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Hello Team Liquid, I have not really posted a thread in the SC2 General section in a long time, and I don't usually write things this long. I posted this on Blizzard's website and I feel that I have hit some valid points and would like to open it for discussion here as well. Please keep in mind this is from my experience on SC2 ladder with over 15 thousand 1v1 ladder games on several accounts, Thank you.
So I created a topic last night that I guess was "against the forum guidelines" , which is understandable since I was extremely angry. This topic I will be more professional and level headed.
About me: I have played SC for 15+ years, since SC1:BW. I was never a top foreign player in SC1:BW but I was above the average Joe.
I have played SC2 since WOL Beta, so 4+ years. I am a 18 Times Masters player and have never been promoted to GM. Last season I was stuck in Diamond, played almost 800 games and towards the end of the season I was playing ONLY GM / Masters players, still not getting promoted. This season I played 29 games and was immediately promoted to Masters with 21-8 record. When I got promoted to Masters it placed me at rank 18, 130-137 points or so. I continued to win but after being promoted only receiving +4 / +8 points a game, so I continued to win 2-3 games , +4 , +8, +4. Then I lost the next two-three games. The next two games the amount of points I lost is ridiculous. -18,-21,-16, and so on. Even when I have an above 50% W/L ratio (Which the ladder system attempts to force upon every player) , the point distribution does not seem to be fair at all. And now from 130-137 points , I am now sitting at 30 points (LOL) , Because of the poor point distribution, even when I am above 50% W/L ratio. Please do not reply saying " Well just keep playing , the point distribution will level out", AND THEN WHAT? Another Season I cannot get GM because the ladder point distribution is broken?
How can I possibly ever get to GrandMasters when every single player in my division has around the same if not worse W/L ratio than me but my point distribution is not level with the people in my division? The people in my division are not gaining +4,+6, +8 points a game and then losing -18,-21,-16 points EVERY loss, even vs ex GM, ex masters, ECT.
The problem is not just dedicated just onto the point distribution, the problem is also the amount of HACKERS that I am playing on ladder every single day, and it is not questionable hacking , it is 100% obvious never scouting, 100%HARD COUNTERING builds. I am not the only person who has been complaining about this issue, there are several threads on Teamliquid, and on Reddit about this issue.
The hackers are not just MapHacking, they have Production tab hacks, you cannot even prove that they hack really when they never look through fog of war, the only way that it can be proved is through extreme analysis, and Blizzard's "Warden", but I regret to inform that I think the "Ban Waves" are not ideal, and I don't think Blizzard's "Warden" Anti-Hack is ideal either.
There is a long list of hacks and exploits now that Blizzard needs to address to make laddering an even somewhat enjoyable experience.
List of Hacks and Exploits and Problems in Ladder and in general. :
-MapHacking
-Production Hacks
-Resolution Hacks( This is a hack that gives the player a larger more zoomed out screen, he can see more of the screen than normal, like the Blizzard Observer Mode IN GAME., I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM.)
-Blink Hack (Automatically blinks stalkers for the player, giving protoss huge micro management advantage)
-Auto Inject Hack (Automatically injects queens for you, is pretty easy to notice, if the Zerg player has NO EXTRA energy on his queens ALL GAME.)
-Players glitching / exploiting ladder by logging into SC2 on another game while they are in a game, which causes the game to not show in the match history, and causes the player to not receive a loss, many players have gotten to Masters and GM using this glitch, which in turn makes the ladder distribution even more broken.
-Account boosters in public / Blizzard channels. (People spamming channels saying they will boost accounts for money, generally these players are hackers, exploiters, and fake GM players, they most likely were boosted to GM or cheated to get there.
-Ladder distribution / point system / promotional system is broken. ::: I am living proof of this issue ( go back to the top of the page for more description on my specific ladder issue, or just look into my profile....)
-- --Once again I do not know if this is caused by the player over playing ruining his MMR(Which is ridiculous and I don't think this is the issue) , or that the system is just poor and needs to be totally revamped, a GREAT example of a GREAT working ladder was in SC1:BROODWAR, ladder servers like PGT(Pro Gaming Tour) , Gamei (Korean Ladder Server), SC2GG ( SC1 Server before SC2 was released with auto match making), iCCup, ect. ALL of these SC1:BW ladder servers were a way more efficient system, better way to track improvement and promotions felt more rewarding , (Do any of you remember how difficult you were fighting to get that A- rank in broodwar? Yeah, so do I. When was the last time you felt that way? I haven't felt this way since I got put in Masters back in like WOL Beta / Early stage of WOL. , and even then it as not nearly as rewarding.)
