EPTSo, to save sc2 from balance drama, Blizz must make Terrans OP :p
Terran MU stats since July 25th (widow mine patch) - Page 3
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Wertheron
France439 Posts
So, to save sc2 from balance drama, Blizz must make Terrans OP :p | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:58 Big J wrote: My point is that if you defend them in ways that still make you lose the game then they are still as scary as ever. So despite agreeing that the hellbat pushes aren't as scary anymore, the chosen examples do not show that at all. Despite the g5 you pointed out. (though the hellbat/banshee is just not a good hellbat push to begin with; it's like a zerg that goes for a roach/ling allin at the time he could do roach/bane) There was a time when Zergs were saying Hellbat pushes themselves were undefendable. That is no longer the case. The meta has evolved. If you take nothing else from my post, then at least I am sure we can agree that this proves that metas do evolve, and so we cannot be sure where TvZ will be one month from now, because the way Hellbat games go has already changed from one month ago. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:16 pure.Wasted wrote: I'd like to throw out some different results I got doing something very similar earlier this month. Across MSI Beat It, Blizzcon, Hot6ix Qualifiers, and HSC V, counting only Korean vs Korean games (this impacted MSI and HSC V), TvZ was 51.3% in favor of Zerg from a score of 56-53. You just have to love how people think how koreans are genetically better equipped to play starcraft or something. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Now to your stats: As I said, they're spoiled because you chose to cut into the actual happening games, because you personally thought they don't belong there. Just because you think all foreigners should lose to koreans all the time doesn't mean it actually is like that. I on other hand chose all games which are relevant, and because in most qualifiers there is a HUGE skill difference until the semi-finals/ finals I didn't include them all together. I didn't include some Rounds of tournaments because they showed too much of a skill difference or contained too many low level players (for example DH: Moscow Ro32, featured so many local or in general unknown players that they would have broken the statistics. If you wanna know what happens if you include qualifiers, major tournaments, minor tournaments, weekly tournaments: Just look at the Terran-Goodfeel graph on Aligulac, it always says 50% for stats in the past year). | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote: You just have to love how people think how koreans are genetically better equipped to play starcraft or something. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. We've said this about foreigners in the past. It never ended how we imagined. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:00 pure.Wasted wrote: There was a time when Zergs were saying Hellbat pushes themselves were undefendable. That is no longer the case. The meta has evolved. If you take nothing else from my post, then at least I am sure we can agree that this proves that metas do evolve, and so we cannot be sure where TvZ will be one month from now, because the way Hellbat games go has already changed from one month ago. Well, to put this up front, I don't think TvZ is broken currently. Aside from 1-3maps, the matchup is in a great state. I believe similar things could have been said before the last patch! For example if you watch what forgg did in his games against Life, it had nothing to do with the WM or Thor patch. He even won with aggressive Mech without Ravens, something that Terran's have been calling impossible since the start of HotS. Matchups always evolve. And they always evolve both ways. If we kept this in mind, we would never "need" changes, because we can't predict how the matchups will evolve and you can always clutch on a positive evolution in a race's play. Which is why I don't really like that argument, because you can always justify any state of a matchup with it, regardless of how one-sided it "currently" is. (again, I don't think TvZ is one-sided currently; it's just your argumentation that I don't agree with) There was a time when Zergs were saying Hellbat pushes themselves were undefendable. Those people were probably not very high caliber. What I have heard from players like Snute and experienced myself is that you needed to be way more greedier after the WM patch (go to 80drones instead of 65-70 in macro games), so you were much more susceptible to such rushes. In particular at that point in time when Terrans themselves hadn't figured out how to properly hellbat push, hence scouting hellbat pushes was much harder because they were being done of so many different setups and it wasn't clear that some just weren't good to begin with. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote: Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried Thanks for the good laugh, but no. Not a single chance. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On December 01 2014 00:29 Nebuchad wrote: The thread is doing better than expected, honestly. Most people recognize that the path that makes sense involves doing nothing and changing the maps. You would think that's obvious, but history tells us it's not. That's really an awful idea. Sc2 has massive restrictions on map design as it is, we don't need more. Map-making is already like juggling chainsaws where the slightest variation can break the map in any MU. If we keep blaming the maps over and over we are going to paint ourselves into a corner where we'll play on 5 different tilesets of Frost in 2016. The problems are endemic to the the game, they cannot be scapegoated away on maps. Edit: not that it really matters right now, with LotV poised to turn the game upside down, of which I heartily condone. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:13 SoulmaN__ wrote: You just have to love how people think how koreans are genetically better equipped to play starcraft or something. Just because someone's korean doesn't mean they're better. People like Bunny, Scarlett or Snute could easily make Code S if they tried, they just don't want to for obvious reasons. Now to your stats: As I said, they're spoiled because you chose to cut into the actual happening games, because you personally thought they don't belong there. Just because you think all foreigners should lose to koreans all the time doesn't mean it actually is like that. I on other hand chose all games which are relevant, and because in most qualifiers there is a HUGE skill difference until the semi-finals/ finals I didn't include them all together. I didn't include some Rounds of tournaments because they showed too much of a skill difference or contained too many low level players (for example DH: Moscow Ro32, featured so many local or in general unknown players that they would have broken the statistics. If you wanna know what happens if you include qualifiers, major tournaments, minor tournaments, weekly tournaments: Just look at the Terran-Goodfeel graph on Aligulac, it always says 50% for stats in the past year). statistically its undeniable that taking korean vs korean matches will get you the balance at TOP level play. also none of those foreigners have a chance in code S. im sorry. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:17 TheDwf wrote: Thanks for the good laugh, but no. Not a single chance. So why then? Because players like Hush, Myungsik, Trap or Reality are so much better than them? Because they're korean? You've gotta be kidding me. