I'm going to break down the finances and viewership from this tournament. We'll talk about a few different topics and I'll do a lot of polling at the end to see if I can gauge how the community feels about a few topics.
Crowd Funding
Sponsorships
KeSPA
Viewership
My website
Planning
Crowd Funding
The Indiegogo I launched for the tournament was a massive success. I was able to cover all of the costs of the tournament in a single Indiegogo, and there was even $409 left over to fund a future tournament, if I were to have one. After seeing the viewership numbers for this tournament, that's a definite yes.
Indiegogo funding data
There was about $5,500 raised from the Indiegogo when you account for the final fees it cost me to send the money to the players and workers I had organized for the event.
Pros
It's very easy to raise a large amount of money via crowd funding without having to bend over backwards to please a sponsor. It only took 281 people to fund this an entire tournament. That's only 1% of the people who were watching on the day of the finals.
It also means less restrictions on the tournament, since I won't have to include sponsor logos on artwork and shoutouts during downtime. Unless there's a particular sponsor that I feel very, very strongly about, I think I'd prefer to stick with crowd sourcing as an exclusive means to funding the tournaments from now on.
The fund-raiser itself can be used as part of the hype for the tournament. People get excited to see the Indiegogo go up and it generates conversion about the tournament, especially as the Indiegogo both reaches its goal and comes to a close.
I think funding my second tournament with an Indiegogo will be much easier than this one, and I think I can shoot for a higher dollar amount (maybe $10,000?) since the concept has already been at least somewhat proven.
Cons
It's very, very important to manage your image very carefully while crowd sourcing a tournament. I think the potential to be seen as a 'beggar" or a "charity case" represents a real threat to the image of the tournament and the person/organization hosting it.
You have to be very transparent with your finances. For me, personally, this isn't a con as I enjoy high transparency, but some people may be uncomfortable if they realize how much money is going into the hands of casters, organizers, artists, etc...I think that this con can easily be managed with the proper dialogue (as most negatives in life can be unless you're inept with your PR - I'm looking at you, MLG) between the organizers and the community.
When you crowd fund, you don't get to build relationships with sponsors that could otherwise come in handy for other projects down the road.
The perk system, although it can be nice in raising money, means more commitment from the organizer (me, in this case) to deliver on promises that may not necessarily benefit the tournament itself. This means, inevitably, time taken away from organizing the tournament to issue out perk rewards. I'm not sure if I'll want to do message read-outs in between series anymore, though they do add a unique flair to the tournament. I also have yet to fulfill the lesson scheduling perk.
Going forward
As I said earlier, I think I'll try to crowd fund the entire next tournament. I don't think there's much I can change in regards to crowd funding as it seems to have been a huge success.
One thing that I have to consider for future tournaments is "How much money do I want to make running a tournament?" It's a difficult question to put an exact figure on because some people might feel the amount I make would be far, far too high, leaving them unwilling to contribute towards an Indiegogo. Another potential problem is, say I decide I want to make $2,000 running a $10,000 tournament so I launch an Indiegogo, people may only fund up to $10,000 and leave the rest unfunded, thinking "Well, that's literally just money I'm donating to Destiny anyway!" It's important that I convey enough personal value in order to justify whatever amount I end up deciding I want to make for putting together a tournament like this so that there's not public resentment for crowd funding my salary.
Sponsorships for this tournament were pretty much charity contributions in the beginning, to be honest. No one that approached me with a sponsorship opportunity had any idea what the viewer turnout was going to be for the event, so I was very grateful when some did approach me.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Pros
Obviously the more sponsors you raise, the more money you get. This eases the burden of trying to crowd fund the tournament.
The connections you build with sponsors and your ability to advertise and show a real return for sponsors establishes valuable networks and connections down the line.
Cons
It can hurt the feel of the tournament artwork to integrate logos and branding.
You can be somewhat restricted on content depending on what sponsors you have.
Awkward scenarios can arise where you're promoting brands/sponsors of a tournament that conflict with other players' teams and potential casters. Would iNcontroL have been able to cast in my tournament if Red Bull was a main sponsor?
Going forward
I'm not sure if I'm going to reach out to sponsors or accept sponsorships for the next event, although I may change my mind based on how the crowd funding goes.
My engagement with most of my sponsors was very good for this event, I feel. Most of them were happy with how the event turned out. Again, this doesn't mean too much in regards to future partnerships as these guys were all pretty much donating the money to the tournament.
The "viewer hand-off" perk might be something I'll look into further on down the line. It seems like I could easily raise the value of that "perk" to say, $200 or even $300. Some streamers that have never had more than a handful of viewers found themselves with an audience of thousands. I think there's an opportunity to market this in the future to easily secure $1,000+ for the next event.
KeSPA
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Courtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event.
Pros
Having KeSPA players at my event would almost undeniably bolster viewership.
KeSPA players at my event would make it a bit more relevant to the overall scene. Koreans who were previously uninterested in my tournament might become interested.
Building good relationships with KeSPA open the doors for a lot of things down the line, including access to their players/media networks.
Cons
I hate that they completely skipped the first tournament because they were "worried it wasn't worth their time" and then might jump in on the second one.
I don't like to condone selfish and damaging behavior in the e-sports community.
Going forward
I'm still not decided on how I'll approach this issue.
I was very, very, very happy with how viewership turned out with this event. I had originally posted some very conservative estimates on what I was expecting viewership to be, and I didn't even think 10k+ was possible on the 9th/10th. So all in all, the viewership was absolutely phenomenal, compared what I was expecting.
I would have never dreamed of having numbers these good after only my first event. I'm incredibly grateful for everyone who tuned in and I hope you guys had as much fun watching this as I did putting it on.
My Website
I had the Twitch.TV chat locked for pretty much the entire tournament in an effort to get people to utilize my website more. I really like the chat system crafted for me (courtesy of my web designer, CeneZa, and the chat developer, sztanpet). I prefer HTML5/websockets a trillion times over anything flash-related. I also think my chat offers better features (tab completion on names, highlighted text if someone is talking to you, auto-loading of previous text if you enter chat, just to name a few) than Twitch's so I wanted to heavily promote it.
I had really decent conversion for people actually watching from my website, I think. During the finals when I had about 20,000 people I saw around 6,000 actively in my chat, which I think is awesome.
Pros
Increases awareness of my personal website.
Higher chance to convert casual stream viewer to a personal fan if they enjoy the website and the community.
Careful control over moderating my own chat. I have the ability to IP ban people if necessary, something I don't have in Twitch's chat.
Stability is better in my chat with more people typing in it vs Twitch chat. Flash is absolutely terrible when you scale it up to the thousands of viewers.
Cons
A lot of people who don't want to view my site may just sit on Twitch and never participate in the chat at all.
There are still some people who in the world who believe reading with a black background is hard on the eyes. ._.
Going forward
I'll probably base whether or not I exclusively use my site's chat on community feedback.
I'm including a little section here on the planning/work that went into coordinating the tournament since more than a couple people have called into question the amount of money I made. It feels a little awkward justifying this because I feel incredibly lucky to be making a living doing video games, period, but I do think $1,800 was an entirely reasonable amount for the work I did, if not a little on the low end.
I threw away one of the notebooks I was sketching ideas out in. This doesn't include all of the notepads I've got on my desktop with information/ideas scattered across them. The pages laying here are all covered back to front with information/ideas/thoughts about the tournament.
I was the sole person responsible for putting the tournament together. I did all of the planning. I coordinated with the artist (MinnyMausGG, who did an AMAZING job!). I gave direction to the website developer. I set up the Indiegogo. I submitted the TL calendar links. I did 100% of the production and streaming (save for the day Totalbiscuit helped due to lag issues). I was the sole point of contact for the sponsors. I procured an admin who could speak fluent Korean and English. I coordinated with several foreign casters so that they could cast my event (and make money off of it without owing me anything). I coordinated dates with several team owners and players so I could maximize the amount of invited players I could have playing in my tournament. I reached out and invited the players I wanted for the tournament. I put my own name behind the tournament and risked my own brand to make sure it went off successfully.
It sounds really petty of me to write it all down like this, and I'm not trying to sound haughty or arrogant, but I did a bit more than "just casted 6 days" to get this tournament working properly. I'd throw the .txt's I have sitting on my desktop but a lot of the original information is lost since I was heavily editing them throughout the tournament. _________
If you feel like there was something I missed or some more data or information you want, feel free to leave it in the comments below and I'll address it and edit my post accordingly. Still functioning on very little sleep, so I'm sure there's some information I missed.
I honestly don't see that what Kespa did was bad in any way at all. You were inexperienced your first tournament, next tournament will be during proleague downtime and you can point to the success of this one and then they will come. I think for an organization like Kespa to be a bit careful is a good thing, you're more dependent on them than the other way around after all.
Furthermore, why try to punish players involved with Kespa by denying them?
Kudos for the transparency. This earns you a lot of respect in my book (especially seeing as how only you and TB seem to be doing that). Thank you for a great tournament, I'm looking forward to the next one.
I think you should consider running ads (not many) during longer brakes (between series, perhaps). I don't think many people would mind and it would definitely provide a financial boost to you / the tournament (whichever you see fit).
Damn that Kespa mail is terrible o_o why would they deny their players potentially "easy" money, even if they send "lower" tier players? Now they sure have benefited a lot coming out as douches for denying the viewers potentially great games... Anyway, the event was really great. Maybe it's your chance to get a sennheiser sponsorship. heh
Good stuff Destiny. For KeSPA not sure what to do there, the players didn't particularily say no to you, the organization did. A sins of the father kind of thing almost.
I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
Appreciate the transparency. Going forward regarding KeSPA players, I think it's a tough bind but in the end, refusing them to participate doesn't hurt KeSPA as much as its players, who usually already have few opportunities to show themselves outside of Proleague and the GSL. The players were not the ones that decided they didn't want to play until it was an established brand; those were the sponsors that the players really have no influence over.
Awesome write-up! Thanks for being so transparent.
I think the crowdfunding for a one-off tourney like this is a great way to go (see TI3/TI4 as well). As someone who funded the Indiegogo, I have no problem giving you money for the tourney, but the perks were a bit lackluster for just someone casual. I'd love to pimp out your tourney some more, or your brand, or SC2 in general. If there were stupid simple physical perks, like stickers or something, I'd love that a lot more, rather than just a shout out on stream. I'm sure there a lot of logistics that'd go into this, but it might be something that generates a bit more funding.
Really interesting read! I like the "2014 Destiny" XD Pretty lame for KeSPA to avoid your tournament and most likely not even asking the players if they wanted to play...
Great to see this kind of crowd funded tournament have such success. I'm not sure what harm KeSPA could have had from letting them compete. Seems like win win to me. Some possible extra money to compete online.
This was a really fantastic event, and I was incredibly happy that I was able to come on as a sponsor. I definitely hope you will leave the door open for future sponsorships in the future :D
Plus, any event with HuK performing well is a good event in my book!
Great post, I really appreciate the total transparency. I can't really imagine people being upset about you making some money off of this in the future, the amount of work that goes in is immense and not taking any salary from would mean potentially weeks of works with no monetization. It's not feasible.
The numbers kind of blew me away, 27k is pretty fantastic. I would recommend maybe staying on a lower number of casters next time, if possible, giving people some time to really get a feel for the pairings. I think two days with Goeff, Nahan or John would have been just fine.
If you can get Kespa that's nice, but not to te poin where you have to bend over backwards for them. If we can get nigh on 30k with the players you had, I say that's more than okay.
Great job on the tournament and a great read. Not sure what to do about the Kespa situation. I guess that even though they were a bit arrogant the pros outweigh the cons. I wouldn't overdo it, just let them fight in a qualifier for a few of the spots
Thank you for being transparent with all this info, and of course for organizing/hosting. I haven't been able to tune in every day, but I did enjoy the days that I was able to. 2014 Destiny, best Destiny.
I think the "you benefit far more more by using by using our players to market your event and gain viewership" is one of the most petty answers I've ever heard. I mean it's not as if there was any danger of the players not being payed, the whole event was 100% crowd-funded beforehand. And it's not as if there was too little money on the line, I think a lot of players (including many from Kespa) would've been willing to play if given the chance. It's purely because they believe that Destiny would get the better end of the deal, if they allow their players to participate.
But who knows, perhaps the answer was a bad wording issue, like when chudd claimed that WEC never contacted either Kespa nor the teams.
As a pure selfish POV, i want kespa players competing in as many tournaments as possible. People like Flash would significantly increase the viewership, too. Is there any way to contact the players directly?
Wow, every time I think KeSPA is pretty cool they give me a reason to dislike them again..., still I think you should have them on board next time if possible. Sure KeSPA can be a pain, but the players are not at fault and should get their chance. They also make the tournament a lot more exciting.
Thanks for the detailed report and for an amazing tournament! Good luck with Destiny II .
I liked this event a lot, and I definitely think KeSPA are ridiculously overbearing when it comes to micro-managing their players... That being said:
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I really don't see anything wrong with them saying "We dont have anything to go by in terms of previous work from you, so we will make our decision based on how you do with this event". I can see the logic in their decisions, kind of... it just feels like they are acting as if they were representing, I dont know, NFL athletes or something.
Great writeup, great event. I really look forward to seeing more of these and I'll be more than happy to contribute.
Also interesting with the Kespa stuff... I say if Kespa players want to play, you shouldn't deny them just because of the dickishness of Kespa themselves. I think it would be great to see them competing in Destiny II!
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
On August 12 2014 00:01 Musicus wrote: Wow, every time I think KeSPA is pretty cool they give me a reason to dislike them again..., still I think you should have them on board next time if possible. Sure KeSPA can be a pain, but the players are not at fault and should get their chance. They also make the tournament a lot more exciting.
Thanks for the detailed report and for an amazing tournament! Good luck with Destiny II .
I think it depends on what it takes for them to participate. If they want to participate, then let them, that will be awesome. But don't go too out of your way just to please Kespa.
On August 11 2014 23:59 TheWinks wrote: I don't understand getting sponsors when the only goal for getting them was Destiny's paycheck.
What exactly is wrong with that? It's a bad thing that he's making a little bit of money after putting the time and effort in to organize the event?
I will openly admit back in the day I was a Destiny hater, but recently and especially after this tournament I've gained a lot of respect for him and have grown to like him. I see no problem with someone making some money after spending the time and energy too organize an event. He even said the 500$ left from the crowdfunding is going to the next tourny only the sponsor money went to his pockets.
I like this transperancy, it does reflect well on both you personally, and this and future tournaments, although I can't put anything on what KESPA responded, as if you had had their players involved, they would also have to bear the burden if it had turned out poorly, which it didn't so perhaps for the next tournament they will be more willing to compromise in a way.
Crowd-funding is definitely an independant way for you to keep the economy behind the event transparent, but mixing crowd funding up with sponsors would be in almost everyone's favor in my opinion.
Overall this worked out well, and I would happily support a future tournament.
It's not the players fault that Kespa are highly strung, and you got to crawl before you walk (it is not personal just business). Anyway great job on tourney.
On August 11 2014 23:59 TheWinks wrote: I don't understand getting sponsors when the only goal for getting them was Destiny's paycheck.
Perhaps you should try reading the OP more carefully a second time and you won't be so confused.
"I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament."
"Pros •Obviously the more sponsors you raise, the more money you get. This eases the burden of trying to crowd fund the tournament."
If the sponsors were done before the crowd funding, this relationship would make sense. They weren't, so it was purely "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament".
On August 12 2014 00:04 Necro)Phagist( wrote: What exactly is wrong with that? It's a bad thing that he's making a little bit of money after putting the time and effort in to organize the event?.
A lot of people gave a lot of money and free time for this tournament. Frankly, taking such a large chunk of money from it seems to go against the entire goal of a crowd funded tournament. Heck, TB basically saved the tournament on one day.
I think your overreacting a bit to what Kespe are saying. It feels more comparable to a job interviewer asking a job seeker why he should hire you. I think what he was looking for was mostly good arguments for you, and it didn't seem impossible that you could have convinced them.
I definitely wouldn't give up on them, and I think for the next tournament viewer numbers will decline if you don't invite them as I believe it will be hard to sustain the same leve of hype for the next tournaments with a similar quality of lineup.
Yeah gogo for Destiny II ! And don't invite Kespa, they went full assholes and tbf except a bunch that will anyway never play (Flash I'm look at you), non-kespa players like Taeja, Innovation or Jeadong are more popular, so they'll bring more viewers.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
He raised funding, organized, promoted, and ran the tournament. $300 a day (if he worked 6 days office hours, which is obviously not the case) for that much responsibility in any entertainment/media field is nothing.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
You are gravely underestimating the amount of work that goes into something like this. You can have opinion on whether his salary was justified and that's fine, but uou are completely off the mark with your comments on the amount of time and energy you have to put into something like this.
On August 12 2014 00:05 Faust852 wrote: Yeah gogo for Destiny II ! And don't invite Kespa, they went full assholes and tbf except a bunch that will anyway never play (Flash I'm look at you), non-kespa players like Taeja, Innovation or Jeadong are more popular, so they'll bring more viewers.
And even if he plays, you sure he will allow you to cast his games?
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
seriously? $1800 is a *tiny* amount for him to take home for all his work. And I WAS one of the sponsors here. Would I have been upset if he had decided to put my money towards the next event? Of course not? Am I upset that he kept it as his pay? Hell no. He earned it.
On August 11 2014 23:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Appreciate the transparency. Going forward regarding KeSPA players, I think it's a tough bind but in the end, refusing them to participate doesn't hurt KeSPA as much as its players, who usually already have few opportunities to show themselves outside of Proleague and the GSL. The players were not the ones that decided they didn't want to play until it was an established brand; those were the sponsors that the players really have no influence over.
I agree with this completely. You will be helping players gain popularity, not just Kespa. The community is made up of players hoping to gain fame and make money through tournament play. This will allow, not only Kespa, players to gain fame/recognition for going up against stronger opponents.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
Disagree with this 100%. Guy's gotta make a living, and he went through the trouble organizing all of it. I'm pretty sure he spent A LOT more than 6 days total on it.
Also, if other people in the community realize that money can be made off of things like this, hopefully more will be inclined to try it.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
He raised funding, organized, promoted, and ran the tournament. $300 a day (if he worked 6 days office hours, which is obviously not the case) for that much responsibility in any entertainment/media field is nothing.
Maybe you should have picked a better major.
Ouch.
But I agree that 1k8$/week isn't that much for the work done.
I really wish I had been able to watch more of it. It seems like you put in a ton of effort Steven and I think you did a phenomenal job. KeSPA sucks for doing that to you (although I did still vote that you should include KeSPA players in your next tournament), but you were even more successful than you planned on being.
I definitely plan on checking out a lot of the vods when I have free time. I saw a lot of the games and there were some cool upsets. I hope that your next tournament is even more successful than Destiny I.
While I've never been a huge Destiny fan in general I really enjoyed this tournament. I did not contribute to the Indigogo for the first but I could see myself kicking over $20 or so the next time around. I appreciate him integrating the foreign scene with the domestic NA ladder. It lead to some good results and some good games. Me, personally, I would let KeSPA players in if they're willing. I didn't want to contribute to the Indiegogo the first time because I had no idea what I was getting. Like I said I had no relationship with Destiny outside of his WoL persona which I hated. He has seemed to mature a touch since then and I would gladly contribute for Destiny II. Should I not be allowed to contribute as well because I was reluctant about how you'd manage your first tournament?
On August 11 2014 23:53 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote: How much money did you make from twitch streaming the tournament? Just curious =D
Although ad income from twitch are very low, I think he should've gotten a few hundred dollars. I know someone who streams regularly with 500 viewers, and he gets around 70-120 dollars each month. Destiny streamed with a lot of viewers for quite long periods so that's my estimate...
Also, I think it goes against twitch regulations to tell your twitch-ad income.
I think KESPA's stance is somewhat reasonable. Yeah they didn't bring it in the nicest possible wya, but KESPA doesn't want to be your friend, they are a business.
For the next event I think you should try to get some KESPA players, but maybe ask something in return to? Just to get on a more even footing.
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Curtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event. .
I think you were being incredibly naive to think that you could get KeSPA on board for your first event, with no proven track record, particularly on the weekend of the Proleague finals. KeSPA is a massive and powerful organisation which looks out for its players. You gotta prove yourself first before you can work with them. Do you really think TotalBiscuit would have been able to get players for SHOUTcraft Invitation #5 if it weren't for his experience and proven ability to successfully organise and cast online tournaments and the SHOUTcraft Clan Wars?
To be honest, Destiny. I think you nailed Destiny I. I think you did a fantastic job and I really enjoyed the tournament and the format. I also think you responded well to the stress of the situation brought by that asswipe posing as casters. So going forward I think you have proven yourself to some extent. Maybe not enough to fully convince KeSPA yet but who knows?
KeSPA's original reaction doesn't surprise me at all and I sincerely hope that your pride doesn't get in the way of you building positive and constructive links with KeSPA. I think if you continue what your doing then you could get KeSPA on board and that will only benefit your tournament, your brand and the community. Players like Zest, Flash, Maru, soO and Soulkey would do fucking amazingly for your tournament. Imagine if it was the Destiny II or Destiny III that we got to finally see Flash vs Jaedong for the first time in fucking ages? The hype would be through the roof.
Please Destiny, build bridges with KeSPA because I think it will be the benefit of all parties if you managed to get them on side.
Just to let you know that although I usually participate in crowdfunding projects, I didn't partake in the crowdfunding for Destiny I because I was uncertain how it was to pan out. I will certainly be contributing to Destiny II however.
Awesome work, Destiny. Love the transparency, love the model, loved the tournament. Looking forward to Destiny II
If you do make the second tournament prize pool worth more money, would you consider a slightly larger bracket (more players and games for more money, probably at the expense of a lot more of your time)?
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
where did u get "6 days of work" part, because making something with this kind of production value does not simply include you showing up at the event and casting. hell, ignore production, just with the perks system, he won't be done with it for weeks afterwards.
just because tournament is online doesnt mean you turn your pc on and cast, think before you write.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
I don't think you get the amount of work that went into this tournament and how much money you'd make for this kind of work in other media/entertainment/sports areas.
Also to be frank, what would kespa's benefit be for sending player ?
Does the word "send" is generally used for an online event ? It's just seems weird to me :/
KeSPA views their players as part of their brand. I believe in KeSPA's eyes if they allow their players to enter and participate in any old tournament it dilutes the brand. I can't say I disagree with them. Tournaments get far more hype when KeSPA players are involved.
They're using send as participate. I can understand their usage of the word send.
On August 11 2014 23:53 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote: How much money did you make from twitch streaming the tournament? Just curious =D
Although ad income from twitch are very low, I think he should've gotten a few hundred dollars. I know someone who streams regularly with 500 viewers, and he gets around 70-120 dollars each month. Destiny streamed with a lot of viewers for quite long periods so that's my estimate...
Also, I think it goes against twitch regulations to tell your twitch-ad income.
He did not run a single ad during the tournament, as this was a crowdfunded project .
Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, but reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
Thanks for organizing the tournament, Destiny. It was a big success.
You should definitely invite Kespa next tournament and continue to work on your relation with them. Their role is to protect the interests of the teams and players, but sometimes they overdo things (you know, like giving penalties for mistyping "GG" or "pppp"). Give them some time to get used to your style .
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Curtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event. .
I think you were being incredibly naive to think that you could get KeSPA on board for your first event, with no proven track record, particularly on the weekend of the Proleague finals. KeSPA is a massive and powerful organisation which looks out for its players. You gotta prove yourself first before you can work with them. Do you really think TotalBiscuit would have been able to get players for SHOUTcraft Invitation #5 if it weren't for his experience and proven ability to successfully organise and cast online tournaments and the SHOUTcraft Clan Wars?
To be honest, Destiny. I think you nailed Destiny I. I think you did a fantastic job and I really enjoyed the tournament and the format. I also think you responded well to the stress of the situation brought by that asswipe posing as casters. So going forward I think you have proven yourself to some extent. Maybe not enough to fully convince KeSPA yet but who knows?
KeSPA's original reaction doesn't surprise me at all and I sincerely hope that your pride doesn't get in the way of you building positive and constructive links with KeSPA. I think if you continue what your doing then you could get KeSPA on board and that will only benefit your tournament, your brand and the community. Players like Zest, Flash, Maru, soO and Soulkey would do fucking amazingly for your tournament. Imagine if it was the Destiny II or Destiny III that we got to finally see Flash vs Jaedong for the first time in fucking ages? The hype would be through the roof.
Please Destiny, build bridges with KeSPA because I think it will be the benefit of all parties if you managed to get them on side.
Just to let you know that although I usually participate in crowdfunding projects, I didn't partake in the crowdfunding for Destiny I because I was uncertain how it was to pan out. I will certainly be contributing to Destiny II however.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
I think you did great for this tournament Destiny, great work and I look forward to Destiny II.
Maybe to stop the whiners complaining about you taking that $1800 sponsor money however, and in the interest of clarity you could explain how much time this whole thing took to put together and run etc?
Personally I think you earned every penny and not only was the tournament good to watch, but was entertaining with the banter of you and the other casters too. Again, great work man.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
Oh okay. I completely missed that part. Thats what i wanted to hear. Thanks!
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Curtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event. .
I think you were being incredibly naive to think that you could get KeSPA on board for your first event, with no proven track record, particularly on the weekend of the Proleague finals. KeSPA is a massive and powerful organisation which looks out for its players. You gotta prove yourself first before you can work with them. Do you really think TotalBiscuit would have been able to get players for SHOUTcraft Invitation #5 if it weren't for his experience and proven ability to successfully organise and cast online tournaments and the SHOUTcraft Clan Wars?
To be honest, Destiny. I think you nailed Destiny I. I think you did a fantastic job and I really enjoyed the tournament and the format. I also think you responded well to the stress of the situation brought by that asswipe posing as casters. So going forward I think you have proven yourself to some extent. Maybe not enough to fully convince KeSPA yet but who knows?
KeSPA's original reaction doesn't surprise me at all and I sincerely hope that your pride doesn't get in the way of you building positive and constructive links with KeSPA. I think if you continue what your doing then you could get KeSPA on board and that will only benefit your tournament, your brand and the community. Players like Zest, Flash, Maru, soO and Soulkey would do fucking amazingly for your tournament. Imagine if it was the Destiny II or Destiny III that we got to finally see Flash vs Jaedong for the first time in fucking ages? The hype would be through the roof.
Please Destiny, build bridges with KeSPA because I think it will be the benefit of all parties if you managed to get them on side.
Just to let you know that although I usually participate in crowdfunding projects, I didn't partake in the crowdfunding for Destiny I because I was uncertain how it was to pan out. I will certainly be contributing to Destiny II however.
Great post Crot4le! I hope Destiny tries to be on good terms with KeSPA .
I don't understand getting sponsors when the only goal for getting them was Destiny's paycheck.
really you don't understand people like to earn money pay their bills buy food clothes etc this concept is outside of your ability to understand things??
Think about it this way if he wasn't getting paid for the hell of alot of work he did and the entertainment he brought to us, what would be his motivation to actually run a tournament, he probably spent weeks worth of his personal time setting all this up, then on top of that 5 days straight of casting, I think he deserves anything he can make, he did a great job.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
Fine work on the tournament, Mr. Bonnell, it was fantastic. I am glad people like you uphold transparency and honesty through goals and objectives created for this tournament and future ones.
I wish you luck with Destiny II and hope it is even more successful than this one was.
I think you should just run some ads, destiny, and collect the ads money as a salary for organizing the event. Not sure how much that will be though, if you run, say one ad after every set (and 2 ads per bo5). That few ads certainly won't disturb the viewing experience much.
It was a great tournament, for sure. Good job all around.
I do not understand however why there were no commercials during breaks. It seems to me like that ad revenue is a piece of pie that was denied to everyone. It just irks me because it's so inefficient. I know twitch doesn't pay all that well, but to not use the 20 k heads for the finals to either partly fund the next tournament or your salary is just kind of silly in my opinion. Let the adblockers listen to the beautiful music, and let the rest of us "crowd fund" with that revenue next time is my recommendation.
To be fair, the Majority of Kespa players that are big names wouldn't have been able to compete because of the finals weekend, the rest though.....cant really defend them
get some casters, the final day with Minigun made me skip out on every single game as I simply need a caster "ToD would be fine"
It was a shame that your tournament didn't feel as a proper tournament due to casters and imo the language during the casting was too laidback and some of the language was in my mind too rude towards some players, or they were being made fun of due to their skills or choices. I hope this will change for a future Destiny II tournament, because I like that there are more tournaments like this out there.
On August 11 2014 23:43 Destiny wrote:There are still some people who in the world who believe reading with a black background is hard on the eyes. ._.
Every graphic designer will tell you that light text on dark background is harder to read. You should go for dark grey instead of pure black on ur chat background.
On August 11 2014 23:53 Grumbels wrote: I honestly don't see that what Kespa did was bad in any way at all. You were inexperienced your first tournament, next tournament will be during proleague downtime and you can point to the success of this one and then they will come. I think for an organization like Kespa to be a bit careful is a good thing, you're more dependent on them than the other way around after all.
Furthermore, why try to punish players involved with Kespa by denying them?
Skipping the first tournament is a reasonable choice by them:
Kespa is a brand that gains very little from their players winning money but has a lot to loose if the tournament was a scam - which you have now proven wrong. This may seem very strange initially but Kespa provides services to the plays in return for essentially owning their playing privileges. One of those services is the screening of potential offers of tournament organizers for their players.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
This is pretty ridiculous. EVERY tournament is funded by community. It just depends what payment model you choose. It can be sponsors (sponsors then expect increase in sales, they don't just look at "likes" and "tweets"), it can be kickstarter/indiegogo donations/perks model, or it can be completely behind a pay wall.
There is nothing wrong in building brand and earning money of a tournament. If Destiny continues to use indiegogo I feel completely fine with 10-20$ donations because that's standard price for any kind of pay2watch. For bigger donations perks should be a must. imho it should be <20$ donations and then >200$ valuable perks.
Personally, I donated 10$, and will donate again because to me it's worth it. If Destiny earns money from it, good for him.
As for KESPA, I don't think it can even be a discussion nowadays. I understand emotional side of things, but as things currently stand, it's like 35/50 best players out there are KESPA players. Taking some of them is just a win-win situation, especially if you get to 3rd tournament and figure out you can invite only players that already played instead of some kespa player that started owning in KR but hasn't been seen outside KR. That can become quite a good storyline. By punishing KESPA incompetence you would just be punishing your own tournament so in the end it's not really rational thing to do. People are talking now how kespa should be excluded etc, but wait 3-4 months and viewership for Destiny III will drop significantly because there won't be any novelty in it. Add Flash/Maru/Parting and some newcomer and boom, suddenly everyone watches again.
On August 11 2014 23:53 Grumbels wrote: I honestly don't see that what Kespa did was bad in any way at all. You were inexperienced your first tournament, next tournament will be during proleague downtime and you can point to the success of this one and then they will come. I think for an organization like Kespa to be a bit careful is a good thing, you're more dependent on them than the other way around after all.
Furthermore, why try to punish players involved with Kespa by denying them?
On August 12 2014 00:07 effecto wrote: Transparency is a good way to gain more visibility, good job!
+1 for the pun man.
Otherwise though I would throw my hat in the ring with the pro KESPA side, the benefit of working with them out weighs any negatives. You have proven yourself as a tournament organizer and if in the future they decide to not join with Destiny II, it will be their loss. For the record too, I'm not a KESPA fanboy, but I do support putting the best foreign talent up against some Korean powerhouses.
One more thing I'd like to mention is the prize money for Destiny II. Don't aim too high! People saw you were going to do a tournament for the first time and chipped in, but people don't like to do that too often . Some that didn't donate this time will next time, some that did will not. I am sure you can go for 5k or 6k, but don't go to 10k, especially without sponsors imo. Then you would need at least 12k to pay the casters, staff and get some money yourself. We don't need that much money for an online competition, especially if you want to have several per year.
On August 11 2014 23:43 Destiny wrote:There are still some people who in the world who believe reading with a black background is hard on the eyes. ._.
Every graphic designer will tell you that light text on dark background is harder to read. You should go for dark grey instead of pure black on ur chat background.
Or just put a button on the chat to change to toggle a white background theme if its such a deal for so many people who might have otherwise be interested.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
He raised funding, organized, promoted, and ran the tournament. $300 a day (if he worked 6 days office hours, which is obviously not the case) for that much responsibility in any entertainment/media field is nothing.
Maybe you should have picked a better major.
I don't really think this is a fair comparison. If you go down the crowdfunding route you are essential getting charity. There are many people who do work for charities especially media work, who if they did the same work commerically could expect huge pay for it, but they don't because they are doing charity work.
If he was organising a Dreamhack or going down the sponsor avenue then fair play if you can make a profit off your own back then knock yourself out well-played. But if you go down the donations from the community route then you should be compensated somewhat for your time but after that
But as I said that's just how I feel. And I believe this his how it has been for people like BaseTradeTV (who I think sometimes actually make a loss even!), feardragon64, Wardii, and the OlimoLeague who have all reached out to the community for support.
On August 12 2014 00:03 Jimmeh wrote: Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
I don't really agree with the amount of money you get from your government for sitting at your computer all day long criticizing people who actually put in some effort either, but that's life, isn't it?
On topic: amazing job Destiny, keep it up. And never forget to be and stay yourself!
The problem wouldn't be the reason Kespa gave for denying their players, but the totally denigrating way they gave the reasons. Heck one of the reasons, that kespa would benefit less than the tournament itself doesn't make sense, and speaks of petty vindictiveness. If it turned out that Kespa spoke like that to every tournament organiser, the mystery of why we see so few kespa players outside of proleague will be solved.
A) This was one of the first crowdfunded tournaments. I certainly wouldn't expect to see more funds for the next one...and I'd honestly expect about 25% less. Not because this was bad, but just because you won't have the novelty effect on your side.
B) Focus on sponsors more. For someone that couldn't watch much of the stream due to being busy at work, I could only really recognize one sponser during games (jorg). I think that all of your sponsors should be clearly understood in game. If not via logo, then via text. Why not a ticker tape bar, like in which we see tweets in in other tournaments?
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
You are gravely underestimating the amoun of work that goes into something like this. You can have opinion on whether his salary was justified and that's fine, but uou are completely off the mark with your comments on the amount of time and energy you have to put into something like this.
Destiny is being transparent to allow for this type of discussion, so I don't think its too unreasonable. If he thinks 1800 dollars is justified considering the amount of work he put in, I'm sure he'll allow other people to work as a contractor and organize the tournament for him for $1000, right? I don't think we should discourage discussion about this.
I'm personally not gonna argue about what amount I think is deserved since I think that right is reserved to the sponsors and fans that helped fund this project (I did not contribute). Since he's gonna put together a second tournament, I'm sure all the "investors" will pitch in what they want to happen with their next batch of cash.
Gotta applaud the total transparency though. This is how every crowdfunding project should be documented.
I only want to comment on Kespa players issue. From my personal position - if you don't have Kespa players (or some of my personal favourites) in your tournament, I just don't watch. That's not completely true (I watched some of Destiny I - all the Major games as he is one of my favourites + couple of others and I had it on the background both weekend days for the full duration, although I didn't actually pay attention) but you get the idea - Kespa players are the best, and there is enough Starcraft that I can actually choose to watch only the best.
I have read the email you received and to be honest, I don't see anything wrong with that. You always need to remember what Kespa is made of - it is made of the corporate sponsors. And even though your event is abroad, they cannot be a part of something that may potentially damage their image and/or their brand. And having no history of organising serious tournaments (quite the opposite really, looking at you 2011/2012), I just don't see what's wrong with them not taking risks.
Because in the end, they were completely correct - you benefit much more from their players, then they benefit from you having their players. Of course, since you have now proved that you can actually organize tournaments, I believe they will be more inclined to allow their players to participate in your tournament. Hell, if that happens you can even use it as a great advertisement - 'One of the only tournaments where you can see how foreign heroes will fare against Kespa progamers' (spoiler: not very well). Boom, viewers++;
In any case, I liked what I saw from Destiny I (the graphics were perfect, imo) and I look forward to more from you (this time hopefully with Kespa players included!)
On August 12 2014 00:30 Crot4le wrote: I don't really think this is a fair comparison. If you go down the crowdfunding route you are essential getting charity
You're not getting charity. I paid money for this because I want to pay 10$ to see a tournament. I'm better off with a tournament than with a 10$ in my pocket. Nothing charitable in it, and people need to stop thinking about things in that way.
Stop giving charity and start paying for products that you use.
There is no reason to deny Kespa players, in fact purposefully excluding a set of sc2 players probably goes against your principles.
The guy handing communications with you wasn't particularly diplomatic (in fact, he came across as a grade A tool), but his position was not unreasonable. The message should have been "Our players receive numerous invitations, and unfortunately we cannot accommodate them all. While I believe your tournament will be successful, please understand that it is difficult to favor a new online venture without any history. We would love to continue this discussion for any future Destiny tournaments."
I wasn't able to watch very much of the tournament but I thought it seemed well done especially for someone managing the load alone. First time for anything is always a risk, but the way things went, would like to see a Destiny II, and I'll definitely contribute to the prize pool next time coming.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
This is pretty ridiculous. EVERY tournament is funded by community. It just depends what payment model you choose. It can be sponsors (sponsors then expect increase in sales, they don't just look at "likes" and "tweets"), it can be kickstarter/indiegogo donations/perks model, or it can be completely behind a pay wall.
No. Dreamhack, IEM and Red Bull isn't funded by the community. They are funded by sponsors. All profit they make they have to make through businesses. They don't get donations.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. At the end of the day we've had an awesome tournament so it's up to the people crowdfunding and I'm sure 95% of them are satisfied and will crowdfund again (I'm going to contribute the next one myself). I'm just saying I wouldn't take profit myself from something which is funded by donations. I'd compensate myself expenses
And yes, I have done work for charitable organisations that I do commerically and get paid decent money for which took a lot of time and effort with no pay. Because there's a big difference.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
He raised funding, organized, promoted, and ran the tournament. $300 a day (if he worked 6 days office hours, which is obviously not the case) for that much responsibility in any entertainment/media field is nothing.
Maybe you should have picked a better major.
I don't really think this is a fair comparison. If you go down the crowdfunding route you are essential getting charity. There are many people who do work for charities especially media work, who if they did the same work commerically could expect huge pay for it, but they don't because they are doing charity work.
If he was organising a Dreamhack or going down the sponsor avenue then fair play if you can make a profit off your own back then knock yourself out well-played. But if you go down the donations from the community route then you should be compensated somewhat for your time but after that
But as I said that's just how I feel. And I believe this his how it has been for people like BaseTradeTV (who I think sometimes actually make a loss even!), feardragon64, Wardii, and the OlimoLeague who have all reached out to the community for support.
Wait he didn't take a single cent from the crowdfunding though and the extra 500 bucks go to the next tournament. The money he made came from the sponsor avenue, which, as you said yourself, is fine.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
What? He did far more than 6 days of work for this event and oh by the way, he has to eat and provide for his own family as well.
