EPTSeason 4 Ladder Map Pool: Voting Begins! - Page 45
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 21 2014 19:22 SatedSC2 wrote: Instead of the current 7. The Season 4 map-pool will be these 7 maps and these 7 maps only. The thing that's scaring me most is ZvZ on those maps. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 21 2014 19:24 FFW_Rude wrote: The thing that's scaring me most is ZvZ on those maps. Don't worry, as asual nobody gives a shit about ZvZ when talking of maps :/ | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2014 19:46 OtherWorld wrote: Don't worry, as asual nobody gives a shit about ZvZ when talking of maps :/ I think there is not a lot you can do mapwise for ZvZ. Make the natural choke tight and covered with creep without a tumor. Make it so that queens can somewhat easily walk between natural and main. If you want to make roach fights more interesting, chokes in front of 3rd and 4th bases help. But it's mostly unit issues... | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 21 2014 19:52 Big J wrote: I think there is not a lot you can do mapwise for ZvZ. Make the natural choke tight and covered with creep without a tumor. Make it so that queens can somewhat easily walk between natural and main. If you want to make roach fights more interesting, chokes in front of 3rd and 4th bases help. But it's mostly unit issues... Being able to wall your natural without a tumor seems to me to be a requirement as essential for ZvZ as having a higher main than natural was for PvP before. Many maps (not only the old maps we are going to have here) have a natural choke that is either way too wide or way too far (or both). And you could go way more in depth concerning other features of the map, such as thinking about favoring air to try to bring back mutas in the current meta or make more chokes to emphasize on positionnal play | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 21 2014 05:53 frazzle wrote: Jaedong at his pinnacle on Akilon. It has been downhill since this game. I take your overated lucky Zerg Kongjwa move and give you the last march of the True King : | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 21 2014 04:33 Mozdk wrote: Mana - Firecake Firecake should suffer terrible pains for having played like this Mana should suffer even worse pains to not have gg'ed out 1 hour before when it was already 100% clear he would never win no matter what. and YOU should suffer the worse pains of all to have unburried this replay  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2014 20:10 OtherWorld wrote: Being able to wall your natural without a tumor seems to me to be a requirement as essential for ZvZ as having a higher main than natural was for PvP before. Many maps (not only the old maps we are going to have here) have a natural choke that is either way too wide or way too far (or both). And you could go way more in depth concerning other features of the map, such as thinking about favoring air to try to bring back mutas in the current meta or make more chokes to emphasize on positionnal play Well, the pylon thing in WoL was really really hurting the MU. I don't think that ZvZ is quite at that level, because you can essentially rule out builds by scouting early. But when it is really impossible to wall like on daedalus, the game can quickly become fucked up. Not sure about mutas. In WoL you could open mutas, because they would do damage and kill the OLs and then you could go right into defensive infestors and catch up in drones. In HotS with the superspores you can't really do damage with few mutas anymore and in essence you are just behind in the roach count afterwards. I think on any map where you can take 3bases, mutas are just an inferior option right now - so on any map. And you'd have to alter the unit and how spore/hydra/infestor works against them if you wanted to have some healthy mutalisk play. Imo, ZvZ would need an infestor with +10vs armored or bio fungals or something like that, a partly reverse on the spore crawler buff and rolling in mutalisk regeneration partly (like to 0.5-0.75 instead of 1). And something to make early game scouting better, OL buff 3.0. :D | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 21 2014 19:52 Big J wrote: I think there is not a lot you can do mapwise for ZvZ. Make the natural choke tight and covered with creep without a tumor. Make it so that queens can somewhat easily walk between natural and main. If you want to make roach fights more interesting, chokes in front of 3rd and 4th bases help. But it's mostly unit issues... I want maps that can stop speedling allin without having to do the same thing as them which is cutting drones etc... on some map you can't go gasless without gambling. When i see that i'm going to play ZvZ on merry go round i start getting pissed before i can see my hatchery. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On October 21 2014 20:10 OtherWorld wrote: Being able to wall your natural without a tumor seems to me to be a requirement as essential for ZvZ as having a higher main than natural was for PvP before. Many maps (not only the old maps we are going to have here) have a natural choke that is either way too wide or way too far (or both). And you could go way more in depth concerning other features of the map, such as thinking about favoring air to try to bring back mutas in the current meta or make more chokes to emphasize on positionnal play It's sad that mapmakers/Blizzard don't think more about this. I don't care if you want to make a crazy map with only gold expansion or sick air space etc, but atleast make a natural that can be walled off without a creep tumor so people can open how they like to open and give people a lot more choices. Playing ZvZ on maps like Merry Go Round is just so freaking boring because you know that both people will have to open 1 base or hatch gas pool into ling bane, and it's extra painful if you don't enjoy playing that style. