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On December 01 2014 06:52 SoulmaN__ wrote:
One thing I'd like to discuss a little more about:
Do your really think a change to the mappool will completely balance out the vs.T matchups?
Because I honestly think that the amount of openers Terran can do in TvZ has nothing to do with map balance, and I also think widow mines are so strong against Protoss that, even if a map would be horrible for drops and good for Zealot templar openings, it wouldn't matter, they would still be murdered.
Opinions? Something else than "Wait and see" would be nice...
According to the stats on page 4, TvP is already at 50% on 3 out of the 7 tournament maps. For sure different maps could make protoss even favored!
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I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
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On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure.
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On December 01 2014 07:20 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure.
yea Pro's career depends on this, so P and Z might say T is imbalanced
If Koreans terrans also say Terran is more powerful than P or Z...well maybe it might be true lol
hmmm so Season 3, the top 4 players of each WCS region x 3 regions (KR, EU, NA) = 7/12 are Terrans which isnt too unbalanced
this past season Terrans won WCS KR, WCS NA, and WCS EU, lets see of that trend continues before doing anything drastic...
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On December 01 2014 05:21 SoulmaN__ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 05:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 01 2014 04:58 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 04:55 DJHelium wrote:
What are the stats for the latest say 3 months?
And I feel the maps are a big part of it, especially Nimbus, Catallena and Merry Go Round. Cool to see some stats backing it up! I gathered the stats for the last 4 months. What is your reason for collecting the stats? From your responses I mostly sense frustration and a wish to see Terran nerfed. Yes, but I also want to raise awareness about this. Terran players always seem to feel like victims when it comes to starcraft 2 balance, and this is simply here to show them that it's not always bad for them. And of course, I wanna see Terran nerfed. These kinds of stats in a sample size of 300+ games are unacceptable.
Excuse me very much, firstly, the term whiner is stupid, non-appropriate, hypocritical and popularistic.
And raise awareness for what? A situation we already know of and can explain?
Your poor choice of hyperbole and the blatant lack of discussions and conclusions in the OP makes your intentions and unbiasedness (which you should be aiming for when presenting statistics) very questionable at best.
Secondly, you ignore ALL of the posts explaining why these statistics might actually be acceptable considering the past and the current state of balance combined with a set of maps made for Terran doing well.
Asking for a nerf because of a very flawed statistic of approx. 300 games without considering all other factors people have pointed out to you is nothing more but a (poorly) conceiled whine (to put it in your own terms).
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On December 01 2014 06:36 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 05:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 01 2014 04:58 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 04:55 DJHelium wrote:
What are the stats for the latest say 3 months?
And I feel the maps are a big part of it, especially Nimbus, Catallena and Merry Go Round. Cool to see some stats backing it up! I gathered the stats for the last 4 months. What is your reason for collecting the stats? From your responses I mostly sense frustration and a wish to see Terran nerfed. Funny. From your responses, I see only a wish to not see Terran nerfed. See, that argument can go both ways. One has to be extremely biased at this point not to see that Terran is too strong, especially vs. Protoss.
Funny, from your response, I only see a wish to see Terran nerfed.
See, that argument can go both ways.
One has to be extremely biased at this point not to see there is a number of good explanations for why Terran has high winrates.
Ok. Serious now.
Firstly, stats favor TvP over TvZ, so that ends your last comment and probably also gives away your favored race.
Let me start by mentioning I've been playing Random exclusively since before Hots. I know the matchups. I wish to not see Terran get shafted again as a result of poorly disguised whine and missinterpretation/forging of statistics. There's a number of reasons mentioned already: maps are and important factor; a recent patch; tournaments stabilizing; Terran recently having develloped a new playstyle which relies on intense dropping which both Z and P haven't had the time yet to figure out.
Asking for a nerf at this stage is beyond comprehension, complwtely unwarranted. If you think that way, I can do nothing but suggest you got spoiled too much in the first two thirds of the year and are now frustrated when you can't win games you weren't supposed to in the first place.
Edit: sorry, I recalled the stats wrong. Ignore that sentence.
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On December 01 2014 07:20 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure.
Rain complained about TvP being more imbalanced in Terrans favor than Broodlord Infestor era. Meanwhile, 60% wins for P > T and 3 Terrans in the next months.
Pro opinions are probably the most unreliable determination of balance.
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A single pros opinion is usually not worth much, but when pros of other races all complain about the same race, you got something there.
But yea, tournaments should have swapped maps already at least.
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On December 01 2014 03:19 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
The thread is doing better than expected, honestly. Most people recognize that the path that makes sense involves doing nothing and changing the maps. You would think that's obvious, but history tells us it's not. That's really an awful idea. Sc2 has massive restrictions on map design as it is, we don't need more.
You're arguing as if the map pool we have here is unrestricted, and I'm adding restrictions. I would say it's the opposite. The map pool that we have now is mostly designed to help terran. We need to remove that restriction.
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On December 01 2014 08:10 sibs wrote:
A single pros opinion is usually not worth much, but when pros of other races all complain about the same race, you got something there.
But yea, tournaments should have swapped maps already at least.