Successful business enterprises do not run to break even. They run to generate a profit. If he breaks even or loses money, we don't get another tournament.
I watched most of the tournament and I enjoyed it a lot! I probably won't contribute with money if you do another one but hopefully my view is enough ;p
I think there are two things that come to mind when I read this post.
First off, Kespa. I think that they certainly don't seem to opening their arms towards Destiny, however they certainly aren't telling him to fuck off either. Destiny I was hosting during the same week as PL finals, something immensely important for Kespa I'd imagine.
Furthemore, there are several variables that Kespa wasn't sure about, so they decided to "wait and see", I think. I mean, they have control/responsibility over a good portion of the world's top class players, do they really want to "let" these players stay up until 3 AM just to lose maps to a foreigner's 2 gate-proxy in latency? What's in it for Kespa?
Even though they might have been snarky in their first response, I think there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by asking them to participate in Destiny II. Not just because we'll get world class players, but also because it's forging ties between Korea's esports scene and the foreign one. Kespa should realize that capturing the foreign scene could be very beneficial to them, it's up to the big figures of the foreign community to make them realize that, I think. It has to be win-win, not "win for me, it's not like you're losing anything anyway". Maybe even some "free" plugging towards THEIR sponsors?
I think the fact that this was an online tournament also possibly turned off Kespa. Latency is a biggish issue here, I'm not sure how bad the latency is from NA to KR, but if you have several observers in the game, well, meh. EU to KR is unplayable by the way. I'm pretty sure we'll aware that latency played its role in some of the games, which is already a big alarm bell ringing in my opinion. If possible, perhaps have one observer (like it's done in KR) and use teamviewer or something to limit latency issues? I feel that the problems that arise when you're playing an online tournament might have also served to turn off Kespa.
It can hurt the feel of the tournament artwork to integrate logos and branding. You can be somewhat restricted on content depending on what sponsors you have. Awkward scenarios can arise where you're promoting brands/sponsors of a tournament that conflict with other players' teams and potential casters. Would iNcontroL have been able to cast in my tournament if Red Bull was a main sponsor?
I'm not sure if I agree with this, maybe the last point has some weight to it. SPL and GSL integrate logos and branding and they pull it off flawlessly.
I think the biggest argument against the use of sponsors is crowd-funding actually. If you can pull off crowd-funding, then you have no need for sponsors. Channel-plugging, streamer-plugging.
1: People want to see Guns N Broaches! Hence the 20,000+ viewers :p PTSL2 made us hungry for Destiny/Minigun combo.
2: Imo it would seem a bit unfair on the community if you were to expect them to completely fund another tournament and not bother looking for sponsorships.
3: Your reaction to KESPA seems quite petty. You could only gain by them competing in your tournament while they are forced to play with lag and risk losing in front of lots of people to players they possibly regard as weak. Maybe his/her wording was a bit offensive but (s)he did say (s)he was being frank. Personally I would like to see KESPA players in your next tournament.
4: Thank you for running such an enjoyable tournament. I watched every game and I am very grateful. Props for the financial transparency and all the effort you put in.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
The way i read it was that every penny from the crowdfunding was poured into the tournament fee's with nothing given to destiny himself. The money he "took" ($1,800) was from sponsors. Sponsor's he didn't actually need to pay for the tournament.
I don't see a problem with him accepting sponsors to create his own income. At the end of the day everybody wins. All the money people crowdfunded was used specifically for the tournament. Since destiny is using his own "brand" and running everything himself he's entitled to accepting / taking on sponsors despite not needing them for funding, he's the boss. Sponsors get exposure from the tournament. Anything agreed between destiny / sponsors is their business, since all the promises from the crowdfunding were achieved and has nothing to do with it.
At the end of the day - Destiny promised to use the crowdfunding money to run a tournament. He did exactly that and created his own income at nobody elses downfall through offering sponsors exposure.
I added two more sections, one about utilizing my website and one about the planning that went into the tournament, to address some of the questions/concerns being posted. I'll keep adding sections if people are still asking information that isn't readily available in the OP.
sick tournament, sick reports, sick transparency, everything is sick :D already hyped for the next one. and bringin minigun for the final day... absolutely awesome decision, it felt like your good old 2v2s together.
On August 12 2014 00:29 SatedSC2 wrote: On the KeSPA topic, I find it ridiculous that it isn't up to the players to decide what tournaments they do/don't want to play in. Especially when those tournaments are online. It seems strange that KeSPA have such strong control over what those players can/can't do...
It is not ridiculous. Kespa is made out of the corporate sponsor representatives. So they are made out of people who work for SKT, for KT, CJ, JinAir, Samsung etc. The sole reason why these SC2 teams are existing, is to promote the brand of their respective teams. They (as in sponsors) couldn't care less about tournaments with few thousand dollars of winnings. What they want, is to promote their brand. But the thing is - if you are a part of something that goes wrong, your brand is recognized in relation to that - that's probably the biggest reason why BW died in Korea, no corporation wanted to be recognized in relation with something like the match-fixing scandal. That's why they are careful where they send their players - they need to be sure that the reaction will be positive for their brand. And let's face the truth - Destiny with his dickpics, BM etc really is not a pinnacle of positiveness for them.
On August 12 2014 00:37 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the transparency is really nice. I wonder why anyone thinks that $1,800 is too much for the amount of work Destiny put in. He deserved it.
I didn't personally contribute to this one but I probably will for the next one.
This community thinks making a buck from anything in esports is morally wrong.
On August 12 2014 00:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I liked this event a lot, and I definitely think KeSPA are ridiculously overbearing when it comes to micro-managing their players... That being said:
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I really don't see anything wrong with them saying "We dont have anything to go by in terms of previous work from you, so we will make our decision based on how you do with this event". I can see the logic in their decisions, kind of... it just feels like they are acting as if they were representing, I dont know, NFL athletes or something.
I think it also may be a cultural thing. I am going to attempt to keep this short. A former IBM employee, Geert Hofstede gathered a lot of data about different countries cultures (through polling IBM employees, initially) and built "Cultural Dimensions" out of them. The dimension that applies to this case is "Uncertainty Avoidance," which has the USA (Destiny's country) at a score of 46 and South Korea at 85.
"The dimension Uncertainty Avoidance has to do with the way that a society deals with the fact that the future can never be known: should we try to control the future or just let it happen? This ambiguity brings with it anxiety and different cultures have learnt to deal with this anxiety in different ways. The extent to which the members of a culture feel threatened by ambiguous or unknown situations and have created beliefs and institutions that try to avoid these is reflected in the UAI score.
"The US scores below average, with a low score of 46, on the Uncertainty Avoidance dimension. . As a consequence, the perceived context in which Americans find themselves will impact their behaviour more than if the culture would have either scored higher or lower. Thus, this cultural pattern reflects itself as follows:
"There is a fair degree of acceptance for new ideas, innovative products and a willingness to try something new or different, whether it pertains to technology, business practices or food. Americans tend to be more tolerant of ideas or opinions from anyone and allow the freedom of expression. At the same time, Americans do not require a lot of rules and are less emotionally expressive than higher-scoring cultures."
So, Destiny shouldn't take it personally that South Koreans (in general) tend to avoid new situations like this. But, maybe KeSPA are jerks, too.
tl;dr: South Koreans avoid uncertain situations more so than Americans. Understanding culture can be fun. KeSPA might still be jerks.
saying you dont want to damage relationships and then posting an email is kind of ironic dont you think?
talk about being full of yourself, why would kespa send their players to this 1st time tournament? that's like me running a 1st time basketball tournament in buttfuck nowhere and then complaining why NBA wont send their players when i ask nicely.
On August 12 2014 00:36 Crot4le wrote: No. Dreamhack, IEM and Red Bull isn't funded by the community. They are funded by sponsors. All profit they make they have to make through businesses. They don't get donations.
You don't get it. Giving money directly isn't the only way of giving money.
On August 12 2014 00:03 Jimmeh wrote: Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
It's especially funny how people don't take into account all the time that he has to put in to make a brand out of himself. You think someone else here can just say: "woo hoo i'm gonna make a tournament!"? Nope, we can't, but he can. Why? Because of all that time he spends around doing stuff for his promotion. Destiny is tournament organizer but he is also biggest commercial for this tournament. You gotta take those things into account.
Really funny how some of you think so straightforward.
Just a small comment: There should maybe have been a fourth option in the "will you donate next time?" poll. I voted for the middle road because I think I very conceivably could donate, but I doubt it will have anything to do with perks or rewards or anything like that. I will have to consider at the time whether I will donate.
On August 12 2014 00:45 zev318 wrote: saying you dont want to damage relationships and then posting an email is kind of ironic dont you think?
talk about being full of yourself, why would kespa send their players to this 1st time tournament? that's like me running a 1st time basketball tournament in buttfuck nowhere and then complaining why NBA wont send their players when i ask nicely.
Destiny a person who tops the starcraft stream list of players most months isn't comparable to some random creating a tournament, you can see why Kespa didn't want their players to attend and you can see why Destiny is questioning that choice. I agree 50/50 with both sides.
But now destiny has shown his tournament has merit so there shouldn't be any hitch in getting some Kespa players to play.
On August 12 2014 00:36 Crot4le wrote: No. Dreamhack, IEM and Red Bull isn't funded by the community. They are funded by sponsors. All profit they make they have to make through businesses. They don't get donations.
You don't get it. Giving money directly isn't the only way of giving money.
You know this is the second time you have taken a single quote out of a post of mine and deleted the rest of the post which provide the context/eleboration/reasoning for it....
I really enjoyed watching this tournament. Even though I think I remember reading that your initial plan was to have a more serious casting environment, I think the more laid back approach was really nice. It felt like it hit a really nice balance, somewhere between "serious" casting and Homestory Cup style casting. Overall it was a great event, I'd contribute to the next one if I had the spare money.
The people in this thread complaining about you "paying" yourself with the sponsor money seems insane to me. Seems like you put in more than enough work to justify it.
Really happy with how it went. Kind of how I expected it to go to be honest. When you're serious you get shit done man! :D Looking forward to the 2nd tournament and even though I didn't have money this time to throw around, I'll definitely support it next time. Kudo's!
Also some people seem to be thinking a bit ignorantly. He didn't do work for 6 days, he worked for many more hours past those days communicating, setting up, planning, fixing, inviting, preparing his tournament. If something is succesful the organizer or producer deserves a decent slice of cake for it too. We all enjoyed it, didn't we? Nothing was missing and IMO Destiny fully ''deserved'' the $1800 he made for all the work and sleepless nights he put in
I could've removed my post and just repost this I suppose:
On August 12 2014 00:37 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the transparency is really nice. I wonder why anyone thinks that $1,800 is too much for the amount of work Destiny put in. He deserved it.
I didn't personally contribute to this one but I probably will for the next one.
If Destiny doesn't make any money off of this, he wouldn't be planning on doing another one. It's great to give your time and all that, but things don't happen if people don't get paid.
How many tournament series have we seen fail because someone important(players, casters, tournament organizers) wasn't getting paid as they expected, despite great viewership numbers?
Personally, I don't think KESPA response is an issue. As Destiny said himself - even he didn't expect such a large viewership. KESPA is choosing their partners very carefully and Destiny came with an idea of crowdfunded tournament with little sponsorship. To be honest, it didn't look well on the paper. And I think it was quite reasonable decision from KESPA.
I think some of KESPA players could raise viewership even more. However, I hope they do not take too much foreigner spots. I feel foreigner - Korean ratio in this tournament was perfect. We had high level Koreans, we had our favourite foreigners. We had Korean vs foreigner final. Some quite unknown players had a chance to show a good play too. It was perfect. In my opinion too many KESPA players would ruin that, so their number should not be too high. I don't know if KESPA would agree to that, but seeing what a success Destiny I was, I think they really should take part this time.
Also, a bit offtopic, but Destiny-KESPA conversation reminds me one of Game of Thrones scenes I put it in spoiler tag. Warning: Season 4 spoilers
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
On August 12 2014 00:45 zev318 wrote: saying you dont want to damage relationships and then posting an email is kind of ironic dont you think?
talk about being full of yourself, why would kespa send their players to this 1st time tournament? that's like me running a 1st time basketball tournament in buttfuck nowhere and then complaining why NBA wont send their players when i ask nicely.
Destiny a person who tops the starcraft stream list of players most months isn't comparable to some random creating a tournament, you can see why Kespa didn't want their players to attend and you can see why Destiny is questioning that choice. I agree 50/50 with both sides.
But now destiny has shown his tournament has merit so there shouldn't be any hitch in getting some Kespa players to play.
just cause you can stream on twitch for 20 hours a day everyday doesnt automatically guarantee a successful, well-run and profitable (kespa probably cares less about this) tournament.
On August 12 2014 00:37 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the transparency is really nice. I wonder why anyone thinks that $1,800 is too much for the amount of work Destiny put in. He deserved it.
I didn't personally contribute to this one but I probably will for the next one.
For a tournament on the smaller side, that was crowdfunded I think around $2,000 for a week of work seems appropriate. It went rather well, money was made, people enjoyed it. I see no problems here.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
I'm honestly surprised how many people are voting "no" in the Kespa poll. While I'm sure that response hurt you a bit, it doesn't really seem all that unreasonable. Even then, I don't see a reason to punish Kespa players simply because some guy in management questioned the benefits of attending your first tournament. There are only Pros to Kespa players attending future tournaments; your Cons are entirely about how you feel, and have nothing to do with the tournament itself. If it hurt your ego that bad, then I'm sorry to hear that, and you can do what you want. But I'd hope you'd put the tournament quality first rather than carrying out a feud with some random Kespa manager.
Considering the shitty weekend you chose to host your tournament (pro league final, taiwan open and redbull battleground), you had a great viewer number!
Good work! I didn't participate in the crowdfunding, but I did tune in for most of the days. I didn't mind the sponsor logos and stuff at all, and am looking forward to a better Destiny II. The variety of guest casters was a nice touch.
Edit: I would like to add that I love that you produced this candid report. Great analysis.
I Think Destiny and all the casters (Naruto@ take.tv )did great. The tournament was indeed fun to watch. I don't know how the money could be distributed to Destiny and his Co- Casters. Casters from other (language) Streams should not get paid, unless they promote a sponsor for the event. Destiny "earning" about 2000$ Directly + Add Revenue or additional subs + Twitch should be fine. Maybe do two Tipjars? 1. Destiny | 2. Prizepool ?
I am not decided on the KeSpA Thing. Everytime they should interact with another Organization they act arrogant. The Proleague format is plain boring and only picks up excitement during the Play Offs and Finals, at least for me. There are some Koreans opening to the foreign community, and the elitist KeSpA. And somehow they show yet another level of starcraft, if it is pure skill or just the fact that KeSpa is a rather tiny pool of players competing against one another over and over.
On August 12 2014 01:01 plgElwood wrote: I Think Destiny and all the casters (Naruto@ take.tv )did great. The tournament was indeed fun to watch. I don't know how the money could be distributed to Destiny and his Co- Casters. Casters from other (language) Streams should not get paid, unless they promote a sponsor for the event. Destiny "earning" about 2000$ Directly + Add Revenue or additional subs + Twitch should be fine. Maybe do two Tipjars? 1. Destiny | 2. Prizepool ?
I am not decided on the KeSpA Thing. Everytime they should interact with another Organization they act arrogant. The Proleague format is plain boring and only picks up excitement during the Play Offs and Finals, at least for me. There are some Koreans opening to the foreign community, and the elitist KeSpA. And somehow they show yet another level of starcraft, if it is pure skill or just the fact that KeSpa is a rather tiny pool of players competing against one another over and over.
Destiny did not run ads, because of the crowdfunding .
If I was Kespa I would use events like this to send 'b-teamers', give them a chance for tournament exposure and an opportunity to make money. Its not like b-teamers were too involved in pro-league either.
As advice to Destiny, Kespa are notoriously elitist but you should take the moral high ground and not blacklist them, maybe they will learn a lesson. Also we want to watch Kespa players.
Tournament was amazing, loved every second of it (even the 10year olds trying to ddos)
The only ones who are bitching over the $1800 are 14 year olds with no clue how life works. Great job Destiny! You will for sure get a donation from me for The Destiny Two!
I don't have a problem with how the money was distributed.
There was a set amount of expenditure that was all played really promptly ( a rarity in esports ) and then Destiny took a perfectly reasonable amount of money for himself.
With regards to the Kespa thing, I think the Kepsa contact's email was perfectly reasonable. Kespa is the biggest brand in SC2 right now and they want to be careful with how that brand is perceived. It sucks for the players that they couldn't get a bit of extra prize money but if somehow the Kespa brand had been negatively effected by this tournament ( a posssible risk) then it would have effected the Kespa players in the long run.
This is pretty great! I couldn't tune in to the finals, but it felt like you put a lot of professional work into this tournament. I'll try to donate money if I can, but that might prove difficult.
Saying "Destiny did only 6 days of work..." is like saying "Innovation only did 6 days of work..." Neither of them did. Innovation has been spending years of his life training to be a competitor. Destiny has been spending years of his life turning his name into a brand that at least 10,000 people (probably a lot more since they hit 22k on his stream alone) said, "Lets watch Destiny cast a tournament!"
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here.
Destiny, the one thing I didn't like about your website hosting twitch is that it cannot access VODS very easily. Every time I missed a Destiny I stream, I had to go to twitch.com, type destiny, choose Steven Bonnell to access the VODS.
The VOD strip at the bottom is hard to manipulate, such as scroll to older videos. Would you please fix this?
Of course, I am talking about the instance where the VOD has not been uploaded to youtube yet but still remain on the twitch server.
I think you did a great job, getting this together was no easy feat and overall the tournament feels like it went pretty well and we've all seen how they sometimes do not. I totally understand why it is that you feel reluctant to reach out to Kespa again as I would similarly feel slighted in such a situation. I wasn't in the BW scene back in the day so I was not witness to their prior intransigence, but from what I heard, this is not unsurprising of them to do. Ultimately, the question to ask yourself is who it is you are doing this tournament for and that means players and fans. This will mean having to go through Kespa again. I hope that we can see some additional professional co-casting in the future to further spice up the stream.
I really didn't expect this out of Destiny 1, thanks for all your work.
Great job on the competition Destiny Would love to see another competition from you.
Now about the KeSPA issue, if it makes you feel better even WEC (which would look like a much larger competition) got rejected by KeSPA too. Maybe they were overly cautious, but then after your immense success on the first one they wouldn't mind sending players over for the second round. Also, Chudd also asked "what would KeSPA's benefit be for sending players?" I think you can achieve this by having Korean streams, similar to what Totalbiscuit did with his Shoutcraft. If you have some great (and popular) KeSPA players playing in the competition, I think it would be possible to reach out to the Korean audience.
Lastly, about crowdfunding. I honestly feel that it would be better to have a larger scale competition with larger prize pool, even if that means finding sponsors and running ads. I think its worth the trade off, and larger prize pool would attract more players. With your success on your first competition it should be much easier to find sponsors. But this is my opinion, some people might want to keep it as a crowdfunding competition.
As someone who has never been a fan of Destiny I was very please with this tournament. The games were pretty good, casting was fun and watching him try to trouble shoot was entertaining in itself.
I'm very impressed with the transparency and look forward to the next tourney.
On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote: Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here.
Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer.
Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
What? He did far more than 6 days of work for this event and oh by the way, he has to eat and provide for his own family as well.
Successful business enterprises do not run to break even. They run to generate a profit. If he breaks even or loses money, we don't get another tournament.
Great event all around.
Money is always subjective. I'd abstract it to 2000 for two weeks of work so almost 50000 per year. On average that's a fortune where I live but considering where he lives and the frequency of the event it's probably just ok.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Other people had their fees fixed and laid out in advance. On one hand pocketing the sponsorship money is a motivation for you to get more sponsors, on the other hand the publicity of the event and the event in general should in part pay for the next one. People would be ok if you included your fee in the original funding plan.
As far as next time I’d add a couple of perks that include your personal subscription as a percentage. You could offer people who want to donate some value and derive your pay from the percentage (or risk it and pay yourself a fixed amount similarly to the casters). As far as sponsors go I see no reason why not just include a sponsor perk tiers. You get to set it high enough to make it exclusive, limit the number to prevent any stream clutter and it would take the load off of the people who donate smaller amounts. The overflow money can go towards emergencies like TB’s and Naruto’s work and to the next tournament.
Minigun wasn’t a very good choice as a caster, other than that casters were great and the tournament was fun. In the group stage have 6 games played and only then look at the scores, no need to speculate beforehand.
Be very careful about expanding your goals. A $10.000 indiegogo sounds doomed to fail. I am afraid that you benefited from a surge of affection, and hoping for twice that is a bit of a stretch
On August 12 2014 00:55 Cinek357 wrote:We had Korean vs foreigner final. Some quite unknown players had a chance to show a good play too. It was perfect.
I don't know if I'm alone here, but I found the finals to be the weakest part of the tournament. Foreigner vs Korean in a bo9 wasn't pretty.
Regarding Kespa, you are most likely not the first person to try and teach them a lesson. I think they have proven pretty consistantly that they are learnresistent. I do not think it is your job to martyr yourself, let Blizzard fight that fight and I wont think any less of you for not trying what is not in your scope of power. The Best for Kespa players, viewers and yourself is to just stay polite, keep smiling and hope they someday allow their kids to come to the cool kid's Birthday.
I do think that if you want to foster good relationships with KeSPA, posting their personal e-mail to you on a public forum, even if you refrain from cursing them out about it, isn't a very smart thing to do. If I were a KeSPA representative I'd think twice of negotiating entries for players into a tournament where the organizer may randomly decide to publicize the entire conversation to The Internet.
It was a great tournament man, well produced and hosted! Reading your write up was really interesting and though this time round I was just 1 of the 99% who watched and didn't help with the fund raiser, next time I'm gonna help you out. Clearly you deserve it and I selfishly want to see another well organised tourney
I think you should sleep on the KeSPA thing, at the end of the day if they would like to participate in the next tournament it's the players (and us viewers) who benefit the most, not the nonsensical and blatantly frustrating KeSPA policy.
Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
Also on the subject of Destiny's pay - Anyone that says he doesn't deserve 1800 dollars is a full on IDIOT. I would estimate ( MAJOR lowball) this took probably more than 100 hours of work (or 12.5x 8 hour work days) to organize and run based on the information presented, which when averaged out is $18 an hour, less than many ENTRY LEVEL jobs pay in this country. Destiny has put in countless hours for years now for the scene and this is a paltry amount to make for such a tremendous amount of work. Anyone that doesn't believe that this amount of time is required to run an event like this obviously has no experience in business or any sort of concept of time-efficiency.
All in all I really enjoyed this event, props to Destiny for making it his own style and all the work put in. Please consider what I said about Kespa and bring us another great tournament soon!
Otherwise fantastic tournament, albeit slightly ruined by some asshole who managed to join so many of your games and the lag issues which TB helped out with.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
On August 12 2014 01:47 JaKaTaK wrote: I absolutely love the amount of transparency and communication going on here. Thank you so much for doing what you do
100% agreed. I'm amazed how professional you're doing this - good job! 2014 Destiny definitively the best. Also agree that taking $1800 for organizing this is more than legitimate. You've gotta pay the bills in the end, and this must have been a shitload of work. Especially given how much work you put into making it so transparency. Good job, I really enjoyed it!
(except those Jew-jokes with incontrol, but that's just a German's extra sensitivity on the issue I guess)
Hey destiny loved your tournament, and as you said, "the transparency". Here are my thoughts. Having sponsors is not needed. Too much work is involved with that and trying to cater to them and promising things that are not 100% certain can always be risky. Yes, use your own chat, it is your tournament; unless you have some kind of deal with twitch. Most foreigners want other foreigners to win so not having KeSPa is a benefit in my opinion. I think making this tournament fully interactive would really make it develop into something more. For example, having shout-out boxes for twitter and by posting messages that the highest contributors posted as well.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
I didn't back it (except by watching) and I probably won't back another one. The reason being that there is usually a lot of high level content available for free to watch if I want to. However, I hope that by showing such a success it will be possible for you to acquire more funds from sponsors/ad revenue for additional tournaments. This because my opinion is that NA SC2 would benefit a lot from this type of tournament that focuses on the bare minimum (players & casters) without super expensive irl venues. This is in a way quite similar to Dragon invitationals which is just him at home & players.
Also I am super impressed by the transparency which is unique and really refreshing compared to the usual withholding money scandals or simply not giving out any financial details except prize winnings.
By the way, I don't really know about taxation rules in USA but if it were in Sweden those 1800$ would probably become more like 900$ if he would want to turn it into taxed salary for himself.
I suppose the situation with KeSPA is just that shitty side of business. Overlooking the higherup's BS so the tournament can get more notoriety and grow, with the chance for some exciting matches. I like the idea of chat being held mainly at your website too, there's less of a chance for trolls (although some will still be around) to hinder the chat and fans might actually have a better chance at discussions.
KeSPA is a piece of shit, but their players don't deserve to be punished for their administration's evil policies. At least contact some of the western-friendly players, like Solar or Stork. Also DRG and MKP.
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Curtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event. .
I think you were being incredibly naive to think that you could get KeSPA on board for your first event, with no proven track record, particularly on the weekend of the Proleague finals. KeSPA is a massive and powerful organisation which looks out for its players. You gotta prove yourself first before you can work with them. Do you really think TotalBiscuit would have been able to get players for SHOUTcraft Invitation #5 if it weren't for his experience and proven ability to successfully organise and cast online tournaments and the SHOUTcraft Clan Wars?
To be honest, Destiny. I think you nailed Destiny I. I think you did a fantastic job and I really enjoyed the tournament and the format. I also think you responded well to the stress of the situation brought by that asswipe posing as casters. So going forward I think you have proven yourself to some extent. Maybe not enough to fully convince KeSPA yet but who knows?
KeSPA's original reaction doesn't surprise me at all and I sincerely hope that your pride doesn't get in the way of you building positive and constructive links with KeSPA. I think if you continue what your doing then you could get KeSPA on board and that will only benefit your tournament, your brand and the community. Players like Zest, Flash, Maru, soO and Soulkey would do fucking amazingly for your tournament. Imagine if it was the Destiny II or Destiny III that we got to finally see Flash vs Jaedong for the first time in fucking ages? The hype would be through the roof.
Please Destiny, build bridges with KeSPA because I think it will be the benefit of all parties if you managed to get them on side.
Just to let you know that although I usually participate in crowdfunding projects, I didn't partake in the crowdfunding for Destiny I because I was uncertain how it was to pan out. I will certainly be contributing to Destiny II however.
I agree with everything minus the statement that Kespa looks out for it's players. Judging by their actions I would say it's more accurate that Kespa looks out for the best interest of kespa ... not it's players.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
Also on the subject of Destiny's pay - Anyone that says he doesn't deserve 1800 dollars is a full on IDIOT. I would estimate ( MAJOR lowball) this took probably more than 100 hours of work (or 12.5x 8 hour work days) to organize and run based on the information presented, which when averaged out is $18 an hour, less than many ENTRY LEVEL jobs pay in this country. Destiny has put in countless hours for years now for the scene and this is a paltry amount to make for such a tremendous amount of work. Anyone that doesn't believe that this amount of time is required to run an event like this obviously has no experience in business or any sort of concept of time-efficiency.
All in all I really enjoyed this event, props to Destiny for making it his own style and all the work put in. Please consider what I said about Kespa and bring us another great tournament soon!
i disagree.
To much in life is justified with 'its business' in a modern social funded situation being a cunt should earn you all the respect it deserves. This entire enterprise was done without a 'whats in it for me attitude' and good for that.
I think groups like kespa deservedly should get a big 'fuck off we actually dont *need* you - if you do decide you want to participate then what is in it for us?'.
i agree 1.8k is not at all unreasonable. Its his job ffs, by the time he gets taxed he wont see half of that.
I like your Quality Assurence/Post Mortem. No i think it is AWESOME. Gives lots of insight.
I liked the lineup of the tournament very much, so I watched it. Was a bit disappointed by some things happened during casting but well it's just a one man's opinion so I won't lay that out.
Will be there as a viewer next time, propably also throw in about 10 bucks, they don't hurt me
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
I think your perfectly right! KeSPA had literally no risk and refused to help even a little. The Proleague Season is over, many KeSPA-Players should be fine with their scedule and still compete in your tournament. Wich was awesome!! I´m fine with you earning money with it, thats how it should be.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
I agree, and voted no in the poll. There's plenty of good games to be had without Kespa. If Destiny IV or something becomes really large you should re-evaluate because having the best players makes for better overall skill level in the games, but for a 'simple' online tournament this is no way a requirement as the viewer level showed. Your time is better spent on perfecting production and casting etc than worrying about all the Kespa rules and nitpicks.
On August 12 2014 01:42 Yakikorosu wrote: I do think that if you want to foster good relationships with KeSPA, posting their personal e-mail to you on a public forum, even if you refrain from cursing them out about it, isn't a very smart thing to do. If I were a KeSPA representative I'd think twice of negotiating entries for players into a tournament where the organizer may randomly decide to publicize the entire conversation to The Internet.
On the other hand maybe it will stop parties (not just Kespa) from acting like dicks behind closed doors
It has been an entertaining tournament, interesting read before and after the tournament. I think for the next run (along with crowdfunding and sponsor deals) that it would be reasonable to run an ad before as well as after the 5 minute breaks without ruining the viewer experience.
I also think that the $1 800 "profit" is not much money considering all the work he put into this and the fact that this is a limited event that could probably only happen a few times / year. If anyone would consider doing this on a regular base (like every month) the profit would have to be bigger for sure.
If anything, $1800 seems low for organizing and running a 6-day event. Between the pre-planning, the 12 hour days during the tournament, and the opportunity cost (can't take on other projects during that time), $3-4k seems more reasonable.
Not anyone can put together a tournament like this. It takes organization, marketing, and crisis management skills in addition to the charisma required to draw in viewers. Instead of complaining that someone else is making money to provide you with free content, maybe try putting on your own tournament and see how it goes mmkay?
In my opinion, Kespa is acting like the players are some kind of artists like actors or idols, not like pro-gamers. People don't pay them to show up for parties and events, it is a tournament and the players probably want to play and have more chances to win prize money, it is not usual for the kespa players to compete in tournaments with good prize money outside GSL. And in this case, they could even do it in the comfort of their teamhouses!
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
You obviously have a great understanding of the business aspect, and perhaps I was quick to judge the reasoning as feelings. I have often been very impressed by how knowledgable you are on Unfiltered and well-educated on matters at home and abroad. However I still think that at the end of the day Kespa is the biggest company in the business and while from your point of view they had no risk in being involved, they may feel differently. It sets precedents they might not be comfortable with, maybe the time investment for your tournament alone would not be much, but when they are expected to send players to every new online tournament that pops up, that can add up to quite a lot of time for even their B-team that they may want to push hard to get up to the big leagues soon. I am not sure what the business ethics are like in Korea but I would imagine that they are very different from here. Being ultra-conservative with initial investments can be considered good business practice by some. I mean, you don't see Verizon or Motorolla buying advertising space on a AAA baseball team's back fence, do you? But they dish out millions for their name to be put on the headsets worn by coaches on national TV. Those coaches and players didn't receive any initial investment from them, but that's the perk of being the biggest in the business, you get to pick and choose.
Ultimately it's just how I would approach it. I very much appreciate your intelligent reply and respect your point of view, regardless of how mine differs. Keep up the good work.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
easy money, maybe they dont see it as enough of a prize to send players to?
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
i still dont see why they would want to "help" you. your whole idea that kespa gains some benefit is 1) the player could make some money by stay up all night (maybe not all night but a decent amount of it) for 3 days and 2) by reading the kespa's team name every so often, they'll provide positive exposure to the team.
you might think oh ya what a return on investment why kespa so dumb and not help guys? but maybe that isnt enough.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
because it might give you even MORE viewership? and more return on your time invested? and maybe viewers dont want to see the same 8 players every tournament?
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
scared? more like they dont see enough reasons why they would want to invest. you prefaced this whole argument about 100% business, yet maybe 50% of it was. the other 50% is like oh you didnt jump on the bandwagon at the beginning so fuck you lol. guess what happens in REAL business? if they want to jump in later, they'll have to do so on a premium. that's how shit works.
if you could give us some general idea of how you pitched this to kespa, please do. if 1)easy money and 2)minimal exposure was it.
For everyone whining about the $1,800. That's $300 a day before taxes. It's certainly more than minimum wage but let's be real here, it's not that much. Kind of leads me to believe the people at odds here are very young. Additionally you'd have to factor in the time/resources spent planning the event which I would assume amounts to way more than 6 days of work.
I liked this tournament even though I don't follow Starcraft anymore or really even care about it. Tuned in just because I knew the casting was going to be entertaining, and that it was.
But for the love of god, get a lockdown on that troll sneaking into the games. Should have done something about it after the first day.
Destiny is nothing compared to what KeSPA is so he should stop acting like he's an equal to them. him/his tournament's value is nowhere close to KeSPA's value so locking them out of his next tournament is pretty dumb.
On August 12 2014 01:01 plgElwood wrote: I Think Destiny and all the casters (Naruto@ take.tv )did great. The tournament was indeed fun to watch. I don't know how the money could be distributed to Destiny and his Co- Casters. Casters from other (language) Streams should not get paid, unless they promote a sponsor for the event. Destiny "earning" about 2000$ Directly + Add Revenue or additional subs + Twitch should be fine. Maybe do two Tipjars? 1. Destiny | 2. Prizepool ?
I am not decided on the KeSpA Thing. Everytime they should interact with another Organization they act arrogant. The Proleague format is plain boring and only picks up excitement during the Play Offs and Finals, at least for me. There are some Koreans opening to the foreign community, and the elitist KeSpA. And somehow they show yet another level of starcraft, if it is pure skill or just the fact that KeSpa is a rather tiny pool of players competing against one another over and over.
Destiny did not run ads, because of the crowdfunding .
No ads was silly, what's wrong with 1 minute of commercials in between every series to help fund the tournament? If it adds another few hundred dollars to the funding then it puts less strain on the community.
I like 2014 Destiny much more than 2011 Destiny. Great work, sorry for disrepecting that in the LR in a passive aggressive way. Do another one, I'll join in on the funding.
About the KeSPA "problem", i think it's easily understandable : they dont found any interest so they dont sent any player. It's sad of course, but you shouldnt take it personnaly. It's just "ego stuffs", so i think you should chuck away those thought.
They dont wanna come? no problem, dont come, i'm gonna have fun with or without you. They wanna enter the party? ok no problem, come and add your appreciation to the tournement.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
If it's 100% business related for you, what do you gain by banning kespa from your next tournament? They didn't feel like it was worth the time this time, that's fine, you can't force people to enter a tournament. If they want to join the next one, that's still great for you since it would boost the viewership, but you have nothing to gain from not letting them in on the next one just because they didn't play in the first one.
On August 12 2014 00:30 Musicus wrote: One more thing I'd like to mention is the prize money for Destiny II. Don't aim too high! People saw you were going to do a tournament for the first time and chipped in, but people don't like to do that too often . Some that didn't donate this time will next time, some that did will not. I am sure you can go for 5k or 6k, but don't go to 10k, especially without sponsors imo. Then you would need at least 12k to pay the casters, staff and get some money yourself. We don't need that much money for an online competition, especially if you want to have several per year.
I was thinking about this aswell, I don't think it necessarily follows with crowdfunding that because you delivered a good product on your first tournament it incentivises people to contribute more to the next one.
People who are contributing to a crowdfunded project want entertainment and quality from that investment.
Is a 10k tournament twice as exciting as a 5k tournament ? No I wouldn't say so, despite a bigger prize pool and better production it's going to be what, probably about 30% better ? (I just pulled that number out my ass.) My point is there's obviously diminishing returns on each extra dollar that gets added.
Are people prepared to invest 100% more for an increase of 30% production value ? Honnestly I have no idea, it could be the worth the leap from 5k to 10k but not from 10k to 20k say, where do you draw the line ...
I actually think Destiny could get the 10k for Destiny-II but then what happens down the line as this becomes a regular tournament ... I'm not sure you'd keep getting 10k from the community, it's a lot of money (could be completely wrong though). Ugh then you have to consider what happens if you'd have to revert back to a small prize pool & production further down the line because it was unsustainable (e.g I - 5k, II - 10k, III - 10k, IV - 7k), i.e do you lose a dissproportionate amount of interest/viewers (talking proportional to the 3K drop) in IV because it's less. I'm sure some pyschologist could explain better but I'm pretty sure there's something in the human mind that when you have to downscale it makes you feel ... deflated (so you could get worse viewership for a 7k fourth tourny than for your 5k Destiny I), you can always go up but going down is damn risky ...
Of course that shits ways in the future but you gotta consider these things right.
Man, I'd play it a bit more conservative like Muscius says for Destiny II, 5k/6k ish, perhaps 7?, and see what happens. Yeah actually up the funding a *small* bit and see if you notice what returns you are getting on that before radically increasing it.
Also stick with the sponsors ! I don't see why you'd want to get rid of them.
Disclaimer, could all be shit advice though
On August 12 2014 00:26 LeviathanDK wrote: get some casters, the final day with Minigun made me skip out on every single game as I simply need a caster "ToD would be fine"
It was a shame that your tournament didn't feel as a proper tournament due to casters and imo the language during the casting was too laidback and some of the language was in my mind too rude towards some players, or they were being made fun of due to their skills or choices. I hope this will change for a future Destiny II tournament, because I like that there are more tournaments like this out there.
Tournament organization always has to be professional, casting though .... just has to be entertaining. Whether it was entertaining or not is a different question.
I think it is still in your best interest to pursue these players from a 100% business standpoint, as you say. Yes, you took on all the risk; now that you know where viewership is imagine what viewership would be if you managed to bring on Kespa. I would not be upset as a businessperson (i.e Destiny) if a party (i.e. Kespa) did not jump on board the first go at a business venture.
The risk is in the rear view mirror and bringing on Kespa for the second tournament will do you more good than excluding them.
In my opinion business is business and you have a gain from having Kespa players in your tournament, so don't take it personally. I really enjoyed the tournament as there was a lot of hype and excitement throughout, something that we're lacking lately.
Crazy how close that KeSPA poll is. Personally I went for no because its a super cheap move from them. But on the other hand you are hardly going to bring down the evil KeSPA empire by yourself, sometimes you just have to let the powers that be get away with this stuff.
On August 12 2014 02:19 woopr wrote: Destiny is nothing compared to what KeSPA is so he should stop acting like he's an equal to them. him/his tournament's value is nowhere close to KeSPA's value so locking them out of his next tournament is pretty dumb.
What the .... I mean .... I can't ... Did you read ANYTHING he wrote? Liek ... anything?
Out of curiosity, was there any further correspondence between you and Kespa after the letter you wrote? I don't read the letter as foreclosing Kespa's participation -- it seems like Chuddinator was asking you to elaborate on the case for why their participation would be beneficial to them. If the conversation stopped there just because the letter comes off as presumptuous I think you might have lost an opportunity. If there was further dialogue it would be interesting to hear how it went.
