EPTLife won blizzcon so terran did poorly on blizzconm and zerg dominated!
I don't understand why people say there's a map imbalance, and then at the same time pretend terran isn't doing fucking stellar, it's the fear of the nerf I guess?
Terran MU stats since July 25th (widow mine patch) - Page 7
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sibs
635 Posts
Life won blizzcon so terran did poorly on blizzconm and zerg dominated! I don't understand why people say there's a map imbalance, and then at the same time pretend terran isn't doing fucking stellar, it's the fear of the nerf I guess? | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:17 TheDwf wrote: Thanks for the good laugh, but no. Not a single chance. When are you going to post your follow up article to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii on the current state of balance? Can I suggest the title "Welcome to Tarcraft?" | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On December 01 2014 11:10 sibs wrote: Why are we discussing foreigners? Naniwa did more than stephano in korea, but less in sc2 as a whole by a lot. Life won blizzcon so terran did poorly on blizzconm and zerg dominated! I don't understand why people say there's a map imbalance, and then at the same time pretend terran isn't doing fucking stellar, it's the fear of the nerf I guess? And Jinro did more than any other foreigner ever, but nobody mentions it. But yeah I don't understand what foreigners have to do with the current discussion | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8735 Posts
On December 01 2014 11:14 -_- wrote: When are you going to post your follow up article to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii on the current state of balance? Can I suggest the title "Welcome to Tarcraft?" rofl. what a burn :D | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 01 2014 11:14 -_- wrote: When are you going to post your follow up article to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii on the current state of balance? Can I suggest the title "Welcome to Tarcraft?" When there are 3 Protoss and 16 Terrans in Code S for two seasons in a row, I expect. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On December 01 2014 10:58 Nebuchad wrote: There is no universe in which Huk has the skill you're talking about here and Naniwa doesn't. Also you don't need to "consistently beat koreans" to qualify once. You're either too dismissive of what Naniwa did in Korea, or too impressed with what Huk and Stephano did in Korea; pick a side =) Naniwa was NEVER a dominant player. He was a fantastic player, able to compete ably with the best Korean's. Huk and Stephano wrecked the top Korean's and were expected to win most tournaments they entered (remember when Huk won nearly everything for three months and Stephano was the scariest zerg for almost a year). No current player is equal to what Naniwa did (including Huk, who is still active and one of the best double-handful of foreigners), but what Naniwa did was NOT equal to what Huk and Stephano did in their primes. Naniwa was probably a better player than at least Huk at his very best, but the competition was fiercer and so he was a lot less scary (Scarlett has probably played better than all of those mentioned, but hasn't come close to dominating the scene or even stealing a lot of thunder from Koreans). | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Kuchikikun
Italy560 Posts
On December 01 2014 09:15 Cheren wrote: Yes, but the Code A that got 16 Protoss into Code S was on the Season 3 map pool before the widow mine patch. Judging by how Code S went, it seems reasonable to say the patch did more than the map pool. This!Map are imbalanced but Protoss players were winning on them...then the patch came and the win rates changed drastically | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On December 01 2014 12:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This isn't a surprise at all. Everyone knows what is happening. This thread is just going to be Terrans who are trying to justify Terran not getting nerfed against Zerg/Protoss who want it to happen. Blizzard is going to nerf terran or buff the other races eventually, but whether the pendulum ends up swinging the other way entirely or not really depends on the timing of LotV. Nothing is going to change tho, not with LotV on the horizon, just see what happened with WoL and BL/Infestor, if you enter B.net and change your game client to WoL BL/Infetsor is as broken as always. I'm not saying terran is broken, but that maps are a realistic solution rather than asking for random buffs/nerfs that people aren't even sure what they should be. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:59 Wertheron wrote: I think Blizz made the good choice. Terrans players are the most powerful lobby and whinners in Sc2 ^^. If P or Z are dominant we have shitstorms during months, but when T have stats like that, it's clearly not balance but T players think it is and forums are calm. So, to save sc2 from balance drama, Blizz must make Terrans OP :p ^This. x1000. Terran players make the most shitstorm if things are slightly not going their way. And then when its 52% in their favor "its only 52%." If it's 55% in their favor "just this season, P and Z will adapt" If its 59% in their favor "its the maps guys." Some Terran players will never admit it though. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On December 01 2014 17:00 SC2Toastie wrote: This thread has become such a whiny circlejerk it should just be closed. There's nothjng to be gained from this. Go complain in the designated balance discussion thread. Totally agree. Stop complaining about nerf and buffs, it's just maps, maps, maps, and maps again! Reposting the stats cause some still miss that point : On December 01 2014 04:24 Gwavajuice wrote: I'm surprised to see that some seem to think that maps are not the issue. So let's use TLPD. From 31 july to 30 november, TvP records : Balanced : Deadwing : 34-36 (48.6%) Overgrowth : 86-86 (50%) King Sejong's station : 78-77 (50.3%) Imbalanced : Merry go round : 67-52 (56.3%) Catallena : 37-27 (57.8%) Foxtrot Labs : 32-22 (59.3%) WTF : Nimbus : 67-35 (65.7%) So basically every bo5+ PvT since july has been imba, not because of mines or stuff, simply because of map pool. Just replace Nimbus and Foxtrot by Frost and Habitation station, and the balance issue is solved. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8735 Posts
if there are still some issues, address them then. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
On December 01 2014 17:24 Gwavajuice wrote: Totally agree. Stop complaining about nerf and buffs, it's just maps, maps, maps, and maps again! Reposting the stats cause some still miss that point : Just replace Nimbus and Foxtrot by Frost and Habitation station, and the balance issue is solved. @Gwavajuice How dare you analyse raw stats and give them a proper meaning ! This is a revert widow mine buff whine thread! Every single stats should be cherry picked out of its context and only serve the purpose of nerfing WM again. And you just come here and tell us we are wrong using some fancy statistic analysis ! I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR RELIGION !! Nerf WM plz blizzard! | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3487 Posts
WidowMine health nerf to 80, so that it dies to a single storm. +2 attack Banelings would then 2 shot Mines. And If there were some way to nerf SCV pulls too that would be quite pleasant. Other than that I think we should just play it out and let the weaker races adapt or learn to play towards a higher level. | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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helius788
New Zealand74 Posts
Yeah, Terrans are doing really good at the moment. I don't like the WM (in all MU), but I think the biggest factor for Terrans doing better is the map pool. for example in season 2: Frost, Alterzim and Waystation were really bad maps for Terran (Frost was okay in TvP) addition of Merry, Catallena, Foxtrot and even Nimbus (not too sure about Deadwing) are almost designed for Terrans. Many drop options, but not offering too much surface for blinks and it's rather hard on them to secure the 3rd for P and Z too. And the season 4 map pool, well it's a joke and rather good maps for terrans. Problem back then about the MU was that playing Bio against Zerg on bigger maps was so hard to win if Z gets an easy 4th. And with TvP: Terran still has not many early game options, needs to prepare for everything (well kinda learn it, too) and still hates lategame. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote: I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. Since then, parts of Hot6ix and HSC V and all of DH:W were completed, for an additional 4-4 from Hot6ix, 7-6 from HSC V, and 23-21 from DH:W, both favoring Zerg, which brings my earlier total to 51.7% in favor of Zerg from a score of 90-84. I question the OP's methodology in using all games after the patch, because that suggests that all games after the patch fall under the same umbrella, that the situation today is the same as it was two months ago, and that simply isn't true. It takes time for responses to certain strategies to be figured out. Take the Hellbat push that Flash had such monstrous success with in Code S, yesterday ForGG tried it at least three times against Life over two series and failed EVERY SINGLE TIME. This despite Life's propensity to skip Roaches in defending early pressure. My post isn't, strictly speaking, necessary, because everybody is being quite level headed about results that are much worse than the reality today. But the aims of the OP are suspect. Nowhere does he suggest that ZvT winrate has gone up consistently and considerably the longer the patch has been out. Whirlwind Innovation vs DRG had speedy Medivacs, and that was smaller than Deadwing and Catallena. I'm very glad that the community is willing to look at the maps first in this situation, I just don't think the mistake Blizzard made was a rookie one. As you go on to say, there are very many things to factor into map design. edit: updated with full HSC V results. I agree with this methodology. All this stat gathering does not take skill disparity into account, and the skill disparity between foreigners and Koreans is huge right now. If Taeja were to beat five foreigner zerg players in a single tournament, it would skew the stats towards 'terran is OP' while arguably there isn't a single foreign zerg that even comes close to Taeja's level at the moment, including Snute. The situation is even worse for foreign Protoss players. From a spectator's perspective, I don't mind Terran being a bit OP. They are the most fun to watch by a large margin because unlike Z and P, they cannot afford to turtle because they can neither match Zerg's economy and tech-switching ability, or Protoss' army strength. They have to be active and out on the map from the moment their first unit spawns. | ||
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