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Also want to point out something.
I don't play as much anymore, but GGZerg knows me and knows I'm a master player and can hang with the best of them as far as foreign players.
However, whenever a season restarts and I do my placement it throws me into silver or gold or something random at the lower ranks. I end up going anywhere from 10-30 straight wins before I'm even put into platinum, where I have to start climbing very slowly. This applies for both 2v2 and 1v1.
It's honestly a waste of time and it sucks for the lesser skilled players in my games when they want an evenly matched system as well. In order to try and save time I just resort to rushes and 2 base timings to end games quickly because I know regardless if it's a macro game or not it's going to take me 50+ games to even get close to my real ranking.
I believe there are 2 factors at work here. 1 the ladder integrity is shit because of the fact that casual mode and ladder mode can be matched together in the same game. One person is playing for points and the other isn't. People try to say it doesn't matter or it's fair or whatever, but I know that it's not. You don't let people play on a ladder when they aren't playing for anything, intuitively it's just bad and morally or honorably or whatever you want to call it, it's just wrong. It fucks with the ladder, I'm sure of it. (Especially in team games, people just leave a game instead of trying to win.)
The other is the MMR decay bullshit. There is something seriously wrong with it, it's caused me to decay into lower leagues so far. And since I don't play 10+ games every day, it resets all the time or something. And since I don't grind a shit ton of games like Telecom does, that means I get career summaries filled with platinum, gold, diamond, or just whatever purely based on the amount of games I decided to play that season. It's not indicative of my skill level whatsoever. So really, the metal ranks are completely arbitrary and useless. Kyo, even you were judging me before and after the LOTV games we played simply because of the fact that my portrait icon had a gold border or whatever.
IMHO, I should be able to challenge the ladder. Like each season have the option to play 3-5 matches versus people in a metal league of my choice (which would be 1-2 above yours at the least). And if I can win the majority of these games, I should automatically be promoted to that league.
PS- I can also tell that many of the people in 2v2 mode that I play who are ranked gold or whatever are not really silver or gold players. They have good macro and high apm to where I know they should be at least platinum or diamond. The system is really fucky. There seems to be at least 30-40% players who are clearly misranked and then the rest are right where they should be.
TBH, Maybe sc2 should just get rid of the ladder all together. BW did fine without it, people who were hardcore enough just made their own ladder systems which worked better and were more maintained as far as hacks and updates.
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9x Master player here. Having gotten KR, EU and NA Master, my experience is that you need to be playing and beating GMs in order to get a promotion to Master. It's ridiculous.
To get promoted to Master I needed to be Rank 1 Diamond on the whole server by a significant margin with a 60% winrate and playing/beating GMs. How is this a good system?
Master has only gotten smaller since then too. It's literally half the size it was intended to be.
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On January 17 2015 16:31 GGzerG wrote:
EDIT : It seems like you really like to mention the fact you are GM, and I don't really think it is relevant now to be honest.
Quoted for extreme irony.
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It's funny, people are always asking why there are no good foreigners. Maybe it's because instead of working hard to get to GM, foreigners just whine that the system is flawed and that they deserve to be GM. I mean, oh my god, you have to beat people who are good to get to Master's League? The horror.
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It's almost as if you could practice and get better instead of writing long, whiny posts about how life isn't fair.
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On January 17 2015 19:05 ninazerg wrote:
It's funny, people are always asking why there are no good foreigners. Maybe it's because instead of working hard to get to GM, foreigners just whine that the system is flawed and that they deserve to be GM. I mean, oh my god, you have to beat people who are good to get to Master's League? The horror.
GM from today is not the same as 2 yrs ago. It was great and now a big disaster. Being in GM feels very unrewarding and so wrong. I wish they remove GM.
Most "new" people quit this game or play 90% less few days after promoting to GM. The only one pleasure in GM is the chance to play vs superstars. Nothing else.
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Seriously, why don't they just rank people based on pure MMR?
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On January 17 2015 19:36 Korakys wrote:
Seriously, why don't they just rank people based on pure MMR?
Amen.
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On January 17 2015 18:50 RPR_Tempest wrote:
9x Master player here. Having gotten KR, EU and NA Master, my experience is that you need to be playing and beating GMs in order to get a promotion to Master. It's ridiculous.
To get promoted to Master I needed to be Rank 1 Diamond on the whole server by a significant margin with a 60% winrate and playing/beating GMs. How is this a good system?
Master has only gotten smaller since then too. It's literally half the size it was intended to be.
Not really. If you're in diamond and playing GMs, they're either boosted accounts or playing unranked (which is dumb, I agree), or if they're "legit low GMs" playing ranked, you get like -1 or -2 to the point that it doesn't hurt you at all losing to them. I've been laddering on a smurf for a while as a random lately, and slowly got it promoted from diamond to master, so I know what I'm talking about. Never played a single GM. Playing masters 50% of the times and winning 50% of the times against them is enough. Plus I'm a high master (~1700 pts last season) on EU as protoss and even then I play against diamond like 1 game out of 20, and get +2/+3 points at best.