Also, did you have a prior relationship with any of these Kespa folks? If they didn't have any idea who you were a skeptical reply wouldn't be that unusual.
Great tournament! Don´t let your pride ruin your chance of getting Kespa players though, we all know Kespa is a bunch of arrogant pricks, but having their players for such a laidback and "personal" tournament would be cool.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
It's all about us - the viewers, what we want is what will get you money, especially since you want 100% crowdfunding. It's like saying that those who didn't back a kickstarter can't buy the product after it goes into production if it's a success.
On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote: Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them. Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole.
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
While certainly the caliber of players participating could of increased as a result of select few kespa players, I highly doubt the tournament overall would of been that much better off. At 20k viewers on average per day, you're already beating views on the redbull lan, and halfway from overcoming the views on HSC. Plus, I do feel there is something to be said about the "foreign magic" that is rarely played up on instead of "random korean vs other korean".
However, I think its nieve to believe that any major organizer would be gun-ho on any project like yours when you first present it to them. Of course, you could just bypass kespa entirely and go straight to the teams themselves as been done previously with other organizers, which if you *really* want koreans in, that would probably be the best way about doing it.
Of course, there is always the business approach. If kespa now likes the idea of letting their players play, you can always demand a "donation" to be made for their willingness to assist in growing the tournament. If they refuse, then so what? You just add in more foreigners and get more viewers. If they accept, then you can consider the donation as part of their risk premium.
Nice tournament. Definitely looking forward to "Destiny II". Would love to see the a bigger prize pool though. Some of the (Korean) players I felt did not try their best.
On August 12 2014 02:37 DeadByDawn wrote: Only 1% of the viewers contributed - shame. I contributed $20 but I was not able to spare the time to watch! Glad to hear it was a success.
Not everyone has the financial means to contribute, even when someone wants to do so, e. g. students. I would be perfectly comfortable with running ads in the breaks, as I could contribute in that way.
For those suggesting he give some of the overflow money to people like me, no. That's silly. He offered me what he offered me and I had the choice to accept it or not. I don't deserve anymore than what I agreed to in the first place. Him making a profit from this was one of his goals and a reason to do it again, so kudos to him. I have also made a profit from some of my tournaments thanks to the remonetization of my VoDs on Youtube. Sandisk was maybe the first event where I actually made enough money to justify the time investment. It's important that happens more often to make sure tournament organisers can continue to work sustainably.
Loved the tournament and I hope you'll organize another. You talked about Perks. He're some Perks you might consider. (I've also added what I would pay).
Amount - Perk $5 - Wallpaper with the tournament logo. $10 - Replay-pack with all the tournament games. $20 - Original Tournament Soundtrack. $30 - Replay-pack & Original Tournament Soundtrack.
Why not sell your tournament assets as Perks and distribute them after the tournament? I'm guessing you'll be wanting "fresh" assets for Destiny II, anyway.
Also, F.Y.I, I've backed a few projects on Kickstarter and Indiegogo and several of them used backerkit.com to assist in distributing.
PS, I was one of the backers of this tournament and I'm a satisfied customer. :D
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, it was clearly a poor business decision on the part of KeSPA to have not contributed towards Destiny I, but it seems to me that it would now make perfect sense for them to want to get on board. Obviously this is a bit of a scumbag move, but the logical decision nevertheless.
On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
If you feel that KeSPA's original aversion towards Destiny I reflected poorly on the organization's management as a whole, I'd certainly not fault you for that. It demonstrates an almost inexcusable lack of awareness on their part. However, going forward, I believe that you should not view any future involvement as "rewarding" KeSPA, but rather as growth for your own brand. You might want to consider more carefully the potential benefits of associating yourself with such an organization and having more top-tier Koreans available to you. If you have already done so and are satisfied with your current resources, then of course the correct choice might be to cut ties. Just be aware of what you are locking yourself out of.
At the end of the day, I personally believe that Destiny I was a fantastic tournament with great player talent, even without KeSPA, and that their involvement is not necessary at this point in time. However, I also fail to see any tangible risks that you would take on by associating yourself with them; it seems as if cooperation would be a win-win for both parties.
Thanks again for putting on such a great show, and good luck going forward!
If you want say Manchester United to play for you, you won't succeed. Kespa is the esport counterpart and seem to be very protective of their players nowadays, probably after a recent burn where prize money wasn't payed out or something along those lines (also see that Hong Kong tournament I think it was). That's why they are very careful only to deal with organisations they know are trustworthy and has a good reputation. They worked with TB because of his reputation (or this "burn" happened after his event).
Anyway, I can totally understand why they didn't let players play this time.
Thanks for doing this man! I'm a fan of yours and I watched most of the days. Definitely will tune up next time!!~
Love the transparency. It makes me feel genuinely interested in how the tournament turns out as a whole, not just what the final bracket results are. Thanks!
1. I was expecting to see "financials" thru proper reports i.e., income statements, balance sheets, cash flow. My guess is that your $1,800 just broke you even if you factor in your working capital, utilities, equipment, cost of living, etc. What about a provision for taxes if you decide to go big and official on this?
2. IMO, Kespa is just making sound business decision here, no need to hate on them. But now that proleague is over, their demand will dip slightly, so you may have more leverage during this lull, until the KeSPA cup, that is.
3. What about ad revenues from the actual Twitch stream, any report on that?
i'd rather destiny take the dreamhack approach. mostly foreigners with a sprinkle of korean. less invites, more qualifiers. inno disrespecting the tourny, was BS, and he still won.
and i don't mind destiny made $1800. back in the days casters were making 5 figures, doing jack all. (and now they're playing hearthstones) destiny organized the whole thing, and still supporting SC2.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, it was clearly a poor business decision on the part of KeSPA to have not contributed towards Destiny I, but it seems to me that it would now make perfect sense for them to want to get on board. Obviously this is a bit of a scumbag move, but the logical decision nevertheless.
I wonder why it was poor business decision on their side. You will not get Real Madrid to play against your regional team also...
From a business standpoint you should try your luck with kespa again, you can always say gtfo to them if they want more than sending players. Having players like flash and zest in there could increase the viewership like 10k+ You had good production and casters except the few little issues you mentioned. Having popular koreans(not necessarily better ones) along with some foreigners is the best way to go imo
I would ask Kespa again, but only if there are some spots left over. Aside from that the tournament worked great, don't see a reason to change to much.
I'm not against KESPA in the next tournament because of their response to this one, but simply because I'd be more likely to watch if the players were foreigners.
Going to write my comments on here since anonymous redditors always seem to have a quick trigger finger for the downvote arrow even when you know it doesn't deserve it. I don't expect a response but if you read this then that's good enough for me
I didn't think I would watch much of it, but given how things went progressively well (minus the stuff outside your control) from Day 1, I'm glad I tuned in for most of it (while simultaneously watching DOTA 2 streamers too). I'm glad it was a success overall from a viewer standpoint, and I will gladly tune in to your next one when the time comes.
That said, people have already commented on your lack of knowledge in certain matchups when you casted, which is definitely something you should work on . But the bigger issue I had, and I'm surprised most people don't say this much is... profanity. Maybe you feel comfortable using it during this tournament (or MLG a few months ago for that matter) to help you get into the flow, but if you say you're trying to keep things professional, how about cutting it? It doesn't entirely offend me, but I mean it's just awkward and somewhat cringeworthy to hear it when I read you're trying to make your event look professional.
On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, it was clearly a poor business decision on the part of KeSPA to have not contributed towards Destiny I, but it seems to me that it would now make perfect sense for them to want to get on board. Obviously this is a bit of a scumbag move, but the logical decision nevertheless.
Destiny nearly had a nervous breakdown and suspended the tournament. I don't it's obvious in retrospect that KeSPA was in the wrong here. They were hesitant to endorse a tournament organized by someone inexperienced, the actual event illustrated some of the concerns, and in the future they can reevaluate their decision based on Destiny's new-found experience and proven track record of being able to organize.
I just don't understand the logic of wanting to punish KeSPA for their decision of not believing in Destiny initially. That's an extreme attitude, imo, business typically doesn't work like this and it's the kind of attitude that will not serve you well long-term. Businesses like KeSPA are somewhat abstract entities that operate according to rationalist-based principles and you have to treat them that way. They're not your best friend that scorned you when you invited him to a party.
On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, it was clearly a poor business decision on the part of KeSPA to have not contributed towards Destiny I, but it seems to me that it would now make perfect sense for them to want to get on board. Obviously this is a bit of a scumbag move, but the logical decision nevertheless.
Destiny nearly had a nervous breakdown and suspended the tournament. I don't it's obvious in retrospect that KeSPA was in the wrong here. They were hesitant to endorse a tournament organized by someone inexperienced, the actual event illustrated some of the concerns, and in the future they can reevaluate their decision based on Destiny's new-found experience and proven track record of being able to organize.
I just don't understand the logic of wanting to punish KeSPA for their decision of not believing in Destiny initially. That's an extreme attitude, imo, business typically doesn't work like this and it's the kind of attitude that will not serve you well long-term. Businesses like KeSPA are somewhat abstract entities that operate according to rationalist-based principles and you have to treat them that way. They're not your best friend that scorned you when you invited him to a party.
This. Sometimes you have to do business with people you don't like.
Why should Destiny want to include Kespa to reap the rewards? It's like having an initial investor. Why wouldn't he want to bring back the people/teams or those like them who gave the time and effort to make this the initial success? This can also give others the opportunity to shine as opposed to just Kespa players. Additionally, the viewer spike from Kespa players isn't going to be as substantial as people believe. What causes the biggest increase in viewership is the closeness of the games aka clutch plays, the quality of the tournament itself from production and casters, and the reputation from previous success. There are plenty enough popular players not from Korea that can draw in viewers if that is the main concern.
it was an amazing tournament, the days where ToD, Incontrol and QXC were casting were my absolutely favorites. ToD is very knowledgeable but also very funny, Incontrol is straight up hilarious and when he laughs its impossible not to, and QXC has very technical analysis of the game (and always spot on) which I truly appreciate. In combo with Destiny which was also pretty hilarious throughout the tournament it made it for a very fun and pleasing spectating experience. It was very refreshing compared to the "regular casting" because it was a bit more informal, but not so much like HSC where sometimes it drifts off topic for huge amount of times. I watched all days and I did not donate, but I will for the next round.
P.S. funniest moment for me is when Destiny makes his redneck voice pretending the other player is still in the game even tho he's clearly dead ahaha always makes my day.
Thanks Destiny and all the other casters ! p.p.s I wish you chose someone else for final other than Minigun. He seems a nice guy but he lacked the charisma of basically every single caster before him and being the finals the most important match I'd save an Incontrol or a Tod for the semis + Finals, just my two cents
Regarding the Kespa question I would personally be more interested in the tournament with some top tier Kespa pros. Love or hate the organisation but they do have the most exciting players. (I only watched 1 day of Destiny 1 this time).
I don't think there is any rational reason for not inviting the Kespa players.
I think Kespa were totally within their rights to not participate in a first time tournament with no recognizable/experienced organisation behind it. Of course the Destiny brand is strong but I can understand potential misgivings that Kespa may have had.
Now you can go to Kespa with great tournament feedback and strong viewer numbers and invite them again. They will help boost viewer numbers and raise the tournament up to a new level.
Putting aside personal feelings I can't see any gain from not inviting them
Really respect your transparency Destiny. I watched a fair portion of the tournament, and the finals as well, which were a little disappointing in terms of the games, but not a surprise. I didn't contribute to the tournament, but will definitely do so for the next one. In that respect, I guess Kespa can claim they were coming from the same angle
The Destiny paycheck of 1800$ seems fine to me for all the work leading up to it and many sleep deprived times during the event
Yay for transparency too, If Destiny starts overcharging "us" someone else can step up and try make a better tournament for cheaper or we can just be minus an event.
As for KESPA, I too would think they could at least let a few B-teamers participate without any negative effects, so they must mostly be concerned/paranoid about helping someone else grow a brand they have no investment in or influence over?
I wish they could add up that
1) The big majority of the moneys goes to the players 2) This sort of thing should in general be good for the scene 3) If KESPA B-teamers add a lot of value to Destiny II tournament and makes it an even bigger success, KESPA will have SOME influence over Destiny III etc.
But maybe I am missing 4) 5) and 6) that somehow subtracts a lot.
Also, $1,800 for what was essentially more than 6 days' worth of work (I'm assuming these were not even regular working hours, that are non-repeating) is next to nothing, at least from an American perspective.
Have some unrelated (to finances) feedback: the ladder qualifier occurred too early in the season to be an ideal ladder qualifier. I think we have a good ladder system but it doesn't really start giving accurate rankings until later in the season. At the start of a season, players have high MMR carried over from the previous season (or they quickly achieve high MMR from a fresh account because fresh accounts are more volatile) and so every game they play against similar (high MMR) opponents results in risk-free points. Players lose only a few points for a loss and gain around 20 points for a win. This situation gradually disappears as MMR and actual points converge. But I think that didn't fully happen for the qualifier. Competitors who played at a time of day when finding high MMR opponents is common could win 50% of their games against a top 25 player and get "free" points, putting themselves in a better position to go for top 8 without really proving themselves as worthy of a top 8 position.
I was sort of on-and-off taking the ladder seriously while the qualifier was going on and noticed that I was playing at a really terrible time for being competitive on the ladder. For several games in a row I'd play against players giving me 2-4 points for a win, which would mean winning ~30 games straight just to go up 100 points when I was several hundred points back from the top of the ladder. And then Huk started playing and I matched against him 5 times and went 2-3 and we both netted points from the exchange. I think he was even still gaining more points than he was losing because his actual points hadn't caught up to my MMR yet. And that was late enough in the season that those were games contributing to him securing top 8.
Even though you vetted match histories to check for win trading, natural win trading still took place. A bunch of high MMR players playing at the same time and only matching against each other all boost each other up, while players who play at a different time of day or don't have high enough MMR yet get left in the dust. Having the qualifier end closer to the end of the ladder season alleviates this issue. I also think that if one of your goals is improving the ladder in general then you accomplish that better by ending your qualifier nearer (or simultaneous) with the end of the Blizzard ladder season.
tbh 1800$ is not even that much, Destiny deserves and should get way more money than only 1800.
and lastly, VERY POOR decision for Kespa to not let their players. Destiny's tournament had WAY more people watching than any day on Proleague (except the final which peaked at 33k or so, a tiny bit more than Destiny's final) so it's actually safe to assume that Destiny + Casters + Players invited fan base is actually already larger than Proleague. Some Proleague days it's as low as 5k, when it's "good" it's barely above 10k. So fuck yeah! Congrats to Destiny for pulling such good numbers and I hope the next one will have even more
It's too bad the casting was on at odd times for me (pacific time zone) and the only time I ever tuned in was when there was no games being played, just a camera of Desinty + guest trying desperately to fill up time with meaningless banter.
On August 12 2014 03:29 Krugessin wrote: The Destiny paycheck of 1800$ seems fine to me for all the work leading up to it and many sleep deprived times during the event
Yay for transparency too, If Destiny starts overcharging "us" someone else can step up and try make a better tournament for cheaper or we can just be minus an event.
As for KESPA, I too would think they could at least let a few B-teamers participate without any negative effects, so they must mostly be concerned/paranoid about helping someone else grow a brand they have no investment in or influence over?
I wish they could add up that
1) The big majority of the moneys goes to the players 2) This sort of thing should in general be good for the scene 3) If KESPA B-teamers add a lot of value to Destiny II tournament and makes it an even bigger success, KESPA will have SOME influence over Destiny III etc.
But maybe I am missing 4) 5) and 6) that somehow subtracts a lot.
I imagine Kespa went through a worst case scenario.
Destiny isn't a major organisation he has never run a tournament before. If this tournament is a joke with bad presentation and organisational mishaps e.g. bad maps, weird game times etc. then it makes the Kespa players look bad and effects the Kespa brand.
Also I don't know how much research they did on Destiny or what they knew about him beforehand but not everything is positive. inflammatory language, sometimes apparently appears unprofessional etc. Perhaps they talked to the wrong people. Maybe they worry about him bad mouthing the players or saying something really inappropiate, do they want the Kespa brand attached to him in that scenario? I don't know what went down but I can imagine this being a real concern
Now as a westerner who watches a lot of destiny and followed the tournament planning progress it was obvious to me that this worst case scenario would not occur and the tournament was a huge success. In hindsight Kespa probably wishes they had sent players but it was an understandable decision not to
The kespa email was kind of condescending, but still shouldn't prevent you from asking them to participate in the future. I see nothing wrong with Kespa wanting to see how your very first tournament would run before agreeing to participate in future tourneys based on the results of the first one. You may not see it as emotion over business, but you most definitely are using emotion over business in this case.
A lot of businesses want to work with established brands first with a proven track record before agreeing to work with them. Just think of it like sponsors. Can joe blow run a tournament and then expect coke/intel or someone big to sponsor their very first tourney? Of course not because joe blow has no past track record to speak of, so coke/intel would be very leery to sponsor it. If joe blow then eventually built up his brand to be respectable and now coke/intel want to sponsor his events, is he going to say, yo dawg you didn't sponsor me my very first tourney where I took 100% of the risk, so I'm not going to let you sponsor me now that I've established my brand. Of course, he could turn down their sponsorship, but then that would be over emotion and not business, just like in your case.
Including kespa -> more good games. Besides, denying them for the next run would be a bit hypocritical, or at least vengeful, which definitely wont help anyone.
The thing with Kespa is that as much as it's a business, it's also something that looks out for its players.
How should I put this. Kespa works as a way to protect its teams and the players on those teams. I read this somewhere else in the thread and I feel it didn't get enough attention. All the big teams in Korea have a main sponsor, e.g. SKT, KT, Jinair, Samsung, etc. The reason Korean e-sports can exist is because those big companies pay money to have their brand associated with these pro-gaming teams. Kespa works as an entity that protects the teams from being associated with bad things, such as match-fixing, betting or something. Kespa is the entity that reassures the big companies that their brand won't be associated to bad things. For this reason, Kespa has its say on where the players and the teams can play.
Now, I'm not saying that Kespa associating itself with Destiny I would have been a bad thing, however from their point of view (Kespa's), there's little reason to associate themselves with a relatively unknown in an online tournament with a small prize-pool. Destiny, unlike TB, is not as well-known and from Kespa's point of view, there's no reason to risk associating their teams with something potentially scandalous. It could be something like having their players lose due to stream cheat, or maybe betting will take place on Destiny I. Most people on TL.net and in the SC community know Destiny and we were all pretty sure that his intentions were sincere (which is the case). Kespa can't be 100% sure of that, so there's little reason to risk it. We did have the "god hates niggers" after all. While most of us scoff at it, since we're Internet warriors, perhaps it wouldn't please Jinair's CEO to tune in to watch Maru play in Destiny I, just to see "god hates niggers" in the chat. A silly example, but you get the idea.
I think that this could be a possible reason that weighed Kespa from not associating itself to Destiny for the production of Destiny I. Obviously, Kespa is reserved about sending out its players. Wasn't there a big LAN recently in which Kespa players did not participate? Korean qualifiers something something.
Now that Kespa can clearly see that Destiny's brand is legit and it's good, Kespa might come back on its decision and participate in Destiny II. I think it would be a mistake not to give another chance to Kespa to participate. Sure, Kespa didn't want to make the very small, almost token, investment in participating in Destiny I. I don't think that that means it shouldn't make Destiny II even better than Destiny I.
I had quite a few laughs with your casting and am looking forward to seeing you cast more. Maybe next time you could also collaborate with Harstem, Ret and others who have dabbled in casting while being pro players so that they can help a lot with analysis just like ToD did to a certain extent, or would have done with Protoss-centric games.
I agree with the rest that KeSPA players should still be given the chance to apply next time. Maybe you should prioritize KeSPA players that don't have as much chances to participate in Proleague or teams that have been knocked out in playoffs in the offchance that you're given the opportunity to do so. Proleague offseason should mean that anyone can sign up though just to be fair.
Oh, and you should definitely play more ads in break periods so that you can earn money while resting your vocal chords and preparing your mind for commentary on games.
Good luck on the next iteration. I'll at least be watching the next tournament too.
Ah yes, it makes sense that KESPA would fear being associated with a fiasco of a tournament where a shady organizer makes off with moneys or just royally f00ks up.
Well let's hope they saw the Destiny I then and liked it, and that Destiny isn't too offended to let them in next time
This was a great recap of a grassroots success story until the entitled part about KeSPA.
The guy's point was valid, if you are trying to sell international exposure to KeSPA players you'd need some reference that it would be worthwhile. It's not a charity and they wouldn't have a reason to send players to your event if their players were be the keystone of your viewership. There are already established and successful venues for people to watch KeSPA players.
Think of it from their perspective. Their organization has longevity, has demonstrated sustainability, and is the face of Korean e-sports. Stuff you had no hand in building. A guy with a promising, even good, but not proven, or regular, or very big, event, comes up to YOU unprompted and asks if you would send any players? And their behavior is selfish? because he said they might be open in the future for a project that you brought to them unsolicited?
Not everybody has to work together, you know. You showed you can have a successful tournament independent of them with players such as you have, it's not necessary to make a big deal out of whether you do business together with KeSPA. You could have just left it at differences of opinion instead of flaming them, which just seems like a setup for you to snub them in the future from an event you never really sold them on to begin with.
On August 12 2014 03:38 meshfusion wrote: tbh 1800$ is not even that much, Destiny deserves and should get way more money than only 1800.
and lastly, VERY POOR decision for Kespa to not let their players. Destiny's tournament had WAY more people watching than any day on Proleague (except the final which peaked at 33k or so, a tiny bit more than Destiny's final) so it's actually safe to assume that Destiny + Casters + Players invited fan base is actually already larger than Proleague. Some Proleague days it's as low as 5k, when it's "good" it's barely above 10k. So fuck yeah! Congrats to Destiny for pulling such good numbers and I hope the next one will have even more
That's international viewers and GOMTV pretty much have the Korean market cornered in that regard.
I think the fans of Destiny and Steven themselves were going to have a tough time convincing KeSPA to send any players, especially considering the finals of Proleague, which is the biggest KR e-sports event of the year.
Nonetheless, I voted against having KeSPA players in Destiny II because the last thing we need is even tougher KR competition clogging up the NA scene.
I'm really impressed by how you've matured into a business man Destiny. I was a pretty big anti-fan of you back in your player days, but this new you is definitely someone I want in the scene. You've done something incredible and deserve praise for it for sure. I'm most impressed by how you've dealt with the set backs with KeSPA, you handled that the exact way you should have. Thank you for the transparency.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
What? Didn't TB cast this?
If TB makes 100 USD on day of casting, he is grossly underpaid. That makes no sense to me.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
What? Didn't TB cast this?
If TB makes 100 USD on day of casting, he is grossly underpaid. That makes no sense to me.
FYI:
On August 12 2014 02:47 TotalBiscuit wrote: For those suggesting he give some of the overflow money to people like me, no. That's silly. He offered me what he offered me and I had the choice to accept it or not. I don't deserve anymore than what I agreed to in the first place. Him making a profit from this was one of his goals and a reason to do it again, so kudos to him. I have also made a profit from some of my tournaments thanks to the remonetization of my VoDs on Youtube. Sandisk was maybe the first event where I actually made enough money to justify the time investment. It's important that happens more often to make sure tournament organisers can continue to work sustainably.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
What? Didn't TB cast this?
If TB makes 100 USD on day of casting, he is grossly underpaid. That makes no sense to me.
TB was paid 100 USD for his day of casting. He was very generous with his time in order to help the SC2 scene improve. He was extra generous by helping destiny stream that day as there were technical difficulties with the stream.
TotalBiscuit is by far one of the best people in the SC2 scene currently and we owe him a lot of thanks. Destiny II will be great and I can't wait for it.
On August 12 2014 00:15 Grettin wrote: Just out of curiosity and i hope you don't mind me asking, but did the co-caster(s) earn something for their work? Sadly, i wasn't able to watch any of the tournament, reading through the post, I assume Incontrol was one of the co-casters atleast?
Regardless, i do like the transparency and want to wish you good luck for the next tournament!
He outlined before the tournament how every cent of the $5000 would be spent. $4000 was prize money, every caster got $100 for a day of casting, he also paid the admin and somebody who made the tournament site and overlay afaik.
What? Didn't TB cast this?
If TB makes 100 USD on day of casting, he is grossly underpaid. That makes no sense to me.
On August 12 2014 02:47 TotalBiscuit wrote: For those suggesting he give some of the overflow money to people like me, no. That's silly. He offered me what he offered me and I had the choice to accept it or not. I don't deserve anymore than what I agreed to in the first place. Him making a profit from this was one of his goals and a reason to do it again, so kudos to him. I have also made a profit from some of my tournaments thanks to the remonetization of my VoDs on Youtube. Sandisk was maybe the first event where I actually made enough money to justify the time investment. It's important that happens more often to make sure tournament organisers can continue to work sustainably.
I wasn't having a go at Destiny for not forwarding part of the money to TB, I just figured someone as prominent and simply good as TB would make a killing casting tournaments. Though I never believed the 10k/weekend Artosis is supposed to make, the amount just seemed so low.
was the best tournie of all the weekend considering what you were up against, the dragon invit, proleague, redbull and some other highly watched streams and weeklys. Was great Destiny, id be more than happy to donate a couple hundred dollars for the next one and i expect absolutely nothing back . .except for the tournie itself and a rotterdam/destiny casting final
TotalBiscuit is by far one of the best people in the SC2 scene currently and we owe him a lot of thanks. Destiny II will be great and I can't wait for it.
Destiny, it won't mean much, but I'm really proud and impressed with your commitment to competitive gaming lately. Really good work on this past tournament and I hope your future endeavors turn out well too.
On August 12 2014 02:19 woopr wrote: Destiny is nothing compared to what KeSPA is so he should stop acting like he's an equal to them. him/his tournament's value is nowhere close to KeSPA's value so locking them out of his next tournament is pretty dumb.
I love everything save the caster pay. I could stand for that to go up quite a bit, 2-300 ish? I wouldn't mind seeing Destiny walk away with more than 1,800, I think 3k would be more fitting for his workload. But then, any higher salaries would require a bigger investment into the community.
I'm really glad that you seem to have got a decent piece ofo the pie from this event, since that will motivate you to organize more. I totally loved your tournament, it was superbly managed.
I was not a fan of yours in the past. It has only been recently that i have had more respect for you. I personally understand what it is to do an event almost entirely on your own. It takes alot of work, planning, budgeting, scheduling etc... I enjoyed the stream. I feel like it will only get better second time around.
As far as KeSPA goes... I would hold off from inviting their players for now. My reason is let yourself get established with this event really well. If you can run this even strong without KeSPA players than you are already ahead of the game. Once you have solid foundation and you want to have KeSPA players play in your event your success will give you more punching power to have your demands met as well.
I thank you for your clarity, and for your commitment to both the community and the preservation of 2014 Destiny. Your style may rub me the wrong way on more than one occasion, but all the same, I wish nothing but success for Destiny II and onward.
On August 12 2014 04:21 Byyk wrote: Destiny, I am impressed. From villain of SC2 scene to the savior. Really nice work. When I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4FTflKqQ58 And now after all that time, like twist... Keep with good work, it is appreciated.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
On August 12 2014 04:09 StatixEx wrote: was the best tournie of all the weekend considering what you were up against, the dragon invit, proleague, redbull and some other highly watched streams and weeklys. Was great Destiny, id be more than happy to donate a couple hundred dollars for the next one and i expect absolutely nothing back . .except for the tournie itself and a rotterdam/destiny casting final
TotalBiscuit is by far one of the best people in the SC2 scene currently and we owe him a lot of thanks. Destiny II will be great and I can't wait for it.
I don't understand people complaining about the 1800$ destiny took home... With all the time he does planning and casting and closing out the tournament I guess he spent roughly 2 weeks on this tournament, and then his left with about the same amount I earn while working at a supermarket for 2 weeks... After all he took a risk and it went extremely well, then 1800$ is not much.
On August 12 2014 04:09 StatixEx wrote: was the best tournie of all the weekend considering what you were up against, the dragon invit, proleague, redbull and some other highly watched streams and weeklys. Was great Destiny, id be more than happy to donate a couple hundred dollars for the next one and i expect absolutely nothing back . .except for the tournie itself and a rotterdam/destiny casting final
TotalBiscuit is by far one of the best people in the SC2 scene currently and we owe him a lot of thanks. Destiny II will be great and I can't wait for it.
i simply dont agree
Just out of curiosity. Why not?
Because people like to bash others to make themselves feel better but don't want to put in the effort to creating somethjng, even if it's as small and simple as constructive criticism.
, I just figured someone as prominent and simply good as TB would make a killing casting tournaments.
I could, but I wanted to help.
As for KeSPAs attitude and indeed the "we are helping you" attitude in general. This is not 2011. I remember having a conversation back then with some players who were at their peak, wanted to charge tournaments appearance fees because of the number of additional viewers they'd bring in through their attendance. At the time that didn't seem too unreasonable, they were stars, they were adding value to the event.
This is 2014. SC2 in Korea is on life-support. Teams have folded left and right. Proleague shows potential but still isn't bringing in anywhere near enough viewers to be sustainable. GOM supposedly has severe financial problems. Korea has the largest talent pool yet the smallest number of events to play in on their home turf. This is NOT the time to be breaking out the "we're helping you" attitude. No, we're all helping each other. Quit the insular nonsense. Not trusting Destiny due to the tournament not being an established brand is entirely reasonable. Pulling the "we're helping you" attitude isn't. At this point we should be all helping each other as much as possible, we cannot afford these politics in our game.
On August 12 2014 03:38 meshfusion wrote: tbh 1800$ is not even that much, Destiny deserves and should get way more money than only 1800.
and lastly, VERY POOR decision for Kespa to not let their players. Destiny's tournament had WAY more people watching than any day on Proleague (except the final which peaked at 33k or so, a tiny bit more than Destiny's final) so it's actually safe to assume that Destiny + Casters + Players invited fan base is actually already larger than Proleague. Some Proleague days it's as low as 5k, when it's "good" it's barely above 10k. So fuck yeah! Congrats to Destiny for pulling such good numbers and I hope the next one will have even more
Are you aware that the majority of Proleague viewership is not from Twitch? The chinese stream pulled 100k during the finals in addition to Korean viewers.
As for Destiny's tournament, I would have definitely loved seeing Kespa players. Lack of good players was the main reason I didn't tune in for most of it. Also the unfortunate roflstomp in the finals, but that was to be expected with the way brackets worked out.
I really enjoyed the tournament (on the days I was able to watch, damn you sleep schedule!) and really enjoyed the casting style and music.
To everyone questioning the $1800, that is serious chump change based on amount of work involved and relative pay in this space. I'm almost disappointed Destiny didn't make more.
Looking forward to the next one Destiny, thanks for all your hard work.
On August 12 2014 04:21 Byyk wrote: Destiny, I am impressed. From villain of SC2 scene to the savior. Really nice work. When I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4FTflKqQ58 And now after all that time, like twist... Keep with good work, it is appreciated.
Wasn't a big fan of you before, maybe because I didn't understand you or maybe you have changed. I viewed your tournament quite a few times, and I have to say you did an amazing job.
I have to say I LOVE your transparency in everything. Kudos in trying to set a standard and I look forward to your next tournament, which I will undoubtedly financially support.
I say, forget KeSPA. I'd like to see you develop the Destiny-tournament brand as a/the go-to tournament for non-KeSPA players. Have it become a great way for foreigners to play on a big online stage and establish themselves against other proven players. How many people knew Adonminus before this tournament? I haven't seen much of Apocalypse, and I think seeing Kane come out on top of his group was a pleasant surprise. We all love the KeSPA Koreans (self included). They guarantee the absolute top-level play. But if they join the tournament, Destiny will become just another stop along the way, like all the other tournaments (and I don't know about you guys, but I've had trouble keeping up with ALL the SC2 events this year, especially in the past few months).
It's very clear that Destiny wants to establish his tournament as a reputable brand within SC2, but also very clear is his intention to grow the competitive SC2 scene as a whole. Having a popular platform from which guys like Adonminus, JonSnow, Apocalypse, etc. can play against some top level pros will be a boon for the foreign community, and SC2 in general. These guys normally only get exposure during challenger and RO32 WCS, and if/when they're eliminated, aren't heard from or seen again until the next season.
Obviously, it's your tournament and a viewer like me has no reputation or financial implications on the line here, nor do I have to worry about viewership numbers (which, as you've stated, would be boosted significantly if KeSPA players were involved). Clearly the decision is up to you.
If anything, I'd like to see you close the tournament to KeSPA players indefinitely, until it gets big enough where KeSPA is asking you to allow their players to enter. How satisfying would THAT be?
as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
i dont agree with this crucifying kespa for being cautious about what they participate in. if youre the biggest most prestigious brand in an industry you dont necessarily dedicate your assets to just any random crowdfunded grassroots event without some assurances on your return. im not saying it would be nonfeasible for them to have participated, but the choice not to is completely reasonable and i think its weasely to abuse the community's desire to see a good product to blame kespa for destinys inability to land their players. he did so much work putting on a good tournament that i think its really a shame to push the envelope by making it out to be some kind of "david v goliath" struggle where kespa is shitting on the fans for no reason when really its just good business
if fans want to see kespa players, all they have to do is say "hey! kespa! we liked this tournament and we want your players here next time, bro!" but calling them out like this seems like catching flies with vinegar. and saying "the old me would have been blasting them for what they did" is, in fact, blasting them for what they did, just in a less honest and straightforward way.
not looking to troll or take anything away from all the great effort into this event, just trying to bring some honesty and reality. all of that aside, i am genuinely looking forward to more from destiny
On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
Yeah even as a European, for me slightly later games would have been good. I couldn't watch the weekday games live as I was at work.
On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
Yeah even as a European, for me slightly later games would have been good. I couldn't watch the weekday games live as I was at work.
Thankfully, we at least get VODS on Youtube. They're also really well organized. :D
On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
Yeah even as a European, for me slightly later games would have been good. I couldn't watch the weekday games live as I was at work.
Thankfully, we at least get VODS on Youtube. They're also really well organized. :D
Exactly, I don't mean to sound ungrateful. There's no way to please everyone with timings.
On August 12 2014 04:21 Byyk wrote: Destiny, I am impressed. From villain of SC2 scene to the savior. Really nice work. When I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4FTflKqQ58 And now after all that time, like twist... Keep with good work, it is appreciated.
I find it funny that all those guys angry at Destiny for speaking truth are retired and have left (Geoff casts though) and Destiny lived to save SCII. Also its kind of ironic if Koreans had to leave and the scene did improve.
A few comments on the crowd-funding and sponsorship stuff: There is no good reason to stop doing both, since they could mutually reinforce each other. (A well-sponsored event lends an air of legitimacy and stability; a popular crowd-funded event -- especially a series of events -- should be attractive to sponsors.) The main problem that arises is how to raise and spend that money. It might make sense to do rounds where you first look for sponsors, then try to crowd-fund the remainder, and so forth. For example, let's say you get $2000 in confirmed sponsorships, but you want a guaranteed $4000 winnings, $1500 for casters (including yourself), some additional amount for your work, along with a good possibility of more all around. That means you would still need to raise at least $4000. You can then add extra from crowd-funding and any new sponsors in some kind of reasonable proportion to both the prize pool and to casting and organization.
Re: Cons for sponsorship: The "logos hurt tournaments" argument seems just plain wonky. As for potential conflicts and restrictions, you can deal with those on a case-by-case basis, with the general proviso that sponsors should expect a unique vibe from a Destiny event. Compromise ain't so bad. And there's nothing wrong with (nicely) rejecting a sponsorship if you think it will really hurt the event.
The "music by fans" aspect was awesome and tied in well with the crowd-funding aspect. Let's use that as an example of something a bigger sponsor might want to cut into. It might be possible to split breaks 50/50, or include sponsor content between games, but Destiny content between (longer) sets (which could clarify to viewers what's going on when they tune in between games). That sort of thing. In any case, if you have to choose between Monster and Red Bull, you're in really good shape. Thanks for the fun tourney!
Was a great watch although I couldn't watch most of it, I will check out the vods. I am glad I helped fund this first one (although not much huehue) and will most likely help out in the next one. Very happy that the viewers turned up greater then expected.
On August 12 2014 05:33 gorbonic wrote: Re: Cons for sponsorship: The "logos hurt tournaments" argument seems just plain wonky. As for potential conflicts and restrictions, you can deal with those on a case-by-case basis, with the general proviso that sponsors should expect a unique vibe from a Destiny event. Compromise ain't so bad. And there's nothing wrong with (nicely) rejecting a sponsorship if you think it will really hurt the event.
The "music by fans" aspect was awesome and tied in well with the crowd-funding aspect. Let's use that as an example of something a bigger sponsor might want to cut into. It might be possible to split breaks 50/50, or include sponsor content between games, but Destiny content between (longer) sets (which could clarify to viewers what's going on when they tune in between games). That sort of thing. In any case, if you have to choose between Monster and Red Bull, you're in really good shape. Thanks for the fun tourney!
I'd like to continue from this with the following: You could even argue that some sponsors could enforce whatever brand image you want to bring forth with the tournaments. At least in my eyes Destiny I was clearly set apart from other tournaments in regards to branding: Sleek, light graphics instead of black and steel, calm and unique music instead of kpop, rock or StarCraft tracks. Something like traditional peripheral or PC component sponsors might not be the best fit image-wise (would be weird to see black-green Razer ads among the dominantly white tournament graphics), but I thought that Jord, for example, meshed well here.
really cool write up. I think your being a bit hard on kespa but I understand where you're coming from. I think they just have it as a overall policy to not not take risks with their players and ere on the side of caution. The other thins I'll say is that I think it would be good to have it a little bit later. Living on the west coast If I sleep in I end up missing a bunch of it. really cool write up though and looking forward to the second one.
Also you have to look at it from there perspective. They probably didn't follow your build up to the tournament so as far as they were concerned it was somebody who'd never organized a tournament before asking for kespa players and they weren't sure you weren't going to put on a half ass product and try to use kespa players solelyu for bringing in viewers. at the end of the day though It's still your choice but I think dismissing them because of one email that may have come off a little harsh isn't a great idea.
Honestly screw kespa. The organization is in its own little world anyways. If they want to act like smug assholes then forget about them. There are plenty of other players that are not kespa that will attract viewers
On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote: Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here.
Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer.
Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more.
$1800 for 6+ days of work is less than $300 a day, most of us office workers can get by $200 a day just sitting around playing mmorpgs 50% of the times while at work. Seeing that destiny's getting barely any sleep a day during the 2 weeks around the tournament makes the $1800 pocketed ore than justifiable if not a bit under-deserved.
Dont listen to the guys who say you shouldnt make a living out of such a nice product. Hope you can live off the fat of the Internet for years to come man.
Online tourneys like this and the Sandisk invitational are awesome.