-- -- -- Last season was a prime example, Masters was only the top 1% of players, GM was full of hackers, boosted accounts, Diamond was full of ex masters (Like me last season) , and Masters full of Diamonds. A midst of the broken ladder system, we were given the Dream Pool. Derp.
-The majority of the maps have been not been very good, the Dream Pool was a prime example of this. ALL of the maps during Early WOL , Beta, and really up until this point have been poorly designed, imbalanced, too short of rush distance, ect. And even now the maps are so unorthodox and all of them have relatively difficult to reach 3rds.
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I only play 1v1 ladder, I do not play team games, I do not play custom games, I play solely ladder because for the last 4+ years I have been trying to reach the top of the ladder, been trying to get to Grand Masters, but I almost feel that it is impossible for me, I don't know if it is because the MMR on my account is ****ED because I have over 11 thousand games and my account is totally messed up, or it is the ladder, but one of the two is completely broken, if not both.
What am I supposed to do? Buy another account and cross my fingers that this next 4 years and next 11 thousand 300+ games will go better this time?
As I stated before my last thread was closed for being inappropriate so I worded this one more professionally and made sure I followed the guidelines, I have been one of your biggest supporters since SC1:BW Blizzard, I have played 15+ years, and I promote StarCraft my entire life, but I regret to inform that my gaming experience is being ruined by the poor ladder system, hackers, cheaters, boosters, ect.
I would politely ask that PSIONE, Blizzard, or both PLEASE, PLEASE take into consideration MY ACCOUNT SPECIFICALLY, if there is an issue with it then PLEASE FIX IT. And if not then to take into consideration the ladder system. I think that Blizzard needs to take a little more from StarCraft 1's Past, like the very best thing, the LADDER SYSTEM.....
EDIT : Updated OP with Blink / Auto Inject Hack.
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Link to the full thread on battle.net : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15699466115?page=1
Poll: Should SC2's Ladder be Reworked?Yes, but a completely different system. (194) 55% Yes, more like one of the Ladder Systems in BW. (96) 27% No, it should stay the same. (63) 18% 353 total votes Your vote: Should SC2's Ladder be Reworked? (Vote): Yes, more like one of the Ladder Systems in BW.
(Vote): Yes, but a completely different system.
(Vote): No, it should stay the same.
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I've been feeling for a while that the only way forward is for the sc2 community to create leagues/ladders separate from the official blizzard one, and force people to run invasive anti-cheat software on their computer for the wins to count. I believe ESEA does something similar for CS:GO - they basically ask you to install a rootkit on your machine. This isn't really ideal, but unfortunately sc2 is so poorly designed that there is no realistic hope of blizzard ever stopping cheaters. I never played BW at a competitive level but I can only assume that there must have been similar software developed at that time...
If we keep waiting for blizzard to save us, we're going to be very dissapointed. They appear to have neither the interest nor ability in keeping their games cheat-free. It's all on us to do something.
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The way leagues and divisions work don't feel that great, but the SC2 ladder system is extremely good at putting you where you deserve to be very quickly. All you need is like 30 games and you'll be where you should be.
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On January 17 2015 16:03 ZAiNs wrote:
The way leagues and divisions work don't feel that great, but the SC2 ladder system is extremely good at putting you where you deserve to be very quickly. All you need is like 30 games and you'll be where you should be.
That is not the case, which is what ggzerg is writing about.
The system matches you up with the right people (most of the time) but your rank (dia/m/gm) is not an accurate display of your current skill level in the higher leagues.
Hackers and boosters take spots and overall screw with the system. There needs to be more and better diversification between the leagues so you actually see improvement. Losing 5 games of points worth in one loss is discouraging for somebody trying to motivate himself to get a higher rank...
I can certainly see what ggzerg talks about. What would your ideal alternative be?
Also note, Unranked accounts have a wider range of searching for opponents, which might be an explanation for the phenomenon of you losing tons of points in a game and gaining little: the matchmaking tries to get you a match fast and as a result you often play far lower ranked players.