If you are GM, you aren't expected to lose to a top diamond player more than 1 game out of 10-20 anyway, which is fair.
It's funny though, that every time I talk with diamond league players, they say "look! I beat a top master player and I don't get promoted! Ladder is broken!!!" then I look at that account, and it's like rank 10 in a shitty division with the same amount of points as the bonus pool available. Yeah, top master...
Master league right now is 5x smaller than what it was back in the day. In 2012/2013, it was impossible for a legit top diamond to even play a legit low GM on ladder. Now it is, although very very rare.
Having to get rank 1 in the whole server is perfectly normal because if you can't achieve it, then there's someone higher than you who wasn't promoted, so it would be wrong if you got promoted before them.
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On January 17 2015 20:03 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 18:50 RPR_Tempest wrote:
9x Master player here. Having gotten KR, EU and NA Master, my experience is that you need to be playing and beating GMs in order to get a promotion to Master. It's ridiculous.
To get promoted to Master I needed to be Rank 1 Diamond on the whole server by a significant margin with a 60% winrate and playing/beating GMs. How is this a good system?
Master has only gotten smaller since then too. It's literally half the size it was intended to be. Not really. If you're in diamond and playing GMs, they're either boosted accounts or playing unranked (which is dumb, I agree), or if they're "legit low GMs" playing ranked, you get like -1 or -2 to the point that it doesn't hurt you at all losing to them. I've been laddering on a smurf for a while as a random lately, and slowly got it promoted from diamond to master, so I know what I'm talking about. Never played a single GM. Playing masters 50% of the times and winning 50% of the times against them is enough. Plus I'm a high master (~1700 pts last season) on EU as protoss and even then I play against diamond like 1 game out of 20, and get +2/+3 points at best. If you are GM, you aren't expected to lose to a top diamond player more than 1 game out of 10-20 anyway, which is fair. It's funny though, that every time I talk with diamond league players, they say "look! I beat a top master player and I don't get promoted! Ladder is broken!!!" then I look at that account, and it's like rank 10 in a shitty division with the same amount of points as the bonus pool available. Yeah, top master... Master league right now is 5x smaller than what it was back in the day. In 2012/2013, it was impossible for a legit top diamond to even play a legit low GM on ladder. Now it is, although very very rare. Having to get rank 1 in the whole server is perfectly normal because if you can't achieve it, then there's someone higher than you who wasn't promoted, so it would be wrong if you got promoted before them.
Thats very interesting and a good one, i havent played for years now. I dont ever remember playing a diamond player when i was in GM and almost never lost to a master player.
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On January 17 2015 18:07 Luolis wrote:
I agree with you on the hacker part. However the only explanation to you not being GM is prolly because youre not GM-level. The ladder system might seem sadistic as fuck in some ways, but if youre good enough you should be gm.
But if half of GM is infested by cheaters then Players who deserve it dont get GM logic...... Cause cheaters have always better record ......
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1) The ladder system works VERY well. You get matches with more or less equally skilled opponents, usually in less than a minute (unless you're top GM).
2) That your ranking doesn't reflect your own perceived skill level, is a problem we all face :D.
3) Cheaters are there, but probably not as many as you think... the number of times I've been accused of "hacking" by Protoss players just because I build 3 turrets in my main hard countering their oh so predictiable Oracle and DT timings...
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I'd pay money for a rework, because thats the only way we could get it. I want hacking to be a non-issue. Everything else can be tweaked via the current system, but the hacking is what gets me the most.
Even if there aren't that many hackers out there, the fact that they are there and it takes ages to ban them is a problem. It destroys SC2 as a game AND as a legit eSports.
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I think that a big problem here is that many people posting don't understand the ladder well enough. Here is an example that I want to quote.
Last season I was stuck in Diamond, played almost 800 games and towards the end of the season I was playing ONLY GM / Masters players, still not getting promoted.
So, promotion system depends a lot on adjusted points, aka your points minus the spent bonus pool.
When you just got promoted, you have +73 adjusted points. Which usually means that if your adjusted points are <+73 and you are active in league X, you're " low X ". For >+73 adjusted points, it depends from many factors.
Luckily we have a wonderful website called nios.kr where you can easily check how many adjusted points you need to be close to promotion.
If you played 800 games and don't get promoted to master, clearly you're not good enough. If you're MMR decayed, there's that terrible thing where you get +6/-18 every single game or something like that. But it's ok, because you are decayed so you are playing against worse opponents. If you really belong in master league, you should go into a 50 games winning streak (which is still too much, but not even close to 800) that would get you in the +300~+400 adjusted points range and get back into master.
If you're low master, then you will lose quite a few games especially when top diamond, so this number can easily increase. However you shouldn't think about getting GM if you're low master so this isn't important.
Being diamond with 800 games and playing only masters/GMs, is impossible, at least in my EU/NA experience.