On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
He would have to start the stream about 10h "later" then, missing the core Euro viewers all together that he wanted to focus on. It is impossible to find a good timeslot for EU, NA and Korea, simply can't be done.
This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
anyone else noticed that the crowd funding took only 281 to complete but more than 400 people voted in the "If you contributed to the last tournament, will you contribute again to the next?" section? seems like we have a bit of haters here.
On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote: Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here.
Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer.
Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more.
$1800 for 6+ days of work is less than $300 a day, most of us office workers can get by $200 a day just sitting around playing mmorpgs 50% of the times while at work. Seeing that destiny's getting barely any sleep a day during the 2 weeks around the tournament makes the $1800 pocketed ore than justifiable if not a bit under-deserved.
It's significantly less when you factor in taxes. I wish it was $1800.
On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
KeSPA is basically a company and their players are their brand.
B-Teamers: Did you specifically ask KeSPA for B-teamers? The shown mail of the conversation doesn't mention them, so it's unclear. Also offering you B-teamers could've been seen as an insult (by you, but especially by the community). Thus it would tarnish their image. Unless you specifically asked for B-teamers it's understandable, why they didn't offer you some.
Part of their brand is exclusivity. We want KeSPA players, because KeSPA players are not in every tournament. Their brand suffers if they send their players to tournaments with a "it would be cool if we hit those numbers" goal (5k peak; 15k on finals). People want to see Flash vs Jaedong, because they don't get to see Flash vs Jaedong in every small (foreign) tournament. Yes, they have to fuck tournaments to keep their brand important.
Another problem was proleague. If you are not a SKT / KT fan, but a fan of say... Stork and he plays in Destiny I. What would you watch? Destiny I or Proleague? For some people the answer is "Destiny I". Again bad for KeSPA (It's save to assume that they favour Korean tournaments over international ones).
In the end it's your decision.
Being evil: Since it's 100% business related, the answer is pretty clear: KeSPA will increase the value of the tournament. Teams which already supported you, will support you even if you cut their player base. Liquid / EG won't pull the support, since they understand that KeSPA is adding a lot of value. Being thankful to people who helped you is certainly nice; but it's not 100% business.
Keep in mind though that being 100% business might not be the best solution to stay in the business ,)
On August 12 2014 05:01 Rikudou wrote: as a european this is a pain in the ass to say, but please start the tournament later because the koreans get really really tired in the semi finals/ grand final and that hurts the quality of the games (like Innovations 3 proxy raxes in a row) but that's your decision (it's just a idea) ! gl hf in the next tournament sir!
On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote: This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
Well, they wanted to see what the tournament looked like. I think it's a good step that you at least received some dialogue, I would have kept that off the forum but hey it is what it is. At the end of the day, you do carry a certain aura in the community, so I can't really blame them for sitting this one out. Hopefully you can appreciate that.
Awesome job on the tournament and the transparency, I really think you made giant leaps forward with Kespa as well, even though it may not feel like it right this second.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
People have bills to pay. Why do you think so many teams shut down? Taking care of your own while still producing an event with a legitimate prize pool isn't too much to ask.
price is subjective tho bro. how much do you think the redbull casters got? or the taiwan open ppl? pretty sure much more than destiny, but destiny open got most of the viewership.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
The people who donated the $1800 are the sponsoring companies not the guys who donated on indigogo.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Why would the people decide that $1,800 is acceptable if that money did not come from the people?
That money came from sponsors, and it is not easy to get the sponsors. You make it sound like the money raised through sponsors should be incorporated into the crowdsourced money. They are not and should not be the same.
However, there comes a point where the balance between sponsorship and crowdsource creates a disparity such that more money is being raised through sponsorships instead of crowdsourcing. At this point, it would be deplorable if Steven took home all the sponsorship money while the tournament itself was funded by the crowdsource.
I'd prefer a Destiny II without KESPA, Loved to have a foreigner in a final, loved to see Kane and Apocalypse gain name in a high viewership tournament. Together with the nice casting style this tournament created it's own niche, remotely similar to HSC for EU.
On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more.
Are you jelly or what???
1800$ for what he did is peanuts man.
edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
Took the words right off my keyboard.
The amount of people in here who think that doing something for profit is something to look down upon is alarming. The sponsors contributed to Destiny because they felt the advertising provided by the stream time their brand was given was profitable to them.
Both the sponsors AND Destiny had no magical knowledge that this would be a profitable endeavor before it happened, so criticisms of his success seem so unfounded and juvenile.
I like the idea of a completely community-funded tournament with no sponsors or profit but you have to find someone willing to sacrifice the time and effort to run such a thing for free.
Great tournament, Destiny, I am happy it worked out so well and will seriously consider contributing to future tournaments
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
Agreed with this 100%. $1800 for 6 days work (and however long it took him to invite a 8 players and contact the 8 ladder qualifiers) seems a bit of a joke.
I take my comments very seriously, so I don't bullshit when I say something anywhere.
With that said, Jimmeh your comment is completely asinine.
You agree with Crot4le 100%, but you don't even understand what he said. At no point did he say that his compensation for $1,800 is "a bit of a joke".
Crot4le's coment was about if Steven decided to fund his tournaments solely through crowdfunding, then his take home should be a set fee and nothing more.
And yes Steven's compensation is worth it, because it is more than just 6 days of work and some emails/invites.
$1800 is sweet fuck all for the work that went into the event. These things don't run (in a sustainable fashion) without the main organizers getting some form of payment. Time spent working on Destiny I was time that he wasn't streaming or doing other stuff to make a living.
There would be a right royal bun fight over what level of payment (fixed, fixed rate per/Hr, % etc) Destiny is entitled too if that were open for discussion. Irrespective of whether you think $1800 is too little, about right, or too much - Destiny was up front and all the donated money went to the event itself.
We've been talking about incentive for Kespa involvement etc so why not look at incentive for Destiny? Sure he gets brand Destiny advertising and is establishing himself in the event scene but not without a heap of work. If there is no tangible financial benefit for him how long could that go on for?
Great attitude from TB and the other casters, they can see that supporting and encouraging these types of (quality) events are super important to maintaining and hopefully building the SC2 scene.
Destiny, keep Kespa involvement on your radar bro. Seems their risk/benefit calculation went against you for the initial tournament but there are benefits for all parties if their players participate in future events. Bigger audience, hopefully more sponsorship interest and more flexibility around funding models etc.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
Everyone who said the $1800 is too much donated $0 to this tournament and contributed nothing to anything of importance in their life. I would take their words seriously and be too worked up about it.
I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote: Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here.
Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer.
Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more.
$1800 for 6+ days of work is less than $300 a day, most of us office workers can get by $200 a day just sitting around playing mmorpgs 50% of the times while at work. Seeing that destiny's getting barely any sleep a day during the 2 weeks around the tournament makes the $1800 pocketed ore than justifiable if not a bit under-deserved.
It's significantly less when you factor in taxes. I wish it was $1800.
maybe you should host MstrJinbo I, i'll be your first contributor.
On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more.
Are you jelly or what???
1800$ for what he did is peanuts man.
edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort.
However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable.
Lets put it in a different perspective.
Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised.
Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner.
On August 12 2014 07:47 Freeedom wrote: I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
Not sure if Destiny told the sponsors beforehand that he would take the money but atleast one of the sponsors mentioned somewhere in this thread that Destiny earned himself the money. So everything seems to be okay with them.
On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more.
Are you jelly or what???
1800$ for what he did is peanuts man.
edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort.
However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable.
Lets put it in a different perspective.
Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised.
Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner.
Actually you make a good point. It's one thing if this was stated before, vs "hey this made a lot of cash, let me keep some of it... I deserve x amount".
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
dude you're a clown. Destiny has been transparent and has not done anything weird- if anything $1800 is very little for this amount of time, effort and organization is not much at all.
Destiny I would not even reply to a guy like this one he's obviously being a dick for the sake of it
You should make provisions for properly researching and paying taxes on your crowdfunding campaigns. Funds generated through crowdfunding count as income, and any products "sold" through crowdfunding will need to include applicable sales tax.
I enjoyed the tourney and contributed a little to indiegogo, but I think those costs should only cover the prize pool. Asking to make a profit out of indiegogo contributions alone is a little much, seeing how the broadcaster already gets ad revenue.
On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek.
I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more.
Are you jelly or what???
1800$ for what he did is peanuts man.
edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort.
However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable.
Lets put it in a different perspective.
Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised.
Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner.
Actually you make a good point. It's one thing if this was stated before, vs "hey this made a lot of cash, let me keep some of it... I deserve x amount".
if he says its a 4.000$ tourney and he pays 4000$ dollars to the players then he can do whatever he wants with the rest of the money.
I wish guys like him made money so we could have more guys like him.
Crowfunding his tourney is like getting sponsored by you and me, but we dont want our brands advertised, only sc.
On August 12 2014 08:03 Derez wrote: I enjoyed the tourney and contributed a little to indiegogo, but I think those costs should only cover the prize pool. Asking to make a profit out of indiegogo contributions alone is a little much, seeing how the broadcaster already gets ad revenue.
There weren't any ads. if you've watched the stream you'd know that, and the profit wasn't even from the crowdfunding, it was from the sponsors.
On August 12 2014 07:47 Freeedom wrote: I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
Kids around at work? Do you work in a kindergarten or something? Sounds like you should buy yourself a pair of headphones.
Destiny, could you tell us how many people subscribed (or uppgraded their account) on your webiste? It would be great if you could share the average amount of people doing this (every week, month...) and compare it to the week during the tournament. It would also be interesting to see how subscriptions keep coming, as you said there are "Higher chance(s) to convert casual stream viewers to a personal fan if they enjoy the website and the community.".
This tournament has worked really great and you will get more money from sponsors without a doubt. About that, could you give some precisions about the viewership? Do you have some statistics about the countries where people watched it from?
Did you get feedbacks from those who bought the "viewers hand-off"? Did it help to determine a price to that, you don't seem to know how much this is worth yet.
As someone planning on studying online advertising, potentially focusing on Esport, I truly enjoy your transparency.
I think a second indiegogo might be a bit risky though (esp 10k). Some people might consider that you do not need the money. (EDIT : So far the Strawpolls look encouraging though) Bringing Kespa players could be a way to encourage crowfunding, no matter how blind they have been (easy to say that now, but I could have bet money on the popularity of this event) and not matter how much I would like to see K-pop remain there along with the popularity of their players. Another way, as mentioned earlier, could be working on those perks given to the crowdfunders.
Thanks for the event(s) and the answers man! Sleep well.
On August 12 2014 06:46 Zocat wrote: Another problem was proleague. If you are not a SKT / KT fan, but a fan of say... Stork and he plays in Destiny I. What would you watch? Destiny I or Proleague? For some people the answer is "Destiny I". Again bad for KeSPA (It's save to assume that they favour Korean tournaments over international ones).
There was no way that was going to happen because Proleague finished airing hours before Destiny did his broadcast. There would have never been any conflict regarding which stream to view.
Kespa only wants money, fuck em. The benefit to their players is obvious - their players will likely win it all, and make some money. Online. Without travel costs.
Kespa's comment where they ask about Destiny sponsors is just a data grab to see if they can snag esports related sponsors/contacts, this is one of the oldests sales tricks in the book. Kespa is a direct competitor to Destiny tournament series. Both are Starcraft series, though they have different markets and revenue streams, they perform the same function the same way to thes same type of viewers/market/sponsors/demographics.
Let kespa rot. They can run their communist tournament, I say international community boycott them entirely.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
On August 12 2014 04:21 Byyk wrote: Destiny, I am impressed. From villain of SC2 scene to the savior. Really nice work. When I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4FTflKqQ58 And now after all that time, like twist... Keep with good work, it is appreciated.
I find it funny that all those guys angry at Destiny for speaking truth are retired and have left (Geoff casts though) and Destiny lived to save SCII. Also its kind of ironic if Koreans had to leave and the scene did improve.
Painuser was very objective and balanced in that episode.
I want to comment on the quality of games from the NA ladder players. I was honestly surprised at the quality that the NA ladders heroes put up, and many were able to advance over clear favorites IMO (over Snute, etc.).
With that level of success on their part, I would love to see more of these style tournaments with a ladder invite to encourage play in NA.
I personally liked how destiny ran the tournament, it was awesome how his site was black completely, and then his screen had a white background with a planet and destiny written on it, that was a cool touch. I would've liked to seen more players (Expanded bracket) not necessarily korean, but foreign, such as Happy, or Grubby. That would've have been cool. I would like to see the Destiny II ran in a time where there no other tournaments running. I personally don't like the back-to-back-to-back tournaments, but you had different casters everyday, and lots of players that it was great to watch.
Hats off to destiny, He's won my support for his next tournament.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players.
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
yea i agree, and i am not trying to bring him down or hate on his work nor am i an "anti fan." it's just a poor business attitude in my opinion. if someone doesn't buy into your venture your response should be "thanks anyway, i'll prove you wrong, see you next time," not "well, fuck you, you aren't getting any of the pie later!" it's just not a smart or respectful way to operate. even if you think kespa made a mistake that doesn't really justify this kind of silly callout behavior, if anything destiny's actions here are what divide and undermine the scene
look at incontrol for example, he's a guy with an attitude who snaps and gets angry sometimes but he has a high awareness of that fact and knows when to step back and make apologies because he has the business sense to show humility to fans and partners rather than acting with entitlement
again though respect to his work putting the tournament together, but i'm not really sold on the "2014 destiny" based on this...
With crowd funding, unlike sponsorships, people like to get on the fresh hype train and support the idea of something, but are less inclined to continue that support come next time.
Food for thought, I don't know how well the logic of "next time will have more funds" will hold up, although next time will have more respectability for sure.
All in all great job tho, your risk of your "brand" has really paid off and you've gained a great many fans from this endevour.
Hello, I was the person who Destiny spoke with at KeSPA. I want to get ride of some misconceptions regarding sending B teamers and the issues with the timing of Destiny I.
First here is the players he requested: SKTT1 soo, SKTT1 Soulkey, SKTT1 Parting, SKTT1 Classic, KT Rolster Zest, KT Rolster Flash, JinAir Greenwings Maru, Prime MKP, IM Trap
Most of these players were playing the playoffs of Proleague and could have scheduling issues because of the Grand Finals. He was not asking for B teamers like other have suggested, but he wanted the top players to participate.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event.
Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about?
Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
Everyone who said the $1800 is too much donated $0 to this tournament and contributed nothing to anything of importance in their life. I would take their words seriously and be too worked up about it.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
@The other guy: There is nothing to add. You guys sitting behind computers 24/7 want to tell me what hard-work looks like. How hilarious. I'm probably exactly the opposite you think of me, I'm doing the things I do out of pure dedication.
And it is totally fine to go home with some money, but you should communicate it like that, in my opinion, that is all I wanted to say. In this country you could let someone kill a guy for 1800$, so please.
On August 11 2014 23:55 Crot4le wrote: I think if you're being funded by community in choosing crowdfunding then your 'take home' pay should merely paying your expenses and organisational and casting fee. After you have compensated yourself for the time, I think all profit should then be put towards the next tournament since it's on the back of donations that you have made that profit.
But that's just how I feel.
I don't see how crowd funding is any different from say having a pay wall for the tournament, except he's letting anyone watch regardless of whether or not they pay. Basically the crowd funding is a pay-what-you-want model for the event. It's really arrogant to think that just because it was on the back of donations, it has to be non-profit. Destiny created a product and people were willing to pay for it, I see no problems with how Destiny handled this.
That being said, I'm worried about the sustainability of crowdfunding for events like this. I really feel like the same people who dished out money for one event aren't going to continue to do so (or at least not as much as they did for the first one) over a long period of time... I could very well be wrong in this assumption however.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
On August 12 2014 09:53 Chuddinater wrote: Hello, I was the person who Destiny spoke with at KeSPA. I want to get ride of some misconceptions regarding sending B teamers and the issues with the timing of Destiny I.
First here is the players he requested: SKTT1 soo, SKTT1 Soulkey, SKTT1 Parting, SKTT1 Classic, KT Rolster Zest, KT Rolster Flash, JinAir Greenwings Maru, Prime MKP, IM Trap
Most of these players were playing the playoffs of Proleague and could have scheduling issues because of the Grand Finals. He was not asking for B teamers like other have suggested, but he wanted the top players to participate.
You don't have to reply if you don't want. I am just wanting some more information for clarification.
If Destiny's tournament occurred at a better time for Kespa players, would sending them to play in Destiny I be considered?
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
I think you should add twitch revenue, youtube revenue and the promotion of your brand to make sure everything is on the table. The revenue isn't huge but it's a part of it. And the promotion of your brand... you could keep taking small fees for hosting tournaments while building an empire that you eventually use to make a lot of money or for leverage. I'd definitely consider that part of this all although you can't quantify it.
edit: Also the whole discussion of whether $1800 is reasonable for the work seems a bit ridiculous in light of the work:pay ratio that progamers have haha
Nice Job, have to say I probably wouldn't work for that day rate... That said, the others involved should be getting a share of the booty, especially if those funding aren't aware beforehand of how it's going to be spent.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
Jesus.. You are picking out some sentences and telling me things like that, who do you the hell think you are? I already said before that I did not contribute, that it just was my personal opinion, and you guys can spend your money how you want and he can do whatever he wants. Don't get so emotional about that stuff. :D
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
Jesus.. You are picking out some sentences and telling me things like that, who do you the hell think you are. I already said before that I did not contribute, that it just was my personal opinion, and you guys can spend your money how you want and he can do whatever he wants. Don't get so emotional about that stuff..
You spoke to TB. When you speak to the english you best be ready to have words spoken at you. Quickly! Brew some tea and bake some biscuits (a biscuit is a cookie).
On August 12 2014 09:53 Chuddinater wrote: Hello, I was the person who Destiny spoke with at KeSPA. I want to get ride of some misconceptions regarding sending B teamers and the issues with the timing of Destiny I.
First here is the players he requested: SKTT1 soo, SKTT1 Soulkey, SKTT1 Parting, SKTT1 Classic, KT Rolster Zest, KT Rolster Flash, JinAir Greenwings Maru, Prime MKP, IM Trap
Most of these players were playing the playoffs of Proleague and could have scheduling issues because of the Grand Finals. He was not asking for B teamers like other have suggested, but he wanted the top players to participate.
This is exactly the reason why I asked the earlier question about whether there was additional dialogue between Destiny and Kespa besides just the letter that was posted. It looks like there was more to the story than just that isolated letter. If the list above is really who Destiny requested then it certainly is a bigger ask than random Kespa B teamers.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
Jesus.. You are picking out some sentences and telling me things like that, who do you the hell think you are. I already said before that I did not contribute, that it just was my personal opinion, and you guys can spend your money how you want and he can do whatever he wants. Don't get so emotional about that stuff..
You spoke to TB. When you speak to the english you best be ready to have words spoken at you. Quickly! Brew some tea and bake some biscuits (a biscuit is a cookie).
I'm proud he even responded, by a well-known internet-legend like him! Te amo de todo mi corazón, Galleta-total!
On August 12 2014 09:53 Chuddinater wrote: Hello, I was the person who Destiny spoke with at KeSPA. I want to get ride of some misconceptions regarding sending B teamers and the issues with the timing of Destiny I.
First here is the players he requested: SKTT1 soo, SKTT1 Soulkey, SKTT1 Parting, SKTT1 Classic, KT Rolster Zest, KT Rolster Flash, JinAir Greenwings Maru, Prime MKP, IM Trap
Most of these players were playing the playoffs of Proleague and could have scheduling issues because of the Grand Finals. He was not asking for B teamers like other have suggested, but he wanted the top players to participate.
Your communications often come over as aggressive strong-arming and at times obviously untrue statements thrown in as if they strengthen your position. Is this how business is always done in Korea or is this a language barrier thing? To a western ear it seems very immature.
The points were reasonable, the way they were made was not. It could be worded less confrontationally to not cause offence. As it is you were needlessly rude and that is now potentially denying your players income from future destiny tournaments. It seems very poor representation.
On August 12 2014 09:53 Chuddinater wrote: Hello, I was the person who Destiny spoke with at KeSPA. I want to get ride of some misconceptions regarding sending B teamers and the issues with the timing of Destiny I.
First here is the players he requested: SKTT1 soo, SKTT1 Soulkey, SKTT1 Parting, SKTT1 Classic, KT Rolster Zest, KT Rolster Flash, JinAir Greenwings Maru, Prime MKP, IM Trap
Most of these players were playing the playoffs of Proleague and could have scheduling issues because of the Grand Finals. He was not asking for B teamers like other have suggested, but he wanted the top players to participate.
Your communications often come over as aggressive strong-arming and at times obviously untrue statements thrown in as if they strengthen your position. Is this how business is always done in Korea or is this a language barrier thing? To a western ear it seems very immature.
The points were reasonable, the way they were made was not. It could be worded less confrontationally to not cause offence. As it is you were needlessly rude and that is now potentially denying your players income from future destiny tournaments. It seems very poor representation.
Seriously.. do you really think this post does not seem rude?
Is this how business is always done in Korea or is this a language barrier thing?
Especially that sentence seems more tipical from a guy sitting high on his English horse, to be honest.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
Jesus.. You are picking out some sentences and telling me things like that, who do you the hell think you are? I already said before that I did not contribute, that it just was my personal opinion, and you guys can spend your money how you want and he can do whatever he wants. Don't get so emotional about that stuff. :D
I'd like to add my name to the people who thinks you (Kimb3r) is a nutbar.
That and good job Destiny! I think, if anything, making hosting and planning tournements suistainable (ie. they pay you a living wage) is one of the best way to grow the sc2 scene. Or you could shave your shave, light some incence and live off monk-like sc2 passion - it is a substitute for food, right?
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
:D I'm obviously not appealing to a moral highground, I just wanted to point at that I DO know how it is to have a job monetarily even worse than McDonalds, and that it is okay to gain less if you do something out of love and dedication, in Destiny's case for a sport he loves. You do not need full recompensation for something you do out of reasons like that.
i'm not sure where you think you get off telling other people what they "need" for the work they do or instructing other people about what their love and dedication should mean to them... who do you think you are, man? there are a couple of minor legit criticisms you can make of his handling of this tourney, but you're just going on a witch hunt about his personal income and it's honestly creepy and rude
Jesus.. You are picking out some sentences and telling me things like that, who do you the hell think you are? I already said before that I did not contribute, that it just was my personal opinion, and you guys can spend your money how you want and he can do whatever he wants. Don't get so emotional about that stuff. :D
I'd like to add my name to the people who thinks you (Kimb3r) is a nutbar.
That and good job Destiny! I think, if anything, making hosting and planning tournements suistainable (ie. they pay you a living wage) is one of the best way to grow the sc2 scene. Or you could shave your shave, light some incence and live off monk-like sc2 passion - it is a substitute for food, right?
I'd like to point out that guys like you we use to call "un gringo de la puta madre" or solely "hijo de p***"
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
I think the response Destiny might have been looking for would have been something like:
"Sorry, your tournament conflicts with Proleague finals so those players won't be available. I'll let other players who might be interested in joining your tournament know and see if anyone would like to participate."
It is such a shame that your players missed out on this opportunity to win some money, and that we viewers missed out on watching your great players play.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
Asking questions of an organization in a public forum is not really the best way to handle things. This is a conversation to be had between Destiny and Kespa (or whoever Kespa wishes to have converse with Destiny.) If we get involved and muck things up it could turn out worse for all involved.
I would suggest we let the two main parties handle this as they are both more than capable of coming to a decision themselves.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
I think Destiny's approach was that he contacted you as an intermediary to pitch it to your players as an opportunity to play for a good chance at winning some prize money. He's not big [read: hates] on bureaucracy and red tape and seems to feel rebuffed by the way he was responded to, which was stonewalled. Given the language barrier and your access to the players, you were in a unique position to confer interest between the two parties.
Given that we don't have access to the entire conversation, I'm sure now that Destiny isn't scrambling to get invites out and information / funding sorted regarding the tournament, there can be an opportunity to work out where the mis-communication occurred and to sort that out privately.
I, for one, would be excited to see more big-name SC2 players able to participate in the tournament and would love to hear that you two worked something out behind the scenes to smooth this over.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
I think the response Destiny might have been looking for would have been something like:
"Sorry, your tournament conflicts with Proleague finals so those players won't be available. I'll let other players who might be interested in joining your tournament know and see if anyone would like to participate."
It is such a shame that your players missed out on this opportunity to win some money, and that we viewers missed out on watching your great players play.
you're acting like destiny was doing kespa a favor. lol
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
Asking questions of an organization in a public forum is not really the best way to handle things. This is a conversation to be had between Destiny and Kespa (or whoever Kespa wishes to have converse with Destiny.) If we get involved and muck things up it could turn out worse for all involved.
I would suggest we let the two main parties handle this as they are both more than capable of coming to a decision themselves.
oh ok, posting emails are ok, but me asking a question is not ok. he doesnt have to answer me, that's just a question i hope he could comment on.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
I disagree with Stephen posting your private email. I am also excited to see Kespa showing interest in the public's opinion of them.
Since you have shown that you do care about "our" opinion of Kespa, here is my personal opinion:
Kespa is more controlling than an abusive spouse. Kespa forces everyone to bend to their will and desires. As an organization, Kespa lacks the ability to give freely for the benefit of the community as a whole. In other words, if Kespa isn't the biggest winner, then they aren't going to allow anything under the control to be used.
I strongly feel that individual players should have the ability to make more decisions on their own. Let them decide among themselves and their team. If Flash wants to participate in Destiny II, and KT is ok with it....... then let him!
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
Asking questions of an organization in a public forum is not really the best way to handle things. This is a conversation to be had between Destiny and Kespa (or whoever Kespa wishes to have converse with Destiny.) If we get involved and muck things up it could turn out worse for all involved.
I would suggest we let the two main parties handle this as they are both more than capable of coming to a decision themselves.
oh ok, posting emails are ok, but me asking a question is not ok. he doesnt have to answer me, that's just a question i hope he could comment on.
You're right on both accounts. Feel free to ask away.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
just want to say good on you for tackling this head on. i really think it's unfair for destiny to sit back posting your private emails and snipe at you getting his fanbase to hate and criticize on the forums, and i applaud you for showing up to tell your side of the story. it must be very frustrating to read through pages and pages of people trashing you when they don't have the facts.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
just want to say good on you for tackling this head on. i really think it's unfair for destiny to sit back posting your private emails and snipe at you getting his fanbase to hate and criticize on the forums, and i applaud you for showing up to tell your side of the story. it must be very frustrating to read through pages and pages of people trashing you when they don't have the facts.
Just a side note: I have boycotted everything Destiny since his temper tantrum on State of the Game a loooooong time ago. So, my Kespa criticism isn't fan boy induced!
I'm also very glad to see Kespa involved at any level with the foreign community!!
Kespa: "Sure our players can win some money but what do WEEEE (The KESPA Corporation get)". Fucking fat cats wont let their players get some exposure because the high ups do not see any of the profit.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Just out of curiosity can I ask what did Totalbiscuit sell to KeSPA for the Sandisk Shoutcraft Invitational?
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
Loving the transparency Destiny. Although I didn't watch the tournament I'm glad you're contributing something relatively positive towards the community GJ
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Just out of curiosity can I ask what did Totalbiscuit sell to KeSPA for the Sandisk Shoutcraft Invitational?
From my perspective the same thing, though with a larger prizepool, smaller playpool, larger audience, dedicated Korean cast and full focus on Korean talent, staffed by a caster and cocaster the players knew.
That said I would like to hear Chuddinaters answer. KeSPAs perspective is protecting the players and also doing their sponsors the fullest possible service, which is completely justifiable. That's why KeSPA is as successful as it is, literally no esports organization on planet earth protects their players and gives their sponsors ROI better than KeSPA does.
Think about it that way. What does SKT gain from playing in a foreign event? By SKT I'm talking the sponsor not the team. Not much. SKT sells services in Korea, not America. That's why I've been trying my best to integrate better with the Korean audience so we can actually help those sponsors. I want KeSPA to succeed, I want all of Starcraft to succeed. That I think if anything is the one thing that didn't come across well in Chuddinators response. It almost seems like tournament organizers are being labeled as an enemy and players are a commodity. I don't agree with that. We're not enemies, we're on the same side.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
who posted emails again? i forgot.
It was an e-mail sent while representing a large organization. You want to talk "professionalism"..? Do you really think any e-mail sent on behalf of one business to another is EVER expected to stay private? Do you even understand why NDA's exist?
If you're this pants-on-head retarded, why the fuck would you waste someone's time responding to them in a public forum?
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Your argument is partly contradictory because you're not inviting Kespa players to help them win "easy money in a foreign tournament", you're doing it to help yourself by relying on Kespa's brand to increase the relevancy of your name and tournament. In short, you are doing the exact thing that you are criticizing Kespa for doing, except your tone is complaining because you're on the wrong side of it.
This could easily be reversed if less known people ask to be invited to your next tournament and you tell them "sorry but no, your name isn't big enough to help my viewer numbers even if you win, so what's in it for me?"
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
I think your response was fine and fair. Destiny just likes to stir up trouble. Pro league grand finals is way more important and special. He can get plenty of other players.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Your argument is partly contradictory because you're not inviting Kespa players to help them win "easy money in a foreign tournament", you're doing it to help yourself by relying on Kespa's brand to increase the relevancy of your name and tournament. In short, you are doing the exact thing that you are criticizing Kespa for doing, except your tone is complaining because you're on the wrong side of it.
This could easily be reversed if less known people ask to be invited to your next tournament and you tell them "sorry but no, your name isn't big enough to help my viewer numbers even if you win, so what's in it for me?"
But inviting Kespa players is mutually beneficial. More views for Destiny, more money for Kespa players. There's nothing wrong with Destiny inviting players that people want to see. Your reversed scenario doesn't make sense at all since it's only beneficial in one direction.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
On August 12 2014 11:37 jellyjello wrote: You don't really take criticism well, do you?
Most people dont when they're being leapt on by the people they just put a tournament on for. Try to have a little empathy for that. Most people are never put in positions like this, so they can't really understand what it's like.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
You don't really take criticism well, do you?
This post was a great contribution to the thread. 9/11 would read again.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Just out of curiosity can I ask what did Totalbiscuit sell to KeSPA for the Sandisk Shoutcraft Invitational?
From my perspective the same thing, though with a larger prizepool, smaller playpool, larger audience, dedicated Korean cast and full focus on Korean talent, staffed by a caster and cocaster the players knew.
That said I would like to hear Chuddinaters answer. KeSPAs perspective is protecting the players and also doing their sponsors the fullest possible service, which is completely justifiable. That's why KeSPA is as successful as it is, literally no esports organization on planet earth protects their players and gives their sponsors ROI better than KeSPA does.
Think about it that way. What does SKT gain from playing in a foreign event? By SKT I'm talking the sponsor not the team. Not much. SKT sells services in Korea, not America. That's why I've been trying my best to integrate better with the Korean audience so we can actually help those sponsors. I want KeSPA to succeed, I want all of Starcraft to succeed. That I think if anything is the one thing that didn't come across well in Chuddinators response. It almost seems like tournament organizers are being labeled as an enemy and players are a commodity. I don't agree with that. We're not enemies, we're on the same side.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
Kespa is prohibiting player to participate, the idea that they must alow it is ridiculous itself in my opinion. Every e-sport organization other than Kespa seens to agree with that. They have nothing to lose, worst case scenario the tournament gets a low viewership and they would lose nothing if that happens. Also, i think it was nonsensical to ask for sponsors to be mentioned in a crowd funded tournament, or mentioning that the tournament should make a name first when its named and organized by a person as famous in the Starcraft 2 scene as Destiny, that whlie the sucessful crowd funding was running. The numbers speak for themselves. Kespa should at least do some research/thinking before they deny opportunities to their own players.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings. What does 9/11 mean ? Are you refering to the terrioist attacks on the World Trade Center ? My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
You don't really take criticism well, do you?
This post was a great contribution to the thread. 9/11 would read again.
What is 9/11? Are you talking about the World Trade Center
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
who posted emails again? i forgot.
It was an e-mail sent while representing a large organization. You want to talk "professionalism"..? Do you really think any e-mail sent on behalf of one business to another is EVER expected to stay private? Do you even understand why NDA's exist?
If you're this pants-on-head retarded, why the fuck would you waste someone's time responding to them in a public forum?
my reply was more towards your statement of "if he starts to reply, why cant i". of course hes going to reply when you're trying to paint him as a bad guy.
do i care if you're professional? not really, u can do whatever the fuck you want. its your life, if you want to be seen as a guy who'll post work emails on public forums, terrific for you.
as for your earlier comment on you didnt like the contents of the email, i can't see why. he brought up very valid points. nothing he wrote was false. you would've gained more attention/viewership with kespa's involvement, it was your first tournament, you probably didnt know how it was going to turn out and you didnt let him know sponsors. i mean how was he not going to be skeptical about this? next time you'll have better answers to these questions though.
On August 12 2014 11:48 Superbanana wrote: Kespa is prohibiting player to participate, the idea that they must alow it is ridiculous itself in my opinion. Every e-sport organization other than Kespa seens to agree with that. They have nothing to lose, worst case scenario the tournament gets a low viewership and they would lose nothing if that happens.
nothing to lose is quite dependent on the person's view. you might think it doesnt matter to kespa, but they clearly have their own set of criterias
Also, i think it was nonsensical to ask for sponsors to be mentioned in a crowd funded tournament, or mentioning that the tournament should make a name first when its named and organized by a person as famous in the Starcraft 2 scene as Destiny, that whlie the sucessful crowd funding was running. The numbers speak for themselves. Kespa should at least do some research/thinking before they deny opportunities to their own players.
they didnt ask for sponsors to be mentioned, they asked if the tournament had any sponsors. what does him being famous or had a successful crowd funding have to do with anything? we've all seen MANY times that money does not guarantee a successful tournament, so no, the number did not speak for themselves. there was nothing to go on, no previous experience, no previous viewership numbers to point to.
On August 12 2014 11:48 jellyjello wrote: Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
I heartily disagree with your assessment and attempt to reframe the issue to better support your argument.
On August 12 2014 11:48 jellyjello wrote: Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
I heartily disagree with your use of dialect, I think you meant to use dialogue?
Kind of shows you how Kespa operates that they wanted to get something in return for allowing their players to play in a simple online tournament. I mean do you really need to demand a benefit from that? You have to wonder if the Sc2 scene is really healthy enough for them to demand something in return for even a small tournament like this. Just let your players play for the good of the scene as a whole rather than milking every dollar you can.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all.
When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG?
Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended?
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
If you are a conservative organization like Kespa any potential for controversy is too much controversy. Personally I wish they would have taken a chance with Destiny but I understand why they wont. But I also think Destiny should be the bigger person here and get over what he perceives as a slight and not view this as Kespa waiting for him to do 'all the hard work' and then 'profit' of it. Kespa players at Destiny II is a win-win scenario definitely. Kespa players at Destiny I was probably a win win scenario but too risky from their perspective.
On August 12 2014 11:29 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
TB, sometimes i agree with you, often i disagree, but i have a lot of respect for what you do in this scene and your intelligence and ambition as a businessman. that said, the thing that most often puts me off about figures such as yourself and destiny is what i perceive as an attitude of massive entitlement and egoism, and this statement is a good example. in the OP, destiny speaks as if he is an individual of great importance to whom KESPA is somehow obligated/indebted, and it seems as if he tries to rally his fanbase/the community against them for the crime of disregarding his tournament. as i said in an earlier post, even if it's felt that KESPA made a mistake in how they handled his proposition, i don't feel it's necessary or appropriate to start feuds and stir anger over what is simply a business decision the likes of which are made every day in every industry
similarly, in your post, you take one person's rudeness and use it as an excuse to throw your hands in the air and start railing against the entire community (which you rely on for the livelihood of your esports brand) as a flock of ignorant babies who are too immature and misinformed to understand why your product/destiny's product/your opinion/etc. is some great favor and blessing which they should thank you for and never question. i think it's abjectly ridiculous to claim that "we can't have transparency" because a certain percentage of the community will inevitably react poorly. if anything, by focusing on and complaining about their misbehavior, you are doing your part to ensure that the vocal minority of haters and destructive attitudes continue feeling vindicated in what they do and continuing the cycle of hostility
i understand that you are a no-nonsense person who believes in transparency and honesty, and i understand the benefits of those attributes when it comes to getting results and making things happen. but i don't feel that it entirely justifies the pattern i've seen from certain individuals (sometimes including yourself and destiny) of mocking and berating anyone who questions your business model or decisions and rallying your fanbases against people until they've just been shouted out of the conversation.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all.
When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG?
Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended?
Their threshold for controversy is probably much lower than a Western tournaments, and the people who they are worried about arent Western SC2 fans but Korean telecoms and their equivalents. [Here is an example. A Kespa player is in a game where that one annoying spammer dropped the racial epitaphs. Some annoying muckraker then emails Samsung or Korean Telecom and cc's the korean version of yellow press and says "why do you associate with a known racist who has mods that promote racial views." Then they link a screen grab of the racial abuse, your name and then your online trail, including your comments when you were much less mature and much younger regarding certain races. And there you go, controversy. Is this an extreme? Of course, but remember when you were hounded by random people who had 0 actual relation to the SC2 scene out of a team? It appears that Kespa views the relatively small chance of this chain of events occurring as unpalatable.]
Like I said, I agree that they should have thrown a bone your way for the greater good but I also understand why they didnt in the first iteration. Everyone thinks you did a great job man, and the tournament exceeded even your expectation. If they choose to not send players to Destiny II then I am on your side 100%.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Even if the spammer that snuck into the games had spammed screenfuls of racial epithets rather than random characters. That stuff doesn't look very good on Destiny.
On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote: Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa.
Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive.
I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally?
WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [
What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all.
When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG?
Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended?
Their threshold for controversy is probably much lower than a Western tournaments, and the people who they are worried about arent Western SC2 fans but Korean telecoms and their equivalents. [Here is an example. A Kespa player is in a game where that one annoying spammer dropped the racial epitaphs. Some annoying muckraker then emails Samsung or Korean Telecom and cc's the korean version of yellow press and says "why do you associate with a known racist who has mods that promote racial views." Then they link a screen grab of the racial abuse, your name and then your online trail, including your comments when you were much less mature and much younger regarding certain races. And there you go, controversy. Is this an extreme? Of course, but remember when you were hounded by random people who had 0 actual relation to the SC2 scene out of a team? It appears that Kespa views the relatively small chance of this chain of events occurring as unpalatable.]
Like I said, I agree that they should have thrown a bone your way for the greater good but I also understand why they didnt in the first iteration. Everyone thinks you did a great job man, and the tournament exceeded even your expectation. If they choose to not send players to Destiny II then I am on your side 100%.
Well you just invented this scenario out of thin air after just deeming Kespa a "conservative" organization, as if that is a substantive defense rather than just a description of what Destiny asserts is the problem in the first place.
This level of conservatism from Kespa, if indeed your scenario were the case, is just imprudent and deserving of criticism. The benefit of letting their players play in a harmless outweighs the highly unlikely downside.
