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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Groups are not made up evenly. There are situations in wich a player only has to prepare one matchup, while the others at least have two. Also the Skill levels are not equal in those Tournaments, DH had pretty disappointing games until the epic final. Dreamhack Champion: Terran over Zerg HSCX Winner: Protoss over Terran WCS-World Champion: Zerg over Terran. Distribution of Winners: Equal. Protoss Won 100% of their finals, Zerg won 50%, Terran 33%. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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Taronar
Netherlands177 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:06 TheWinks wrote: Win rates aren't everything. True, but the same inbalance from before this patch (P wins everything) now shows in T. I haven't really played a lot this season but as a P myself I am having an awful time against Terrans where I would crush them before. The winrates show the same differentation and the state of T is just not where it should be right now... | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Truthfully, the GSL is about the only place where the competition is consistently high enough that statistics could be used. Sadly, that has such a small sample size that it still doesn't give a good representation of balance. And the map pool has been mediocre (to say the least), and should most definitely be revised for the upcoming seasons. I'd love to see some quality maps by those Korean map-makers. While it's great that we have a bunch of user-made maps, they just aren't quite up to snuff for competitive play. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
From 31 july to 30 november, TvP records : Balanced : Deadwing : 34-36 (48.6%) Overgrowth : 86-86 (50%) King Sejong's station : 78-77 (50.3%) Imbalanced : Merry go round : 67-52 (56.3%) Catallena : 37-27 (57.8%) Foxtrot Labs : 32-22 (59.3%) WTF : Nimbus : 67-35 (65.7%) So basically every bo5+ PvT since july has been imba, not because of mines or stuff, simply because of map pool. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:12 Taronar wrote: True, but the same inbalance from before this patch (P wins everything) now shows in T. I haven't really played a lot this season but as a P myself I am having an awful time against Terrans where I would crush them before. The winrates show the same differentation and the state of T is just not where it should be right now... The imbalance that existed for T included only 3 and 4 terrans in Code S. Last season there were still 16 protoss in Code S. No balance conclusions should be drawn from this season's ladder though, ugh, #nightmarepool. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
The travelling koreans are mostly terran argument is completely ridiculous. Why not just come out and say "Terran players are just better"? 300+ games over 4 months in Ro32s of premier events only sure is not a "small sample size", and 57% and 66% is huge when it comes to balance. Protoss had the same winrates, granted their vs.Z MU probably wasn't as bad, but still people whined FOREVER until Protoss was nerfed. It's not fair towards the community that now that Terran's doing well everything is ok. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Balance being in favor of Terran on the S3 map pool is understandable. Some tournaments simply had stronger Terran representation. Most of these tournaments are mostly foreign tournaments in which Terran often has an edge in representation (TERRANS ARE NOT "BETTER", BUT THE TRAVELING KOREAN TERRANS ARE STRONGER (CONSISTENT, EXPERIENCED, MORE NUMEROUS) THAN THEIR ZERG/PROTOSS COUNTERPARTS) This might be a worrysome trend, I'm not fully sure this warrants balance changes yet, but it is certainly something to keep a very, very close eye on. Thanks for collecting these stats! | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:24 Gwavajuice wrote: I'm surprised to see that some seem to think that maps are not the issue. So let's use TLPD. From 31 july to 30 november, TvP records : Balanced : Deadwing : 34-36 (48.6%) Overgrowth : 86-86 (50%) King Sejong's station : 78-77 (50.3%) Imbalanced : Merry go round : 67-52 (56.3%) Catallena : 37-27 (57.8%) Foxtrot Labs : 32-22 (59.3%) WTF : Nimbus : 67-35 (65.7%) So basically every bo5+ PvT since july has been imba, not because of mines or stuff, simply because of map pool. merry go round is super in favored of SCV pulls, catallena has incredible drop surface areas depending on spawns, nimbus can have incredibly fast drops in 2/3 cases of spawns, and foxtrot labs has argueably hard 3rd bases which protoss suffers more from than terran by design. yes maps are the problem. also, deadwing is still a bad map despite being balanced, free bases behind 1 choke is just stupid design. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:27 SC2Toastie wrote: Balance being slightly over 50% in the initial tournaments is normal. Balance being in favor of Terran on the S3 map pool is understandable. Some tournaments simply had stronger Terran representation. This might be a worrysome trend, I'm not fully sure this warrants balance changes yet, but it is certainly something to keep a very, very close eye on. Hence the idea to start with a (much) better map pool and see where it goes from there. Though if a new map pool ends up being again made of mostly terran favored maps, maybe the issue will be more that it's too easy for maps to be terran favored and less the map themselves. Of course the usual suspects who keep repeating that everything is fine, that whatever numbers are not statistically relevant (except their own) and who don't even recognize any issue with the current map pool... well... that's where an ignore function would be pretty useful  It was only 4 months ago that they were saying the exact opposite (terrans were completely disappearing from the game right?). They'll go back to that soon enough. Hopefully new (and better) maps will come soon, and if the current trend continues, blizzard won't wait another 4 months to do something about it. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:27 SoulmaN__ wrote: All I read are apologies really. The travelling koreans are mostly terran argument is completely ridiculous. Why not just come out and say "Terran players are just better"? 