When I got promoted to Masters it placed me at rank 18, 130-137 points or so. I continued to win but after being promoted only receiving +4 / +8 points a game, so I continued to win 2-3 games , +4 , +8, +4. Then I lost the next two-three games. The next two games the amount of points I lost is ridiculous. -18,-21,-16, and so on. Even when I have an above 50% W/L ratio (Which the ladder system attempts to force upon every player) , the point distribution does not seem to be fair at all. And now from 130-137 points , I am now sitting at 30 points (LOL) , Because of the poor point distribution, even when I am above 50% W/L ratio. Please do not reply saying " Well just keep playing , the point distribution will level out", AND THEN WHAT? Another Season I cannot get GM because the ladder point distribution is broken?
Take 2 players who get placed in master league at the beginning of a season. One was top 16 GM last season, and one was a low-mid master player who miraculously didn't get demoted into diamond. Both play 50 games and win half of them. What's gonna happen?
The top 16 GM player will have something like 400 adjusted points. Why? Because ladder distribution is broken? No, because he has a higher MMR but 0 adjusted points so the system tries to fix that by making him go +20/-4 against even opponents.
The low master player will have still 0 adjusted points. Why? Because ladder points distribution is broken? No, because his mmr is very low, and he deserves to have 0 adjusted points.
What does the winrate of a player tell you? If a player has a positive/negative winrate this season, then probably it means that his MMR increased/decreased. It still doesn't tell you anything about the MMR he has now.
So, it appears that your problem is that you're low master, and the ladder is working as intended in this case.
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On January 17 2015 20:50 KeksX wrote:
I'd pay money for a rework, because thats the only way we could get it. I want hacking to be a non-issue. Everything else can be tweaked via the current system, but the hacking is what gets me the most.
Even if there aren't that many hackers out there, the fact that they are there and it takes ages to ban them is a problem. It destroys SC2 as a game AND as a legit eSports.
yeah, but I fail to see how this is a ladder issue. Blizzard runs their cheat-detection on the current ladder. Changing the ladder doesn't change their anti-cheat system.
I think blizzard's approach against cheating is reasonable, though obviously slow. After all, I'm not an programming expert but I imagine it is extremely difficult to consistently detect every-chaning hack software. And the more obvious you work against it - like banning the people very fast - the faster the software is probably going to be optimized to not be detected.
Also it is not just a blizzard problem. It's first and foremost a problem of a community that seems to breed idiots.
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Is this really a thread for you to whine about not making GM? As others have said, it appears the ladder is working in your case. I suggest just playing more, not worrying about what league you are placed in, and get better.
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Well their main issue is that they trust their client on issues that should be on serverside. Take the "RESULTS DISAGREE" thing. That shows how bad their practice really is.
Usually it should be like this:
One client disconnects
Server recognizes disconnect, assigns win to other client
But in Blizzard's code apparently it is like this:
One client disconnects
Server recognizes disconnect, ends game
Both clients send win
Server things "well wtf this can't be" and we get "RESULTS DISAGREE"
I think that it is a ladder issue because in custom games, servers are hosted via players and these kind of things don't happen. I never had "RESULTS DISAGREE" or anything similar in a custom game, just ladder.
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-MapHacking
-Production Hacks
-Resolution Hacks( This is a hack that gives the player a larger more zoomed out screen, he can see more of the screen than normal, like the Blizzard Observer Mode IN GAME., I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM.)
-Blink Hack (Automatically blinks stalkers for the player, giving protoss huge micro management advantage)
-Auto Inject Hack (Automatically injects queens for you, is pretty easy to notice, if the Zerg player has NO EXTRA energy on his queens ALL GAME.)
Never understood really why all these aren't actually built into the game. All this dumb mechanical stuff is like "fightning-the-controls", isn't it? Why can't marines split automatically? Why do banelings roll into Marauders when Marines are around?
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On January 17 2015 21:35 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +-MapHacking
-Production Hacks
-Resolution Hacks( This is a hack that gives the player a larger more zoomed out screen, he can see more of the screen than normal, like the Blizzard Observer Mode IN GAME., I do have replays to prove this and will post them when I get home, I am at work ATM.)
-Blink Hack (Automatically blinks stalkers for the player, giving protoss huge micro management advantage)
-Auto Inject Hack (Automatically injects queens for you, is pretty easy to notice, if the Zerg player has NO EXTRA energy on his queens ALL GAME.) Never understood really why all these aren't actually built into the game. All this dumb mechanical stuff is like "fightning-the-controls", isn't it? Why can't marines split automatically? Why do banelings roll into Marauders when Marines are around?
why do i have to remember and execute BOs if AI could just do them itself without bothering me???
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I think you should be able to choose what level you want to play against when doing placement.
So for example if you feel rusty and were masters last season, just choose to get matched with diamond.
In your case you´re just too inconsistent, loosing against lesser players but winning against higher ranked ones. And also i think if you are "veteran" in your division, mmr seems to throw more up-and-coming players at you, who are often smurfs and sometimes hackers
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EPT