And I don't think it is wariness of controversy that kept Kespa out of this tournament. It is them wanting something in exchange for letting their players play.
I'm pretty amazed at the amount of work needed to run something even like Destiny I, not to say it was poorly done. Really opened up my eyes to just how complex running any tournament is. Kudos to the hard work, and the transparency.
The Kespa issue may be best resolved in a tit for tat way. I hate it, but if they realize they're missing out legitimately on prize money and exposure it might make them more polite.
He was transparent with why Kespa players did not attend. He posted a primary document so it wasn't just hearsay. He was transparent about how much he paid himself and how he did that. He was transparent about how much went to players and how he paid for that.
People say posting a primary document was too much in hurting his relation with a group. (He posted his thoughts on that group and asked the community what they would like.)
People accused him of theft for paying himself. (Apparently making money is bad. If this is so why doesn't everyone yell at CEOs/game developers?) Edit: I guess a lot of people do yell at game developing companies for on release dlc/yada.
People didn't mention anything about making payments to players on time. (Some tournaments have had this issue in the past. I'm not surprised no one mentioned this in great detail.)
Total Biscuit says, roughly not quoting him on this for a reason, transparency is only wanted when it is convenient, and it can cause issues when people are.
So I think both Destiny is correct in his use of transparency (it is what people wanted and what he promised) and TotalBiscuit is correct in his assessment that transparency can cause issues. Was posting a primary document too much? Probably not, primary documents are needed to verify information. We can't all get our news from tertiary sources all day long. That is how mice turn into monsters.
My opinion is a lot of you are just trying to find a reason to be upset because you want to be upset. That is your choice. You're free to do that. I am just here to TLDR the events people are angry (mostly upset. Thankfully there has been minimal ad hominem) about.
I have no opinion on Kespa, at the end of the day it is their choice to do what they want with their players. You can form your own opinion, that's up to you.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
I have so much respect for this level of transparency, Destiny. Seriously, the game and industry needs more people like you doing cool stuff like this.
Discussing money over TL.. that is professionalism at its best!
You guys are talking buisness while Chuddinater is the only one who sees this scene and this sport from a professional angle and who is completely right in his points. It is hilarious, the people posting and hating here simply do NOT understand the money-part in this buisness. I would say that someone like TB completely agrees with the recent post of Chuddinater.
If people want to be part of a growing game, they have to approach this scene with professionalism, like KeSPA is doing it. Has anyone ever heard that they do not pay out their prize money or stuff like that? In the recent interview of GerrardPrime, we can read that he is grateful for the work KeSPA does, but we think they have to say things like that. I doubt that. Some rules seem strange to us, but it is normality in todays professional sports. So you can not chat while playing Proleague.. well, some flaming players are bad for sponsors - and sponsors are essential if we want to have a competitive scene in the future, and no crowdfuning-stuff.
But how do you get a business relationship without trying to establish one in the first place... The subtext seems to be you need to prove you are worthy of a business relationship before you will be considered. Otherwise the initial invitation would have gotten more traction? i.e. wasn't that an expression of (business) interest from Destiny?
Good Job Destiny, but don't show internal emails. The whole issue could be discussed without showing this. But that is just a minor issue. I hope you have success with your next tournament. I also understand that your approach to "transparency" is positive. It is some kind of marketing tool, because of your public image and your dependence of crowdfunding. It makes sense.
But at the same time it opens room for discussion, which no business has to discuss and an open discussion can even hurt (i.e. salary issues, but also sponsor issues etc.). Some crucial decisions are highly debatable and posting them in a public forum will make them highly debated. TB was kinda shocked about his DH Moscow statement. But it was posted in a discussion forum... what do you expect?
Actually transpareny is not the holy grail and it can be overrated.
So i only hope that Destiny learned the most important lessons here.
Never ever be transparent, or face the the rage of twelve year old humanitarians that work in Peru of Africa for making money with something you do...
It was fun tournament but fuck this transparency shit, there is too much kids that haven't worked a day in their life's and previously mentioned humanitarians...
could you comment on the general criticism of disallowing players to participate in an online tournament with very little time investment but potential price money that for some could be considered substantial? Not referring to Destiny I in particular. Also, why players don't have control over participating in an online tournament like this one in the first place. Winning 1,600$ or 800$ from competing in a manageable player pool might be drops in a bucket for Kespa, but I strongly assume it would make a difference for a lesser known player's financial situation.
Wait a second, I know that I might have dickrided Kespa in the past due to their big support for BW but this is an entire level of ridiculous.
Isn't Kespa's official intention is to grow esport as much as they can and spread it?
This is totally against their official intentions. By having there players, this is creating more awareness for SC2 tournaments and thus increase publicity on all sides in the Korean community, and foreign community.
I would understand that Kespa might be concerned with Destiny actually paying the players but unlike other "organizations" that just magically come up with a load of money, Destiny actually have the Indigogo page to prove that he actually have the funds. This is way better than all the other companies that have no factual proof if they actually have the fund or not. So this event should be even MORE credible than MANY other event out there, not less.
In the end, this is just pure BS that Kespa wouldn't want their players to participate, which can benefit all parties involved because they are not getting any direct cash from this.
On August 12 2014 15:32 Varest wrote: Hi Chuddinator,
could you comment on the general criticism of disallowing players to participate in an online tournament with very little time investment but potential price money that for some could be considered substantial? Not referring to Destiny I in particular. Also, why players don't have control over participating in an online tournament like this one in the first place. Winning 1,600$ or 800$ from a manageable player pool might be drops in a bucket for an institution, but I strongly assume it would make a difference for a lesser known player's financial situation.
I don't think the regulations are as tight as you think they are, didn't Solar(Samsung Galaxy) become known through online foreign tournaments? Small ones.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Destiny I and Go4SC2 for KeSPA teams? At the very least we've seen Samsung players like Solar and Armani appearing in them.
Yeah I think it's kinda neat to post financial documents; get a bit of an "insider look" at tournament organization (it looks like a ton of work! Kudos for doing it all!)
Shame that the whole email with Kespa thing is just a little cringeworthy. People just don't like negotiating with someone who might expose their private correspondence; though I imagine the two will move beyond this pretty easily. No matter how dumb Kespa's reasoning might be (I personally think it's a bit uptight, but understandable), better to respect the privacy of negotiation and just paraphrase the exchange.
Anyway, I hope Destiny continues his work and maybe gets some support organizing, if the next event is to be even bigger!
I don't think the regulations are as tight as you think they are, didn't Solar(Samsung Galaxy) become known through online foreign tournaments? Small ones.
This is what I'm referring to:
On July 22 2014 06:18 OGamingTV wrote: I can told you why there is no KeSPa players except for MarineKing. First good Korean players are related to KeSPA. I have good relations with some KeSPA players but I'm not allowed to invite them to the tournament because I need the coach/manager of the team to allow his players to be on the tournament. But my only way to talk to the manager is to talk to the player but they are not allowed to tell me who contact. We need to contact KeSPA but it's really hard to do.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask on this account or PM me on Aeromi.
I think KeSPA was just protecting their players more than anything. Think of them spending their time/resources, (however minuscule) to "send" their players your way and having it be a worst case scenario (major stream or organizational/time management problems etc). They would probably be a little annoyed and don't have a tolerance for things like that methinks.
In the light of the earlier WEC drama, It is interesting to read about Kespa's response to another new tournament. While it is understandable for Kespa to regulate its players and "protect" the interests of teams and Korean sponsors, I have the feeling that the entire Kespa system, although effective in producing top tire pro players and works in Korean, is not quite to the taste of communities nowadays. And why transparency is bad? Sure you can avoid criticism by shrouding yourself in a mist and still run a good event, but I do believe more transparency is good for the communities in the long run.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament.
While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams?
While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all.
This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so.
The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets.
who posted emails again? i forgot.
It was an e-mail sent while representing a large organization. You want to talk "professionalism"..? Do you really think any e-mail sent on behalf of one business to another is EVER expected to stay private? Do you even understand why NDA's exist?
If you're this pants-on-head retarded, why the fuck would you waste someone's time responding to them in a public forum?
People online do this very often, they have a private conversation, there is a conflict and they take it public to raise a mob, to win the favour of the public. You can see it in politics, two guys giving public statements to the press, sending jabs at each other instead of picking up a phone and having an adult conversation. So yes, by posting the email publicly you’re forcing the other party to respond publicly to save their image. Be the better person and ask for the B teamers if you really want them involved.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Just out of curiosity can I ask what did Totalbiscuit sell to KeSPA for the Sandisk Shoutcraft Invitational?
From my perspective the same thing, though with a larger prizepool, smaller playpool, larger audience, dedicated Korean cast and full focus on Korean talent, staffed by a caster and cocaster the players knew.
That said I would like to hear Chuddinaters answer. KeSPAs perspective is protecting the players and also doing their sponsors the fullest possible service, which is completely justifiable. That's why KeSPA is as successful as it is, literally no esports organization on planet earth protects their players and gives their sponsors ROI better than KeSPA does.
Think about it that way. What does SKT gain from playing in a foreign event? By SKT I'm talking the sponsor not the team. Not much. SKT sells services in Korea, not America. That's why I've been trying my best to integrate better with the Korean audience so we can actually help those sponsors. I want KeSPA to succeed, I want all of Starcraft to succeed. That I think if anything is the one thing that didn't come across well in Chuddinators response. It almost seems like tournament organizers are being labeled as an enemy and players are a commodity. I don't agree with that. We're not enemies, we're on the same side.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
It's a shame Kespa are so short sighted. Chud's post really confirms that rather than doing anything to dispel that image. I get that they're wary, that's the one thing i will give them a lot of credit for because few things in espats piss me off more than seeing players out of pocket from late payouts or sponsors bailing on teams. But the rest of the post made me gag a little, and i'm still a bit dizzy from all the spin.
I would definitely support not bothering to invite their playes to the next tournament because it's apparent that their goals don't align with yours, or the growth of the scene in general. But they'll surely make you out to be the bad guy should you do it, so i'm unsure if it's worth taking a stand. At least Destiny is putting in a bit of effort in improving his image, credit there dude.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament.
While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams?
While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all.
This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it.
If I'm mistaken then please correct me!
That's probably the general problem, KeSPA is sponsors first, teams and players second - just look at the team names. In this case it's a bit risky venture but players would definitely benefit, not to mention that it's just 8 invites, all you need to do is send one or two players. And I definitely agree with the previous sentiment that Korea needs more support since GSL got stripped to three seasons.
I think Kespa was justified in not allowing their players join Destinys tournament. I don't have anything against Destiny, but I mean the Proleague Finals was the biggest event of the year for Kespa, committing any of your players to other events cheapens Proleagues image.
Reading this thread, all I hope for is that Destiny can find a way to work with Kespa to straighten things out. We'd all love more Kespa players in the next tournament.
Furthermore, perhaps Destiny should think about catering to the Korean audience.
I've had business dealings in the Far East and this isn't anything out of the ordinary as a dialogue. It's not Kespa saying no, they are saying 'show me then sell me'. Personally, I wouldn't have started out asking for the 'big dogs' in Kespa as Destiny apparently did. They may have been more receptive to other representatives, though ultimately I doubt it.
I think it's just culture differences that give the perception of the Kespa representative being rude or immature. In business, they don't beat around the bush.
For once, Kespa makes perfect sense and the unwillingness to send players and the following reactions seems way out of proportion to the simple: "We don't know you, why should we play in your tournament?" Which Destiny really couldn't provide a good answer to.
It's ok if you want to bypass KeSPA as a 3rd party. But if you keep posting shit that makes them look bad, they might go the extra mile to ensure no KeSPA player can participate in your tournaments. Bad for you, bad for KeSPA, and most importantly bad for the players.
Sorry, posting the email was just a mistake. It is a private conversation and it was used to build up pressure or to attack a decision. The decision might be wrong and you dont like it, but you used the forum to argue about this. That is not how you build up trust.
And yes people may like KeSPA or not. There are good arguments to call them mafia. But the point in this discussion is, that someone had interests and the other guy had different interests and they haven't matched. So next time, try to match them and don't stir up the issue.
I hope your very good tournament and work will not be influence too much by this discussion and you have learned something.
Specifically for destiny about kespa... Something to consider. + Show Spoiler +
KeSPA
I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well.
I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament.
Courtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact
This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community.
For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do.
I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves.
I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event.
Pros
Having KeSPA players at my event would almost undeniably bolster viewership.
KeSPA players at my event would make it a bit more relevant to the overall scene. Koreans who were previously uninterested in my tournament might become interested.
Building good relationships with KeSPA open the doors for a lot of things down the line, including access to their players/media networks.
Cons
I hate that they completely skipped the first tournament because they were "worried it wasn't worth their time" and then might jump in on the second one.
I don't like to condone selfish and damaging behavior in the e-sports community.
Going forward
I'm still not decided on how I'll approach this issue.
Please cordially invite kespa again. I feel that it would be a small injustice to not offer kespa the chance to participate again. The reply by kespa seemed that they were a little worried that one of your sponsors also sponsored their players and did not want to offend either you or them.
Something to consider- Capitalism is very different than asian systems.
First off Kespa is an asian organization. Asian communities have a philosophy built into their languages. For example, in general, taking risks is considered bad. You can offend someone you need later on in life so you want to be careful. When i read your discussion with kespa i felt your statements did not reflect the difference in philosophy. Your statements like I don't understand why they wouldn't want their players to have more money. This is a capitalist point of view. Since kespa is an asian organization, that probably isn't the way the perceive things.
I would argue, asian organizations do not work that way. A small bit of bad publicity could completely ruin their reputation and permanently keep one of their sponsors from helping their teams. In the worst case, one player gets 1600 or even 800 dollars, but by chance the negative publicity from some detail loses them a sponsor. The idea that an entire team(not individual) fails is a big risk to them. They have no clear reference on how you organize things, and you didn't at the time have an inside reference that was close enough philosophically for them. For the second tournament, now you have good references particularly from acer staff and innovation. (The other challenge is how to help the koreans so they do not stay up until 4 am.) I definitely would not view the kespa response as negative or a display of non-interest. -----------------------------
The Innovation incident handling- In your tournament you only had 1 korean player who had other matches that he was juggling. Like when you were flexible and had patreus and adnominus play before innovation. This was handled extremely well given the circumstances.
In contrast, Imagine the players being put in a situation like innovation did where he had other matches to prepare for and play and you did not accommodate for him. In some tournaments, he would be disqualified and rumors circulate. Even some publicity would come out that the players didn't want to play or rumors which weren't true. Information would circulate on the korean gaming websites like PlayXp. This would be considered in the asian community a gesture. Its an implied choice not to play since the other tournament was more important. This could be considered an offense to you, but they want to be more careful so that they do not offend you because they do not know who you are or your sponsors.
------------------------------- I think is would be an injustice to not give the gesture of offering the kespa players a chance to participate. Even though I prefer to have a some non-kespa players in the finals like drg, impact, super, innovation, huk, etc.
If you discuss again, understanding asian risk assessment, I would suggest to request innovation and his coaches as a reference for the next tournament, as well as a bit of discussion of how to accommodate their players will definitely help both face time of the koreans in the foreign scene as well as giving the opportunity to win to the largest player base possible. Even without the kespa players I think you'll get similar viewership to be honest.
So, I am guessing this thread went from a constructive discussion about Destiny I, and the future to a battle into Kespa land?
blah, I am just going to go back to the tournament itself. I usually would have watched it, I watch most tournaments but had some personal issues come up. That said I still read through the first post, and believe everything is really well constructed based off one person doing it. My natural thought going forward would be the relief of the first one being successful, and puts a lot out of the way for hosting a second one. With the amount of viewers, and it generating a eye around the Sc2 community naturally I would think sponsors would be much more approving of hopping on board. I also think how ever you earn your money should be something that you focus on for all your work. Personally I don't feel anyone should have the right to complain about how much someone makes that isn't a CEO of a company like a Panera's, or something, which they are self absorbed, and only care about them selves. I feel this country is heading towards another civil war anyways(I won't even get started on that.), so last thing people should do is attack you for how much you make.
I kinda of feel this is like a Homestory cup in the making, except all done online.
One suggestion, which I feel is pretty unrealistic, but I am going to mention it anyways. The advertisement starts it is like a movie intro deep voice mumble mumble about they were enemies and this one time only they will come together for you guys. *BOOM* Idra/Destiny Casting in the same room. Only on Destiny II! *Viewers skyrocket*
Using negatives to make a positive.
Ok, I am done ranting, this no name is going back in his cave for another few months or so. lol
I didn't read much of the discussion. But KeSPA's response is relatively normal from a business-perspective. Destiny gets more out of KeSPA players than they get out of the event. No different than for any other talent agency.
I get that it gives more chances for the player to win money but it also requires their time, effort and KeSPA's involvement/proceedings. In Street Fighter, if you want Daigo to play in your show or competition, you have to book him 4 weeks in advance and there may be an appearance fee (for X amount). That's just how it is, he is very much in demand and you have to justify his appearance with more than just a chance to win money.
It's also very normal for an organization and their players to consider your competition once its made a significant impact on the scene and international interest to help with the players/teams branding. That's normal too.
I'm not saying I approve or disapprove, I'm just saying there's a lot of reaction for something that is more or less expected.
Also shame on you Steven for posting private emails. You can maintain transparency by showing discretion and not posting full, uncensored, emails when you could easily paraphrase it in your own words that respect the person's confidentiality in your exchange as well as their decision (acceptance/decline).
All in all, I think the tournament is off to a great start for further iterations and it's commending to see you push things forward. I think as you grow the brand, more opportunities will arise and don't take business answers to a personal level and things should iron out for the best.
On August 12 2014 18:53 Torte de Lini wrote: I didn't read much of the discussion. But KeSPA's response is relatively normal from a business-perspective. Destiny gets more out of KeSPA players than they get out of the event. No different than for any other talent agency.
I get that it gives more chances for the player to win money but it also requires their time, effort and KeSPA's involvement/proceedings. In Street Fighter, if you want Daigo to play in your show or competition, you have to book him 4 weeks in advance and there may be an appearance fee (for X amount). That's just how it is, he is very much in demand and you have to justify his appearance with more than just a chance to win money.
It's also very normal for an organization and their players to consider your competition once its made a significant impact on the scene and international interest to help with the players/teams branding. That's normal too.
I'm not saying I approve or disapprove, I'm just saying there's a lot of reaction for something that is more or less expected.
Also shame on you Steven for posting private emails. You can maintain transparency by showing discretion and not posting full, uncensored, emails when you could easily paraphrase it in your own words that respect the person's confidentiality in your exchange as well as their decision (acceptance/decline).
All in all, I think the tournament is off to a great start for further iterations and it's commending to see you push things forward. I think as you grow the brand, more opportunities will arise and don't take business answers to a personal level and things should iron out for the best.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament.
While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams?
While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all.
This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it.
If I'm mistaken then please correct me!
This is exactly what has been wrong, is wrong and hopefully not always be wrong about an organization like KeSPA. I don't mind a governing body with rules and authority but deciding for teams and players what tournaments they participate in is WAY too much control.
1800$ is definately on the low-end, anyone who claims otherwise is clueless. I really liked the tournament.
I hope the 2011/2012 destiny isn't gone because he is really entertaining. I also found the trolls to be hilarious, even though I'm sure they were frustrating to you. Frankly, the games themselves are less entertaining than the casters and whatever fuckups occurs.
On August 12 2014 15:23 TrutY wrote: So i only hope that Destiny learned the most important lessons here.
Never ever be transparent, or face the the rage of twelve year old humanitarians that work in Peru of Africa for making money with something you do...
It was fun tournament but fuck this transparency shit, there is too much kids that haven't worked a day in their life's and previously mentioned humanitarians...
Peru of Africa
What.
So, destiny was completely within his rights regarding this $1800 payment shit. He didnt take a cent from the crowdfunding money he said he would use entirely for the tournament so everybody needs to get some perspective.
The Kespa situation though..oh destiny, why would you go down the road of posting emails publicly and calling them out. You even then go on to say "Well chudd is posting in public now why cant i!" He's posting in public because you forced his/kespas hand to reply to the situation or suffer PR backlash from something somebody else has done to purposefully hurt their company.
Their original email that you posted was not rude, it wasn't out of order and they weren't even stonewalling you. They answered with legitimate concerns and wariness and questions regarding you and your tournament. This is after you requested A-team superstars to attend your tiny crowdfunded grassroots tournament (especially from koreas point of view, i doubt they even know you or the tournament exist.)
You then didn't reply to them further and got all upset you didn't get an automatic "yes!" when if you had kept the conversation up could probably have ended up with several of Kespa's players in attendance (yes likely B-teamers). You were unwilling to explain yourself to the NBA as a high-school coach. Your lack of communication after being met with a hesitant no and questions about you and your tournament makes it look like you made a demand to kespa, not a request.
I fully believe kespas only reason for not having players participate is that Destiny requested A-team superstars right out of the gate and most of them would be busy with one of the most important korean events on their calender anyway. He then dropped all further communication with them until this thread. Why would they start contacting teams and players about an opportunity to play in a small tournament if they tournament itself showed no further interest in gaining kespas teams/players/support.
I sincerely doubt this was kespa blocking their teams / players from participating at all, they just never got to the point of informing them of the "opportunity" because of Destiny's lack of communication and therefore interest. Once again this "opportunity" being a random, no-name, grassroots, crowdfunded tournament of absolutely no significance to anybody in korea that failed to communicate, answer questions or show legitimate interest in having kespa players participate.
tl;dr - Destiny's own fault kespa players didnt attend imo.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
In a very short-sighted, selfish way, you have no obligation to help any part of any scene grow, ever. But that's such an incredibly narrow and short-sighted view that I can't imagine this being said with 100% honesty. A bustling foreigner scene is as good for Korea as a bustling Korean scene is as good for everyone in the West, surely everyone here believes that, right? This doesn't seem to be the golden era BW days as it once was, where Korea can afford to blow off the rest of the world and operate 100% endemically, especially when SC2's popularity in Korea is dwindling so much compared to other games such as, say, League of Legends. Even FIFA Online 3/Sudden Attack rank well above Starcraft, and I'm not even sure if this metric is tracking SC2 or BW.
Only some 2500-3000 people attended the SPL finals, and while some people pass that off as a good number, it's pitiful compared to the live audience Brood War once had. Hell, even last year's Proleague finals for BW's venue of 7,000-10,000 was completely filled.
Also, I take issue with using "we" here, in regards to preference of participation. I'm pretty sure most of the KeSPA players would enjoyed the opportunity to play in an online tournament to compete for a $4,000 prize pool, especially against such an easy selection of opponents. The fact that your sponsorships take precedence over player preferences, though, makes it unlikely that they ever get to make such decisions on their own.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
I'll be very blunt in my response: yes.
Considering that MC has earned an average of 94,000 USD over the past 5 years and still decided to attend should be an indication of that. E-sports is a very, very short lived career. You are not paying anymore than a very small handful of players a sum of money great enough to carry them through the rest of their lives. If players like INnoVation and MC are willing to play for a $4,000 prize pool online, I'm sure there are KeSPA players that would have enjoyed the opportunity as well. But again, KeSPA is not about protecting player interests, first, it is about protecting sponsorship interests first.
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
I can understand this. I just think it's sad that players in the East miss out on an opportunity to easily play games in a Western hosted online tournament. It's precluding them from growing their potential fan base, it's cutting them off from earning additional income and it's disparaging to fans in the West
Regardless, though, I do understand your decision making, and I appreciate you being as candid as you were here. I'm sorry if you find it rude for me to have posted the e-mail publicly but I find that going by "hearsay" leads to a lot of unnecessary rumors/chatter starting. I hope you can understand that as well as I can try to understand your point of view.
Again, I appreciate the candid response. I hope there's some point where your organization sees a benefit in providing players for my tournaments, assuming these arguments haven't destroyed the possibility.
Regarding future tournaments: will there still be invites? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing everybody qualifying through the ladder. And with a tournament of at least 16 people, you are bound to get several big names anyways. Their names aren't big for no reason.
On August 12 2014 20:26 Destiny wrote: In a very short-sighted, selfish way, you have no obligation to help any part of any scene grow, ever.
Helping scene to grow and helping your tournament can be mutually exclusive. If they don't trust you for w/e reason, they might consider your tournament risky and prefer to avoid it completely. In that sense, they are helping the scene to grow (or not to shrink if you want).
On August 12 2014 20:26 Destiny wrote: In a very short-sighted, selfish way, you have no obligation to help any part of any scene grow, ever.
Helping scene to grow and helping your tournament can be mutually exclusive. If they don't trust you for w/e reason, they might consider your tournament risky and prefer to avoid it completely. In that sense, they are helping the scene to grow (or not to shrink if you want).
You just seem not to accept their decision.
He accepts the decision because there's nothing he can do. He doesn't accept the reason nor the person making the choice.
But all teams involved with KeSPA are aware of what they were getting into when signing with KeSPA.
Remember when a lot of people were shitting on Destiny for being a jerk? This "jerk" was able to organize and host one of the most successful tournaments this year. Congratulations, Destiny. Keep going, you're doing great work!
this tournament was run well, congratulations for that.
As for the KeSPA issue, I think it is more of a cultural issue. I can understand their underlying logic and the doubts they had. Hopefully they can be included in the next event.
Very interesting to see the finances and logistics of all this, I'm very glad (and grateful) Destiny decided to share it.
As for the Kespa email thing. Well, we've seen this all before between event organisers and teams. The whole Jessica Vs Slayers thing and Take Vs Axiom. Whenever something like that is posted publicly it rarely ends well. For the sake of professionalism and maintaining relationships I never think it's a good idea to post that kind of stuff in such a public and volatile domain (this is the internet, not exactly the most level-headed of people roam here).
Still, I guess it has opening a lot of peoples eyes to how the 'system' works in this media, and the resulting fanfair (not quite a shitstorm yet) has been entertaining.
On August 12 2014 21:31 virpi wrote: Remember when a lot of people were shitting on Destiny for being a jerk? This "jerk" was able to organize and host one of the most successful tournaments this year. Congratulations, Destiny. Keep going, you're doing great work!
Even he admitted, that Destiny 2014 organized the tournament, not Destiny 2011/2012, whom people were calling a jerk. Rightfully so, btw.
On August 12 2014 21:31 virpi wrote: Remember when a lot of people were shitting on Destiny for being a jerk? This "jerk" was able to organize and host one of the most successful tournaments this year. Congratulations, Destiny. Keep going, you're doing great work!
Even he admitted, that Destiny 2014 organized the tournament, not Destiny 2011/2012, whom people were calling a jerk. Rightfully so, btw.
He still is a jerk. Have you watched him stream ladder games lately? Every single loss ends with BM. People seem to like it, though.
On the other hand, I like his offensive jokes, lizard laughter and whatnot, and I feel like in this tournament Destiny wasn't as entertaining as he was during HSC. Maybe it was the stress, lack of sleep, the fact that it was a Skype call, or maybe he was trying to be "professional". I still really enjoyed the tournament, and hope that there's a Destiny II.
On August 12 2014 21:31 virpi wrote: Remember when a lot of people were shitting on Destiny for being a jerk? This "jerk" was able to organize and host one of the most successful tournaments this year. Congratulations, Destiny. Keep going, you're doing great work!
Even he admitted, that Destiny 2014 organized the tournament, not Destiny 2011/2012, whom people were calling a jerk. Rightfully so, btw.
He still is a jerk. Have you watched him stream ladder games lately? Every single loss ends with BM. People seem to like it, though.
On the other hand, I like his offensive jokes, lizard laughter and whatnot, and I feel like in this tournament Destiny wasn't as entertaining as he was during HSC. Maybe it was the stress, lack of sleep, the fact that it was a Skype call, or maybe he was trying to be "professional". I still really enjoyed the tournament, and hope that there's a Destiny II.
Doesn't matter if he is being a jerk or not, the point is that Destiny have been more beneficial than 90% of the "esport personalities"* out there.
On August 12 2014 20:26 Destiny wrote: I hope there's some point where your organization sees a benefit in providing players for my tournaments, assuming these arguments haven't destroyed the possibility.
So does this indicate Destiny will side with the 54% from his poll?
On the kespa thing: I think Destinys response (by posting it publicly) wasnt professional and maybe not what Kespa expected. I still hope theyre not mad about it. Destiny just started his tournament organizing career and has had great success with his first steps. He isnt someone that has done it for years (I assume). So I feel like he has a view thats closer to the viewer's perception. This seems to be very heplful for an organizer in some respects though. I hope that sooner or later, kespa players will be allowed to play.
what Id find to be especially fun: ask Kespa to send one player thats basically unknown to the foreign scene and give him a breakout chance. I would LOVE to watch this happen
I'm surprise you didn't ask TB how to get those Kespa players in. I remember watching 1 of chanmanv show not long before Destiny I, where all the other guys also mentioned how come TB can get those players in, and you can't.
But if I remember correctly you just brush it off. I thought you'd have asked TB later after the show how to get Kespa players involved, knowing Kespa is known for being strict with their players.
Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
Watched a bit of the tourney, it was a great time and fun to watch.
As far as KeSPA, I think they're justified. When you're home to the most established players in the world, who are increasingly becoming the only relevant players, you don't just send them to every "grassroots" tournament. It sucks for you and for us, but KeSPA is looking to make sure that you're a legit tournament who isn't going to bring any negativity to their organization or fuck with their players. You failed on the first one, and I hope Chud isn't going to be so uptight about this whole situation that we never do see their players participating.
It's a bit like the Smash scene though. Hold a couple "small" tournaments and prove that you're legit, and after putting in some work you then hold your "big" tournament and invite the big names. The big names will look and see that you're legit, that you don't squander or "lose" funds (which has happened in that scene, unfortunately) and if your prize is worth their time, they will come.
On August 13 2014 00:36 KoRStarvid wrote: Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
I'm not completely sure about KeSPa being in trouble - their teams own really hard in LoL. So while some may feel their SC2 policy should adapt to the current status quo of the scene at the end their players represent the same brands and sponsors as their extremely in demand LoL teams. Imagine Manchester United having another team in a less popular team sport, say field hockey. Now should Manchester United accept playing in a field hockey start up tournament just because financially field hockey is in a worse state than football?
Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
I just find it kind if funny that Kespa wants some sort of benefit in exchange for allowing their players to play in a simple online tournament. Not saying they want to paid money, but they want something in return. It's not a big deal, just an online tourney for the benefit of your players, you don't need to demand a benefit in exchange.
On August 12 2014 01:01 plgElwood wrote: I am not decided on the KeSpA Thing. Everytime they should interact with another Organization they act arrogant
While I'll agree that KeSPA can make some infuriating decisions, it's completely understandable why they reacted in the way that they did for this tournament. This is the first time that this tournament has been run and with no sponsors or anything to validate the integrity of the tournament, who's to say that Destiny wouldn't just run away with all the money?
With that being said you've validated the tournament by successfully running it this time and it will only hurt the KeSPA players themselves if you don't allow them in next time you run this tournament. I do agree with what someone else said in that just a few KeSPA players would be fine, don't overrun the tournament with them.
On August 13 2014 00:36 KoRStarvid wrote: Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
I'm not completely sure about KeSPa being in trouble - their teams own really hard in LoL. So while some may feel their SC2 policy should adapt to the current status quo of the scene at the end their players represent the same brands and sponsors as their extremely in demand LoL teams. Imagine Manchester United having another team in a less popular team sport, say field hockey. Now should Manchester United accept playing in a field hockey start up tournament just because financially field hockey is in a worse state than football?
But that's exactly what happens with clubs that have multiple sections, no?
As an example, let's look at Legia Warszawa. They have sections in ~20 sports, and in some of them they have multiple teams. You can't expect all of those teams to participate only in the most prestigious tournaments.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Money mongering rogue players? How does that description make any bit of sense lol. It's just a simple online tournament bro. Investor decks don't need to enter into the discussion, just let your players sit at their desk And play for a little.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Money mongering rogue players? How does that description make any bit of sense lol. It's just a simple online tournament bro. Investor decks don't need to enter into the discussion, just let your players sit at their desk And play for a little.
Bleh, I think all those blindly going against KeSPA here haven't had significant corporate experience to even understand well established concepts like risk mitigation, trade offs, asset management, etc. that go into KeSPA's decision making and are thinking on a very "mom and pop" business level. KeSPA tends to be on the conservative side but it is very understandable.
On August 13 2014 00:36 KoRStarvid wrote: Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
I'm not completely sure about KeSPa being in trouble - their teams own really hard in LoL. So while some may feel their SC2 policy should adapt to the current status quo of the scene at the end their players represent the same brands and sponsors as their extremely in demand LoL teams. Imagine Manchester United having another team in a less popular team sport, say field hockey. Now should Manchester United accept playing in a field hockey start up tournament just because financially field hockey is in a worse state than football?
But that's exactly what happens with clubs that have multiple sections, no?
You mean taking chances? Like Barcelonas basketball team participating in smaller tournaments for the buck? I dont think this is exactly what happens with clubs that have multiple sections - those try to legitimize and improve competition in another sport by using their very recognisible brand and probably using their huge fanbase to market their teams in a new sport. Many die hard FC Barcelona fans go to the games of their basketball team to support them although originally those fans may not have a big interest in basketball.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
so Destiny's 4000$ 16 players invitational shouldn't get anything beside rogue players. But Pughy's 1000$ 8 players invitational gets Cure, Solar and Armani from KeSPA!! Let's wait for the Pughy's view ratings, to see who was cocky.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Money mongering rogue players? How does that description make any bit of sense lol. It's just a simple online tournament bro. Investor decks don't need to enter into the discussion, just let your players sit at their desk And play for a little.
Bleh, I think all those blindly going against KeSPA here haven't had significant corporate experience to even understand well established concepts like risk mitigation, trade offs, asset management, etc. that go into KeSPA's decision making and are thinking on a very "mom and pop" business level. KeSPA tends to be on the conservative side but it is very understandable.
Again it's just a simple online tournament. Those business concepts don't need to enter into the discussion. The tournament is not going to have a business impact on Kespa, it's just for a couple players to sit at their desk and play.
On August 13 2014 00:36 KoRStarvid wrote: Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
I'm not completely sure about KeSPa being in trouble - their teams own really hard in LoL. So while some may feel their SC2 policy should adapt to the current status quo of the scene at the end their players represent the same brands and sponsors as their extremely in demand LoL teams. Imagine Manchester United having another team in a less popular team sport, say field hockey. Now should Manchester United accept playing in a field hockey start up tournament just because financially field hockey is in a worse state than football?
But that's exactly what happens with clubs that have multiple sections, no?
You mean taking chances? Like Barcelonas basketball team participating in smaller tournaments for the buck? I dont think this is exactly what happens with clubs that have multiple sections - those try to legitimize and improve competition in another sport by using their very recognisible brand and probably using their huge fanbase to market their teams in a new sport. Many die hard FC Barcelona fans go to the games of their basketball team to support them although originally those fans may not have a big interest in basketball.
And I am pretty sure this is exactly what also happens with SC2 in Korea right now
But again, KeSPA is not about protecting player interests, first, it is about protecting sponsorship interests first.
Cmon, destiny, use more your brain little bit more u did only half the job
A bustling foreigner scene is as good for Korea as a bustling Korean scene is as good for everyone in the West, surely everyone here believes that, right?
GO GO destiny saves SC2, saves esports XD. And seriously, no. korean scene already moved to others games. West scene...there're already enought kor players
the real issue is that we're still waiting for foreigner structures to get organize.... Even if for kespa players, it can be a good opportunity to earn ez money it shouldnt not be the same in the long terme ( i hope :p ). Also, i wonder how much % of them will agree to participate in such events because i imagine you need to prepare a lot when your opponent is maru ^^
TB got kespa with Sandisk, dragon invitational 1,2,3,4 are full with skilled korean players.
WHAT WE NEED IS WHAT DESTINY DID !!!!!
local tournaments hosting/hosted by local casters/players are the solution and to grow events where pple can easly related to must be a priority. It will also help sponsoship to more diversify by bringing local sponsors. ( ogaming drama dailymotion vs twitch blablabla for france is a really really closed example local economy fr vs blizzard economy but the're the same type of sponsor, isp/soft-hardware, our current sponsorship base)
Now that WCS is settled, the web of sc2 need to grow and expand her ends so it can spread more depply in the population and be considered as a "normal" event like soccer and when everything seems normal we will strat the contamiition to increased the size of the swarm in order to defeat Amon.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
so Destiny's 4000$ 16 players invitational shouldn't get anything beside rogue players. But Pughy's 1000$ 8 players invitational gets Cure, Solar and Armani from KeSPA!! Let's wait for the Pughy's view ratings, to see who was cocky.
Ok cool, another tourney allegedly with KeSPA players. 3 possibilities:
1. Either KeSPA does not know about this, players risk penalties or 2. Pughy has leverage through relationships with players (?) 3. Pughy actually negotiated this properly with KeSPA
I don't see any official statements from parties involved, so yeah you're right let's see how this unfolds
On August 13 2014 00:36 KoRStarvid wrote: Wow, Kespa's representative seems to be completely in denial. Spending zero resources and taking on zero risk for potential exposure for their players, teams, sponsors and brand, all while their scene is shrinking at an alarming rate would seem like a no-brainer. And their recommendation is that Destiny should try to build business relations with them, as if inviting Kespa-players wasn't a business invitation. I guess it has to do a lot with Korean culture(?), but the SC2-scene is international and they desperately need to adapt to that if they wish their SC2 scene to survive. No wonder they're having problems!
I was superbly satisfied with the tournament, and I will most likely fund a larger amount next time. Destiny has always been a good guy, and it's nice to see the community finally catching on to that. I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more sustainable tournaments (meaning the organizer and all involved parties actually making money from their efforts) in the future as a result of the success of this tournament. People shaming Destiny for making a profit need to grow up and realize that not only is profit a requirement for longevity, but it actually also increases the quality of whatever you're producing. People who work for free or for weak incentives do poor work.
I'm not completely sure about KeSPa being in trouble - their teams own really hard in LoL. So while some may feel their SC2 policy should adapt to the current status quo of the scene at the end their players represent the same brands and sponsors as their extremely in demand LoL teams. Imagine Manchester United having another team in a less popular team sport, say field hockey. Now should Manchester United accept playing in a field hockey start up tournament just because financially field hockey is in a worse state than football?
I agree completely that the organisation Kespa as a whole is probably just fine! It is only their SC2 section that needs to update their policies as far as I'm aware, and it is only that which I recommend.
However, if Man United has a field hockey division, and there is potential value in having a field hockey division (monetary or goodwill), then if the opportunity arises to get some additional brand and sponsor exposure for that division essentially for free, then they should accept, not because field hockey is in a worse state than soccer, but because field hockey (in this analog) runs the risk of dying if they don't. If Kespa wants to run SC2 on charity resources overflowing from LoL, then they can probably do that, but it seems utterly stupid to not take an opportunity to strengthen the SC2 division on its own merits. What do they imagine that they can lose by not doing that?
