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On January 18 2015 02:30 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 22:16 Scarecrow wrote:On January 17 2015 21:35 Haukinger wrote:-MapHacking
-Production Hacks
-Resolution Hacks( This is a hack that gives the player a larger more zoomed out screen, he can see more of the screen than normal, like the Blizzard Observer Mode IN GAME., I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM.)
-Blink Hack (Automatically blinks stalkers for the player, giving protoss huge micro management advantage)
-Auto Inject Hack (Automatically injects queens for you, is pretty easy to notice, if the Zerg player has NO EXTRA energy on his queens ALL GAME.) Never understood really why all these aren't actually built into the game. All this dumb mechanical stuff is like "fightning-the-controls", isn't it? Why can't marines split automatically? Why do banelings roll into Marauders when Marines are around? Why can't I just select a build order and alt-tab? It's almost like this is a game that requires strategy, control and decisions in real time. Well, it first and foremost requires control. I bet, if you're fast enough, you can beat any pro out there, without any strategy or decision involved. I'd like to be able to select a bo and alt-tab and see the game evvolve. You'd be able to focus on strategy and decisions, then, when to move out, where to position your army-groups...
So, how do you manage that automatically kiting and splitting marines actually get to a position and stay there when you want it? Because the moment they see a unit, your whole moveout is going to be backwards running marines.
I understand what you mean, but
a) there is a certain beauty in microing units. Not only mechanically, but also the decisions are beautiful and meaningful. Blinking all your stalkers forward to kill a tank, or blinking them 1 by 1. Or blinking them all at once to get the hell out of there. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
b) it is not realistically implementable. As I claim above, how does the AI differentiate between 1 baneling and 50 and when it has to split? Well, you can program that. Which is a decision making process that you give in the hands of the AI. Does it still just amove against 10banelings? Even if you only have 10marines?
You see, you'd have to basically program it out very well... which means you just optimize a program that plays the whole game for you with your decisions. Eventually, the program will be perfect. That's it, game solved.
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THANK YOU SO MUCH
For writing this post.
I am also 18+ times Masters player who has simply stopped playing ranked for the reasons you described.
For me the worst offender apart from hackers which are rampant in the higher leagues is the ridiculous MMR decay and the shrinkage of the Masters league, which seemed to have been implemented purely for the sake of WCS.
I do not play a lot, therefore it is inevitable that I will suffer MMR decay. This means that unless I fully commit one season I am more than likely demoted. (I have been demoted to Platinum once). Now what does that mean:
a) In no shape or form am I a platinum player. So in order for me to go back to Masters I need to stomp through the plats and low/mid diamonds.
b) Complete bullshit and unfair for the real low/mid diamonds and platinums.
c) I am also facing other ex-Masters player with lowered MMR and so we are essentially fighting master league level games in low diamond MMR. Making our progress even slower.
d) Takes ages for me to be promoted to Masters (I have been in Masters for a total of 19 times on NA (4 times) and EU (15+ times) Server. This isn't even an issue for me personally, Masters is a guarantee (as I retook it once or twice) but the amount of times I have to play is ridiculous (50 games+). And I play Mech Terran so each game is over 40 minutes long, sometimes over an hour.
e) Even when I do get my Masters icon back, I need to consistently be playing in order to not get demoted again after a season. As if I will lose skill, which just isn't the case for players who already have proved themselves by reaching Master league on multiple occassions. At one point I believe it took me approximately 75 games with a win ratio of 60%+ to get it back.
f) Eventually I've given up on ranked and just played unranked which means once again I am stomping lesser players siince I do not play enough to keep my MMR at a stable level. At least now I don't have to reach a goal any more.
TLDR version: MMR Decay is too much and fucks over all players.
PS: Looks like MarlieChurphy is in the same exact situation as I am.
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Blizzard has the obligation to satisfy their customers to keep us to be loyal customers, as an organization blizzard already makes enough money and reworking their ladder may requires a budget to keep a small amount of the population who play sc2 satisfy.
The main reason why you are diamond because low level player quits this game and so you are in diamond league. It is reasonable seeing how every season the population of this game gets smaller and smaller, not to mention a person may have multiple accounts in master or gm league.
If you really deserve master league or even higher, you have to practice and learn from your mistakes instead of blaming of hackers or the ladder distribution.
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On January 17 2015 22:23 plgElwood wrote:
2010:
Bronze: You did not attack your own structures ! Great !
Silver: You got to 100 o Supply once ! Great !
Gold: You now know how2 4Gate. Great !
Platinum: Actuall Micro/Macro + 2 BO/MU
Diamond: So you played BW huh? IdraIdraIdra
2014:
All stepped up. Even Bronzes now know what a BO is.