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Can someone tell me what the Brood War laddering system was?
And I totally agree with the current ladder system. Its flawed and relatively uninteresting.
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On January 17 2015 15:48 GGzerG wrote:
The next two games the amount of points I lost is ridiculous. -18,-21,-16, and so on. Even when I have an above 50% W/L ratio (Which the ladder system attempts to force upon every player) , the point distribution does not seem to be fair at all. And now from 130-137 points , I am now sitting at 30 points (LOL) , Because of the poor point distribution, even when I am above 50% W/L ratio. Please do not reply saying " Well just keep playing , the point distribution will level out", AND THEN WHAT? Another Season I cannot get GM because the ladder point distribution is broken?
How can I possibly ever get to GrandMasters when every single player in my division has around the same if not worse W/L ratio than me but my point distribution is not level with the people in my division?
The problem is not just dedicated just onto the point distribution, the problem is also the amount of HACKERS that I am playing on ladder every single day, and it is not questionable hacking , it is 100% obvious never scouting, 100%HARD COUNTERING builds. I am not the only person who has been complaining about this issue, there are several threads on Teamliquid, and on Reddit about this issue.
The hackers are not just MapHacking, they have Production tab hacks, you cannot even prove that they hack really when they never look through fog of war, the only way that it can be proved is through extreme analysis, and Blizzard's "Warden", but I regret to inform that I think the "Ban Waves" are not ideal, and I don't think Blizzard's "Warden" Anti-Hack is ideal either.
There is a long list of hacks and exploits now that Blizzard needs to address to make laddering an even somewhat enjoyable experience.
List of Hacks and Exploits and Problems in Ladder and in general. :
-MapHacking
-Production Hacks
-Resolution Hacks( This is a hack that gives the player a larger more zoomed out screen, he can see more of the screen than normal, like the Blizzard Observer Mode IN GAME., I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM.)
-Blink Hack (Automatically blinks stalkers for the player, giving protoss huge micro management advantage)
-Auto Inject Hack (Automatically injects queens for you, is pretty easy to notice, if the Zerg player has NO EXTRA energy on his queens ALL GAME.)
-Players glitching / exploiting ladder by logging into SC2 on another game while they are in a game, which causes the game to not show in the match history, and causes the player to not receive a loss, many players have gotten to Masters and GM using this glitch, which in turn makes the ladder distribution even more broken.
-Account boosters in public / Blizzard channels. (People spamming channels saying they will boost accounts for money, generally these players are hackers, exploiters, and fake GM players, they most likely were boosted to GM or cheated to get there.
I'll try to be as brief in my response as I can ... but.. hmm..
#1: The system is working as intended. The higher rank you get the more the system tries to drag you down. That's why you see GM players gaining +4 with BP and then losing -20+ some games, even vs other high GM players. For instance, when I was top 16 GM I'd lose vs a top 50 GM player and lose nearly 30pts sometimes. That's the system. It applies the same to you just at a different league.
As unfortunate as it is for me to inform you, even if you have a good w/l record it means very little, and in fact, it means even less at lower leagues. What is most important is who you are losing to. So, when you lose those -20 games then it is obvious you will not be getting to GM because that is just how the matchmaking system works. Logically speaking, if you're saying you're beating masters/GM players then why would you complain about losing to ex-gm players? Just beat them also! It is obvious to imagine that you'll need to beat players of this caliber to eventually get into GM.
#2: Hackers, yes. There are a lot. In fact, I am in the same boat as you completely on this one. The hacker issue on NA is a joke. It has honestly completely ruined the top 200 masters through the top 50 GM for me and I will not be laddering again until both that and the map issue is fixed. The game is simply not enjoyable, especially for protoss players under such circumstances.
#3: As angry as you may be, and as angry as many others of us may be, it is up to blizzard to implement actual anti-cheat or provide safe usage of 3rd party programs that would at least detect others hacking. The only way I ever see this happening is if there is a large protest directly to, and aimed at, these issues. However, nothing of the sort has been done yet, and honestly, I don't think Blizzard cares enough to invest money in such a thing when only 6(?) people work on WCS from blizzard.
Simply put, the issue will never go away so either try to mobilize something yourself or just quit. If they don't gain revenue from games they need to rethink how to make them or gain the money.