Without changing maps there is no useful conclusion to be drawn.
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This thread deserves to be closed. Everyone knows what this is coming to again and nothing is to be gained from this discussion.
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On December 01 2014 04:25 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 04:12 Taronar wrote:On December 01 2014 04:06 TheWinks wrote:
Win rates aren't everything. True, but the same inbalance from before this patch (P wins everything) now shows in T. I haven't really played a lot this season but as a P myself I am having an awful time against Terrans where I would crush them before. The winrates show the same differentation and the state of T is just not where it should be right now... The imbalance that existed for T included only 3 and 4 terrans in Code S. Last season there were still 16 protoss in Code S.
Yes, but the Code A that got 16 Protoss into Code S was on the Season 3 map pool before the widow mine patch. Judging by how Code S went, it seems reasonable to say the patch did more than the map pool.
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On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote:I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons.
Bullshit.
NOBODY "easily" makes Code S and I doubt any of the afore mentioned could qualify regularly. Sure, if they were all in Korea, one of them would occasionally reach the Ro16...but that's it.
There are no Korean's in Code S that any foreigner would be favoured against. Have a great chance against? Absolutely, but there's no foreigner who would be likely to get out of any GSL Ro32 group from this year.
Foreigners aren't as good as Korean's (though this is obviously not a genetic thing), so suck it up!
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On December 01 2014 07:29 mikumegurine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 07:20 DJHelium wrote:On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure. yea Pro's career depends on this, so P and Z might say T is imbalanced If Koreans terrans also say Terran is more powerful than P or Z...well maybe it might be true lol hmmm so Season 3, the top 4 players of each WCS region x 3 regions (KR, EU, NA) = 7/12 are Terrans which isnt too unbalanced this past season Terrans won WCS KR, WCS NA, and WCS EU, lets see of that trend continues before doing anything drastic...
and narrowly losing out of on Blizzcon as well. We all know how it would have gone if Taeja beat Life. Even a TvT finals.
And HSCX... Flash won that. PartinG's unreal micro gave him the victory.
good thread, thanks for putting in stats what many are saying and feeling.
On December 01 2014 09:39 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote:I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Bullshit. NOBODY "easily" makes Code S and I doubt any of the afore mentioned could qualify regularly. Sure, if they were all in Korea, one of them would occasionally reach the Ro16...but that's it. There are no Korean's in Code S that any foreigner would be favoured against. Have a great chance against? Absolutely, but there's no foreigner who would be likely to get out of any GSL Ro32 group from this year. Foreigners aren't as good as Korean's (though this is obviously not a genetic thing), so suck it up!
Naniwa would like to have a word with you.
He was close as anyone ever got to closing the gap to Koreans, at a time when SC2 was finally more explored and a shitton of good Koreans were on it to train like mad.
Nothing against Jinro who is a legend by himself, but I don't think those 2 runs in the GSL are comparable.
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On December 01 2014 09:49 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 07:29 mikumegurine wrote:On December 01 2014 07:20 DJHelium wrote:On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure. yea Pro's career depends on this, so P and Z might say T is imbalanced If Koreans terrans also say Terran is more powerful than P or Z...well maybe it might be true lol hmmm so Season 3, the top 4 players of each WCS region x 3 regions (KR, EU, NA) = 7/12 are Terrans which isnt too unbalanced this past season Terrans won WCS KR, WCS NA, and WCS EU, lets see of that trend continues before doing anything drastic... and narrowly losing out of on Blizzcon as well. We all know how it would have gone if Taeja beat Life. Even a TvT finals. And HSCX... Flash won that. PartinG's unreal micro gave him the victory..
Lol. Even when Terran loses, Terran wins. Astonishing logic.
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On December 01 2014 10:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 09:49 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 07:29 mikumegurine wrote:On December 01 2014 07:20 DJHelium wrote:On December 01 2014 07:16 HEADD wrote:
I dont know why ppl even discus here.
Top pro zergs like Soo, soulkey and others says TvZ is imbalanced in favor of terran at blizzcon.Smix says that in one of the HSCX interview.
San says terran is also OP in TvP.
I think pros have better skill than anyone on this forum and if they says terran is OP i think it is true.
Pros have a lot more personal gain in their race being imbalanced compared to us random forum scrubs. Wasn't it Rain that complained about terrans when protoss was doing really well? Or maybe it was at the start of the rise of terran, I can't remember for sure. yea Pro's career depends on this, so P and Z might say T is imbalanced If Koreans terrans also say Terran is more powerful than P or Z...well maybe it might be true lol hmmm so Season 3, the top 4 players of each WCS region x 3 regions (KR, EU, NA) = 7/12 are Terrans which isnt too unbalanced this past season Terrans won WCS KR, WCS NA, and WCS EU, lets see of that trend continues before doing anything drastic... and narrowly losing out of on Blizzcon as well. We all know how it would have gone if Taeja beat Life. Even a TvT finals. And HSCX... Flash won that. PartinG's unreal micro gave him the victory.. Lol. Even when Terran loses, Terran wins. Astonishing logic.