Newcomers who watch their workers for 5 minutes get a high5, in the face, with a shovel. Back to Campaign it is.
If not anything else, this should make people who make it to gold/platinum/diamond, and all the 'omg ur so bad that ur only diamond' ranks, more proud of their achievement. I mean before, you had a rank named after the most valuable compressed-carbon substance in the world, and it was equated with shit. Maybe it's time to be okay with diamond.
In StarCraft: Brood War, many very low-ranked people have an idea of what build orders are. Both games have the aspect of being competitive, and it's the same with everything. You can't just sit on your ass through all of your school years then walk out onto a football field and play, because you're gonna suck. The campaign is basically you kicking the ball around in your own backyard.
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On January 18 2015 05:28 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 22:23 plgElwood wrote:
2010:
Bronze: You did not attack your own structures ! Great !
Silver: You got to 100 o Supply once ! Great !
Gold: You now know how2 4Gate. Great !
Platinum: Actuall Micro/Macro + 2 BO/MU
Diamond: So you played BW huh? IdraIdraIdra
2014:
All stepped up. Even Bronzes now know what a BO is.
Newcomers who watch their workers for 5 minutes get a high5, in the face, with a shovel. Back to Campaign it is. If not anything else, this should make people who make it to gold/platinum/diamond, and all the 'omg ur so bad that ur only diamond' ranks, more proud of their achievement. I mean before, you had a rank named after the most valuable compressed-carbon substance in the world, and it was equated with shit. Maybe it's time to be okay with diamond. In StarCraft: Brood War, many very low-ranked people have an idea of what build orders are. Both games have the aspect of being competitive, and it's the same with everything. You can't just sit on your ass through all of your school years then walk out onto a football field and play, because you're gonna suck. The campaign is basically you kicking the ball around in your own backyard.
Yep, over time SC2 bnet is going to look more and more like ICCup, and that's a good thing.
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On January 18 2015 05:28 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 22:23 plgElwood wrote:
2010:
Bronze: You did not attack your own structures ! Great !
Silver: You got to 100 o Supply once ! Great !
Gold: You now know how2 4Gate. Great !
Platinum: Actuall Micro/Macro + 2 BO/MU
Diamond: So you played BW huh? IdraIdraIdra
2014:
All stepped up. Even Bronzes now know what a BO is.
Newcomers who watch their workers for 5 minutes get a high5, in the face, with a shovel. Back to Campaign it is. If not anything else, this should make people who make it to gold/platinum/diamond, and all the 'omg ur so bad that ur only diamond' ranks, more proud of their achievement. I mean before, you had a rank named after the most valuable compressed-carbon substance in the world, and it was equated with shit. Maybe it's time to be okay with diamond. In StarCraft: Brood War, many very low-ranked people have an idea of what build orders are. Both games have the aspect of being competitive, and it's the same with everything. You can't just sit on your ass through all of your school years then walk out onto a football field and play, because you're gonna suck. The campaign is basically you kicking the ball around in your own backyard.
True true. Though with the reasoning given, one would expect football to go extinct. But it doesn't because there are tons of organizations catering to the younglings.
In sports, even for the 10th most popular sport in your country you are going to find a club in a bigger city. In Starcraft, even without the regional requirement to actually come together, it is pretty hard to train in a fitting enviroment as a scrub.
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On January 18 2015 00:37 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 00:33 StatixEx wrote:
ye i feel this way all the time, i play hundreds of games . . hundreds of them and i dont get promoted, they always seem to have more stuff, i feel my games consistent i win some i lose some . i do believe i am getting better but the the thing is i am not getting that promotion. the thing is the ladder might be broken in itself in terms of where you place but i dont think the mmr is. i dont care personally that im in such a league, as long as the game is challenging enough and i can seriously understand and make up some excuse that on how i lost.
anyways, i still think its broken i deserve to be in silver at least Sorry mate, Silver and Bronze are just Mathematically uneffected by Hacking... you will just have to improve your Game. Edit: sorry about the german Grammar... sometimes its really hard to stop writing nouns in Capital Letters...
Mathematically isn't a noun. 
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I think the MMR system is actually one of the things blizzard got right in this game. I do think the whole divisions thing for non-GM leagues is silly. Blizzard most likely will never crack down on the hacks/exploit issues though :c
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On January 17 2015 21:56 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 16:42 Gamegene wrote:
you're blaming the ladder for not getting GM? cmon man. It's GGZerg. Everybody's a hacker and it's all a big consipiracy and he's the smartest guy ever on TeamLiquid.
It's very unironic considering this is the attitude of most ladder heroes and ESPECIALLY those who stream ladder but do not actually compete (ie: avilo, various casters who shall not be named).