-just some thoughts from me, but please don't misunderstand the first part, I am not happy with blizzard overall at this point either.
oh and edit: I did notice that this season seems to be quite messed up in terms of league placements. I was playing quite a few players on a smurf that were in diamond but I wasn't losing nearly any pts though they were masters last season O.o didn't make much sense since the acc has like top 100 gm mmr.. lol
also, many of the people who boost accounts are "legit" in that they do it, so please don't throw players under the rug. The amount of people they impact in lower leagues is incredibly minimal, and honestly, rather negligible.
In terms of people glitching ladder... I've heard of no one doing this to get to GM O.o The only people who had no match history were clear hackers from imbaQQ, many of whom still have not been banned.
On January 17 2015 16:19 iMrising wrote:
Can someone tell me what the Brood War laddering system was?
And I totally agree with the current ladder system. Its flawed and relatively uninteresting.
on ICCUP you could pick who you played, when you wanted to play them, what map, and what race. So, hypothetically speaking, you could get to the "highest rank" only playing 1 map and 1 race match up... say PvZ on overgrowth over and over vs different high ranked people, for example. (You are restricted by rank to a certain channel to look for other players, and once you gain enough pts you are raised from that channel to the next where you can play vs any of those players if they agree, then u just set up a lobby and it tracks it)
#plschaoslauncherpls
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On January 17 2015 16:20 -Kyo- wrote:
I'll try to be as brief in my response as I can ... but.. hmm..
#1: The system is working as intended. The higher rank you get the more the system tries to drag you down. That's why you see GM players gaining +4 with BP and then losing -20+ some games, even vs other high GM players. For instance, when I was top 16 GM I'd lose vs a top 50 GM player and lose nearly 30pts sometimes. That's the system. It applies the same to you just at a different league.
As unfortunate as it is for me to inform you, even if you have a good w/l record it means very little, and in fact, it means even less at lower leagues. What is most important is who you are losing to. So, when you lose those -20 games then it is obvious you will not be getting to GM because that is just how the matchmaking system works. Logically speaking, if you're saying you're beating masters/GM players then why would you complain about losing to ex-gm players? Just beat them also! It is obvious to imagine that you'll need to beat players of this caliber to eventually get into GM.
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... Hmmm Kyo kinda contradicting -_-
EDIT : It seems like you really like to mention the fact you are GM, and I don't really think it is relevant now to be honest.
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You are not being promoted into GM simply because you arent good enough. System does not always match you against somoene of equal skill. You gain little points against a lower skilled player and more point against a GM/higher skilled one. Your +4 +8 points won suggest that those opponents are lower skilled despite their rank, rank and points does not matter in such cases.
Ive never had a problem with not being promoted into GM back when i was actually decent. Ive noticed that i often got promoted during the start of the season or when i was beating GMs consistently. Are you beating GMs consistently atm? If you arent then your not good enough to be promoted into the league, although i do agree that hackers took up alot of the spots.
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you're blaming the ladder for not getting GM? cmon man.
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My personal opinion about ranking system's is that a certain property, namely transparency for the user, is very important and often overlooked ( often the discussion is only about how accurate the system rates).
Personally, i am only speaking for myself, beeing able with little effort to understand why you are ranked where you are and why you win/loose so much points are very important factors for me, even more than a very accurate ranking system.
Therefore i prefer simple ELO style ladder sytems ( with only one ladder) and no other special provisions.
I think there will always be abusers using some ways to gain a high rank in an unintented way but if your system is very transparent this means little because everyone will see at a glance that the rank is not justified(without a deep investigation needed, by a look at the match history for example)
Concerning the Sc2 ranking system, i do prefer as written a simpler system, but i still think its not bad, has its ups and downs as already mentioned, comes down to personal preference i guess.
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No i'm not blaming the ladder for not getting GM that is not the point and you know it isn't, and we both know about you and your spiteful posts Gamegene, just take a gander. The point is the system in general, it is ridiculous to say "You can't lose to someone lower league / ranked " than you because you cannot play perfect 100% of the time, there are smurfs, and there are hackers. Which is why if you read the whole thread you would have already understood that. The system needs to be reworked all together, it isn't about me I was just using myself as an example. There are a lot of random masters players that get in GM and have very few games all season, so yes it is basically a joke of a system.