oh hi there mon cheri 
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On December 01 2014 09:49 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 09:39 althaz wrote:On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote:I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Bullshit. NOBODY "easily" makes Code S and I doubt any of the afore mentioned could qualify regularly. Sure, if they were all in Korea, one of them would occasionally reach the Ro16...but that's it. There are no Korean's in Code S that any foreigner would be favoured against. Have a great chance against? Absolutely, but there's no foreigner who would be likely to get out of any GSL Ro32 group from this year. Foreigners aren't as good as Korean's (though this is obviously not a genetic thing), so suck it up! Naniwa would like to have a word with you. He was close as anyone ever got to closing the gap to Koreans, at a time when SC2 was finally more explored and a shitton of good Koreans were on it to train like mad. Nothing against Jinro who is a legend by himself, but I don't think those 2 runs in the GSL are comparable.
Naniwa didn't make Code S, he was given a seed (he tried a bunch of times and failed, repeatedly getting knocked out in the first round of Code A, which he ALSO didn't qualify for but was granted seeds).
Naniwa was an amazing player who could take games off the top Korean's...but he couldn't consistently beat several of them in a row, which is why he never qualified for Code A or for Code S.
The only foreigners that have ever really showed that skill are Jinro (which was so early some discount his achievements), Stephano and Huk. Only Stephano played at the stupidly high level required to consistently beat top Korean's for more than a few months.
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so you dismiss Naniwa but mention HuK and Stephano? who got Code S seeds as well. ok then.
only one going through a Code A qualifier is Jinro( maybe IdrA? no idea should check on that). and as said it was in the early days and a superb performance, but not comparable to later ones.
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On December 01 2014 10:52 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 09:49 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 09:39 althaz wrote:On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote:I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Bullshit. NOBODY "easily" makes Code S and I doubt any of the afore mentioned could qualify regularly. Sure, if they were all in Korea, one of them would occasionally reach the Ro16...but that's it. There are no Korean's in Code S that any foreigner would be favoured against. Have a great chance against? Absolutely, but there's no foreigner who would be likely to get out of any GSL Ro32 group from this year. Foreigners aren't as good as Korean's (though this is obviously not a genetic thing), so suck it up! Naniwa would like to have a word with you. He was close as anyone ever got to closing the gap to Koreans, at a time when SC2 was finally more explored and a shitton of good Koreans were on it to train like mad. Nothing against Jinro who is a legend by himself, but I don't think those 2 runs in the GSL are comparable. Naniwa didn't make Code S, he was given a seed (he tried a bunch of times and failed, repeatedly getting knocked out in the first round of Code A, which he ALSO didn't qualify for but was granted seeds). Naniwa was an amazing player who could take games off the top Korean's...but he couldn't consistently beat several of them in a row, which is why he never qualified for Code A or for Code S. The only foreigners that have ever really showed that skill are Jinro (which was so early some discount his achievements), Stephano and Huk. Only Stephano played at the stupidly high level required to consistently beat top Korean's for more than a few months.
There is no universe in which Huk has the skill you're talking about here and Naniwa doesn't. Also you don't need to "consistently beat koreans" to qualify once. You're either too dismissive of what Naniwa did in Korea, or too impressed with what Huk and Stephano did in Korea; pick a side =)
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On December 01 2014 10:58 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 10:52 althaz wrote:On December 01 2014 09:49 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 09:39 althaz wrote:On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote:On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote:I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Bullshit. NOBODY "easily" makes Code S and I doubt any of the afore mentioned could qualify regularly. Sure, if they were all in Korea, one of them would occasionally reach the Ro16...but that's it. There are no Korean's in Code S that any foreigner would be favoured against. Have a great chance against? Absolutely, but there's no foreigner who would be likely to get out of any GSL Ro32 group from this year. Foreigners aren't as good as Korean's (though this is obviously not a genetic thing), so suck it up! Naniwa would like to have a word with you. He was close as anyone ever got to closing the gap to Koreans, at a time when SC2 was finally more explored and a shitton of good Koreans were on it to train like mad. Nothing against Jinro who is a legend by himself, but I don't think those 2 runs in the GSL are comparable. Naniwa didn't make Code S, he was given a seed (he tried a bunch of times and failed, repeatedly getting knocked out in the first round of Code A, which he ALSO didn't qualify for but was granted seeds). Naniwa was an amazing player who could take games off the top Korean's...but he couldn't consistently beat several of them in a row, which is why he never qualified for Code A or for Code S. The only foreigners that have ever really showed that skill are Jinro (which was so early some discount his achievements), Stephano and Huk. Only Stephano played at the stupidly high level required to consistently beat top Korean's for more than a few months. There is no universe in which Huk has the skill you're talking about here and Naniwa doesn't. Also you don't need to "consistently beat koreans" to qualify once. You're either too dismissive of what Naniwa did in Korea, or too impressed with what Huk and Stephano did in Korea; pick a side =)
this. for the record, they are all amazing players and show what foreigners are capable of. and to a certain degree I would put scarlett also in there, snute is close to but not quite yet on that list.
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EPT
