreak. I'm really tired of grinding out games, and the players have been inconsistent as well. Sometimes I'll play against players who are about my level and i'll go even or lose, but then I'll meet players that are significantly worse than me. I know that after 10-20 more games I should face opponents who i'll go 50/50 against, its just depressing to have to grind before I can do this. I do feel its unfair to my opponents as well, as many of them realize that I do not belong in their league after checking my profile.
As a sidenote, for some reason sc2 ranks never updates my profile on their site either.
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As a sidenote, for some reason sc2 ranks never updates my profile on their site either.
I think nios.kr is more reliable of a source these days, I could be wrong.
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On February 11 2015 12:50 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +
As a sidenote, for some reason sc2 ranks never updates my profile on their site either.
I think nios.kr is more reliable of a source these days, I could be wrong.
yeah it seems like I am at least up to date on nios
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On February 11 2015 13:09 stink123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 12:50 GGzerG wrote:
As a sidenote, for some reason sc2 ranks never updates my profile on their site either.
I think nios.kr is more reliable of a source these days, I could be wrong. yeah it seems like I am at least up to date on nios
Nvm Search is my friend
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On February 11 2015 12:35 stink123 wrote:
MMR decay has been ruining me as well, last season i was 50-32 (although at one point i was at like 29-3 or something stupid), and this season i am 32-12, with my first page of match history 13-4 and on a winstreak. I'm really tired of grinding out games, and the players have been inconsistent as well. Sometimes I'll play against players who are about my level and i'll go even or lose, but then I'll meet players that are significantly worse than me. I know that after 10-20 more games I should face opponents who i'll go 50/50 against, its just depressing to have to grind before I can do this. I do feel its unfair to my opponents as well, as many of them realize that I do not belong in their league after checking my profile.
As a sidenote, for some reason sc2 ranks never updates my profile on their site either.
Exactly, the disparity of the players in the leagues is huge. Former 21 times masters in platinum, no wonder he wins. Also the amount of smurf accounts is insane, 300 apm silver players with fantastic micro facing diamonds. People who are currently playing sc2 are imho die hards. I can totally understand that a lot of players dont want to play anymore, and new players dont want to invest a lot of time in this game if leagues arent working well.
Hope they will improve things because diamond at the moment is just a silly league with former gm's and masters in it.
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On February 11 2015 11:54 varsovie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 09:34 Shah420 wrote:
MMR decay is a problem I believe. I can admit that I really don't know to what extent the decay affect MMR in detail, just like many others find it strange that are so many people in a waaay lower league than they should be just based on league history.
I don't like MMR decay but for one simpler reason, there's already a system designed to reward active players without being felt as a punishment for others, it's the bonus pool system. If you max out and don't harvest them they're literally lost. Also MMR decay as a cap and the volatility of your MMR should increasing, you shouldn't be "stuck" in way lower league for long.
While there is a cap on the decay it starts again if you just play a few unranked games. Also you dont even have to be inactive, you can play 1k+ teamgames in a season and your 1v1 decays anyways. And if you play 1v1--->4v4 and a few AT teams there is a lot of mmr to keep from decay.
But as you said, there already is a really good system for this in the bonus pool, but somehow someone on blizzard decided that it was not enough.
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On February 11 2015 11:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Showing MMR doesn't actually shed any light on wacky matchups caused as a result of decay. Instead of a former-Master Silver playing against a former-Master Silver, you see a 500 MMR vs a 500 MMR. That doesn't actually tell us anything. And knowing what their old MMR was doesn't really help either because it's not relevant to the current matchup.
Showing MMR will let you know the exact extent of the decay if you go from an active period to an inactive one, so I still see it being helpful. Let's say I play everyday for a couple of months and have a MMR of 1300, then I go inactive for a month and my MMR drops off to say 1000. According to the MMR decay I have dropped x percentage in skill, in this case my skill after a month of inactivity is 1000/1300 of my former skill, which in my case wouldn't reflect the exampled scenario at all. Maybe for the first 2-3 games. It seem the rate of which MMR decay drops your MMR compared to how fast you regain it is unrealistically unbalanced for higher level players who just want to play casually. I think MMR transparency doesn't hurt at least.