EDIT: Just to clarify: By having a living scene, I mean that there is actual competetion going on with an actual audience watching. I truly believe that Kespa can afford running proleague off of resources coming from LoL and other things that they do, but I highly doubt that they will have enough of an audience watching to justify it if they don't update their model.
Is it just me? or do you guys think every tournament that's not ran by a huge (successful) corporation should be doing this? In other words, every fan/individual ran tournament.
I'll tell you what, I had a hell of a fun time watching and would gladly shell out for the next one (I didn't even know this was coming so couldn't contribute originally). I especially loved the guest casters and the fact that commentary covered any and everything with really no holds barred, did they volunteer their time?
Thanks for the transparency and the dedication to the SC2 community!
Surprising how many people here sympathize with KeSPA over this situation. While I can see that people saying Destiny wasn't fully discreet are correct, ultimately I'm inclined to agree with him that even if KeSPA is doing fine in other games, SC2 is struggling. Maybe they don't care about having SC2 continue due to their success in other games, but it sucks for those who do care about SC2.
On August 13 2014 01:42 JimSocks wrote: there's plenty of famous koreans in the eu & na scene. who cares if he can't get kespa. let them save their own scene, we save ours.
I'm sure that there are a ton of people who would love to see people like Flash, Maru, Effort, Rain etc. in smaller tournaments such as this. I know that I would!
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Here's a paragraph from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about.
You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
From my own personal experience with Asian businesses. Most suck at dealing with English speakers. Ppl who speak fluent English are at the bottom. ppl who are hired to make the big decisions have no clue. look at all those kpop songs with broken English. They can't hire one guy to proofread? Half those singers are Korean American and they can't speak up and say we're singing crap English? ppl in charge don't know shit unless it lines their own pockets.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Here's a paragraph from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about.
"investor deck"
Do you even know what this is?
I would have thought that the suggestion to personally fly out from the U.S. to Korea for a extremely risky meeting for a $4,000 online tournament was the better indicator of not knowing what one is talking about; a cursory glance at The Google indicates that current plane tickets to Seoul are about $2,000, with hotels being around $150 a night. This doesn't even include the lost revenue if the person in question is making money via streaming etc.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
Here's a paragraph from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about.
"investor deck"
Do you even know what this is?
I would have thought that the suggestion to personally fly out from the U.S. to Korea for a extremely risky meeting for a $4,000 online tournament was the better indicator of not knowing what one is talking about; a cursory glance at The Google indicates that current plane tickets to Seoul are about $2,000, with hotels being around $150 a night. This doesn't even include the lost revenue if the person in question is making money via streaming etc.
That was self explanatory. Highlighting something so astonishingly dumb didn't seem necessary, it spoke for itself.
I really fail to understand this community at times....We complain about the scene shrinking and all and why won't people do anything to save SC2? Or thinks someone isn't being transparent it's "You're wrong and you're evil"
Yet when someone actually not only puts the hard work In and actually a pretty big success of the tournament, pulling numbers a lot of people only dream of and makes just a little money on the side, or is open and transparent about their choices it's.....yep "You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why outsiders say SC2 is a dead game...
On August 13 2014 03:53 showstealer1829 wrote: I really fail to understand this community at times....We complain about the scene shrinking and all and why won't people do anything to save SC2? Or thinks someone isn't being transparent it's "You're wrong and you're evil"
Yet when someone actually not only puts the hard work In and actually a pretty big success of the tournament, pulling numbers a lot of people only dream of and makes just a little money on the side, or is open and transparent about their choices it's.....yep "You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why outsiders say SC2 is a dead game...
I just leave it there in my head. People just complain about everything. People who would not be caught dead helping the scene will still go out and complain about one thing or another and say "you should have flown to kespa" out of sheer ignorance or something.
I wonder Destiny wholeheartedly expected this kind of thing to happen. He seems like he has a better grasp of the scene than a lot of people so for him to do this tournament, it feels like there might be something else to it.
Really enjoyed your tournament, great casting and games. I laughed many times. Really hope you make this a regular thing Destiny. Also, it makes me happy to see Huk getting so far in tournaments as of late.
Hopefully there won't be as much controversy going forward. I understand the statements from both sides and why people feel the way they do, but there is no reason to point fingers and blame a party for something going on here. Obviously Destiny I was successful without KeSPA players, and since KeSPA was quick to deny access to their players, why does Destiny need to even try to get them again? Would the inclusion of certain KeSPA pros really make a difference (that is hard to gauge)?
It seems that Kespa's player association is a bit outdated with some of it's policies, but tournaments like this should first test the waters with those outside of KR so Destiny's "brand" tournament-wise can grow and relationships with KeSPA can be developed without any feeling of rushing or bandwagoning.
Kespa acting like shitheads, shocker. I understand they took the official statement of "protecting their brand", but was there *any* risk to the business by having players enter a tournament even if it fell on its face? No, not really.
Great tourney, loved the community vibe and caster rotation.
Still laughing at that Kimb3r clown or anyone else who thinks $1800 is even close to fair pay to go through *that much work*. Destiny put this tournament on to be involved in the community and for his love of the game, not because there was any financial incentive.
To be quite honest - and nothing personal to Destiny, I enjoyed your tournament from what I saw - Why would Kespa ever in a million years want their players to be in any way associated with a guy that has the public history that Destiny does? Just something to think about. Its cool hes apparently a new person now or something but yeah, dont shit where you sleep.
Does anyone know what music Destiny was playing during the in-between breaks ? He has the same taste in music as I do, but I didn't know some of the artists he was playing. Was it his last.fm account?
On August 13 2014 05:45 johnbongham wrote: To be quite honest - and nothing personal to Destiny, I enjoyed your tournament from what I saw - Why would Kespa ever in a million years want their players to be in any way associated with a guy that has the public history that Destiny does? Just something to think about. Its cool hes apparently a new person now or something but yeah, dont shit where you sleep.
Because they would want to look out for their players to gain more money and more exposure.
W/o foreign supports, SC2 scene would have been dead long time ago. They NEED foreign viewers, not the other way around.
On August 13 2014 05:45 johnbongham wrote: To be quite honest - and nothing personal to Destiny, I enjoyed your tournament from what I saw - Why would Kespa ever in a million years want their players to be in any way associated with a guy that has the public history that Destiny does? Just something to think about. Its cool hes apparently a new person now or something but yeah, dont shit where you sleep.
Because they would want to look out for their players to gain more money and more exposure.
W/o foreign supports, SC2 scene would have been dead long time ago. They NEED foreign viewers, not the other way around.
Actually no they really don't. What they need is their Korean KeSPA sponsors to get value for money. That's actually all they need to stay afloat. What use are foreign viewers to Jin Air when Jin Air is a domestic Korean carrier? None at all.
There are certainly some teams that need foreign viewers but they are not the 5 KeSPA teams. The recently adopted Proleague ex-eSF teams like IM/MVP/Prime/Startale, they need foreign viewers. Axiom needs foreign viewers, foreign teams need foreign viewers. KeSPA does not.
On August 13 2014 05:45 johnbongham wrote: To be quite honest - and nothing personal to Destiny, I enjoyed your tournament from what I saw - Why would Kespa ever in a million years want their players to be in any way associated with a guy that has the public history that Destiny does? Just something to think about. Its cool hes apparently a new person now or something but yeah, dont shit where you sleep.
Kespa players have played in the dragon invitationals and dragon doesn't exactly have a sterling history either.
On August 13 2014 03:53 showstealer1829 wrote: I really fail to understand this community at times....We complain about the scene shrinking and all and why won't people do anything to save SC2? Or thinks someone isn't being transparent it's "You're wrong and you're evil"
Yet when someone actually not only puts the hard work In and actually a pretty big success of the tournament, pulling numbers a lot of people only dream of and makes just a little money on the side, or is open and transparent about their choices it's.....yep "You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why outsiders say SC2 is a dead game...
This community is actually quite easy to understand if you just glance at the BW section a bit. A lot of the people complaining about SC2 dying are actually just saying "SC2 needs to die faster so we can have BW back"...or just have some ongoing grudge against any game that killed their BW and want to be angry.
Once you learn to tune those people out TL.net becomes a lot more tolerable.
On August 13 2014 05:45 johnbongham wrote: To be quite honest - and nothing personal to Destiny, I enjoyed your tournament from what I saw - Why would Kespa ever in a million years want their players to be in any way associated with a guy that has the public history that Destiny does? Just something to think about. Its cool hes apparently a new person now or something but yeah, dont shit where you sleep.
Kespa players have played in the dragon invitationals and dragon doesn't exactly have a sterling history either.
comparing dragon to destiny is apples and oranges. dragon probably knows most of the players in his tournament personally.
On August 13 2014 05:49 n0ah wrote: Does anyone know what music Destiny was playing during the in-between breaks ? He has the same taste in music as I do, but I didn't know some of the artists he was playing. Was it his last.fm account?
There were formerly random compositions he came up with on the piano that his musically-gifted subscribers would turn into actual music.
First: This is a grunch post. I'm not going to read all the comments to date due to lack of time and care. If the below has been brought up already and/or been resolved, feel free to ignore.
Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture.
Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul .
Criticisms:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
Takehome
For transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours.
It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something.
The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!!
I just want to thank destiny for this very informative thread and Chuddinater for his reasoning.
@all you guy who think Kespas actions where not good for the players, think about it: They can say they act in a way to give their sponsors the exposer they want. (the sponsors don't care about foreign exposer at all!) So they don't send their players to meaningless tournaments (sry destiny but exposer in your tournament had no value for any of the Kespa sponsors). And know think about it: as a sponsor would you sponsor a organization, which acts according to our interests, or a organization, which acts according to third party interests (like players)? Think you would take the first one. So if Kespa acts as they did they please the sponsors and so maintain functionality which is good for the players as they will get paid :D [please sponsors in the sense of: "we will not do it as it is not beneficial for our sponsors".]
PS: destiny don't post e-mails... it may be not a big deal in the US, but depending on where you are this could even punished by law... and it is really disrespectful in some cultures (don't know how it is for Korean people but I would not do businesses which anybody who would leak my e-mails).
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
On August 13 2014 01:18 orvinreyes wrote: Ok, had mad respect at first, but at this rate it just seems like Destiny is being all cocky and not knowing his place in the industry as an indie startup. Unless you have a very attractive investor deck and capture some great sponsors, all you will get are rogue players like MC, Hyun, and other unsigned money-mongering Koreans to play for you. The only alternative is if you have great relations with KeSPA to begin with, which you obviously don't have. You could have personally flown to KeSPA HQ (assume the travel costs in good faith) and presented/negotiated your piece to management, but instead you decide to carelessly lash it out online.
Good luck I guess.
so Destiny's 4000$ 16 players invitational shouldn't get anything beside rogue players. But Pughy's 1000$ 8 players invitational gets Cure, Solar and Armani from KeSPA!! Let's wait for the Pughy's view ratings, to see who was cocky.
Ok cool, another tourney allegedly with KeSPA players. 3 possibilities:
1. Either KeSPA does not know about this, players risk penalties or 2. Pughy has leverage through relationships with players (?) 3. Pughy actually negotiated this properly with KeSPA
I don't see any official statements from parties involved, so yeah you're right let's see how this unfolds
Pughy's tournament says its Korean focused, and has Korean sponsor...so this might be the difference?
You obviously put in a ton of effort into this event, this kind of effort shouldn't be all free. If you pocket some of the proceed as your own expense/salary, I wouldn't object at all.
Will probably participate the crowdfunding next time.
Should factor in overhead costs to the transparency report - might be a little creepy, though, because it delves into dual use situation. If you didn't have a studio (your apartment), equipment (computer, headset, etc), electricity, or an internet connection - that would make the tournament difficult to run. There's a lot more that we (viewers) generally don't take into account.
And I assure you, if the IRS ever wanted to get nit picking, they would.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: First: This is a grunch post. I'm not going to read all the comments to date due to lack of time and care. If the below has been brought up already and/or been resolved, feel free to ignore.
Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture.
Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul .
Criticisms:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
Takehome
For transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours.
It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something.
The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!!
Didn't crunch the numbers myself but I noticed the same thing ( I do a lot of work with charities so the creative accounting is something I am reasonably familiar with).
I didn't watch the tourny myself, but I like the entire concept. I really like how transparent you are trying to be, and I suspect people are right when they suggest there are many who won't like it.
I like this persons suggestion of breaking down hourly work. It could serve a lot of positive purposes. It could serve to document your exploits for yours and others later enjoyment. It could serve as a template for yourself and others regarding the process. It could also work as a personal checklist to help make sure you don't miss the little things you want to get done also, along with what he suggests.
Personally it's mostly a percentages thing for me. Where did the revenue come from/where did the revenue go. So long as you don't find yourself rewarding yourself more than the players, I think you are fine. It's not that you wouldn't deserve it, it's just that I think the community wan't to see the money go to the players. As with any professional (unique talent) environment (where the numbers are remotely available), people like to see the talent pulling in the lions share of the revenue. Obviously it's not a 1:1 comparison but it starts to seem exploitative if too much revenue goes towards 'management' and not enough to the talent.
People like to be part of things they feel are 'good'. By staying transparent and keeping your take-home comparatively modest you help uphold the image that you have good intentions (making money is a part of that). It's that image (along with quality content delivered well) that will grow your success. People will flock to be a part of something they perceive as positive in their community, you will see your offers for volunteers and support come out of the woodwork (from qualified people/sponsors too).
I just read the OP and the last page or so and wanted to offer my 2 cents and thank you for your work. But after thinking about it more I am going to read more about what you did and am definitely going to tune in for the next one.
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. You can't simply expect KeSPA to happily send their players to your first event and then be too butthurt so as to let your pride get in the way of further discussions next time around at the expense of your tournament.
On August 13 2014 02:18 Insane wrote: Surprising how many people here sympathize with KeSPA over this situation. While I can see that people saying Destiny wasn't fully discreet are correct, ultimately I'm inclined to agree with him that even if KeSPA is doing fine in other games, SC2 is struggling. Maybe they don't care about having SC2 continue due to their success in other games, but it sucks for those who do care about SC2.
Their success doesn't rest upon one game and it's insignificant in the bigger picture. To the hosts okay, but in reality its small beans. I don't even see the debate in this. ._.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games.
I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money).
But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: First: This is a grunch post. I'm not going to read all the comments to date due to lack of time and care. If the below has been brought up already and/or been resolved, feel free to ignore.
Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture.
Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul .
Criticisms:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
Takehome
For transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours.
It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something.
The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!!
agree with this post entirely, beautifully written.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games.
I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money).
But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
Did you miss the part where the $1800 was independent of the donated money?
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
Thank you for putting off this tournament Steven. I enjoyed every single day (and somehow missed every game that the spammer/disconnecter/asshole created issues) and I am hopeful that the next tournament, if you still plan on having it, will be even greater
I find it interesting how people actively disagree with the idea that an organizer should get paid for doing his job. I think the method of crowdfunding carries with it this idea of altruistic purpose; that if you reach out to people for help funding something, you're automatically doing it free of personal motive like some sort of eSports Jesus.
I don't want to break any bubbles, but that idea is bullshit. While the motive might be pure, the act of soliciting funds for the purpose of organizing something doesn't turn someone into a demigod... Even if you're dealing with a crowdfunded tournament, you still need to fucking eat. Doing something with money, no matter where that money comes from, is a job that takes hours out of your workday, and if you're doing that work, you deserve compensation. Organizing nice things for the community does not exempt one from basic costs of living. Besides, and I'm trying not to be inflammatory here, I think a large part of the community has a juvenile and sheltered idea of how much living an independent life AND doing shit for the community actually costs.
If Destiny worked X hours to organize this stuff, then Destiny deserves to reap at the very least a minimal profit for it... Because his time as an entertainer and organizer is valuable. It's easy to elevate the players - for fuck's sake, there's a semi-serious discussion in this thread about how FUCKING KeSPA SHOULD BE PAID TO SEND PLAYERS - but it's important to remember that everyone who puts hours into eSports are taking hours out of the time they have to feed themselves and their families.
Going into this tournament, I never thought I'd find myself defending Destiny at the end of it, because really, my experiences with 2012 Destiny had soured my image of him by a large amount. I have to say, however, that the amount of transparency and professionalism in regards to organization has won me over, and I feel compelled to voice my support for 2014 Destiny in this regard.
Seriously, the guy spent a large amount of time making this stuff happen. Tournaments do not fucking run themselves, no matter how much money they get. Should he not - like the casters and (some of, by virtue of the competitive system) the players - expect some sort of compensation?
But I think you (and Destiny) are denying a fair point, which is that money IS fungible and the way the accounting works can look misleading. If you read the OP as is, it looks like Destiny got sponsorship money and just pocketed the money, since the expenses had already been paid for through crowd-sourcing. That's probably not what the sponsors expected when they supported the tournament and almost certainly not what they want in the future.
I think it would have been more fair to include paying himself in the expenses and come out with a smaller amount of net profit, most of which will be reinvested in the next one. Or just come out and say he made a decent profit and is only reinvesting x% of it to the next one, cashing out the rest for himself.
The word "manipulative" is far too strong and B-rye88 used it twice, so I can see how it would offend. But I think there is validity to his point.
IMO Destiny is getting a bit unwound in his opinions about Kespa and would be recommended to just stop talking about them altogether at this point, just leaving it that he has a professional disagreement with the way they handled things and it has been voiced.
I think it´s because many people in the community are still very young and cannot imagine or appreciate the struggle of having to provide for yourself. To a person who has to pay their bills every month, the notion of working with no pay seems absolutely ridiculous. But I guess some people think it´s not work, because it´s some Starcraft and Starcraft is fun-time.
On August 13 2014 14:48 coverpunch wrote: But I think you (and Destiny) are denying a fair point, which is that money IS fungible and the way the accounting works can look misleading. If you read the OP as is, it looks like Destiny got sponsorship money and just pocketed the money, since the expenses had already been paid for through crowd-sourcing. That's probably not what the sponsors expected when they supported the tournament and almost certainly not what they want in the future.
Really?? Because if you've read through this thread you will see one of the sponsors stating that they were happy with where the money went and pretty much said he hopes to have the opportunity to sponsor Destiny II.....
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: <words>
I'm impressed by the civility of this comment, even if I'm a little bit disappointed that I didn't get to see a KeSPA representative throw an inflammatory fit this time on TL either.
About kespa: Other than the first reason: proleague final affects lots of factors, I don't see how any other arguments /inquiries were valid. It's a crowd funded tournament, they should be able to deduct this will at least have a reasonable number of viewership and interest, especially considering destiny is one of the top streamer in the sc2 scene and had been one for a very long period of time. That plus the great caster line ups and great thoughtful formats.
There were no sponsor conflicting with their own AFAIK
If kespa is concern about the growth of sc2, then this should be considered: It was not a situation as to who benefits more, it was a situation where both can benefit, all while the organizer is taking a considerable bigger risk.
Even if it ran terribly, what was there to lose for kespa players? I don't recall any situation where players are blamed for poor quality of tournament.
Maybe difficulty to arrange match times? Or dealing with lag? I honestly don't know, since we had quite a lot of great offline tournaments anyway. It just seems to me someone on kespa side is not doing their CBA correctly.
Not to mention how the email could have been phrased so much better. Instead of "we don't trust you, we gonna lose out in this, do you even have sponsor bro" general tone of message, it could had been far simpler "we would love to have more information before we make any call, what are your estimates for viewer numbers"
TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
[QUOTE]On August 13 2014 08:40 GreenHorizons wrote: [QUOTE]On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: By staying transparent and keeping your take-home comparatively modest you help uphold the image that you have good intentions (making money is a part of that). [/QUOTE]
So Nation Wars, made a tournament, watched by 1k live audience, and 20k online. They gathered 80k€ from ticket sales for attending 4 team matches live, and 85k€ more for hosting 6 days of online games, and 1 yet to come. Cash prize is 28k€... So let's say ticket sales covered the venue, then management/organizers pocketed 57k€ out of 85k€ for their hard work of 7 days of stream.That is 2/3 of the crowd funding money.... Not to forget Day9 who said he wasn't payed. Not to forget their sponsors who may or may not have been added to the crowd funding total. Do you really think that Destiny's share of 25% isn't modest? Do you think he will come a do a second tournament if you payed him with IHOP coupons?
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
I disagree, there was nothing disrespectful in the first e-mail. It was a pretty standard corporate response.
Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
If this was a comic book: there's an inner struggle between 2011-destiny and 2014-destiny, and though the latter is still in control, all this stress is going to unwind him and he will re-emerge as the dreaded 2011-destiny that caused drama & wanton destruction everywhere.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
But the thing is, this is not BW, just like you aren't 2011 Destiny. There are a lot of people in this thread who agrees with you, but also quite a few who agrees with KeSPA's way of handling your enquiry. I hope Destiny II becomes a success, and I hope that we'll get to see KeSPA players more in foreign tourneys, that's my last post in this thread I think. Good luck Destiny.
On August 13 2014 17:58 -Archangel- wrote: For a guy that wants to do crowdfunding in the future, you really should not talk to the "crowd" in such a way.
I'm not addressing "the crowd", though.
If someone honestly thinks my communications with KeSPA have been horribly disrespectful and that I'm completely in the wrong, I doubt they'd contribute in the future anyway, no?
I don't think I've said anything especially egregious in this thread towards any parties, regardless.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games.
I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money).
But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
Did you miss the part where the $1800 was independent of the donated money?
Did you miss the part where I said "after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money)." Without donations from the community there is no sponsorship money to be made. So perhaps once expenses have been paid the rest of the money could be put towards Destiny II so that the community saves money next time around, as it was entirely from donations that the tournament prizepool was funded.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
This analogy is so awful and fails on so many different points that I'm not even sure if it's being said with any degree of seriousness.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email,
Implying that Chud's orginal email was unprofessional...
this thread is the most entertaining one i read in a long time. I want to thank all the contributors who chipped in with their absolutely hilarious ideas about business, money and transparency. I also want to thank KespA for continuing to not get it. Last , but not least , thanks to TB and Destiny for somehow finding the motivation to actually try and argue with people you simply cannot argue with. Most people would have given up way sooner. <3
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE.
On August 13 2014 17:58 -Archangel- wrote: For a guy that wants to do crowdfunding in the future, you really should not talk to the "crowd" in such a way.
I'm not addressing "the crowd", though.
If someone honestly thinks my communications with KeSPA have been horribly disrespectful and that I'm completely in the wrong, I doubt they'd contribute in the future anyway, no?
I don't think I've said anything especially egregious in this thread towards any parties, regardless.
I dont know if you have ever been in any corporate environment before but you've done quite a lot of wrong and disrespectful things in this thread
- Publish private work email - Actively try to prove that the scene that they are managing is dying with fact, figure and whatnot - Deem potential (or should I say, desired?) partner as shortsighted, selfish, -insert ugly phrases- - Acts as if you & your new found online tournament represents the prospectus western scene and makes it like stubborn KeSPA vs promising western chances (when actually it's KeSPA turning down you & your new found online tournament, not IEM or DH or MLG)
Like many have pointed out, if these get to KeSPA with its original meaning & intention(which I doubt since Chud is a nice dude), you should probably consider this a lost cause
I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like.
Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish.
I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games.
I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money).
But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
Did you miss the part where the $1800 was independent of the donated money?
Did you miss the part where I said "after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money)." Without donations from the community there is no sponsorship money to be made. So perhaps once expenses have been paid the rest of the money could be put towards Destiny II so that the community saves money next time around, as it was entirely from donations that the tournament prizepool was funded.
That seems to take Destiny's efforts out of the equation though - certainly no argument about the community donations enabling the event but it wouldn't have happened without Destiny. Given the lack of a track record the sponsors were seemingly backing the Destiny brand while hoping for a successful event.
I expect we'll see a different model for Destiny II in regards to how Destiny approaches his payment. But if he reconsiders ads does that act as a disincentive to donations? or if it remains ad free how does Destiny go about setting a payment for himself within the donation framework? We've already seen lots of different opinions about the $1800 he earned. I get the sense he'd have to underpay himself (according to the effort involved to run this sort of event) to make that work.
If you are getting a quality event where the money is going where it was intended too (informed by transparency etc) then why a focus on saving community money for Destiny 2, 3, onward? If it's worth the money and things are above board people will continue to contribute, if not they won't.
On August 13 2014 17:58 -Archangel- wrote: For a guy that wants to do crowdfunding in the future, you really should not talk to the "crowd" in such a way.
I'm not addressing "the crowd", though.
If someone honestly thinks my communications with KeSPA have been horribly disrespectful and that I'm completely in the wrong, I doubt they'd contribute in the future anyway, no?
I don't think I've said anything especially egregious in this thread towards any parties, regardless.
I dont know if you have ever been in any corporate environment before but you've done quite a lot of wrong and disrespectful things in this thread
- Publish private work email - Actively try to prove that the scene that they are managing is dying with fact, figure and whatnot - Deem potential (or should I say, desired?) partner as shortsighted, selfish, -insert ugly phrases- - Acts as if you & your new found online tournament represents the prospectus western scene and makes it like stubborn KeSPA vs promising western chances (when actually it's KeSPA turning down you & your new found online tournament, not IEM or DH or MLG)
Like many have pointed out, if these get to KeSPA with its original meaning & intention(which I doubt since Chud is a nice dude), you should probably consider this a lost cause
If by "this" you mean arguing about any of this on here, then yeah, I agree.
Was fun discussions, guys. See you next tournament!
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: Are you morons ? v_v
It seems pretty clear that they are yes. Either that or middle/high schoolers who never worked a day in their life.
I haven't seen anything wrong in what Destiny said/did, on the contrary. He did everything he said he would do and more, with every necessary detail published to be completely transparent, he paid himself with whatever was left (which is a crappy amount for the work that had to be done), the tournament was great and the most enjoyable I've seen in quite some time, KeSPA is KeSPA, and there *still* has to be a pack of genetically predisposed whiners looking for something to bitch about...
Whatever... Great tournament, kudos to Destiny and the other casters, looking forward to the next one.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE.
Okay, suppose I granted you that KeSPA's model is wrong, and that they've mismanaged over a decade of e-sports, and that we should all be able to work together in a harmonious e-sports utopia. Which, while idealistic, would probably be awesome. What does it accomplish, whining and flaming publicly over a potential partner after just the first tournament? What is it supposed to accomplish? Does that help relations between Destiny's tournament and KeSPA? Is it leverage to make somebody in KeSPA want to fix something, because they're scared of being shut out of Destiny's tournaments in the future? Or is it just for attention?
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
You're pretty good at not referring to the argument but instead stepping on moral high ground via pushing your wife's (self-chosen!) fate to the focus of the discussion. Saying something "is completely untrue" is just as good as saying "it is completely true". So I guess we better agree to disagree before it comes down to plain insulting posts (as happened before between us)?
On August 13 2014 09:39 Beavo wrote: Wondering if you guys were Kespa, would you ever work with Destiny again after this?
Since they didn't work with him in the first place I dont really see that being too much of a problem.
Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"? Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O.
On August 13 2014 19:45 boxerfred wrote: Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"?
Or maybe you should take care of not writing 'professional' emails that could come back to bite you if they can be seen by more people than you thought. Which is pretty much a given for non-confidential conversations such as this.
If you have a conversation with a company, any company, in any domain, and this company serves you bullshit, by all means put it up on public forums for everyone to see. That's the best anti-bullshit solution.
Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O.
What counts is whatever Destiny wants to do next. KeSPA didn't stop the tournament from getting a much better viewership than expected. No reason to think this would be a major issue (or an issue at all) for the next one.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE.
Okay, suppose I granted you that KeSPA's model is wrong, and that they've mismanaged over a decade of e-sports, and that we should all be able to work together in a harmonious e-sports utopia. Which, while idealistic, would probably be awesome. What does it accomplish, whining and flaming publicly over a potential partner after just the first tournament? What is it supposed to accomplish? Does that help relations between Destiny's tournament and KeSPA? Is it leverage to make somebody in KeSPA want to fix something, because they're scared of being shut out of Destiny's tournaments in the future? Or is it just for attention?
I agree with you on that. Destiny could've handled this better. He should've expected the response he got and, from a comment of his in this tread, he actually did expect it. Anyway; Maybe pointing out "KeSPA's model is wrong" in threads like these with a KeSPA represent present will help change their policies. KeSPA already improved a lot the last couple of years imo
On August 13 2014 19:45 boxerfred wrote: Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"? Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O.
It depends on the content of the conversation. Since this is a case of "You shouldn't publish it, since everything is private" and not a case of "You absolutely mustn't publish it, since it's critical" it's not that big of a deal.
Possible interactions in the future: 1. I don't care about Destiny II and want to be a dick. When he asks "Please provide a NDA. Until then I won't talk to you" only then after the NDA is up (If he bothers) to tell him "Nope, we're not interested".
2. I don't care about Destiny II. When he asks "No; sorry we are not interested".
3. I care about Destiny II. I will ask the usual questions. We work together.
Basically - if I benefit from Destiny II I will talk to him. The end. Companies don't benefit from holding grudges, so it's either 2 or 3. Of course I will keep in mind that the mails were published so I will keep the fluff out and keep explanations to a minimum.
On August 13 2014 19:45 boxerfred wrote: Would you really work with someone who sets a private business conversation to the public because you declined his "offer"?
Or maybe you should take care of not writing 'professional' emails that could come back to bite you if they can be seen by more people than you thought. Which is pretty much a given for non-confidential conversations such as this.
If you have a conversation with a company, any company, in any domain, and this company serves you bullshit, by all means put it up on public forums for everyone to see. That's the best anti-bullshit solution.
Destiny kind of closed that door via publishing that emai IMO, but what counts is ofc not MO, but Kespa's O.
What counts is whatever Destiny wants to do next. KeSPA didn't stop the tournament from getting a much better viewership than expected. No reason to think this would be a major issue (or an issue at all) for the next one.
That is not the best anti-bullshit solution, that is the most efficient way of ensuring that those guys are never going to work with you again.
Also, Kespa didn't serve bullshit, they simply said that they do not think sending their players to Destiny's tournament has any use for them so they declined. If I'd send Chuddinater a PM saying "yo I can do an onlline tournament and your players would give me exposure" then I'm pretty sure he'd decline. If I'd put that to the public with the clear intention of showing how stupid I find that decision - well, I wouldn't hope for another meeting.
I'm not a destiny stream watcher nor fan. But im a fan of transparency and it is really interesting to look into all that in detail and without restricted areas!
Not many ppl have the balls to be transparent. Because you make urself vulnerable to alot of comments like in this thread.
So in my opinion the sometimes harshful criticism "deceiving to gain more money" (lol, makes sense..) is really giving every other future tournament or w/e organizer/management a reason to at all costs NOT be transparent. And thats a bit sad.
Stating an email of a kespar manager (i guess without his agreement) is a bit too much tho, because you cant justify it with transparency if its personal chat with someone.
Kespa is a business organization and if they have the might to decide in which tourneys their players will play, then they will do so. And of course they want to get something out of it, its their job and personal interest to get something of value out of "their" players for themselves. If the players would be better of alone they would be independent. But since they are not, they seem to gain enough profit. (what kind of i dont even need to know since they should be able to judge that themselves ). Deciding to have the better marketing strategy for another organization that u can only see from the outside seems a bit off.
Of course everyone wants to see kespa players in big tournaments. But (at the moment) let those big tournaments let do the negotiations instead i'd say. Since they should have more value to offer to those kespa guys.
I have to say i was disappointed tho in the recent failed proceedings in this regard (dno if it was redbull or some tourney was declined the kespa players).
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote: Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote: TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
I feel like in any other context it would be obvious why your reaction doesn't make sense. What if you had an idea for an app and collected money from people who wanted the app to be realized and also counted up 100 times as many people who would use the app once it was released but didn't pay you anything to get it off the ground. Then, wanting to deliver a better app, you walk into a Microsoft office and ask for some coders. Your argument after the fact is although these are trained coders with professional obligations there's no reason they can't earn a few bucks in their free time just sitting at a computer.
Microsoft, who independently built a software empire before the operating system your app runs on was conceived, politely says they don't see the benefit for them in the unsolicited proposal you sent but might still be open in the future. (Which by the way would be really cool if for instance you had a cool head and went back to them with the results of what a success your app had been and started a mutual relationship instead of... posting private correspondence online.) Then you flame them saying they need to save their dying company from being overtaken by Apple gaining market share and call them selfish for focusing on Windows 8 instead of having people work for your project.
Sigh, please not these kind of analogies.. Even if you're right; KeSPA shouldn't be like Microsoft (in your analogy). It should be up to the teams and/ or players to chose the tournaments they want to participate in. KeSPA should refrain to just advising on this matter, not actually DECIDE.
Okay, suppose I granted you that KeSPA's model is wrong, and that they've mismanaged over a decade of e-sports, and that we should all be able to work together in a harmonious e-sports utopia. Which, while idealistic, would probably be awesome. What does it accomplish, whining and flaming publicly over a potential partner after just the first tournament? What is it supposed to accomplish? Does that help relations between Destiny's tournament and KeSPA? Is it leverage to make somebody in KeSPA want to fix something, because they're scared of being shut out of Destiny's tournaments in the future? Or is it just for attention?
It's like trying to do business with a Chinese company and when they deny you, you cry out: "can't you see that communism is wrong?!". Perhaps, but it's rather dubious to say it only after the fact, maybe you should have thought about it beforehand. Similar with kespa, if you don't agree with the way they manage things ("should be up to the players not kespa") then don't invite them to begin with, don't go complaining about it after the fact.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
Please, it's not like producing tournaments is Destiny's livelihood. He is a streamer and personality and makes money in other ways, and this tournament benefited his reputation and future ability to generate income. I'm not saying he can't get a share of the money, especially for all the work he has done, but I think that since the money is donated to him by the community we can at least discuss whether "we" (didn't donate myself though) think the reimbursement is fair, and where we think the money should go to. If nothing else, it's valuable feedback for Destiny.
Also, I agree with what someone else said that keeping the sponsorship money is conceptually dubious, since I don't see 1. why Destiny should not be allowed to dip into the indiegogo funds for his reimbursement, and 2. why sponsorship money is categorically different from the fundraiser money so that the money needs separate destinations. It's at least worthwhile to discuss, I do think.
Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
"We" know what KeSPA is, we just not agree with some of their policies. Also; This was just an online tournament. There's no sending.
You guys are asses Destiny woked his ass off to make a nice Tournament.It was an sucess and now he is defending his actions here on the Forum.You guys should be more grateful for what he has done and HOPE that he still wants to do a second or a third one after all this.
Heard on stream at some point (might have been Unfiltered a couple of weeks ago) that it took approx. three weeks to get the tournament all set up. During that time there was - determining a schedule that works best for as many as possible - planning the format and contingencies - garnering interest from invited parties - gathering and recording relevant information from players, casters, artists, web dev, etc. - answering questions to relevant parties, keeping web dev in the loop
During the tournament he was responsible for 6 days of casting games
Post-event - paying everyone promptly - cutting up and publishing vods, making replays available - post-tournament wrap-up business such as this thread and the one on reddit detailing his thoughts on how things went
I'm sure there's even more shit, and let's just for the sake of the argument say that Destiny also paid himself 100 dollars per day of casting. That leaves him with 1200 for the three weeks prior and few days after and you're talking about 50-60 dollars per day to pull off what was arguably a rather well-executed event. Does that seem overboard? Is it really worth having a discussion about it being somehow unfair for the value received?
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I was a little surprised by the tone of your post, but after continuing to read through and seeing the vitriol ITT it's making more sense.
Your response to 'money is fungible'
I recognize your desire not to misuse community funds; crowd sourcing is a new idea, and somebody manipulating it to their own gain would be damaging not only to the starcraft community but the idea of crowd sourcing in general.
Here's the thing; any way you slice it, you've profited from it. Sponsors paid your take-home? Great. But crowd funding generated that advertising opportunity which you've profited from.
My math is not trying to be cute, it's trying to be objective. It's saying "you had revenues from two sources, and expenses, and then profit".
Again, I don't see the problem with this. I'm OK with you making money for your efforts; everybody has to eat and you have unique skills and contacts that you leveraged to bring this community some awesome content. If people have a problem with this, then the solution may simply be to let them have a problem with it. If it's that big of a deal, you're crowd-sourcing efforts may suffer, and you will have to revise; I think the more likely outcome is that, if you're up-front and open with it, people will give few shits and future tournaments will be successfully funded.
Re: My use of the word manipulative
I agree with you in this. My language was not meant to be accusatory, but that word is just that.
I stand by my first use of the word; I said at best incorrect, at worst manipulative, and I think it's clear that you should pretty quickly be given any benefit of doubt given your efforts. My second use was unnecessary, and I apologize. A better way to make my point would be to have said "I don't think this meets your goal and the communities desire for fair and transparent reporting".
My point w/r/t KESPA
My point isn't that you have to play their ball game. My point is that you need to be empathetic (not sympathetic, just empathetic) to their goals and desires if you want to have a business relationship with them.
Paying KESPA
I don't understand what the big deal would be about paying them a fee?
Take the human element out of it temporarily. Their players are their assets, just as your contacts efforts and skillset are your own; any organization needs to leverage it's assets to generate revenue so as to match expenditures and reach goals (regardless of profit, altruistic, and otherwise).
Would it be different if they requested free advertising for their sponsors or brand? This is no different.
On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
yes, but his priority would be giving invitations to the teams that helped him in the first edition. For example he wouldn't trade CMSorm, TeamLiquid or Acer's spots for some b-teamers from KeSPA. The business model is still unclear. So by not having players playing from Korea, allows NA-friendly broadcasting schedule with no competing streams GSL, KeSPA team league.... Furthermore, since the KeSPA guy implied that they don't care about visibility on foreign scene, that they can live without the peanuts of small tournaments... then why would anyone go out of his way to invite their players, when he can keep up good viewers without them?
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
On August 13 2014 21:14 Growiel wrote: Kespa is not your standard eSports entity, it's a branch of the governement, it has more power over their players than anybody else, including the players' teams.
On the matter at hand, Kespa has a history of sending players to tournament that ends up not paying afterwards, it is their job to make sure that doesn't happen again. If a Kespa allows a player to go to a tournament and the tournarment doesn't pay, the player WILL blame Kespa, it's their job to check those things, the player just has to focus on playing.
It's hard to understand because there is nothing of the sort outside of Korea.
Now that Destiny has ran his first tournament and everybody has been paid, Kespa will stop doubting and send players next time.
"We" know what KeSPA is, we just not agree with some of their policies. Also; This was just an online tournament. There's no sending.
Also: due to the crowdfunding, there was no doubt that the prize money was there. What more would you expect? A written letter of intent where Destiny promises to pay the players from the money he already raised?
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see how professional Chuddinator has been, and you can't see the positives of his interaction not only with Destiny, but with the Teamliquid community, you are not the sort of person whose lowered opinions matter at all. You have a bias and you have stuck to it despite all evidence being to the contrary. Destiny is not debating the professionalism of Chuddinator, he is debating the role of KeSPA in providing access to tournaments, as well as presenting his view of their obligations to the SC2 scene. In fact, the least professional action was for Destiny to share the email (not saying that anti-professional is bad, it's just that the act of sharing an email tends to inflame a situation). It is due to Chuddinator, particularly, that this hasn't inflamed the situation.