Mass fucking excuses for everything. I think people could take a fucking hint from the smash community who don't have the luxury of an online ladder: "no johns".
edit: actually i guess avilo does participate in qualifiers, but most of his activity/notoriety centers around his ladder stream.
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On January 18 2015 06:47 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 00:37 alpenrahm wrote:On January 18 2015 00:33 StatixEx wrote:
ye i feel this way all the time, i play hundreds of games . . hundreds of them and i dont get promoted, they always seem to have more stuff, i feel my games consistent i win some i lose some . i do believe i am getting better but the the thing is i am not getting that promotion. the thing is the ladder might be broken in itself in terms of where you place but i dont think the mmr is. i dont care personally that im in such a league, as long as the game is challenging enough and i can seriously understand and make up some excuse that on how i lost.
anyways, i still think its broken i deserve to be in silver at least Sorry mate, Silver and Bronze are just Mathematically uneffected by Hacking... you will just have to improve your Game. Edit: sorry about the german Grammar... sometimes its really hard to stop writing nouns in Capital Letters... Mathematically isn't a noun.
Totally True ... I Will Just Revert To Using Capitals All The Way Because Thats Way More Convinient And Much Less Confusing Unlike That Bullshit mathematical grammar.
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On January 18 2015 06:58 FXOTheoRy wrote:
I think the MMR system is actually one of the things blizzard got right in this game. I do think the whole divisions thing for non-GM leagues is silly. Blizzard most likely will never crack down on the hacks/exploit issues though :c
I think it would be pretty cool if the division actuallly were filled with people i knew. Every time i get someone from my fl in my 1v1 division there s some hefty rivalry going on. And damn points matter.
On January 18 2015 07:03 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 21:56 pigmanbear wrote:On January 17 2015 16:42 Gamegene wrote:
you're blaming the ladder for not getting GM? cmon man. It's GGZerg. Everybody's a hacker and it's all a big consipiracy and he's the smartest guy ever on TeamLiquid. It's very unironic considering this is the attitude of most ladder heroes and ESPECIALLY those who stream ladder but do not actually compete (ie: avilo, various casters who shall not be named). Mass fucking excuses for everything. I think people could take a fucking hint from the smash community who don't have the luxury of an online ladder: "no johns". edit: actually i guess avilo does participate in qualifiers, but most of his activity/notoriety centers around his ladder stream.
Avilo is just participating to make himself look a legit contender. The fact that he didn´t get a spot tho is a lot more telling.
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I think a lot of you are missing the point I was trying to make and I apologize for making this sound like this is all about me not being able to get into GM, I don't think I am GM level yet but I also think all the ex GM level players I beat were not GM level either....
The point I was trying to make is that the way the ladder system works, it is extremely hard to even attempt to get to promoted to GM with how unforgiving the ladder system treats only certain players, it is not delegating the same point system to every single player it seems.
There is only 1 week to move up in rank to get promoted to GM, and it seems nearly impossible when you go on a great winning streak and go for example...
Win +4 , Win +4 , Win +6 , Win +8, and then you face a barcode hacker 3 times in a row and lose 3 games....
-21 , -18 , -12... at this point I start to tilt and am extremely angry after watching the replays and realizing this person never scouted, hard countered everything perfectly and obviously hacked. Begins the slump. Lose a few more games because you are now not thinking correctly...
-12, -16... Manage to pick yourself up, win two more games...+8, +4...
Play a few more games and you lose two... -12, -18
At this point, you were promoted to Masters, but the system is making it extremely difficult to ever get promoted to Grand Masters, but I don't think that the system makes it so difficult for every single player. There are so many bad players in GM on NA server, it is not a good 'indicator of skill '.
The ladder system was not even working properly last season so I don't know why anyone would defend it lol, there was a defecit in the amount of players and that is why Masters league was only top 1% of players , that's why last season we had so many Diamonds in Masters, and so many Masters in Diamond, and so many of the leagues that were not properly balanced.
The ultimate point I was trying to make is that the point distribution and ladder system seems flawed, whether or not I am good enough to get into GM is not really the point I was trying to make, even though I do feel good enough.
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you keep on coming back to losing to hackers. I think that's the core of the problem, not the system.
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Can't do a long post on my phone but ladder has been broken for a long time now. It's one of the reasons why people don't play as much anymore and we have this "dead game" scenario. The fact that Blizzard doesn't even bother addressing them shows how little they care for us. A Reddit poster mentioned that even the Twitter account is rarely active compared to other Blizzard games.
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On January 18 2015 08:31 Big J wrote:
you keep on coming back to losing to hackers. I think that's the core of the problem, not the system.
