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On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with.  This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite.
I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting.
Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one (worst case scenario I play Shakuras/Ohana/Daybreak/Akilon ; if Bel'shir Vestige or Neo Planet S is the last map I'll drop Shakuras though I'll probably give this map a try) ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected.
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On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected.
No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^
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On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^
A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me.
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On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me.
That would be pretty good, although I'd argue that there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot. Also, adding to that an alternate map pool for unranked (something like 5-7 different maps in addition to the ladder map pool with unlimited vetos) to give radically different maps a chance to be played would be cool.
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On October 22 2014 01:16 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me. there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot.
I definitely like and agree with this distinction ^^ ; like I said before, overall I'm not too critical on Foxtrot and even play it. I just don't get why the mapmaker couldn't make the ramp one hex narrower so that P can safely expand in PvZ, but that must be part of shaking the meta. I know it sounds like I hate "innovative" maps, which is the case to some extent, but I feel we should be given 4-5 "standard solid" maps in every map pool so that people who don't wish to play strange maps can veto them. It would even allow more bold attempts in the 3-2 remaining maps, though I hope some things (huge maps : Alterzim/Deadwing, open naturals : Daedalus Point, impossible to defend against drops maps : Nimbus and to some extent Catallena...) are never to be seen again.
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On October 22 2014 01:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 01:16 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me. there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot. I definitely like and agree with this distinction ^^ ; like I said before, overall I'm not too critical on Foxtrot and even play it. I just don't get why the mapmaker couldn't make the ramp one hex narrower so that P can safely expand in PvZ, but that must be part of shaking the meta. I know it sounds like I hate "innovative" maps, which is the case to some extent, but I feel we should be given 4-5 "standard solid" maps in every map pool so that people who don't wish to play strange maps can veto them. It would even allow more bold attempts in the 3-2 remaining maps.
You have to keep in mind that "innovative" and "standard" is not black and white though. I mean, would you place Habitation among what you call "standard solid" maps or "innovative"?
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On October 22 2014 01:26 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 01:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 01:16 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me. there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot. I definitely like and agree with this distinction ^^ ; like I said before, overall I'm not too critical on Foxtrot and even play it. I just don't get why the mapmaker couldn't make the ramp one hex narrower so that P can safely expand in PvZ, but that must be part of shaking the meta. I know it sounds like I hate "innovative" maps, which is the case to some extent, but I feel we should be given 4-5 "standard solid" maps in every map pool so that people who don't wish to play strange maps can veto them. It would even allow more bold attempts in the 3-2 remaining maps. You have to keep in mind that "innovative" and "standard" is not black and white though. I mean, would you place Habitation among what you call "standard solid" maps or "innovative"?
I already mentioned earlier in the thread that Habitation Station is, to my mind, one of the only cases of something that looks really gimmicky (a really easy gold that can even be taken as natural or floated on) turning into something standard and to my mind quite awesome. But that is one Habitation Station for many Icarus, Daedalus Point and Alterzim. I know it's not black and white, but I think there are some rules (not too big/small map, wallable natural, not too much air space, small ramp at the main...) that people seem to think are here to be broken and I think are here because you can't make a reasonable map without abiding to them.
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On October 22 2014 01:29 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 01:26 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 01:16 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote:But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me. there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot. I definitely like and agree with this distinction ^^ ; like I said before, overall I'm not too critical on Foxtrot and even play it. I just don't get why the mapmaker couldn't make the ramp one hex narrower so that P can safely expand in PvZ, but that must be part of shaking the meta. I know it sounds like I hate "innovative" maps, which is the case to some extent, but I feel we should be given 4-5 "standard solid" maps in every map pool so that people who don't wish to play strange maps can veto them. It would even allow more bold attempts in the 3-2 remaining maps. You have to keep in mind that "innovative" and "standard" is not black and white though. I mean, would you place Habitation among what you call "standard solid" maps or "innovative"? I already mentioned earlier in the thread that Habitation Station is, to my mind, one of the only cases of something that looks really gimmicky (a really easy gold that can even be taken as natural or floated on) turning into something standard and really awesome. But that is one Habitation Station for many Icarus, Daedalus Point and Alterzim. I know it's not black and white, but I think there are some rules (not too big/small map, wallable natural, not too much air space, small ramp at the main...) that people seem to think are here to be broken and I think are here because you can't make a reasonable map without abiding to them.