We have a KeSPA representative presenting fair, logical points of view on a western forum. Can you appreciate this? Were you around when many of KeSPA's more controversial decisions (in Brood War particularly) were not addressed by KeSPA at all? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been raised by following this thread.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see how professional Chuddinator has been, and you can't see the positives of his interaction not only with Destiny, but with the Teamliquid community, you are not the sort of person whose lowered opinions matter at all. You have a bias and you have stuck to it despite all evidence being to the contrary. Destiny is not debating the professionalism of Chuddinator, he is debating the role of KeSPA in providing access to tournaments, as well as presenting his view of their obligations to the SC2 scene. In fact, the least professional action was for Destiny to share the email (not saying that anti-professional is bad, it's just that the act of sharing an email tends to inflame a situation). It is due to Chuddinator, particularly, that this hasn't inflamed the situation.
We have a KeSPA representative presenting fair, logical points of view on a western forum. Can you appreciate this? Were you around when many of KeSPA's more controversial decisions (in Brood War particularly) were not addressed by KeSPA at all? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been raised by following this thread.
Not defending the guy you quoted, but the sad truth is that in the public, you are not judged by the sum of what you have done, but by the worst thing you have done in recent history.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
Community gave ~500$ extra that will go to the next tournament. Sponsors are not the Community, nor their money.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
Community gave ~500$ extra that will go to the next tournament. Sponsors are not the Community, nor their money.
Well, I probably misunderstood what this tournament was about.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
Community gave ~500$ extra that will go to the next tournament. Sponsors are not the Community, nor their money.
Well, I probably misunderstood what this tournament was about.
It was about running a tournament, helping NA scene and that's it. And it did what it promised : great tournament, good games, good players, good cast, and transparency.
On August 14 2014 01:16 metzninja wrote: We have a KeSPA representative presenting fair, logical points of view on a western forum. Can you appreciate this? Were you around when many of KeSPA's more controversial decisions (in Brood War particularly) were not addressed by KeSPA at all? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been raised by following this thread.
We have Destiny, the sole representative of NeSPA, presenting a fair logical pov detailing why he probably won't bother with getting KeSPA players. That contrary to KeSPA, he is working hard to see a revived SC2 scene, primarily in NA. That he probably can rely on NA and perhaps EU for sponsors and financial support, so he will address that scene first. That the hussle and amount of shoes shinning needed to get 2 b teamers from KeSPA isn't worth the extra 10k(?) he could or could not get from that. That he should focus on getting better condition of play to the top Koreans that would like to participate. Can't you appreciate this? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
On August 12 2014 00:37 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the transparency is really nice. I wonder why anyone thinks that $1,800 is too much for the amount of work Destiny put in. He deserved it.
I didn't personally contribute to this one but I probably will for the next one.
Not the biggest Destiny fan, but I did watch the tournament. Between the obvious hours of prep work, composing emails (like the one we are reading now), coordinating with the players and casters, securing sponsors, and six days of casting -I think $1,800 probably comes in at around $4/hr, So, yes, I think if anything he is being very conservative and/or low with his profit from this event. I also like the transparency.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
He kept the money he received from the sponsors he picked up. Pretty sure he stated from the beginning that he would use all the money from the indigogo for Destiny I, and whatever was left would go towards Destiny II while what he makes from sponsors and ad revenue he would keep.
considering the viewership, he failed the big enough "established fan base". But I guess in KeSPA's math, 2k viewers is better than 20k.
Basically, we just confirmed. KeSPA b-teamers are damaging for viewership numbers. KeSPA should be asked to pay a fee before being allowed to send it's players to foreign tournament.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see how professional Chuddinator has been, and you can't see the positives of his interaction not only with Destiny, but with the Teamliquid community, you are not the sort of person whose lowered opinions matter at all.
I don't see the positives of his interaction with Destiny. When you get a college rejection letter, it reads something like, "We are sorry but there were other candidates who better fit our admissions criteria, so we are not able to offer you admission at this time," not "To be frank, what value would you add to our campus? You have a 2.5 GPA." When you get a job rejection letter, you either do not hear anything back at all, or you get something like "Sorry but you are not a fit for this position at this time," not "To be frank, what value would you add to our company? Your experience in eSports is poor, and we are not interested." One approach keeps bridges open; the other burns them. Do you really think Destiny would have posted Chud's email response if it had been in the same tone as the former approaches? And if he did, do you think people would be disparaging Chud/KeSPA for being a dick? (I'm obviously not the only one)
Chud came onto this forum for damage control (maybe they do care?). He has been very professional on this thread, no doubt, but he has also reinforced the arrogance of KeSPA and giving disingenuous arguments here and there (maybe Flash and Maru did reject tournament invitations, but were they online and requiring no travel? This is a very low-effort entry on KeSPA's part and their players).
We have a KeSPA representative presenting fair, logical points of view on a western forum. Can you appreciate this? Were you around when many of KeSPA's more controversial decisions (in Brood War particularly) were not addressed by KeSPA at all? This situation, in comparison, is not at all controversial, and yet we still receive this response. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been raised by following this thread.
I think if KeSPA had not responded at all to Destiny's request, it would have served their interests better than Chud's email response being posted on a public forum.
On August 14 2014 01:31 JustPassingBy wrote: Not defending the guy you quoted, but the sad truth is that in the public, you are not judged by the sum of what you have done, but by the worst thing you have done in recent history.
I am judging by the original email sent in what Chud probably assumed would only be read by one person, not his responses here which are read by everybody.
On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote: I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see how professional Chuddinator has been, and you can't see the positives of his interaction not only with Destiny, but with the Teamliquid community, you are not the sort of person whose lowered opinions matter at all.
I don't see the positives of his interaction with Destiny. When you get a college rejection letter, it reads something like, "We are sorry but there were other candidates who better fit our admissions criteria, so we are not able to offer you admission at this time," not "To be frank, what value would you add to our campus? You have a 2.5 GPA." When you get a job rejection letter, you either do not hear anything back at all, or you get something like "Sorry but you are not a fit for this position at this time," not "To be frank, what value would you add to our company? Your experience in eSports is poor, and we are not interested." One approach keeps bridges open; the other burns them. Do you really think Destiny would have posted Chud's email response if it had been in the same tone as the former approaches? And if he did, do you think people would be disparaging Chud/KeSPA for being a dick? (I'm obviously not the only one)
Destiny was not applying to an opening. He asked someone he didn't know for something that wasn't his. And when that person asked for more information, Destiny called him selfish and posted an email online like he caught him red-handed or something. I mean clearly Chud was open to possibly working something out. Are we reading the same email? But if his organization doesn't suddenly drop to worship at Destiny's feet around the time of Proleague finals, that makes KeSPA selfish?
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote: Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before.
Where is the report on twitch ad revenue? I'm still curious about how much just pre-roll ads generate in this situation.
From the indiegogo: Following this tournament I'll provide a detailed write-up of viewership stats and how much money I was able to generate via sponsorships/ad revenue/etc...
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote: Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before.
Where is the report on twitch ad revenue? I'm still curious about how much just pre-roll ads generate in this situation.
From the indiegogo: Following this tournament I'll provide a detailed write-up of viewership stats and how much money I was able to generate via sponsorships/ad revenue/etc...
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote: Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before.
Where is the report on twitch ad revenue? I'm still curious about how much just pre-roll ads generate in this situation.
From the indiegogo: Following this tournament I'll provide a detailed write-up of viewership stats and how much money I was able to generate via sponsorships/ad revenue/etc...
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: By staying transparent and keeping your take-home comparatively modest you help uphold the image that you have good intentions (making money is a part of that).
So Nation Wars, made a tournament, watched by 1k live audience, and 20k online. They gathered 80k€ from ticket sales for attending 4 team matches live, and 85k€ more for hosting 6 days of online games, and 1 yet to come. Cash prize is 28k€... So let's say ticket sales covered the venue, then management/organizers pocketed 57k€ out of 85k€ for their hard work of 7 days of stream.That is 2/3 of the crowd funding money.... Not to forget Day9 who said he wasn't payed. Not to forget their sponsors who may or may not have been added to the crowd funding total. Do you really think that Destiny's share of 25% isn't modest? Do you think he will come a do a second tournament if you payed him with IHOP coupons?
Notice I said 'keeping'? Between 20-30% for salaries (I get the impression this was mostly a one man show) is pretty typical for altruistic endeavors.
I was just suggesting if he were to have gathered much more sponsorships and instead lets say he paid the cost of the tourney through crowd sourcing (~$6,000) and then got $10,000 in sponsorship money/gifts he could word things the same way.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself.
But he would be taking home more than 50% of the revenue generated by the event. There is nothing inherently deceptive/wrong with doing that, so long as people can easily understand that is the relationship. But it's clear based off of the response to $1800 that if he would of taken home more than everyone else combined, the community which supported it might have had different feelings about it.
The 'source' of his pay isn't really important in an endeavor like this except that it be clear where it is coming from and how much it is.
If he wanted to say that going forward the indiegogo will only cover operating expenses not including his own pay that would be fine. If he wanted to say his pay would be a % or the entirety of sponsorship's that would be fine too.
But if he were to just leave it at his previous statement it leaves a lot of grey area.
For instance if he raised $10,000 (indie) for destiny III without clarifying how he would pay himself, then went and got a big 'year-long/multi-event' sponsorship with a major sponsor it could get really sketchy really quick.
Lets say the sponsor is Ford (a guy knows a guy in the ad department and gets them to throw some change at this project). They offer Destiny $100,000 for 4 more tournaments of equal or greater size in 1 year time.
Well now he can still say the same thing that "the tourny was entirely crowdsourced and I only took the 'extra' sponsorship money". Except now it would be totally disingenuous.
He would be taking home 1.5-2.5x more than everyone else involved combined and essentially 'stealing money' out of particularly the players pockets. Of course just disclosing that's what you would do ahead of time would alleviate those concerns. I could see the case for how it wouldn't be criminal theft but it certainly would generate a different response than what happened.
TL;DR: Keep your take under/around 30% of total funds and people won't really have a reason to complain (of course that won't stop them). But leaving how you will pay yourself vague will result in undue stress for you and others.
On August 13 2014 19:16 Faust852 wrote: I still laugh at people saying that Destiny stole 1800$, wtf guys, it is underpayment for all the work he did. And why would he do a tournament like that for free ? Are you morons ? v_v
Who the fuck has said the Destiny stole $1800?
You, kindof.
Bollocks. Destiny hasn't stolen a penny and I never claimed that he has. Please quote me where I have said that, that's right you can't because you're talking shit.
In no way shape or form have I even insinuated that. All I have said is that I feel the remaining profit from sponsorship money after Destiny has been compensated for casting and organising the event should be put towards Destiny II.
So you say he should have used this money for Destiny II when 1k8 isn't even enough compensation for the work he did. So you are saying he stole the investissement money.
???
I don't even...
Crot4le, the reason people misunderstand you is because you never defined how much Destiny should have been compensated for his casting. Since his compensation wasn't part of the original funding/indiegogo, it makes sense for him to pocket the sponsorship money. However, in the future I agree with you that he should specify his own compensation in the crowdfunding campaign, and if he exceeds his funding goals (say 10K) he should not pocket the surplus but put that towards the next tournament.
That's exactly what I mean, I guess I should learn to be more clearer.
Wait, Destiny kept the money from the sponsorships? I thought this tournament was a "from the community for the community" experiment and that any money made from it would flow to the next few tournaments of which Destiny hoped to make some surplus money. :o
He kept the money he received from the sponsors he picked up. Pretty sure he stated from the beginning that he would use all the money from the indigogo for Destiny I, and whatever was left would go towards Destiny II while what he makes from sponsors and ad revenue he would keep.
I checked everything and there was no word of him keeping the money from the sponsorships, but there is nothing about putting that money into the next tournament either, so I guess I just misunderstood him. source/
The article is well written and analysed. A rare and excellent example of displaying the finances of running a tournament for SC2. It was a magnificent read, appreciate it a lot.
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote: Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before.
Where is the report on twitch ad revenue? I'm still curious about how much just pre-roll ads generate in this situation.
From the indiegogo: Following this tournament I'll provide a detailed write-up of viewership stats and how much money I was able to generate via sponsorships/ad revenue/etc...
On a totally unrelated note, I want to make a point about transparency. The point of transparency is not to immunize you to criticism - on the contrary, it is precisely so that people can see the data and make criticisms.
The principle behind the idea is that if you are open to criticism and willing to deal with it, then you have a feedback mechanism to know what things are making people unhappy and you can fix it, much faster than if you're trying to find the problems on your own. Sure, lots of people have dumb and unfair opinions, but that doesn't mean their criticisms are baseless or have no validity.
I don't like the defensive way people are using transparency, as though being transparent in and of itself is a virtue. Dealing with criticism is a virtue. Willing to take the bitter medicine of hearing things that you don't want to hear and repairing the mistakes or attitude is a virtue. Simply telling people what you do and assuming that makes you virtuous or responding that you don't give a shit what people think is not a virtue. That makes you Kim Kardashian.
EDIT: Tangential to this is why it is "unprofessional" to publish e-mail correspondence. There's another person who may not want to deal with public criticism of their opinions and they may have perfectly legitimate reasons for that and some expectation of respect for that. Unless you're blowing the whistle on something really bad (i.e. willing or even wanting to burn bridges), it's better to ask for permission before doing something like that.
After hearing your description of how much work you had to do to organize the tournament, I feel that you should have run ads between series. Probably not between maps, but I think that your payment should reflect your viewing turnout, and $1800 actually feels too low. I mean, you have a family to support, and that's not usual for people in this industry.
Man i cant believe how narrow minded you can be culturally...
Destiny repeats over and over again that if you send official emails between business partners you're supposed to expect that they possibly get published otherwise you need to use nda's.
Thats not how business culture works at least in Germany and Japan ( the places ive been to from my experience, Korea seems to be similar) negotiations stay private, so you can talk bluntly and directly. You trust the other party to at least ask for permission before you publish parts of negotiations (most probably out of context) because thats throwing one side under the bus. You dont use public opinion to your advantage to push your agenda. In the end that just makes both parties look very bad and confrontational.
Ofc youve got no legal consequences by publishing stuff but usually the guy that leaks stuff stays anonymous and is considered a snitch in business culture. I dont know how someone can be so blind to see that in other cultures this behaviour is incredibly rude, disrespectful and makes you very untrustworthy as a business partner.
Apparently its ok culturally in the UK and the US ( i dont know) but that doesnt mean its ok everywhere. It seems to be really hard to grasp as a concept though.
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote: Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before.
Where is the report on twitch ad revenue? I'm still curious about how much just pre-roll ads generate in this situation.
From the indiegogo: Following this tournament I'll provide a detailed write-up of viewership stats and how much money I was able to generate via sponsorships/ad revenue/etc...
On August 14 2014 06:40 JimSocks wrote: He didn't run ads
As far as I know, it's not possible to disable pre-roll ads anymore on Twitch. At least I can't anymore. Maybe some other channels get special deals though. I haven't been running ads, but on a day where I averaged 300 viewers for 3 hours, I made $3. I'm not sure why exactly his ad revenue doesn't scale up well with views except maybe a higher percentage of ad blocking viewers.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
I'm so confused by the fact that you (you run quite a successful business after all, so you're pretty familiar with how corporations work) seem to be okay with sharing e-mails in public. In fact, most e-mails I've seen from larger companies usually contain a small disclaimer that the e-mail could contain sensitive information and should not be shared with anyone except the intended receiver. I mean, sure, that's just an automatic footer that gets added no matter what the e-mail contains, but I'm pretty sure most companies expect you not to post screenshots of them online. It might not be required to have approval to share a conversation, but it'd be a nice gesture. I'd be pretty pissed if someone posted a conversation that I had with them without asking me first. Would you be interested in clarifying your opinions?
Sure, that are times when posting such information may be necessary (such as if you really needed to prove something the other party was denying for example), but things like this just come off as slightly rude to me. Maybe this is a "damned it you do and damned if you don't"-scenario, and Destiny just decided it was better to post it. I just don't understand the whole "It's fine to post whole conversations"-attitude so many seem to be having.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
I'm so confused by the fact that you (you run quite a successful business after all, so you're pretty familiar with how corporations work) seem to be okay with sharing e-mails in public. In fact, most e-mails I've seen from larger companies usually contain a small disclaimer that the e-mail could contain sensitive information and should not be shared with anyone except the intended receiver. I mean, sure, that's just an automatic footer that gets added no matter what the e-mail contains, but I'm pretty sure most companies expect you not to post screenshots of them online. It might not be required to have approval to share a conversation, but it'd be a nice gesture. I'd be pretty pissed if someone posted a conversation that I had with them without asking me first. Would you be interested in clarifying your opinions?
Sure, that are times when posting such information may be necessary (such as if you really needed to prove something the other party was denying for example), but things like this just come off as slightly rude to me. Maybe this is a "damned it you do and damned if you don't"-scenario, and Destiny just decided it was better to post it. I just don't understand the whole "It's fine to post whole conversations"-attitude so many seem to be having.
on Chanmam's twitch show Unfiltered today, Destiny said he was in fact part of a corporation, trained as a Supervisor or something for Harrah's (the casinos).
And Destiny said he was taught by Harrah's, that ALL business mails should be written with the knowledge that it might be read by the public, so you should only put in these Business correspondences, things you would be okay with the public reading
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
I'm so confused by the fact that you (you run quite a successful business after all, so you're pretty familiar with how corporations work) seem to be okay with sharing e-mails in public. In fact, most e-mails I've seen from larger companies usually contain a small disclaimer that the e-mail could contain sensitive information and should not be shared with anyone except the intended receiver. I mean, sure, that's just an automatic footer that gets added no matter what the e-mail contains, but I'm pretty sure most companies expect you not to post screenshots of them online. It might not be required to have approval to share a conversation, but it'd be a nice gesture. I'd be pretty pissed if someone posted a conversation that I had with them without asking me first. Would you be interested in clarifying your opinions?
Sure, that are times when posting such information may be necessary (such as if you really needed to prove something the other party was denying for example), but things like this just come off as slightly rude to me. Maybe this is a "damned it you do and damned if you don't"-scenario, and Destiny just decided it was better to post it. I just don't understand the whole "It's fine to post whole conversations"-attitude so many seem to be having.
on Chanmam's twitch show Unfiltered today, Destiny said he WAS in fact part of a corporation, trained as a Supervisor or something for Harrah's (the casinos).
And Destiny said he was taught by Harrah's, that ALL business mails should be written with the knowledge that it might be read by the public, so you should only put in these Business correspondences, things you would be okay with the public reading
...unless the email has a specific NDA
I can understand someone being ignorant of the fact that the rest of the world doesn't operate that way and considers this a huge breach of trust, but refusing to admit this may have been a mistake once the culture clash has been established by others? That sort of stubbornness I can't get behind.
I don't think that Chud said anything compromising, either. It's just the principle of the matter.
On August 14 2014 08:42 Kerence wrote: Sure, that are times when posting such information may be necessary (such as if you really needed to prove something the other party was denying for example), but things like this just come off as slightly rude to me. Maybe this is a "damned it you do and damned if you don't"-scenario, and Destiny just decided it was better to post it. I just don't understand the whole "It's fine to post whole conversations"-attitude so many seem to be having.
You're trying to organize a tournament. You contact a big organization to ask it they'd be willing to participate. You get rejected because you're not deemed relevant enough. People ask why you did not get this participation. You tell them. They keep asking. Maybe you didn't ask properly, maybe they didn't really say no, maybe you simply lied, blah blah blah. You want to be transparent, so you publish the rejection text verbatim. And who knows, maybe this could help put some pressure on this big organization, since you could not get anywhere on your own. At the least, people will actually know why it didn't work.
There was no personal attack, no leak of any confidential information, no secret negociation magic, "I tried, couldn't do it, here's what they said". It was just a freaking rejection letter, nothing to write tens of pages about.
So what if KeSPA does not like people seeing on what grounds they decide not to participate in a tournament? That's an issue about ego, not about confidentiality, honor or whatever else. Sure, it might also be cultural, but then again it's KeSPA. There's some history there.
Besides, if there *has* to be a fault somewhere, it's on KeSPA's side. If a company does not want an email being published, that's what confidentiality agreements are for. Otherwise, they should think about it as if it was always going to be seen by the public. If someone wants to play the professionalism card, that's where it should be applied.
Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs.
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not.
PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement.
You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it?
TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved.
I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth.
I'm so confused by the fact that you (you run quite a successful business after all, so you're pretty familiar with how corporations work) seem to be okay with sharing e-mails in public. In fact, most e-mails I've seen from larger companies usually contain a small disclaimer that the e-mail could contain sensitive information and should not be shared with anyone except the intended receiver. I mean, sure, that's just an automatic footer that gets added no matter what the e-mail contains, but I'm pretty sure most companies expect you not to post screenshots of them online. It might not be required to have approval to share a conversation, but it'd be a nice gesture. I'd be pretty pissed if someone posted a conversation that I had with them without asking me first. Would you be interested in clarifying your opinions?
Sure, that are times when posting such information may be necessary (such as if you really needed to prove something the other party was denying for example), but things like this just come off as slightly rude to me. Maybe this is a "damned it you do and damned if you don't"-scenario, and Destiny just decided it was better to post it. I just don't understand the whole "It's fine to post whole conversations"-attitude so many seem to be having.
on Chanmam's twitch show Unfiltered today, Destiny said he was in fact part of a corporation, trained as a Supervisor or something for Harrah's (the casinos).
And Destiny said he was taught by Harrah's, that ALL business mails should be written with the knowledge that it might be read by the public, so you should only put in these Business correspondences, things you would be okay with the public reading
...unless the email has a specific NDA
There's a difference between what you should do to protect yourself, which is "attach an NDA or expect everything to be shared, and really, expect it anyway", versus what you should do to be polite and maintain a positive relationship, which is "don't share emails unless the other party gives their OK". Obviously Destiny has the right to share the emails, but Chuddinater and the rest of KeSPA also have the right to blow him off because he did or for whatever other reason.
There's a lot of rhetoric used to defend actions that doesn't actually mean anything. There's a spectrum of philosophies on how to behave in esports from "everyone should cooperate to create the best possible product" to "everyone should keep their own interests as top priority." There's also a spectrum on how transparent business should be. If people want to explain themselves, then they ought to be defending where they specifically land on each spectrum and explaining why they behaved in a particular way in a particular instance. Instead, when being challenged by someone to their left or to their right on the spectrum, they appeal to the ideals of whatever extreme make sense for the rhetoric of their defense. Like it's always ok to sympathize with someone for looking out for themselves or always ok to scorn someone who is uncooperative even when other parties are willing to be unselfish, etc. It's all a bunch of BS.
The best course of action isn't always clear but trying to make someone's decision look bad by showing how far they've strayed from some ideal is definitely not helpful. In other words, it'd be nice if everyone was a bit more pragmatic. Don't talk past the particulars of a situation just because some ideal has been violated. Forget the theory on how things ought to work. Use your knowledge of the people involved and of the situation in order to answer the question "what action do I have to take in order to achieve my goals?"
That's great you found a way to have your own tournaments and you are receiving much love from the community to even have the opportunity to do it. I wouldn't worry too much about KESPA. Keep having tournaments and they will eventually want to support it. If you are willing to put the work in they won't ask you information they can gather themselves from your broadcasts. They'll see how they fit into the picture and work something out with you. You have to think about in a way that they are spending their time and money by having their players practice, participate and potentially even show up for your event. Good luck with it Destiny. :D
The feedback and the transparency are great ideas, allows us to get into the mind of someone who wants to host a tournament and it's quite a thrilling story. Thanks !
imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa.
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
About the KeSPA issue, the only reason not to work with them would be pride and stubborn-ness. There is basicly nothing to lose and everything to gain by inviting them or accepting their invite, and the only reason you would not accept this would be out of spite for previous actions. That's something that, at least in my opinion, a manager of a tournament (because thats what you do, you manage this) would not let happen. You don't let the emotions rule the decisions.
I really enjoyed the tournament, or at least the part I was able to watch. I liked the different style of commentary. No hyping of lost games and a relaxed kind of atmosphere. I do not understand the rant about the money Destiny made out of this tournament. Why should people be discouraged to do something for the community, rather than encouraged by being able to make a living of it? You are Ok, if the players are paid for participating and the casters for casting, why should the organizer go without any money? There is something really wrong about how people think charity should work. Here is a ted talk explaining exactly the problem, maybe it can change your view.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
On August 14 2014 20:44 YoTcA wrote: I really enjoyed the tournament, or at least the part I was able to watch. I liked the different style of commentary. No hyping of lost games and a relaxed kind of atmosphere. I do not understand the rant about the money Destiny made out of this tournament. Why should people be discouraged to do something for the community, rather than encouraged by being able to make a living of it? You are Ok, if the players are paid for participating and the casters for casting, why should the organizer go without any money? There is something really wrong about how people think charity should work. Here is a ted talk explaining exactly the problem, maybe it can change your view.
Because the players "salary" and casters salary was settled beforehand and communicated to the public. Unlike the sponsorship money, upon which he stumbled with luck (as in: it was not planned) and decided to pocket for himself.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if its retarded one. Im guessing that you did not watch Unfiltred last evening? There Destiny clearly explained how much work it actually is. Now, just because you can't wrap your head around how much work it is doesn't mean it wanst a lot. Try imagining putting yourself in Destinys shoes, maybe you can start to realise how idiotic what you're saying really are.
Nobody forced anybody to give money to Destinys tournament.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
A lot of people simply aren't realising the fact that the sponsor money came on the back of the community donations. Without the crowdfunding you don't get the prize pool and there is no tournament to sell to sponsors.
A lot of people are really over egging the amount of organisation that a tournament like this takes, with some even reckoning it is a months work.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
A lot of people simply aren't realising the fact that the sponsor money came on the back of the community donations. Without the crowdfunding you don't get the prize pool and there is no tournament to sell to sponsors.
A lot of people are really over egging the amount of organisation that a tournament like this takes, with some even reckoning it is a months work.
To be honest, it was probably a lot of work, since it was the very first tournament. But once you have the format, website, etc. fixed, the next tournaments should be significantly easier to organize.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if its retarded one. Im guessing that you did not watch Unfiltred last evening? There Destiny clearly explained how much work it actually is. Now, just because you can't wrap your head around how much work it is doesn't mean it wanst a lot. Try imagining putting yourself in Destinys shoes, maybe you can start to realise how idiotic what you're saying really are.
Nobody forced anybody to give money to Destinys tournament.
hahaha, oh man. you are so deluded. When did I say that Destiny should not get anything?? nope. I'm simply making the point that its the communities funding that made that money for him. and thus, the community should decide how much a caster/organiser should make out of it OR at least let him tell people that he'll be taking the excess Before letting them donate unknowingly. Kind of sneaky just taking it without asking.... no? hidden agenda! drama!
Nobody remembers Destiny saying out loud on Unfiltered that this tournament was going to happen whether it was a net loss (padding the pool with his own money to make it happen) or a net gain? Did I imagine that? And I missed the recap on Unfiltered last night when he talked some more about it, so maybe there is more to be learned about just what kind of effort he put into this tournament for those who think he just emailed a bunch of people for a few hours and magic happened.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if its retarded one. Im guessing that you did not watch Unfiltred last evening? There Destiny clearly explained how much work it actually is. Now, just because you can't wrap your head around how much work it is doesn't mean it wanst a lot. Try imagining putting yourself in Destinys shoes, maybe you can start to realise how idiotic what you're saying really are.
Nobody forced anybody to give money to Destinys tournament.
hahaha, oh man. you are so deluded. When did I say that Destiny should not get anything?? nope. I'm simply making the point that its the communities funding that made that money for him. and thus, the community should decide how much a caster/organiser should make out of it OR at least let him tell people that he'll be taking the excess Before letting them donate unknowingly. Kind of sneaky just taking it without asking.... no? hidden agenda! drama!
Let's get this clear, if you donate to the Red Cross you would want everyone who donated to get togheter and decide where the money should go? Cause that is what you are saying and its beyond mindboggling. In a perfect world, sure that would be great, but guess what, we don't live in one. The point that I can agree with you is that he should have stated that the excess money would be his salary.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
A lot of people simply aren't realising the fact that the sponsor money came on the back of the community donations. Without the crowdfunding you don't get the prize pool and there is no tournament to sell to sponsors.
A lot of people are really over egging the amount of organisation that a tournament like this takes, with some even reckoning it is a months work.
To be honest, it was probably a lot of work, since it was the very first tournament. But once you have the format, website, etc. fixed, the next tournaments should be significantly easier to organize.
I guess the reimbursement ought to be lower every next tournament then?
Keep in mind the sponsor money really was because of Destiny and his name considering a new event. Without Destiny even if everything is the same my guess is those sponsors don't put out any money. It was as much a "Destiny" sponsorship as it was an event sponsorship since it was really a trust his brand would drive a quality event. If the sponsors are happy with their ROI than there shouldn't be an issue with that money being used as Destiny's pay since his reputation generated that money in the first place. Now going forward since the tournament was successful if more sponsors came out and gave money more based on the community funded first event than perhaps the allocation of funds would need more consideration, but even then it is bonus money outside what the community generates. Keep sponsors happy about what their money is going toward, based on what the sponsors want not the community. I've yet to read that any sponsors are upset with their ROI or Destiny keeping their sponsor money, so unless the community didn't get something that was promised if they donated than why do you care you are getting what you were told you'd get with a donation.
So it seems to me if the sponsors don't care, than the community shouldn't either. Going forward a setup where community funds events, and Destiny were to then pocket the money from sponsors of events up to a certain point(than maybe create a bit of a slush find with extra money for future events) that it would be a win / win.
The community gets an event they fund, and their money goes to exactly what it says it will, the event and players. Destiny can go find sponsors and create those connections relating directly to him if he feels motivated to do that to pay himself, or find other ways to generate his pay. Not sure if that would work but it avoids a situation where people quit donating after a certain point believing their money is then just going toward "the bottom line" instead of the event. The trade-off is the community then needs to deal with annoying ads, so the next question would be is the community willing to pay for no ads.
The reality is if the community wants a quality event you should want Destiny to be paid something. You get what you pay for, and in my business experience even nominal pay increases quality and effort and it is a small price for a quality event.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if its retarded one. Im guessing that you did not watch Unfiltred last evening? There Destiny clearly explained how much work it actually is. Now, just because you can't wrap your head around how much work it is doesn't mean it wanst a lot. Try imagining putting yourself in Destinys shoes, maybe you can start to realise how idiotic what you're saying really are.
Nobody forced anybody to give money to Destinys tournament.
hahaha, oh man. you are so deluded. When did I say that Destiny should not get anything?? nope. I'm simply making the point that its the communities funding that made that money for him. and thus, the community should decide how much a caster/organiser should make out of it OR at least let him tell people that he'll be taking the excess Before letting them donate unknowingly. Kind of sneaky just taking it without asking.... no? hidden agenda! drama!
Let's get this clear, if you donate to the Red Cross you would want everyone who donated to get togheter and decide where the money should go? Cause that is what you are saying and its beyond mindboggling. In a perfect world, sure that would be great, but guess what, we don't live in one. The point that I can agree with you is that he should have stated that the excess money would be his salary.
i think it is fair to say there is a slight difference between a crowdfunded tournament in a niche video game community and an international humanitarian aid charity
i understand your point but you can't just apply the same logic to totally different scenarios
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
Let's ask the sponsors what he should do with that money since that's where the money he earned came from. Then you realize how asinine the concept is and move on.
"asinine" haha. Learned a new word this week bud? Get off your high horse and learn to accept that people have opinions. You can have yours too! Its incredible right?!
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, even if its retarded one. Im guessing that you did not watch Unfiltred last evening? There Destiny clearly explained how much work it actually is. Now, just because you can't wrap your head around how much work it is doesn't mean it wanst a lot. Try imagining putting yourself in Destinys shoes, maybe you can start to realise how idiotic what you're saying really are.
Nobody forced anybody to give money to Destinys tournament.
hahaha, oh man. you are so deluded. When did I say that Destiny should not get anything?? nope. I'm simply making the point that its the communities funding that made that money for him. and thus, the community should decide how much a caster/organiser should make out of it OR at least let him tell people that he'll be taking the excess Before letting them donate unknowingly. Kind of sneaky just taking it without asking.... no? hidden agenda! drama!
Let's get this clear, if you donate to the Red Cross you would want everyone who donated to get togheter and decide where the money should go? Cause that is what you are saying and its beyond mindboggling. In a perfect world, sure that would be great, but guess what, we don't live in one. The point that I can agree with you is that he should have stated that the excess money would be his salary.
pfft, the red cross comparison is mindboggling. haha that is incomparable man. anyway. enough flamebaiting. You see my point, you understand what i'm saying so whats the problem. simply accept that someone has other views (that are also a suggestion/improvement on the issue) and move on. You cant state that my suggestion of having a poll for the community to decide on the money would of:
A. More than likely ended in the same result anyway (The community would have voted that the excess should go to destiny. I'm almost certain of that, as rediculous as it seems).
And B, most if not all of the negative feedback regarding the issue with the money he took would have never happened. And everyone would be happier... It was just the smarter option
I'm not talking at all about the Kespa thing. There would have been comments around that regardless, as the email was posted very very very unprofessionally.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Try not to listen to people who seem to enjoy nitpicking about every little detail. Nobody is perfect.
And about KeSPA, they can hog their precious players to themselves if that's what they want. As shown by the poll, half of the voters do not care about their arrogant attitude.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Why the community should decide about money that isn't theirs? Seriously.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Why the community should decide about money that isn't theirs? Seriously.
Mmm, you apparently don't understand fans of any sports anywhere. The drama around Destiny is a grain of sand in comparison to the conclusion of the saga of transferring ownership of the Los Angeles Clippers from one billionaire to another.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Why the community should decide about money that isn't theirs? Seriously.
Because the money went to an entity (tournament) which is mainly funded by the community.
Seriously people, there are arguments supporting both sides and there is no objective reason, why one side is more right than the other. You people are arguing in a circle based on the ground that you prioritize certain reasons differently. Destiny pocketed the sponsorship money from the tournament that came from outside Indiegogo. Some people think the money is well-deserved, some people are irritated by that move, there is some truth to both reasonings. Either way, he didn't do anything against his words and it's time to move on.
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Why the community should decide about money that isn't theirs? Seriously.
Because the money went to an entity (tournament) which is mainly funded by the community.
Seriously people, there are arguments supporting both sides and there is no objective reason, why one side is more right than the other. You people are arguing in a circle based on the ground that you prioritize certain reasons differently. Destiny pocketed the sponsorship money from the tournament that came from outside Indiegogo. Some people think the money is well-deserved, some people are irritated by that move, there is some truth to both reasonings. Either way, he didn't do anything against his words and it's time to move on.
While the tournament is funded by the community, Destiny have no legal obligation to inject it back to the community. He've fulfilled the legal obligation of completing the event and is in the process of completing the stretch goals from Indiegogo. The cummunity isn't untitled to anything more.
Thanks for this Destiny! If all the other tournament organizers were this transparent about what they do to organize their tournaments, there'd be a lot fewer issues in this community. You're awesome and can't wait for Destiny II!
"WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
The only suggestion that I'd make regarding this whole drama is that, for the next tournament, Destiny adds his fee in the Indiegogo campaign from the start (he can estimate how much time/effort organizing the tourney will take, hence how much money he feels he will have "earned" by doing so). Also, having a statement regarding additionnal cash (whether he gets it, invests it in another tourney, adds to the cash prize, improves the production, etc). With those two things, everything is clear from the get go, and everyone know what he gets.
But still, this tournament was great, and I especially appreciate this post-tourney report ! Thank you Destiny !
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand. anyway heres a question to answer your question - Who should decide that?? (the community)
Why the community should decide about money that isn't theirs? Seriously.
Because the money went to an entity (tournament) which is mainly funded by the community.
Seriously people, there are arguments supporting both sides and there is no objective reason, why one side is more right than the other. You people are arguing in a circle based on the ground that you prioritize certain reasons differently. Destiny pocketed the sponsorship money from the tournament that came from outside Indiegogo. Some people think the money is well-deserved, some people are irritated by that move, there is some truth to both reasonings. Either way, he didn't do anything against his words and it's time to move on.
While the tournament is funded by the community, Destiny have no legal obligation to inject it back to the community. He've fulfilled the legal obligation of completing the event and is in the process of completing the stretch goals from Indiegogo. The cummunity isn't untitled to anything more.
If we are talking about the legal point of view, then you are 100% right and there is no need to argue in the first place. The people arguing are obviously talking about the moral point of view.
The money arguments on this thread... just... boggle my mind. In the real world, you aren't paid for "how much work you do." If you organize something, if you take the risk to start a business or go on a business endeavor, as this tournament was, you either sink with the ship or reap the benefits. That's kind of how capitalism works. I read the Indigogo post carefully and there's absolutely nothing that Destiny has said that was misleading. It's impossible to control how much money you get for an event if you go the route that Destiny did, and of course he can and should pocket money earned from the event in the way that he did. Remember, he would have taken a loss, perhaps a significant one, if things did not go well.
It's fantastic that people like Rifkin do tourneys and put all the money towards future tournaments. However, this implies that they have other sources of income, because otherwise how you gonna eat? Every other eSports professional (casters and players) that I can think of earns plenty of money from their participation in the scene, yet you don't see them posting how much money they earn from their contracts and tournaments. I don't see any criticism of them on this thread.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm entitled to mine: if you're criticizing Destiny for being transparent about how much money he made, you're a fucking idiot.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
The drama in this thread is why I'm not a fan of transparency. Destiny organised a tournament, people decided to donate money out of their own free will, so Destiny can do with the money whatever he pleases. Crowdfunding is not the same as buying a stake in something. Smart business sense dictates that he should invest it into the next tournament, but that depends whether he intends to make it a series or not.
On the other hand, publishing private email conversations without permission of the other party is incredibly unprofessional.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
Ladies and gentlemen, Destiny "2014" through and through haha.
What an immature attitude man. I did see something like this coming. You have that kind of personality. Not the kind that commits selfless acts, but the kind that will do whatever it takes for personal gain, without letting the people who funded you know beforehand. And from what you said, you probably don't need "Crowd Funding" at all eh?
Anyway, take no criticism, whine about not getting your way with Kespa (child), take no feedback seriously, get butthurt and argue with everyone, whatever. It doesnt matter. Think its time for you to change a little, for yourself. You're in the public now, not X17, put your "professional" cap on.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
Eh? Of course you got the sponsorship money off the back of the community donations? It's so fucking simple: without the crowdfunding money you don't have a tournament, and without a tournament you don't have any sponsorship.