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:22 SoulmaN__ wrote: So why then? Because players like Hush, Myungsik, Trap or Reality are so much better than them? Because they're korean? You've gotta be kidding me. Myunsik, Trap and Reality are much better. Hush cannot easily make Code S either. He may slip in once or twice. (though I could be totally wrong and he has been improving greatly and will be an up- and commer next year; in that case shame on me) | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:27 pure.Wasted wrote: Thanks for the elaboration. However, I'm not sure what you were saying "no" to. Your point that "we found out how much air space is too much" just furthers mine that Blizzard can't shoulder all the blame for not foreseeing this situation. Agreed about Templar openers. Actually, had they taken into account the new maps when releasing patches most of the issues we are seeing today wouldn't have developed in the first place :/ I have said it previously, as a mapmaker i do not what to do now, because i don't know how will Blizzard balance the game 4 months from now, do i take the balance of the game into my hands and release a map that is not as favorable for terran like foxtrot was? What happens if Blizzard then decides to nerf Terran based on old S3/S4 tournament stats without accounting for the new maps again? Or if i make a map that hinders Terran and in 7 months Blizzard decides to buff them based on 2015 S1/S2 data where Terran underperformed because of my map? A ladder map should be balanced, so i must take the future balance of the game into account and predict how will the metagame change on my map, but this becomes impossible if Blizzard releases balance patches while the map is being played. A map has a limited lifespan where it will be considered balanced and dynamic, the WCS seasons are quite the stretch for nonstandard maps which tend to have around 3 to 4 months of continuous play life span max. Now add to this that you can't make a full standard map because viewers will whine that the map is boring or that players have no incentive to be aggressive in the early game leading to dead time. So guys, honestly, tell me, what do i do? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:17 TheDwf wrote: Thanks for the good laugh, but no. Not a single chance. I like the confident "easily" too. Not even with luck they couldn't... | ||
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RakeSC2
Norway37 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Been mentioned a few times but aside from whatever the winrates are, it's really sad that Protoss can't open with templar stuff anymore. The matchup was so much more interesting then. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:28 Uvantak wrote: Actually, had they taken into account the new maps when releasing patches most of the issues we are seeing today wouldn't have developed in the first place :/ I have said it previously, as a mapmaker i do not what to do now, because i don't know how will Blizzard balance the game 4 months from now, do i take the balance of the game into my hands and release a map that is not as favorable for terran like foxtrot was? What happens if Blizzard then decides to nerf Terran based on old S3/S4 tournament stats without accounting for the new maps again? Or if i make a map that hinders Terran and in 7 months Blizzard decides to buff them based on 2015 S1/S2 data where Terran underperformed because of my map? A ladder map should be balanced, so i must take the future balance of the game into account and predict how will the metagame change on my map, but this becomes impossible if Blizzard releases balance patches while the map is being played. A map has a limited lifespan where it will be considered balanced and dynamic, the WCS seasons are quite the stretch for nonstandard maps which tend to have around 3 to 4 months of continuous play life span max. Now add to this that you can't make a full standard map because viewers will whine that the map is boring or that players have no incentive to be aggressive in the early game leading to dead time. So guys, honestly, tell me, what do i do? I think your best bet is to do a little bit of everything. Make a very standard 1-2-3 base setup (like Overgrowth), make it just a little bit blink-affine (like KSS), make standard aggression towards 4th bases a little bit more favored (like Merry Go Round) and then just make it very pretty. :D | ||
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KrOmander
United Kingdom78 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:25 Big J wrote: Myunsik, Trap and Reality are much better. Hush cannot easily make Code S either. He may slip in once or twice. (though I could be totally wrong and he has been improving greatly and will be an up- and commer next year; in that case shame on me) Based on what exactly do you think those players are much better? I mean if you think they are of a slightly higher level (which I also do) and think they would probably beat the foreigners mentioned in a long series I understand, but to say they are much better, I just don't see it at all. Kind of why discussions/arguments on tl rarely amount to anything that can be taken seriously when posts are full of exaggerations that one would expect from minors. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2014 03:46 KrOmander wrote: Based on what exactly do you think those players are much better? I mean if you think they are of a slightly higher level (which I also do) and think they would probably beat the foreigners mentioned in a long series I understand, but to say they are much better, I just don't see it at all. Kind of why discussions/arguments on tl rarely amount to anything that can be taken seriously when posts are full of exaggerations that one would expect from minors. Myunsik and Trap are two Protoss players that have been going toe-to-toe with the best of the best players in the world for a long time now. And when I say toe-to-toe, I mean they are beating the likes of Innovation, Solar, Soulkey, Zest, sOs on a regular basis. They are the players that would win every tournament without a Korean Superstar in it. Reality is very similar to them. On the other hand, players like Snute or Scarlett have OK results when it comes to playing against foreign Koreans, but they usually gets stomped by the likes of Innovation, herO, sOs, Solar, Zest, Maru. Like Bunny+Snute+Scarlett combined have how many wins against Code S Koreans? That one against Flash from Snute. Any more? Out of those players, Snute has been the most consistent one. I could see him qualify for Code S. But not easily, just with an easy bracket in the qualification process and if all his stars align. And that despite being a huge foreigner and in particular Snute fanboy. But he just doesn't have that Korean training. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
David Kim and co. aren't trying to balance the game so that we have an equal amount of top players for every race that can all beat each other, they are trying to balance the game so that the very best always has a shot at winning. I think they are doing a great job at that and it will hopefully allow us to have real star players for each race in the future. Now if things get out of control and we see only Terrans in the top8 of every tournament I think maps will just have to be adjusted, but please stop the cry for balance patches. Just give the players and map makers time. | ||
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NLWiNtER
Hungary11 Posts
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