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On October 21 2014 20:56 Zheryn wrote: It's sad that mapmakers/Blizzard don't think more about this. I don't care if you want to make a crazy map with only gold expansion or sick air space etc, but atleast make a natural that can be walled off without a creep tumor so people can open how they like to open and give people a lot more choices. Playing ZvZ on maps like Merry Go Round is just so freaking boring because you know that both people will have to open 1 base or hatch gas pool into ling bane, and it's extra painful if you don't enjoy playing that style. pff, you know what's even more sad? that nobody gives a flying fuck about what we do in the first place. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2014 20:56 Zheryn wrote: It's sad that mapmakers/Blizzard don't think more about this. I don't care if you want to make a crazy map with only gold expansion or sick air space etc, but atleast make a natural that can be walled off without a creep tumor so people can open how they like to open and give people a lot more choices. Playing ZvZ on maps like Merry Go Round is just so freaking boring because you know that both people will have to open 1 base or hatch gas pool into ling bane, and it's extra painful if you don't enjoy playing that style. It's not quite like that. You hold basically everything if you just can confirm if it is coming, which is the hard part: Even when you open pool first and sac a pair of zerglings right away it is possible to block them at the ramp and then you are blind about the opponents speed/baneling timings. And watching the drone count at the natural isn't that helpful early, because higher drone numbers can mean transfer or droning - not to mention that you cannot even watch the drone count at the natural on all maps. But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. I think it is just really hard to cater to early game ZvZ, and even if you did, you couldn't really prevent that mass speedling/baneling aggression has a good chance of succeeding in either killing you, or making you lose so much money to hold (that early wall on maps where you can build it just costs so much). But yes, obviously naturals as MGR or Daedalus do their part in making it even harder to enjoy. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote: But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 21 2014 21:48 Big J wrote: It's not quite like that. You hold basically everything if you just can confirm if it is coming, which is the hard part: Even when you open pool first and sac a pair of zerglings right away it is possible to block them at the ramp and then you are blind about the opponents speed/baneling timings. And watching the drone count at the natural isn't that helpful early, because higher drone numbers can mean transfer or droning - not to mention that you cannot even watch the drone count at the natural on all maps. But in general I'd recommend everybody to open with gas anyways, which is why I'm not that sold on the need to cater to gasless builds. They aren't that good to begin with. I think it is just really hard to cater to early game ZvZ, and even if you did, you couldn't really prevent that mass speedling/baneling aggression has a good chance of succeeding in either killing you, or making you lose so much money to hold (that early wall on maps where you can build it just costs so much). But yes, obviously naturals as MGR or Daedalus do their part in making it even harder to enjoy. I hate opening gas because then you go into ling / bane wars and the player with the bad injects wins because "Inject, switch back to army, all army dead because the guy wasn't injecting and killed all your lings with a bane" or something like that. Now i go roach rush, or proxy hatch on merry go round :p Merry go round is stupid. The amount of 8 pool i took with the guy spotting me first and me spotting him last.... | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On October 21 2014 22:11 Zheryn wrote: This is what I'm talking about. You don't like gasless builds and think they are not that good, while I like to open gasless and think they are good. So if the maps would allow both of us to play the way we believe in and show our own playstyle, it would be way more interesting rather than forcing us both to play the same style. Maps like Overgrowth are a good example of a map that allows different styles. It's really common to see gas openers here but gasless is also good here so you end up with a lot different scenarios. I agree here. A good (standard) map is a map that allows for a maximum of different styles, without any being broken in one way or the other. It can favor a style, but not make it so favorable that using another style is basically jumping from the fifth floor and hoping there's something to absorb your fall. Following that reasoning, in ZvZ, maps like Akilon or MGR are terrible because a gas opening is so favored (MGR is even more terrible in that regard that you can't scout reliably due to the 3 spawns), while Overgrowth is the exact opposite. | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On October 22 2014 00:08 Yonnua wrote: So who knows when the last map is revealed? They haven't published a date that I've seen so maybe it'll be announced at Blizzcon? (Steppes of War Panel incoming). What's next for SC2 is just a bunch of variants of Steppes being announced | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
On October 22 2014 00:14 The_Templar wrote: What's next for SC2 is just a bunch of variants of Steppes being announced The 2015 map pool is Steppes of Agria, Steppes of Braxis, Steppes of Browder, Steppes of Haven, Steppes of Shakuras, Steppes of Tarsonis and Steppes of Steppes. | ||
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r1flEx
Belgium256 Posts
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