Even if you are losing to hackers, the point system also seems flawed...
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On January 18 2015 07:11 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 06:47 Cascade wrote:On January 18 2015 00:37 alpenrahm wrote:On January 18 2015 00:33 StatixEx wrote:
ye i feel this way all the time, i play hundreds of games . . hundreds of them and i dont get promoted, they always seem to have more stuff, i feel my games consistent i win some i lose some . i do believe i am getting better but the the thing is i am not getting that promotion. the thing is the ladder might be broken in itself in terms of where you place but i dont think the mmr is. i dont care personally that im in such a league, as long as the game is challenging enough and i can seriously understand and make up some excuse that on how i lost.
anyways, i still think its broken i deserve to be in silver at least Sorry mate, Silver and Bronze are just Mathematically uneffected by Hacking... you will just have to improve your Game. Edit: sorry about the german Grammar... sometimes its really hard to stop writing nouns in Capital Letters... Mathematically isn't a noun. Totally True ... I Will Just Revert To Using Capitals All The Way Because Thats Way More Convinient And Much Less Confusing Unlike That Bullshit mathematical grammar.
You didnt capitalise "mathemical" and "grammar".
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Only a 3rd Party Bnet will resolve these issues. Everything else wount be changed.
Play unranked. You get the same enemys, but you dont care about points. I dont know how to solve the issues else.
Blizzard does not care at all. Why do I say this?
Look a Dota or LoL: how many maphackers are there? Nearly zero. Why?
Because the client does not know what is behind the fog of war. In SC II since WoL Beta the client of each player knows the whole map and just fogs it. Easiest to hack, just extract the informations, you client allready has from the server. Same for the production tab hack. They just extract the informations out of their clients, because this really bad netcode sends them the whole information about their enemy. And you even do not need these informations. Blizzard knows this since brood war or at least since the "ban waves" in wc3 times. But they never cared and continued with this bad netcode and clientsystem.
And why do they? A guy who cant hack would not play their game. A Hacker that gets banned, buys the game twice. More profit. They would serious engange their bad netcode and tune up their anticheat, if they wouldnt think that it hurts their income.
The problem with the MMR and the pointsystem will only be solved via external battlenets. I hope they will come fast, otherwise this game dies.
We see clearly, that blizzard doesnt even understand these demands. Wooohooo they get automated tournaments as a BRAND NEW BATTLENET FEATURE for LotV. Hey this BRAND NEW BATTLENET FEATURE... i saw it somewhere, oh year, in WC3 tft 12 years ago.
Serious. This game will not survive without non blizzard multiplayersystems. Broodwar needed ICcup, Fish and Co. Wc III needed WC III Arena. SC II will need its own thing. And better fast, because the status quo will be the status dead.
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On January 18 2015 05:47 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 05:28 ninazerg wrote:On January 17 2015 22:23 plgElwood wrote:
2010:
Bronze: You did not attack your own structures ! Great !
Silver: You got to 100 o Supply once ! Great !
Gold: You now know how2 4Gate. Great !
Platinum: Actuall Micro/Macro + 2 BO/MU
Diamond: So you played BW huh? IdraIdraIdra
2014:
All stepped up. Even Bronzes now know what a BO is.
Newcomers who watch their workers for 5 minutes get a high5, in the face, with a shovel. Back to Campaign it is. If not anything else, this should make people who make it to gold/platinum/diamond, and all the 'omg ur so bad that ur only diamond' ranks, more proud of their achievement. I mean before, you had a rank named after the most valuable compressed-carbon substance in the world, and it was equated with shit. Maybe it's time to be okay with diamond. In StarCraft: Brood War, many very low-ranked people have an idea of what build orders are. Both games have the aspect of being competitive, and it's the same with everything. You can't just sit on your ass through all of your school years then walk out onto a football field and play, because you're gonna suck. The campaign is basically you kicking the ball around in your own backyard. Yep, over time SC2 bnet is going to look more and more like ICCup, and that's a good thing.
You mean empty and virtually vacant, or are you referring to the ranking system? Because, if you don't know, a bunch of Brood War nerds were crying for a match-making system "like sc2". The irony is that now sc2 people want a ladder like iCCup. It just seems like the same shit on both sides of the fence: noobs are losing games, and decide to blame the system for not winning.
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The grass is greener on the other side.
Or, in a more contemporary formulations, haters gonna hate.
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Actually the match making algorithm works very well, I like it a lot.
The ranking system (hidden MMR and stuff) lacks a lot of things for sure. Just show the player's MMR and make a real ladder like it's done for Warcraft 3 (http://classic.battle.net/war3/ladder/w3xp-ladder-solo.aspx?Gateway=Northrend). That's it.
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EPT