I thought like you considering basic 'rules' of a non-broken map until someone in this thread (I believe it was in this thread?) answered me that a broken feature can be fixed by another broken feature. I have to say that I would like to see this in action to really believe it, but that concept, along with the part that I bolded, make me wish that non-WCS tournaments used non-ladder maps, including crazy ones.
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On October 22 2014 01:34 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 01:29 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 01:26 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 01:16 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 01:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 22 2014 00:52 OtherWorld wrote:On October 22 2014 00:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 21 2014 23:40 OtherWorld wrote:On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote:
[quote]
This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. I know a lot of people like to shit on it (too standard, boring, too small, etc) but I genuinely think Overgrowth set a standard for a solid HotS 2 players map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom did in WoL. It's the only map in the current map pool I don't mind playing on. The others I play all have at least slightly unpleasant features (Deadwing is retardedly large -I hate this map-, MGR has its horribly hard third though I like the map and Foxtrot Labs is really hard to expand in PvZ on though I appreciate the map overall too) so having Overgrowth in the map pool feels really comforting. Like some others said before, I will actually enjoy this #dreampool at least as much as the current one ; which was, to say the least, quite unexpected. No, I agree with you and feel Overgrowth is one the most standard and solid map in HotS along with Frost (and Bel'shir imo). But having a map pool with 7 Overgrowth/Frost would make me sad^^ A map pool with 4 Overgrowth/Frost and 3 of those weird things people seem to think are good and refreshing for the game and I can veto (Daedalus Point, Foxtrot Labs, Nimbus...) would actually delight me. there is a difference between "weird shitty things" like Daedalus and "weird interesting things" like Foxtrot. I definitely like and agree with this distinction ^^ ; like I said before, overall I'm not too critical on Foxtrot and even play it. I just don't get why the mapmaker couldn't make the ramp one hex narrower so that P can safely expand in PvZ, but that must be part of shaking the meta. I know it sounds like I hate "innovative" maps, which is the case to some extent, but I feel we should be given 4-5 "standard solid" maps in every map pool so that people who don't wish to play strange maps can veto them. It would even allow more bold attempts in the 3-2 remaining maps. You have to keep in mind that "innovative" and "standard" is not black and white though. I mean, would you place Habitation among what you call "standard solid" maps or "innovative"? I already mentioned earlier in the thread that Habitation Station is, to my mind, one of the only cases of something that looks really gimmicky (a really easy gold that can even be taken as natural or floated on) turning into something standard and really awesome. But that is one Habitation Station for many Icarus, Daedalus Point and Alterzim. I know it's not black and white, but I think there are some rules (not too big/small map, wallable natural, not too much air space, small ramp at the main...) that people seem to think are here to be broken and I think are here because you can't make a reasonable map without abiding to them. I thought like you considering basic 'rules' of a non-broken map until someone in this thread (I believe it was in this thread?) answered me that a broken feature can be fixed by another broken feature. I have to say that I would like to see this in action to really believe it, but that concept, along with the part that I bolded, make me wish that non-WCS tournaments used non-ladder maps, including crazy ones.
I read that too and I think it's bullshit, though I'm very open to seeing some mapmakers making maps trying to go this way and non WCS-tourneys using them. But to be perfectly honest, I don't believe in it. I know you can cure some diseases by giving the patient another disease, but I think in this case it'll just end up adding broken features together to get really desperately unsalvageable maps ; at least Daedalus became a half-decent map when they reduced the natural ramp size. To emphasize it : I agree with you, I'd like to see some less important tournaments get more innovative as far as maps go, so that solid maps that emerge there can then be used in serious tournaments. But I think ladder map pool and WCS map pool should aim to be as standard and solid as it gets.