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It's a good point of discussion, but with you whining in every single section of the OP it certainly does give that impression that this is more you venting your own personal frustrations.
Personally speaking, I feel like people are missing the main point of the matchmaking system, which is to be an easy and quick way to get games with equally matched opponents and the ladder does it very well aside from unranked match making being able to match with ranked. If you stripped out all the leagues and the ranks and the badges, the main function is still fulfilled; hackers are a separate problem that weasel their way into everyone's matches but the system by itself is fine.
Given that other free games are getting it right with how they deal with rank appearances, it's more than reasonable to want the ladder leader boards to be clear and understandable when it comes to who has the highest (hidden) MMR. But I feel like most people would feel a lot better about themselves and their diamond opponents if they just stopped caring so much about these little icons.
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The ladder system works as intended. It does need to be reworked though(bonus pool should not determine staying in gm, league divsions need to be removed, etc.).
You get +4 and -18 because it is the start of a new season. It is more based on your mmr and not your opponent until you get closer to your supposed true point value. My first 30 games are all +24/-0 regardless of who I play because my mmr is high. My friend last season was 110-100 with 1 point and I was at like 10-5 with 350 points. Pretty sure the +24/-0's caused one of the koreans to get in a lot of trouble a few years ago(rock paper scissors to see who wins?)
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Stop caring about your ladder rank, no ladder is ever an accurate depiction of people's skill, it's a way of life. Broodwar wasn't. Instead of looking at ladder as a validation of your skill level just use it as the practice tool it is. Some Terrible players cheese everyday all day to get gm and they neve actually create the skill knowledge or muscle memory to be good overall players. It's all meaningless and there is very little that cold be done to change that.
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I was Masters and i stopped playing solo because of freaking hackers. They are everywhere now and i got a bit dissapointed with Blizzard not doing anything and I have more than 10-15k games or more played. Solo is just no more fun. Hope they do something but lol maybe another year at best or they never address the hackers problem.
No freaking point playing hard in 1v1 and losing to hackers.
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On January 17 2015 16:31 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 16:20 -Kyo- wrote:
I'll try to be as brief in my response as I can ... but.. hmm..
#1: The system is working as intended. The higher rank you get the more the system tries to drag you down. That's why you see GM players gaining +4 with BP and then losing -20+ some games, even vs other high GM players. For instance, when I was top 16 GM I'd lose vs a top 50 GM player and lose nearly 30pts sometimes. That's the system. It applies the same to you just at a different league.
As unfortunate as it is for me to inform you, even if you have a good w/l record it means very little, and in fact, it means even less at lower leagues. What is most important is who you are losing to. So, when you lose those -20 games then it is obvious you will not be getting to GM because that is just how the matchmaking system works. Logically speaking, if you're saying you're beating masters/GM players then why would you complain about losing to ex-gm players? Just beat them also! It is obvious to imagine that you'll need to beat players of this caliber to eventually get into GM.
. ... Hmmm Kyo kinda contradicting -_- EDIT : It seems like you really like to mention the fact you are GM, and I don't really think it is relevant now to be honest.
Clearly you either didn't care for anything I actually said or just don't like me if that is all you pulled away from what I said here O.o
I gave you an example of when I would lose to someone and then hoped you would imply, especially given that I even said in the very next sentence, that in your case to increase your ladder rank you would, just as anyone else does, have to minimize your losses to those people whom you would lose -20 than to the other people whom you would lose -5 to...
OF COURSE!!!!
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playing games from blizzard for 15+ years doesnt make MORE interessting for Blizzard. If you are not making it into GM...well than you have to play more or better. Or do you want to say that players like ForGG and TLO are hacking cause they are on GM Ladder? Of course there are Hackers on ladder...but this is an never ending fight.
From my point of view the ladder system works right...but to be honest i play this game for fun so i dont give a damm about my ranking, since i dont have to pay my bills with this like you.
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Well yea It was a complaint on my own personal level as well since I did post it on Blizzard intention in the hope that I would get an answer about my account specifically because it didn't make sense to me, that part I should have mentioned.
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I agree with you on the hacker part. However the only explanation to you not being GM is prolly because youre not GM-level. The ladder system might seem sadistic as fuck in some ways, but if youre good enough you should be gm.
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This is all true I guess, a more informative system in general would be what i'm interested in I guess....
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EPT