300+ games over 4 months in Ro32s of premier events only sure is not a "small sample size", and 57% and 66% is huge when it comes to balance. Protoss had the same winrates, granted their vs.Z MU probably wasn't as bad, but still people whined FOREVER until Protoss was nerfed. It's not fair towards the community that now that Terran's doing well everything is ok. You want to read apologies, your post clearly shows you are biased against Terran and look for excuses to legitimize a patch response. 57% is not huge, considering Terran had some catching up to do, tournament participation has to balance which inflates winrates for a race by a lot over a reasonably short period, like this is. 66% however, is. TvP is not that worrysome, especially considering the maps. TvZ moreso. The new strenght and diversity in Terran all ins and a more efficient mine combined with a more multitask-demanding playstyle make TvZ very hard. Korean Terran representation in foreign tournaments IS stronger than P or Z. I can point that out for you tomorrow, if you want me to. | ||
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StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
GM: 28,6% Terran 33,2% Zerg 37,8% Protoss Master: 28,9% Terran 36,3% Zerg 33,0% Protoss Source: Nios.kr Given the fact that the player-basis accross all races are/should be equally skilled you can clearly see, that terran is too weak OR harder to play on a relatively high level (master+). | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:40 Maniak_ wrote: Hence the idea to start with a (much) better map pool and see where it goes from there. Though if a new map pool ends up being again made of mostly terran favored maps, maybe the issue will be more that it's too easy for maps to be terran favored and less the map themselves. Of course the usual suspects who keep repeating that everything is fine, that whatever numbers are not statistically relevant (except their own) and who don't even recognize any issue with the current map pool... well... that's where an ignore function would be pretty useful It was only 4 months ago that they were saying the exact opposite (terrans were completely disappearing from the game right?). They'll go back to that soon enough. Hopefully new (and better) maps will come soon, and if the current trend continues, blizzard won't wait another 4 months to do something about it. Patching in Dreampool would be stupid. Maps become Terran favored in case of open 3rd to 2nd bases with agressive attack paths connecting them, hard 4rth bases and large, dropable mains and naturals. Map distance doesn't matter that much for Terran anymore, as Terran is very versatile in speed of growing tech and economy. Maps first. Evaluate balance at the end of like februari. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:42 StaN.de wrote: GM is too small a sample size and not mobile enough, masters includes low to mid masters which has a ton of bad players and as such, cannot mean a thing to high level KR balance. You can only use GM and high Masters stats to notice a slow trend, but really not as evidence.You better should have a look at the race distribution statistics, they are more reliable & meaningful than winrates from selected tournaments (aka biased/small sample size). Take for example the EU server: GM: 28,6% Terran 33,2% Zerg 37,8% Protoss Master: 28,9% Terran 36,3% Zerg 33,0% Protoss Source: Nios.kr Given the fact that the player-basis accross all races are/should be equally skilled you can clearly see, that terran is too weak OR harder to play on a relatively high level (master+). | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
So we got a clear "make Terran stronger" mappool with a new balance patch. And because Season 4 has this crappy "old school" mappool we see all Offlineevents using the S3 Mappool. This will lead to a stronger Terran in the MUs. When we have Season 4 Mappool and we still got MU with clear unproportional victory where the maps arent imba, we can rethink about patching. Since then, ask the turnaments to use a mappool with outboxer, habitation, overgrowth, frost, whirlwind, star station and King Sejong, because they are allowed to use that pool during the offseason and still give WCS Points. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:42 StaN.de wrote: You better should have a look at the race distribution statistics, they are more reliable & meaningful than winrates from selected tournaments (aka biased/small sample size). Take for example the EU server: GM: 28,6% Terran 33,2% Zerg 37,8% Protoss Master: 28,9% Terran 36,3% Zerg 33,0% Protoss Source: Nios.kr Given the fact that the player-basis accross all races are/should be equally skilled you can clearly see, that terran is too weak OR harder to play on a relatively high level (master+). Take the KR server for example: Terran 38.07% Zerg 27.41% Protoss 32.99% Random 1.52% You chose EU, I chose KR, and tbh the KR server is more reliable than both the NA and the EU server combined. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:50 SoulmaN__ wrote: Take the KR server for example: Terran 38.07% Zerg 27.41% Protoss 32.99% Random 1.52% You chose EU, I chose KR, and tbh the KR server is more reliable than both the NA and the EU server combined. Why? I thought foreigners are just as good as Koreans? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:50 SoulmaN__ wrote: Take the KR server for example: Terran 38.07% Zerg 27.41% Protoss 32.99% Random 1.52% You chose EU, I chose KR, and tbh the KR server is more reliable than both the NA and the EU server combined. and still worthless for reasons mentioned On December 01 2014 04:45 SC2Toastie wrote: GM is too small a sample size and not mobile enough, masters includes low to mid masters which has a ton of bad players and as such, cannot mean a thing to high level KR balance. You can only use GM and high Masters stats to notice a slow trend, but really not as evidence. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On December 01 2014 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote: Why? I thought foreigners are just as good as Koreans? Hahaha, I knew you would make that comment :D. Poor SoulmaN_. | ||
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