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when you try to fix imbalance with imbalance, the imbalance that comes first wins and makes later imbalance obsolete, but the map is still imbalanced.
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On October 22 2014 01:59 Meavis wrote:
when you try to fix imbalance with imbalance, the imbalance that comes first wins and makes later imbalance obsolete, but the map is still imbalanced.
Ha ha ha ! Quite well said, and I think it's totally true.
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On October 22 2014 01:59 Meavis wrote:
when you try to fix imbalance with imbalance, the imbalance that comes first wins and makes later imbalance obsolete, but the map is still imbalanced.
Or, in the immortal words of Ryung:
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
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Why aren't progamers up in arms about this 
They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol
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On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol
Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal.
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On October 22 2014 05:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal.
2 and a half months of crappy ladder games
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On October 22 2014 05:04 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal. 2 and a half months of crappy ladder games
Not necessarily, a couple of the maps are okay
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On October 22 2014 05:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:04 Gamegene wrote:On October 22 2014 05:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal. 2 and a half months of crappy ladder games Not necessarily, a couple of the maps are okay
#1 Cloud Kingdom LE (8.34%) - Amount of space to cover for the main versus Reaper / Blink
#2 Metalopolis (8.14%) lol
#3 Daybreak LE (7.79%) SWARM HOSTS
#4 Ohana LE (7.69%) SOUL TRAIN
#5 Shakuras Plateau (7.21%) I HOPE YOU ENJOY BACK DOOR MSC BLINK... AND IT'S SHAKURAS LOL
#6 Akilon Wastes (6.77%) OK map.
Steppes lol
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On October 22 2014 05:08 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:04 Gamegene wrote:On October 22 2014 05:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal. 2 and a half months of crappy ladder games Not necessarily, a couple of the maps are okay #1 Cloud Kingdom LE (8.34%) - Amount of space to cover for the main versus Reaper / Blink #2 Metalopolis (8.14%) lol #3 Daybreak LE (7.79%) SWARM HOSTS #4 Ohana LE (7.69%) SOUL TRAIN #5 Shakuras Plateau (7.21%) I HOPE YOU ENJOY BACK DOOR MSC BLINK... AND IT'S SHAKURAS LOL #6 Akilon Wastes (6.77%) OK map. Steppes lol
I said okay, not perfect. Every maps has exploitable stuff
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CK, Ohana, Daybreak and Akilon are playable enough, but they're definitely a step backwards from a lot of the better maps we've seen in the past year. Throw in 2 more maps and an extra veto please :<
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On October 22 2014 05:09 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:08 Gamegene wrote:On October 22 2014 05:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:04 Gamegene wrote:On October 22 2014 05:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 22 2014 05:02 Gamegene wrote:Why aren't progamers up in arms about this They're the ones who are going to suffer the most, either they're not going to get practice on the maps they want or tournaments will actually use the ladder maps lol Tournaments probably won't use the ladder maps and it isn't WCS so it isn't as big of a deal. 2 and a half months of crappy ladder games Not necessarily, a couple of the maps are okay #1 Cloud Kingdom LE (8.34%) - Amount of space to cover for the main versus Reaper / Blink #2 Metalopolis (8.14%) lol #3 Daybreak LE (7.79%) SWARM HOSTS #4 Ohana LE (7.69%) SOUL TRAIN #5 Shakuras Plateau (7.21%) I HOPE YOU ENJOY BACK DOOR MSC BLINK... AND IT'S SHAKURAS LOL #6 Akilon Wastes (6.77%) OK map. Steppes lol I said okay, not perfect. Every maps has exploitable stuff
every?
try me brah
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EPT
