On August 15 2014 08:41 3clipse wrote: This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
I said it earlier in the thread, you can't win either way, if you disclose your financials like Destiny did the argument from the community will be "You kept sponsors money for yourself? You're wrong and you're evil"
But if Destiny DIDN'T disclose, I can pretty much bet on here or Reddit the argument would've been made of "We the community funded this tournament, we have a right to know things. You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why the outsiders say the SC scene is dying
Yea... if not the SC scene I think this thread is dead. It's just a bunch of people trying to troll others with hearsay (rather than posting primary denouements) into believing they're right.
On August 15 2014 08:41 3clipse wrote: This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
I said it earlier in the thread, you can't win either way, if you disclose your financials like Destiny did the argument from the community will be "You kept sponsors money for yourself? You're wrong and you're evil"
And those are the people you know you can safely ignore for the rest of your life. The kind of people that just expect someone to do all this work for nothing, simply to amuse them.
Anyway, nice write up, especially the bit at the end. I don't think people realize just how much fucking work it takes to organize and then run a tournament, even a "relatively" small one like yours. Especially when you are the one doing ALL of the heavy lifting.
I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
Now the purpose of the thread has changes to a he said, she said thing. Either way destiny you look like a child responding this way to little things. It's kinda silly
I disagree. It looks to me like he's just becoming exasperated explaining everything for the fucking millionth time to people who are too busy whining to try and understand what Destiny actually planned and said and did. He was as transparent and straightforward as possible, and a few people (fortunately just a vocal minority) are still hating on him because they just don't pay any attention. In particular, Crot4le and LeeJohnDong are just being ignorant jerks.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
People don't know the difference between transparency and disclosing private discourse between businesses.
Posting private emails isn't being transparent. Destiny stated all the reasons why he wanted KESPA players to play (being transparent) all he had to say was that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability (somewhat true) or just that they declined.
Being transparent is stating why you are doing what you are doing not airing out your laundry.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
It wasn't under NDA.
Destiny have done nothing wrong.
I didn't say he did anything illegal, I just said it was very unprofessional to post emails like that publicly. It just sets a really bad tone, especially with someone you're trying to start a business relationship with. Life is a lot more than just whether something is against the law or not.
I mean, just look at the response he got from his KeSPA contact...
edit: Sorry, that's the last I'll say about it. This is detracting from the conversation on the overall great success of the tournament.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
On August 15 2014 12:01 TeslasPigeon wrote: People don't know the difference between transparency and disclosing private discourse between businesses.
Posting private emails isn't being transparent. Destiny stated all the reasons why he wanted KESPA players to play (being transparent) all he had to say was that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability (somewhat true) or just that they declined.
Being transparent is stating why you are doing what you are doing not airing out your laundry.
It wasn't laundry, it wasn't a private discourse (a private discourse between businesses can be identified by the NDA that accompanies it) and it was not enough to simply say "that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability" (which he did, even before the tournament).
Oh and being transparent means being *transparent*, by giving proofs and details for everything, so that nothing is left in doubt. That's precisely what he did.
Do you think the people who find a way to bitch over the few bucks he made would not have bitched about the lack of transparency about this? He chose to be transparent, so the bitching is about this. And I hope he keeps doing the same. As far as I'm concerned, he (mostly) single-handedly put up one of the most entertaining tournaments in a *long* time, and he should be thanked and congratulated. Not flamed for details that are only vaguely wrong from some particular, and not necessarily well informed, points of view.
It might have ruffled the feathers of some politically-correct zealots, and that's a fight you can't win, but most are probably just bitching for the sake of bitching. And that's also a fight you can't win. Just ignore.
I was never a fan of 2010 to 2012 destiny I can say that honestly. I even meet him when I was casting a tournament during that time and wasn't impressed with how unapproachable he seemed at the time.
That said, I've been impressed with how he's handled himself over the last say year or so of time. If he took the time to create organize and cast a tournament as he did, I'd estimate he probably sunk something closer to a months work of normal work days into it (at least). Everything that goes into a tournament doesn't happen by osmosis. It requires contacting a lot of people to do a lot of things, managing all the cogs of that machine, and making it all come together come show time to work properly. Which is also a lot of risk as he was the brand that would sink or float on the failure or success of the tournament. If he took home 2 or 3 grand for it all at the end it would probably just barely justify the time cost put into it.
On August 13 2014 17:58 -Archangel- wrote: For a guy that wants to do crowdfunding in the future, you really should not talk to the "crowd" in such a way.
I'm not addressing "the crowd", though.
If someone honestly thinks my communications with KeSPA have been horribly disrespectful and that I'm completely in the wrong, I doubt they'd contribute in the future anyway, no?
I don't think I've said anything especially egregious in this thread towards any parties, regardless.
I think that it would be foolish to close the door to KeSPA forever, and I think your tournament was successful enough that you can thrive without them (especially if we see more EU - US rivalry). Perhaps let Destiny 2 play out, as you've already said on Chanman, and see if the support is really there and then use that as leverage to culminate in a fantastic D3 with some KeSPA players to really blow up the tourny!
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
Now the purpose of the thread has changes to a he said, she said thing. Either way destiny you look like a child responding this way to little things. It's kinda silly
Now aren't we all silly here doing silly things such as responding to other's silly comments.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1g800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
Don't worry, I don't like myself either.
And I guess it's not paranoia if people are really out to get you? I can understand being sensitive if every 10th message you get is psychopathic, even if from the community's perspective it's a tiny minority. Though I did feel some exasperation after destiny's endless off-hand comments on unfiltered about people thinking he stole the money and scammed the community, even if no one serious feels that way.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
EPT