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United States12240 Posts
On February 12 2015 00:57 Shah420 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Showing MMR doesn't actually shed any light on wacky matchups caused as a result of decay. Instead of a former-Master Silver playing against a former-Master Silver, you see a 500 MMR vs a 500 MMR. That doesn't actually tell us anything. And knowing what their old MMR was doesn't really help either because it's not relevant to the current matchup. Showing MMR will let you know the exact extent of the decay if you go from an active period to an inactive one, so I still see it being helpful. Let's say I play everyday for a couple of months and have a MMR of 1300, then I go inactive for a month and my MMR drops off to say 1000. According to the MMR decay I have dropped x percentage in skill, in this case my skill after a month of inactivity is 1000/1300 of my former skill, which in my case wouldn't reflect the exampled scenario at all. Maybe for the first 2-3 games. It seem the rate of which MMR decay drops your MMR compared to how fast you regain it is unrealistically unbalanced for higher level players who just want to play casually. I think MMR transparency doesn't hurt at least.
Being 1000 now and 1300 then doesn't mean you're 1000/1300 of your true skill, that's not how rating is read. Dropping from 600 to 300 doesn't mean you're half as good as you used to be. A 200 player is not twice as good as a 100 player, a 2000 player is not twice as good as a 1000 player. It is the distance between two values that translates to an expected win percentage, not the values themselves. If 1000 vs 1300 meant that you have a 25% chance to win, 1000 vs 700 would then mean that you have a 75% chance to win, just as a 700 player would have a 75% chance to win against a 400 player, and a 400 player has a 75% chance to win against a 100 player. As you get near the very top of the ladder and even matches are found less frequently, meaning you earn fewer rating for beating those lower than you, then obviously a 300 rating difference becomes difficult to maintain because your win rate has to be that much higher.
Revealing MMR would indeed be very helpful. However, it doesn't address the root problem caused by decay, which is why other things would need to happen in order to restore the ladder.
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Gotta say I echo this sentiment.
I am a top diamond player who only really started ladder seriously and bought hots last summer.
ever since I started laddering competitively, progress through rankings have been benchmark and solid "proof" of my improvement and I enjoyed the challenge of climbing through ranks the first season I started.
Then I hit the diamond to masters wall 2 seasons ago. After working through 2 seasons of being top diamond and finishing within top 40 of diamond on Nios while going against legit low-mid gms like that bm ass plsleaveduck and others, being "evenly matched" against other masters league players with positive win record, even getting completely smashed against RuFF, whom I enjoy watching, a few times.
I dont really feel rewarded anymore. Diamond seems to be purgatory where even a good win streak ends when it inevitably matches you up until you hit higher gms to get crushed to start back again.
After a season and half of this, it gets bit draining after initial excitement of "oh my god I am facing legit gms!". You feel like you aren't going anywhere with being rewarded and all for your performances. It feels like a chore and motivation to get better saps away little by little.
anyway, while ladder is working as intended, its carrot that dangles in front of players isnt working as well. One of my friends had to go on 20+ win streak against mid gms to even get promoted from diamond to masters with his final game being win against sirrobin who is a solid gm player.
Doesnt really make sense for a person to need to consistently win against players 2 tiers higher on ladder ranks to even get shot of promotion does it?
On February 10 2015 19:33 WarreN95 wrote:
Hell, if one of your accounts is {Ever}IIIIIIIIIII I even played you while boosting an account and you were salty as fuck, and that's definitely not the way to improve.
I don't want to say "l2p n00b," but saying the ladder and your account is broken is pretty retarded. The ladder is working as intended. You win some, you lose some. That's it. Just focus on you and what you need to do to improve.
Lol I saw that ever Barcode get salty as hell after getting rekt by supernova's mass viking trollgame and told him to learn to play.
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EPT
