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On October 29 2014 07:37 Mozdk wrote:
Xel'Naga. PvZ is actually not playable here...
I'll play zerg this season.
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd.
On October 30 2014 02:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 01:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On October 29 2014 16:48 Meavis wrote:On October 29 2014 10:34 Entropy137 wrote:
They could have actually had an almost tournament worthy map pool. Too bad xel naga is unplayable in a lot of matchups. you're kidding right? every single map in this pool is a balance disaster. Kinda like the current map-pool. Except the current map-pool has stats and evidence for imbalance whereas you're just speculating/going against existing stats for the maps that have been played during HotS. But whatever... ^_^ I actually agree with Sated and Entropy here, remove XNC which is plain stupid (Metalopolis is kinda borderline, I guess it can end up being acceptable since you can wall from Nexus in PvZ) and we have a playable pool. Sure some problems may arise on some maps (blink on CK, SH on Akilon...) but in the current map pool Catallena, Nimbus and Deadwing are already really bad maps with sometimes blatant balance issues (ah, PvT on Nimbus...) so I don't think we're losing much in the trade here.
and I disagree, this whole pool is a balance disaster, if you wanted balanced maps a legacy map pool is not where you want to be looking, I'm still puzzled why anyone would want to pick boring imbalanced maps over weird imbalanced maps.
as for the current map pool, it's just poorly designed, merry go round and catallena are overlapping in open 3player maps, then theres deadwing where the goal of the map is who makes the best deathball.
but to consider this map pool "really bad" is completely delusional when comparing it to the incoming nightmare.
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Italy12248 Posts
On October 30 2014 17:14 Meavis wrote:
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd.
Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran nor protoss can fully wall off their natural in time to hold any kind of roach/ling kind of bust, at least not without doing an overly safe opener that leaves players behind against anything else. The same exact situation happened on Daedalus Point.
When those maps were in the tournament pool, those builds either didn't exist, weren't refined enough, Zergs simply didn't play correctly against overly safe openers like 3-gate sentry expands, or didn't exploit the lack of a full wall correctly. This is why back in the day using your nexus as part of a half wall was viable, while today it kind of isn't.
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On October 30 2014 17:53 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 17:14 Meavis wrote:
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd. Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran nor protoss can fully wall off their natural in time to hold any kind of roach/ling kind of bust, at least not without doing an overly safe opener that leaves players behind against anything else. The same exact situation happened on Daedalus Point. When those maps were in the tournament pool, those builds either didn't exist, weren't refined enough, Zergs simply didn't play correctly against overly safe openers like 3-gate sentry expands, or didn't exploit the lack of a full wall correctly. This is why back in the day using your nexus as part of a half wall was viable, while today it kind of isn't.
the difference being that playing safe on XNC is totally reasonale compared to daedelus, as zerg has no chance of spiraling out of control on this map.
the zerg is pretty much forced into 1 or 2 base plays, so playing anything but safe is just stupid, if zerg attacks you can easily get value out of a good hold and switch the aggression back, and if he plays greedy, he can easily be punished by anything along the lines of a 6gate.
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I think we will see on XNC only 2 Base plays. No race will pick a third, maybe, maybe when the all in did not achieve victory, but a new even situtation.
The decisions will be: Will my all in be better then his or should i go 2 base defensive?
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"Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran" = We have to "tank" expand.. It's going to be really funny.. When are the new season? I think two base mech plays will become quite good.
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Italy12248 Posts
On October 30 2014 17:59 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 17:53 Teoita wrote:On October 30 2014 17:14 Meavis wrote:
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd. Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran nor protoss can fully wall off their natural in time to hold any kind of roach/ling kind of bust, at least not without doing an overly safe opener that leaves players behind against anything else. The same exact situation happened on Daedalus Point. When those maps were in the tournament pool, those builds either didn't exist, weren't refined enough, Zergs simply didn't play correctly against overly safe openers like 3-gate sentry expands, or didn't exploit the lack of a full wall correctly. This is why back in the day using your nexus as part of a half wall was viable, while today it kind of isn't. the difference being that playing safe on XNC is totally reasonale compared to daedelus, as zerg has no chance of spiraling out of control on this map. the zerg is pretty much forced into 1 or 2 base plays, so playing anything but safe is just stupid, if zerg attacks you can easily get value out of a good hold and switch the aggression back, and if he plays greedy, he can easily be punished by anything along the lines of a 6gate.
Lol are you seriously saying that zerg can't spiral out of control on cross position Metalopolis? That's exactly how they won games on that map in 2010-2011...not to mention, if the Protoss opens overly safely with 3gate expand, a followup 6-7gate is a) extremely delayed and weakened (that's why cheesy 2base protoss players tend to open with greedy fast expands btw), and b) easily scouted, since every gateway MUST be placed at the natural to complete said wall off.
Zerg is forced into 2base builds, sure, but those builds basically always work so...
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On October 30 2014 17:53 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 17:14 Meavis wrote:
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd. Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran nor protoss can fully wall off their natural in time to hold any kind of roach/ling kind of bust, at least not without doing an overly safe opener that leaves players behind against anything else. The same exact situation happened on Daedalus Point. When those maps were in the tournament pool, those builds either didn't exist, weren't refined enough, Zergs simply didn't play correctly against overly safe openers like 3-gate sentry expands, or didn't exploit the lack of a full wall correctly. This is why back in the day using your nexus as part of a half wall was viable, while today it kind of isn't.
7 Roach Rush is the way, I've just realized how old I am now 
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Italy12248 Posts
Nah zerg one base builds remain terribad (and super easy to scout). At least that wont change 
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On October 30 2014 18:22 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 17:59 Meavis wrote:On October 30 2014 17:53 Teoita wrote:On October 30 2014 17:14 Meavis wrote:
that's funny, the main reason for xel'naga becoming outdated was zerg being unable to secure a 3rd. Meta and XNC are insanely zerg favoured now because neither terran nor protoss can fully wall off their natural in time to hold any kind of roach/ling kind of bust, at least not without doing an overly safe opener that leaves players behind against anything else. The same exact situation happened on Daedalus Point. When those maps were in the tournament pool, those builds either didn't exist, weren't refined enough, Zergs simply didn't play correctly against overly safe openers like 3-gate sentry expands, or didn't exploit the lack of a full wall correctly. This is why back in the day using your nexus as part of a half wall was viable, while today it kind of isn't. the difference being that playing safe on XNC is totally reasonale compared to daedelus, as zerg has no chance of spiraling out of control on this map. the zerg is pretty much forced into 1 or 2 base plays, so playing anything but safe is just stupid, if zerg attacks you can easily get value out of a good hold and switch the aggression back, and if he plays greedy, he can easily be punished by anything along the lines of a 6gate. Lol are you seriously saying that zerg can't spiral out of control on cross position Metalopolis? That's exactly how they won games on that map in 2010-2011...not to mention, if the Protoss opens overly safely with 3gate expand, a followup 6-7gate is a) extremely delayed and weakened (that's why cheesy 2base protoss players tend to open with greedy fast expands btw), and b) easily scouted, since every gateway MUST be placed at the natural to complete said wall off. Zerg is forced into 2base builds, sure, but those builds basically always work so...
I said XNC, not metalopolis.
assuming 2base builds work every time is just stupid, it's completely possible to play defensive on that map and hold 2base aggresion, unless you play some super greedy fast expand bullshit like a 1gate FE.
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EPT