On August 15 2014 01:10 Destiny wrote:What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
You say "what if?" as if that's not exactly what happened. Well yeah, that's exactly what I think many, if not most, assumed would be your compensation (after your casting fees) is the benefit of this tournament in raising your profile and platform and the chance to gain more subscribers. This is the win-win situation behind most community tournaments. As in I will organise this community tournament using community funds and in return for organising it I get to use it on my platform. That's kinda what I though was the case going into this. I thought that, casting fee aside, your compensation for hosting the tournament was the advantages of raising your profile, your brand and your website platform - not to make a ton of money from sponsors.
All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
Great luck in pulling that off and if you can then you deserve every penny.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
I made the same point before, he made the same point, so I guess I'll have to quote it for you:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote: Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
On August 14 2014 20:45 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:09 ObviousOne wrote:
On August 14 2014 20:00 LeeJohnDong wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:28 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On August 14 2014 19:25 LeeJohnDong wrote: imho, you should have asked the community what to do with the leftover cash (Their money). if they voted on a poll or something to say "keep it, you earned it" then yes, it would sit nicer with 90% of the people you have pissed off.. I mean, its their money at the end of the day, they donated it to your tournament that was 100% "crowd funded", at no point did you say you'd take 30% of it for yourself. I for one think that most of that money if not all should have been put forward to the next tournament (which is unlikely to happen now as your inability to take criticism is astounding and just makes things worse).
Plus saying its "2 weeks work" is complete bs too. I mean, he'd of been doing the same shit anyway, and inviting players/etc is not something that takes 8 hours a day. having sleep issues is personal and shouldnt come into a work environment ever.
I'm not even going to comment on the absolute shambles you've made with Kespa. </rant>
The event was fully crowd funded the extra money came from the sponsors he had for the event, clarifying just in case theirs some confusion.
I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament.
Still, it was raised by this tournament, and the only reason it was "left over" is because of the communities contribution. Imho, it should go straight into this 10k tourny idea tbh. realistically, id say most of the community who donated was under the premise that all the money raised would go into the next one. I mean, there would be No sponsorship deals if they hadn't contributed anyway.
Just to clarify your position, you believe that Destiny should earn zero dollars for running this tournament. Is this correct?
Funding goals/distribution My budget for this tournament is $5,000.
$200 will go towards the Korean/English bilingual admin I have chosen. He'll be responsible for doing vetos/setting up games and doing post game/post group interviews, if we decide to do them. $200 will go towards art work from the artist. This includes branding/logo, slides between games, and overlays for in game. $600 will go towards casters. I will be paying each invited caster $100 for casting 1 day, meaning I will need 6 different casters for the tournament. If I'm not able to find 6, I'll repeat some casters. So far I've confirmed Incontrol, ToD, Nathanias and Minigun as casters. $500 goes towards Indiegogo fees for fundraising. $4000 will go towards the prize pool. The distribution will be as follows: 1st place $1,600, 2nd place $800, 3rd-4th place $400, 5th-8th place $200. Extra money raised from the Indiegogo will be put towards future tournaments (Destiny II).
Nope, never made that point. Im simply saying the community should decide whats deserved + a going about it a different way/smarter way with a poll or something would definitely have silenced alot of people here. taking a sum of that amount for something like that is unjustified by many people here, as you can see from the thread. Makes sense to me.
If all money left over go to the next tournament, how much money does he get in salary?
IMHO none for this one lol (as he never said he would take any and i find that sneaky and misleading.. as he sold it to the community as everything raised would be going to the tourny, not to his pockets.). but he probably does deserve a bit, but should be "transparent" to the donators to let them know at least beforehand.
The campaign Funding goals/distribution specifically mention each person involved, except you. I don't know why but that's my only problem with it. Next time please make sure to state how you get paid too. Personally the function of sponsorship should be to lower the amount needed from crowdfunding hence why I’d make it official crowdfunding perks.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
People criticizing his fee are looking at this the wrong way. If he didn't get paid, it would pretty much be a net loss for him considering all the time he put into it. As one of the only people in a position to line up the players and casters that he did, and with the stream visibility to produce some excellent viewer numbers, it is only natural to expect some takeaway for him. The only reason critics even have something to latch on to is because of how transparent he's being about his tournament, which with a couple of exceptions (like TB), no one does. It was a huge success for what it was, with great games and casters, and that's because of Destiny and the work he put in. If the community put $5k into some no-name's tournament, there is little to no chance it would have the production quality or the player/caster quality Destiny arranged for this. He deserves every penny of the sponsorship money.
On August 15 2014 01:29 LeeJohnDong wrote: Ladies and gentlemen, Destiny "2014" through and through haha.
What an immature attitude man. I did see something like this coming. You have that kind of personality. Not the kind that commits selfless acts, but the kind that will do whatever it takes for personal gain, without letting the people who funded you know beforehand. And from what you said, you probably don't need "Crowd Funding" at all eh?
Anyway, take no criticism, whine about not getting your way with Kespa (child), take no feedback seriously, get butthurt and argue with everyone, whatever. It doesnt matter. Think its time for you to change a little, for yourself. You're in the public now, not X17, put your "professional" cap on.
Whatever you have against him personally, you should be able to understand this is his job.
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
If you criticize Destiny for making money, it's just kind of painfully obvious that you don't like him as a person and are fishing for some reason to come in here and argue with him and be dramatic. Because your actual logic is do retarded as to preclude it from being a genuine, non-biased belief. But please go on and keep showcasing your stupidity to us.
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
Oh. My. Gawd. Hold the phone. Destiny wasn't perfectly clear about where the extra money was going? You're telling me that after being unsure, he decided he deserved some money himself for time put in? YOU MEAN HE CREATED A STRAW POLL ON REDDIT ABOUT IT TOO?! I can't believe these sacred esports dollars are going to the tournament organiser instead of the players or the next tournament. My mouth is foaming with outraged-infused saliva right now. I NEED to start an internet argument over this.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
Ladies and gentlemen, Destiny "2014" through and through haha.
What an immature attitude man. I did see something like this coming. You have that kind of personality. Not the kind that commits selfless acts, but the kind that will do whatever it takes for personal gain, without letting the people who funded you know beforehand. And from what you said, you probably don't need "Crowd Funding" at all eh?
Anyway, take no criticism, whine about not getting your way with Kespa (child), take no feedback seriously, get butthurt and argue with everyone, whatever. It doesnt matter. Think its time for you to change a little, for yourself. You're in the public now, not X17, put your "professional" cap on.
Do you even read the bs you write down here, or are you simply blinded by all that salty hate?
Destiny wasn't perfectly clear about where the extra money was going?
Too much to follow, "extra money" means the money he raised from sponsors, not "extra donations", right? Because as i understood it (trying to read through the thread), the "leftover" from indiegogo will go into Destiny II?
edit: funniest thing actually is, that if he wouldn't have shown everybody all the numbers (basically doing it like every business in the world conducts things), none of this would ever be an issue. Kinda makes you wonder if being transparent to that level is acutally healthy. You earn respect of some people, but you also awaken the troll in others, not being able to comprehend simple numbers.
Oh wow. Are you like, 12?
He's right though. If Destiny wouldn't have shown you the numbers, you wouldn't (rather, couldn't) give a shit. I actually think people don't give enough credit to that simple fact.
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
Oh. My. Gawd. Hold the phone. Destiny wasn't perfectly clear about where the extra money was going? You're telling me that after being unsure, he decided he deserved some money himself for time put in? YOU MEAN HE CREATED A STRAW POLL ON REDDIT ABOUT IT TOO?! I can't believe these sacred esports dollars are going to the tournament organiser instead of the players or the next tournament. My mouth is foaming with outraged-infused saliva right now. I NEED to start an internet argument over this.
I really do not get why Destiny is interacting with people who are being simply unreasonable. Everything he did was completely fine, maybe apart from the whole Kespa thing, which seemed a bit off to me, too, but - frankly speaking - I don't give a flying fuck how their interaction went, because the tournament was very fun and the next one, I assume, can only be better.
Destiny is being completely transparent when it comes to the financial side of things and I, for one, hope this trend will continue in the future. If he earns an extra buck or two doing community a service I'm fine with that as well - and anybody who understands how real life actually works will most likely think the same way, because that was pretty fucking obvious from the get-go. Destiny doesn't need to spell it out for people to realize his time is valuable (because everyone's time is) and he deserves to get paid. He didn't cheat anybody doing so either, he kept his word on everything. Grow the fuck up, people.
On August 15 2014 02:35 Crot4le wrote: Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
You don't cite a source/link for this, so I'm just going to assume that he was referring to the Indigogo money, and he has stayed true to that.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
When I was implying you might be a teenager, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Now you've managed to convince me that you're just plain fucking stupid.
Destiny is being completely transparent when it comes to the financial side of things and I, for one, hope this trend will continue in the future. If he earns an extra buck or two doing community a service I'm fine with that as well - and anybody who understand how real life actually works will most likely think the same way, because that was pretty fucking obvious from the get-go.
I think that's one of the biggest issues here. I'm blown away by the weird demands of some people. It really comes down to "do you have a job" yes/no. Any sane person would see that somehow, the effort and time has to be valued.
When I was implying you might be a teenager, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Now you've managed to convince me that you're just plain fucking stupid.
lol, i thought pretty much the same, especially since "i had many jobs!!!!1!" is kinda nothing to be proud about, but rather (if true, which i doubt) that you're fricking awful at what you're doing.
On August 15 2014 03:38 m4ini wrote: I think that's one of the biggest issues here. I'm blown away by the weird demands of some people. It really comes down to "do you have a job" yes/no. Any sane person would see that somehow, the effort and time has to be valued.
I'm really glad I don't have to deal with such people criticizing me on a public forum. I know that the right thing to do is to ignore the people who are less than sane, but I bet it's really, really difficult...
Again, you did a great job overall Destiny, and I appreciate the look into the organization of the event. Looking forward to Destiny II!
On August 15 2014 03:38 m4ini wrote: lol, i thought pretty much the same, especially since "i had many jobs!!!!1!" is kinda nothing to be proud about, but rather (if true, which i doubt) that you're fricking awful at what you're doing.
To be fair, this depends on other things, most notably the time period and the domain of said jobs. 5 different jobs over one year is quite different than over 10. Changing jobs may also be the only way to get a better salary. Or you may be freelancing and counting each project as a separate job.
Or you may be fricking awful at what you're doing, which would explain the incomprehensible ideas about how this works
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
Now the purpose of the thread has changes to a he said, she said thing. Either way destiny you look like a child responding this way to little things. It's kinda silly
This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
On August 15 2014 08:41 3clipse wrote: This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
I said it earlier in the thread, you can't win either way, if you disclose your financials like Destiny did the argument from the community will be "You kept sponsors money for yourself? You're wrong and you're evil"
But if Destiny DIDN'T disclose, I can pretty much bet on here or Reddit the argument would've been made of "We the community funded this tournament, we have a right to know things. You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why the outsiders say the SC scene is dying
On August 15 2014 08:41 3clipse wrote: This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
I said it earlier in the thread, you can't win either way, if you disclose your financials like Destiny did the argument from the community will be "You kept sponsors money for yourself? You're wrong and you're evil"
But if Destiny DIDN'T disclose, I can pretty much bet on here or Reddit the argument would've been made of "We the community funded this tournament, we have a right to know things. You're wrong and you're evil"
And people wonder why the outsiders say the SC scene is dying
Yea... if not the SC scene I think this thread is dead. It's just a bunch of people trying to troll others with hearsay (rather than posting primary denouements) into believing they're right.
On August 15 2014 08:41 3clipse wrote: This is one of the reasons there isn't more transparency in society- because people will try to find some scandal or something to be outraged about even when there isn't anything.
If I were running a tournament like this, would I be this transparent with my finances? After seeing this thread, probably not. I would just quietly pocket my profit rather than expose myself to a tidal wave of idiots who expect that anyone doing something for the esports community should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart and working 60 hours a week at McDonalds to make ends meet.
Props to Destiny for putting on a great tournament and being open about the financials.
I said it earlier in the thread, you can't win either way, if you disclose your financials like Destiny did the argument from the community will be "You kept sponsors money for yourself? You're wrong and you're evil"
And those are the people you know you can safely ignore for the rest of your life. The kind of people that just expect someone to do all this work for nothing, simply to amuse them.
Anyway, nice write up, especially the bit at the end. I don't think people realize just how much fucking work it takes to organize and then run a tournament, even a "relatively" small one like yours. Especially when you are the one doing ALL of the heavy lifting.
I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
Now the purpose of the thread has changes to a he said, she said thing. Either way destiny you look like a child responding this way to little things. It's kinda silly
I disagree. It looks to me like he's just becoming exasperated explaining everything for the fucking millionth time to people who are too busy whining to try and understand what Destiny actually planned and said and did. He was as transparent and straightforward as possible, and a few people (fortunately just a vocal minority) are still hating on him because they just don't pay any attention. In particular, Crot4le and LeeJohnDong are just being ignorant jerks.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
People don't know the difference between transparency and disclosing private discourse between businesses.
Posting private emails isn't being transparent. Destiny stated all the reasons why he wanted KESPA players to play (being transparent) all he had to say was that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability (somewhat true) or just that they declined.
Being transparent is stating why you are doing what you are doing not airing out your laundry.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote: I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players.
what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure?
His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience.
Hi.
I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings.
My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons.
Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well.
The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me.
So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
Boom goes the dynamite!
There's nothing I can disagree with here. I'm sure Destiny and KeSPa will figure something out. Destiny I was pretty successful by all accounts, but it may also just not be KeSPA's cup of tea. I think the tourney is still pretty good personally even without KeSPA participation.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the posting of that email. We need to stop doing that sort of things in esports, as it is hilariously unprofessional. There is definitely such a thing as too much transparency.
It wasn't under NDA.
Destiny have done nothing wrong.
I didn't say he did anything illegal, I just said it was very unprofessional to post emails like that publicly. It just sets a really bad tone, especially with someone you're trying to start a business relationship with. Life is a lot more than just whether something is against the law or not.
I mean, just look at the response he got from his KeSPA contact...
edit: Sorry, that's the last I'll say about it. This is detracting from the conversation on the overall great success of the tournament.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
On August 15 2014 12:01 TeslasPigeon wrote: People don't know the difference between transparency and disclosing private discourse between businesses.
Posting private emails isn't being transparent. Destiny stated all the reasons why he wanted KESPA players to play (being transparent) all he had to say was that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability (somewhat true) or just that they declined.
Being transparent is stating why you are doing what you are doing not airing out your laundry.
It wasn't laundry, it wasn't a private discourse (a private discourse between businesses can be identified by the NDA that accompanies it) and it was not enough to simply say "that KESPA declined because he was an unknown reliability" (which he did, even before the tournament).
Oh and being transparent means being *transparent*, by giving proofs and details for everything, so that nothing is left in doubt. That's precisely what he did.
Do you think the people who find a way to bitch over the few bucks he made would not have bitched about the lack of transparency about this? He chose to be transparent, so the bitching is about this. And I hope he keeps doing the same. As far as I'm concerned, he (mostly) single-handedly put up one of the most entertaining tournaments in a *long* time, and he should be thanked and congratulated. Not flamed for details that are only vaguely wrong from some particular, and not necessarily well informed, points of view.
It might have ruffled the feathers of some politically-correct zealots, and that's a fight you can't win, but most are probably just bitching for the sake of bitching. And that's also a fight you can't win. Just ignore.
I was never a fan of 2010 to 2012 destiny I can say that honestly. I even meet him when I was casting a tournament during that time and wasn't impressed with how unapproachable he seemed at the time.
That said, I've been impressed with how he's handled himself over the last say year or so of time. If he took the time to create organize and cast a tournament as he did, I'd estimate he probably sunk something closer to a months work of normal work days into it (at least). Everything that goes into a tournament doesn't happen by osmosis. It requires contacting a lot of people to do a lot of things, managing all the cogs of that machine, and making it all come together come show time to work properly. Which is also a lot of risk as he was the brand that would sink or float on the failure or success of the tournament. If he took home 2 or 3 grand for it all at the end it would probably just barely justify the time cost put into it.
On August 13 2014 17:58 -Archangel- wrote: For a guy that wants to do crowdfunding in the future, you really should not talk to the "crowd" in such a way.
I'm not addressing "the crowd", though.
If someone honestly thinks my communications with KeSPA have been horribly disrespectful and that I'm completely in the wrong, I doubt they'd contribute in the future anyway, no?
I don't think I've said anything especially egregious in this thread towards any parties, regardless.
I think that it would be foolish to close the door to KeSPA forever, and I think your tournament was successful enough that you can thrive without them (especially if we see more EU - US rivalry). Perhaps let Destiny 2 play out, as you've already said on Chanman, and see if the support is really there and then use that as leverage to culminate in a fantastic D3 with some KeSPA players to really blow up the tourny!
On August 15 2014 01:29 Crot4le wrote: All it comes down to is people thinking that this was a community tournament not a for-profit tournament. That's all. At the end of the day it was a good event, I enjoyed it and it was well-run so that's enough for most people including me. But next time you should be more clear about these things before the event because you can see why questions are being asked.
If you didn't assume he was going to keep the money from sponsorships, then you simply don't know how the world works, plain and simple.
Here's a life lesson for you: if someone does not SPECIFICALLY SAY that they will funnel ALL proceeds from ALL sources of income back towards the community/future events, then it is IMPLIED that they will keep that money for themselves. Where else would the money go? There is nothing dishonest about that. Maybe if you're a teenager or pre-teen who's never had a job or had any business dealings, you wouldn't understand this, so may as well learn it now.
Apart from the fact Destiny DID imply that extra money would go back to the community when he said on Reddit that he was unsure whether to put surplus money into the prize pool or towards Destiny II, I believe he even made a straw poll about it.
Oh and I'm not a teenager and I have had many jobs and done business dealings so yeah, there's that, so you can quit your "you have a different opinion so I'm just gonna pretend you're some random teenager on t'internet".
I never implied any extra money would go back to the community, I said extra money raised FROM THE INDIEGOGO would go into the next tournament,
Please show me where I said I would go out of my way to secure sponsorships for the next tournament and keep nothing for myself. WHY WOULD I EVER LIE ABOUT THAT KNOWING I WAS GOING TO DO A WRITE-UP LIKE THIS AT THE END. LOL?
Now the purpose of the thread has changes to a he said, she said thing. Either way destiny you look like a child responding this way to little things. It's kinda silly
Now aren't we all silly here doing silly things such as responding to other's silly comments.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1g800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
Don't worry, I don't like myself either.
And I guess it's not paranoia if people are really out to get you? I can understand being sensitive if every 10th message you get is psychopathic, even if from the community's perspective it's a tiny minority. Though I did feel some exasperation after destiny's endless off-hand comments on unfiltered about people thinking he stole the money and scammed the community, even if no one serious feels that way.
On August 15 2014 09:43 DamageControL wrote: I understand why people are annoyed by the $1800 in take home pay. I disagree with them strongly, however. People deserve to be compensated for the administration of tournaments and honestly anything less is extremely unsustainable. If you think it's really ridiculous, try the crowdfunding model out yourself! Negotiate with sponsors, raise money with the brand you've built over the years--after all it's easy money.
I think all it takes is for one person to say "destiny stole 1800 bucks!!1" to set off people like TB & Destiny into endless self-pity and paranoia. I've read all of this thread and I can't even recall reading anyone being actually against Destiny's reimbursement or expressing unwanted vitriol. Yet on every page there are people talking about "omg can't believe people are against destiny making money, they must be teenagers without jobs". And actually, people who merely ask critical questions without exercising judgement (i.e. the point of transparency to begin with) are grouped with the essentially non-existent detractors and are demonized. it's really a bit dubious and Destiny's attitude in this thread is honestly disappointing, if understandable.
I have no pity for myself nor am I paranoid. I know that a lot of you suck for a fact and that you don't deserve me
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
There's too many organizations that started reporting how well they are doing and all the "growth" they had right before they went under. I'd be slightly more careful about what I say if I were you.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
There's too many organizations that started reporting how well they are doing and all the "growth" they had right before they went under. I'd be slightly more careful about what I say if I were you.
I'm sure Chud is really worried about jinxing Proleague from posting on TL. Maybe if he posted that it's doing badly, karma would triple the viewership instead.
I cannot wait for Destiny II. I do not have a problems with destiny paying himself some $$$$ since it was his tournament.
As for Kespa, I do not care if Koreans participate in the tournament or not. I want the prize money to go to the NA players to help grow esports in NA.
On August 14 2014 20:15 jcroisdale wrote: fuck kespa in there arrogant asses
User was warned for this post
kespa has taken over the forum confirmed
Yep, obviously this genius post reflects the community dialogue. Spewing out a mendacious and incoherent power stammer really helps our opinion of you, troll.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
Yes, not a StarCraft event but I have organised things which take a fuck of a lot of work. Mainly kids camps which require sorting out transportation, program planning, getting out medical forms, making a menu for the week, writing a risk assessment (which can be up to 20-40 pages), sorting out kit/equipment and that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yet comments on here (not TheDraken to be fair, he only said several days) are talking about this taking up to a week or month to organise. I'm sorry but that's way off. Granted you can't just snap your fingers and it's done but people are massively overestimating/exaggerating the work it takes to organise an online StarCraft tournament.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
Yes, not a StarCraft event but I have organised things which take a fuck of a lot of work. Mainly kids camps which require sorting out transportation, program planning, getting out medical forms, making a menu for the week, writing a risk assessment (which can be up to 20-40 pages), sorting out kit/equipment and that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yet comments on here (not TheDraken to be fair, he only said several days) are talking about this taking up to a week or month to organise. I'm sorry but that's way off. Granted you can't just snap your fingers and it's done but people are massively overestimating/exaggerating the work it takes to organise an online StarCraft tournament.
The fact that you have organized other things does not make you an authority on Starcraft tournament organization. In terms of actual hours, organizing Destiny I may not have taken a week, but in between getting in contact with casters and players as well as setting up the things required to run the tournament, I find it absurd that you think it'd take anywhere near 24 hours.
Why would all the best players have to join this small tournament... especially when it's crowd funded and the organizer pockets the sponsor money himself...
The Kespa mail is 100% correct... Destiny just wanted them so he could pocket even more sponsor money.
On August 18 2014 01:35 Technique wrote: Why would all the best players have to join this small tournament... especially when it's crowd funded and the organizer pockets the sponsor money himself...
The Kespa mail is 100% correct... Destiny just wanted them so he could pocket even more sponsor money.
Who would lose something if Kespa did allow their players to participate? The players wouldn't lose anything (except time), Kespa wouldn't lose anything. It is literally a win-win. Kespa-Players have the opportunity to earn some money, Destiny might have earned a little more, we would have had even better games.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
Yes, not a StarCraft event but I have organised things which take a fuck of a lot of work. Mainly kids camps which require sorting out transportation, program planning, getting out medical forms, making a menu for the week, writing a risk assessment (which can be up to 20-40 pages), sorting out kit/equipment and that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yet comments on here (not TheDraken to be fair, he only said several days) are talking about this taking up to a week or month to organise. I'm sorry but that's way off. Granted you can't just snap your fingers and it's done but people are massively overestimating/exaggerating the work it takes to organise an online StarCraft tournament.
The fact that you have organized other things does not make you an authority on Starcraft tournament organization. In terms of actual hours, organizing Destiny I may not have taken a week, but in between getting in contact with casters and players as well as setting up the things required to run the tournament, I find it absurd that you think it'd take anywhere near 24 hours.
I'd say that organizing a starcraft online tournament is less logistics but more communication. And communication can be a freakin' pain in the ass, especially with language barriers, different time zones and a helluva lot casters. If you go simply after time spent on actual work (i.e. speaking, chatting etc in this case) I'd still say you're over 24 hours spent, and if you take the waiting, the unsurety/unsureness (does that word exist in english?), nerves and graphical work into account.. no way that's a day's work only.
On August 18 2014 02:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: whats wrong with making money anyways?
Because many people here thinks that this is a "game" and its only for "shits and giggles" instead of being professional.
This is why "esport" isn't being taken seriously, its because of many people on this thread thinking that everything is done freely instead of thinking about longevity.
I think the KeSPA response was perfectly reasonable. This Destiny tournament project was entirely untested, being run by a fellow with little to no tournament organization experience, with no noteworthy corporate backing.
We are talking about a well-established organization with corporate sponsorships like Samsung, SKT, KT, Jin Air, etc. It would have been irresponsible for them to jump into what was essentially a gigantic, foreign-run question mark. It's highly unsurprising that they requested to see good results and a stable platform instead of risking their sponsors' reputations so flippantly.
You'd be much better off bringing in the KeSPA powerhouse now that you've proven your competence, rather than shooting yourself in the foot because you wanted them to blindly trust you instead of making a sound business decision on their part.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
Yes, not a StarCraft event but I have organised things which take a fuck of a lot of work. Mainly kids camps which require sorting out transportation, program planning, getting out medical forms, making a menu for the week, writing a risk assessment (which can be up to 20-40 pages), sorting out kit/equipment and that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yet comments on here (not TheDraken to be fair, he only said several days) are talking about this taking up to a week or month to organise. I'm sorry but that's way off. Granted you can't just snap your fingers and it's done but people are massively overestimating/exaggerating the work it takes to organise an online StarCraft tournament.
The fact that you have organized other things does not make you an authority on Starcraft tournament organization. In terms of actual hours, organizing Destiny I may not have taken a week, but in between getting in contact with casters and players as well as setting up the things required to run the tournament, I find it absurd that you think it'd take anywhere near 24 hours.
I'd say that organizing a starcraft online tournament is less logistics but more communication. And communication can be a freakin' pain in the ass, especially with language barriers, different time zones and a helluva lot casters. If you go simply after time spent on actual work (i.e. speaking, chatting etc in this case) I'd still say you're over 24 hours spent, and if you take the waiting, the unsurety/unsureness (does that word exist in english?), nerves and graphical work into account.. no way that's a day's work only.
Poor phrasing on my part, I meant that it's silly to assume it wouldn't take a lot more than 24 hours
On August 18 2014 01:35 Technique wrote: Why would all the best players have to join this small tournament... especially when it's crowd funded and the organizer pockets the sponsor money himself...
The Kespa mail is 100% correct... Destiny just wanted them so he could pocket even more sponsor money.
Who would lose something if Kespa did allow their players to participate? The players wouldn't lose anything (except time), Kespa wouldn't lose anything. It is literally a win-win. Kespa-Players have the opportunity to earn some money, Destiny might have earned a little more, we would have had even better games.
Over saturation. Would make their players attending tournaments be less special... hence potential loss in viewers on the tournaments that are more important to them.
On August 18 2014 02:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: whats wrong with making money anyways?
Because many people here thinks that this is a "game" and its only for "shits and giggles" instead of being professional.
This is why "esport" isn't being taken seriously, its because of many people on this thread thinking that everything is done freely instead of thinking about longevity.
Making money is fine... but taking all the sponsorship money from a crowd funded tournament seems shady to me. It's also not like he took a risk investing in a tournament which then becomes a success and earns him some money.
Also at the end of the day it's Kespas decision... And posting a private email because you didn't get your way is very unprofessional as well.
Saying there was no risk to holding the tournament isn't true, if he hadn't secured any sponsors he wouldn't have any compensation for the time he put in, and if the tournament had been a disaster (poor production, delays, walkovers, low viewer numbers), it would have damaged his reputation and his chances of effectively holding further tournaments.
On August 18 2014 01:35 Technique wrote: Why would all the best players have to join this small tournament... especially when it's crowd funded and the organizer pockets the sponsor money himself...
The Kespa mail is 100% correct... Destiny just wanted them so he could pocket even more sponsor money.
Who would lose something if Kespa did allow their players to participate? The players wouldn't lose anything (except time), Kespa wouldn't lose anything. It is literally a win-win. Kespa-Players have the opportunity to earn some money, Destiny might have earned a little more, we would have had even better games.
Over saturation. Would make their players attending tournaments be less special... hence potential loss in viewers on the tournaments that are more important to them.
On August 18 2014 02:03 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: whats wrong with making money anyways?
Because many people here thinks that this is a "game" and its only for "shits and giggles" instead of being professional.
This is why "esport" isn't being taken seriously, its because of many people on this thread thinking that everything is done freely instead of thinking about longevity.
Making money is fine... but taking all the sponsorship money from a crowd funded tournament seems shady to me. It's also not like he took a risk investing in a tournament which then becomes a success and earns him some money.
Also at the end of the day it's Kespas decision... And posting a private email because you didn't get your way is very unprofessional as well.
It wasn't under NDA, he didn't do anything wrong.
As far as I'm concerned, he made 1.8k from his stream.
Those guys that have gave him money are perfectly knowledgeable that he might either pocket the money or put it in the next tourney (he said it multiple of times on Unfiltered).
Great to see how everything broke down and what you are feeling.
On the Kespa note. I think for the next even you should invite only 1 maybe 2 kespa players and see what kind of impact those players actually have on the viewership. Then you can decide if they are really worth it for your tournament.
On August 18 2014 04:53 yawnoC wrote: Great to see how everything broke down and what you are feeling.
On the Kespa note. I think for the next even you should invite only 1 maybe 2 kespa players and see what kind of impact those players actually have on the viewership. Then you can decide if they are really worth it for your tournament.
Destiny said that he isn't inviting Kespa players period.
I like the "2014 Destiny". Whenever I heard destiny actually get into genuine debates on SC2 strategy or balance, I was always impressed. Then when I heard him elsewhere, I really didn't like him.
This is an awesome turn around, and I love the transparency going on. Also - 6 days of casting for ~$1800 is not exactly world shattering (sure, if you got it every day for 365 days a year it would be good, but that is not how an "event driven" career works) - I'd say actually that you just forgot to pay yourself for the preparation Destiny!
On the kespa front - if every competition had all the Kespa players, it would just look like every other competition...
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
I don't care if I get warned or banned for this, but your post is completely laughable. I just don't see you having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Have you ever organized some kind of event?
Yes, not a StarCraft event but I have organised things which take a fuck of a lot of work. Mainly kids camps which require sorting out transportation, program planning, getting out medical forms, making a menu for the week, writing a risk assessment (which can be up to 20-40 pages), sorting out kit/equipment and that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yet comments on here (not TheDraken to be fair, he only said several days) are talking about this taking up to a week or month to organise. I'm sorry but that's way off. Granted you can't just snap your fingers and it's done but people are massively overestimating/exaggerating the work it takes to organise an online StarCraft tournament.
Your figures as already pointed out are grossly off. This coming from someone who has actually organized SCII tournaments mind you. I personally just helping with a few that I organized, can say it takes a lot of work.
Lead time up to the event where anyone could sign up (meaning no need to talk to players before hand) was at least a weeks worth of work. Slightly sooner if you consider putting together advertising for said tournament.
You have a plethora of things to put into place, you have to figure out timing, coordinate that so you try not to overlap other tournaments. You have to put together other commentators, you need to make sure you have needed graphics in the case of dealing with sponsors. You have to get all of the broadcast things setup and put correctly into place, make sure they work etc before the day of. You add in talking to players to get them on board for invitations, deal with any concerns the players have etc. You could be easily spending at minimum 3 to 4 hours a day all the way up to a tournament just dealing with people and making sure everything is moving at a pace to be ready for tournament day.
In the case of a tournament like he ran, he did invitations, which means dealing with all his invited players, then finding and contacting and dealing with any that said no that he had to replace. Talking to what small amount of sponsors he had to sell the product to them, along with deal with any worries or needs they may have had. Then there is the whole deal of setting up and keeping track of the donation end. Getting a hold of someone to do all the art work, then making sure it looks right. Setting up a broadcast interface and making sure whoever was going to broadcast and cast had those things. Deciding small things from the start such as how to run the tournament, what will make players happy, what will make viewers happy. Talking to all those people up to the onset of the tournament to make sure everything would in theory go off without a hitch.
Then by the time you get to day of the work isn't done just because you're going to commentate. You still have to make sure the internet works so you can broadcast, you have to make sure your interfaces work properly. You have to have a clue about the players your casting to talk intelligently about the players. Then still work with players and commentators and any admins during all this to make sure the tournament progresses along as planned.
I've done these for little to no pay, I quit doing them why? Because even doing largely commentary it's all a crap load of work I could of spent at a job job, and gotten 100% more appreciation and financial pay out for all the work put in. I work a normal job make around 1500 bucks for 2 weeks worth of work and have little to no responsibility for anything outside of when I'm physically there. If you'd think his take home of 1800 wasn't justified when his future in being able to do these is at stake and the time that went into producing it...then you are the exact type of people who prevent anything in regards to esports to becoming any kind of a practical work path and anything more then a passion project for all future people to come.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
Right because everyone would have been totally set to go if he just messaged the players, co-casters, and sponsors and told them "hey i'm having this tournament in a couple days, so please show up."
He has to talk to the players and make sure they are available for the tournament. He has to address individual concerns/conflicts (which there always are). He has to talk to possible co-casters and ask them if they're available. He has to negotiate with sponsors about money, branding, plugging, and answer any of their concerns about the tournament. He has to design artwork and develop templates for his stream. He has to create playlists for the intermissions. He has to create the brackets and determine which matches will be played when. He has to advertise for his tournament. That doesn't even account for the time you have to devote to idea generation, which will often require multiple changes before you arrive at the best plan and structure for the tournament.
You can't just do that all in one day. People don't respond immediately to messages. Sponsors tell you "I'll have to run this by management first". People ask what other people are doing before agreeing to stuff. Other people will bail on you.
To say that all that is a day's worth of work is ridiculous.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
Right because everyone would have been totally set to go if he just messaged the players, co-casters, and sponsors and told them "hey i'm having this tournament in a couple days, so please show up."
He has to talk to the players and make sure they are available for the tournament. He has to address individual concerns/conflicts (which there always are). He has to talk to possible co-casters and ask them if they're available. He has to negotiate with sponsors about money, branding, plugging, and answer any of their concerns about the tournament. He has to design artwork and develop templates for his stream. He has to create playlists for the intermissions. He has to create the brackets and determine which matches will be played when. He has to advertise for his tournament. That doesn't even account for the time you have to devote to idea generation, which will often require multiple changes before you arrive at the best plan and structure for the tournament.
You can't just do that all in one day. People don't respond immediately to messages. Sponsors tell you "I'll have to run this by management first". People ask what other people are doing before agreeing to stuff. Other people will bail on you.
To say that all that is a day's worth of work is ridiculous.
Not saying that I agree with the guy you quoted, but as far as I know, he was approached by the sponsors and not vice versa, so I doubt that he spend as much time with the sponsors as you normally would. Also, he had somebody helping him out with the artwork and an admin, though I think the administrative duties were restricted to the playdays.
On August 18 2014 04:53 yawnoC wrote: Great to see how everything broke down and what you are feeling.
On the Kespa note. I think for the next even you should invite only 1 maybe 2 kespa players and see what kind of impact those players actually have on the viewership. Then you can decide if they are really worth it for your tournament.
Destiny said that he isn't inviting Kespa players period.
And I think that's fair enough.
That's not what he said on Unfiltered. He said he would most likely go to the same teams for Destiny II and consider Kespa in the future. Destiny is a smart guy. He's not closing any doors.
On August 18 2014 04:53 yawnoC wrote: Great to see how everything broke down and what you are feeling.
On the Kespa note. I think for the next even you should invite only 1 maybe 2 kespa players and see what kind of impact those players actually have on the viewership. Then you can decide if they are really worth it for your tournament.
Destiny said that he isn't inviting Kespa players period.
And I think that's fair enough.
That's not what he said on Unfiltered. He said he would most likely go to the same teams for Destiny II and consider Kespa in the future. Destiny is a smart guy. He's not closing any doors.
Didn't he say that he is also considering to just invite 1 or 2 (most likely the top two finishers of Destiny I) and let the rest qualify through ladder? That would be awesome, in my opinion! :D
I stopped watching WCS so I could watch your tournament, it was by far more entertaining (to me at least), and the games were good as well. You and InControl I think was my favorite casting duo, the tangents you guys went on were spectacular and got me laughing quite a bit. Great job Destiny! Keep it up! I hope you make a Destiny 2!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your no spoiler naming system on Youtube, fucking hell that was refreshing to not have to constantly put my hand up to block areas of my screen so I didn't see if there were 2 matches or 3 matches in a best of 3, etc.
LOVE the transparency you've had throughout, having someone tell you exactly where money is going, and allow the community to cast their vote on changes that you are thinking about making feels so damn good. Makes me have absolute confidence in you and your tournament.
Only critique I have is about the production, as in the delays in starting the matches etc. But I know you'll figure those out and it's just a learning experience/shit that'll happen from time to time, so meh, more a "nudge nudge" then a critique.
On August 15 2014 00:01 KanoCoke wrote: "WE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE SPONSORSHIP MONEY BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES THAT ALLOWED FOR IT TO HAPPEN!" is a deluded opinion that entitled people who likely didn't even contribute to the Indiegogo have. It wasn't you guys that made the sponsors want to get on-board with Destiny. Destiny himself was as much of a factor as the actual donators.
Seriously, this thread is filled with nutjobs.
Dude. Seriously. Just read the thread. I didnt donate, as I hate his attitude as a person and I kinda seen something like this coming. I mean, from his past and reputation, do you honestly think he didnt do this just to make money?? meh.. Deluded is thinking this was a selfless act to "save e-sports" and not for personal gain. I'm glad at least one person sees that here.
Peace
You've had some of the funniest posts in this thread, just FYI.
"I seen something like this coming"...seen something like what coming? Me 100% fulfilling my promise that I would use 100% of the funds raised from the Indiegogo to pay for the tournament? Because I did.
Also the argument that "he got sponsorships off the back of the Indiegogo" lol wat..? I would have gotten sponsorships regardless, they didn't ask me how the fucking Indiegogo was doing. What if I did a $5,000 tournament with 0 crowd funding and got $10,000 in sponsorships? Would it suddenly be okay for me to keep $5k extra?
What if I did a crowd funded tournament and got more subscribers or personal donations or viewers or something "because of the crowd funding"? Should I forward all of that money "back to the community"?
Also, please, grow the fuck up. I know being 17 years old and jobless is cool and all, but stop demonizing people who want to make some fucking money. Did I want to make money during this tournament? Yeah, of course, otherwise it's not worth (in a monetary sense) my time, I have to be compensated if you ever want me to put on tournaments like this. Grow the fuck up.
You are never going to convince these people, but you probably already know most of us feel you are very much entitled to that money, and probably should've deserved more. Just leave this topic be, what needs to be said already has, and set focus on Destiny 2
lol seriously. i totally would have been okay with destiny making 3x as much as he did off the tournament. for several days of preparation and 6 days of actual tournament casting, $1800 is a pretty humble take home pay.
people who rage about what he earned clearly don't pay their own bills.
Oh puh-lease. People keep talking about how this tournament is several days preparation. I just don't see how it could take 24 hours to organise.
Right because everyone would have been totally set to go if he just messaged the players, co-casters, and sponsors and told them "hey i'm having this tournament in a couple days, so please show up."
He has to talk to the players and make sure they are available for the tournament. He has to address individual concerns/conflicts (which there always are). He has to talk to possible co-casters and ask them if they're available. He has to negotiate with sponsors about money, branding, plugging, and answer any of their concerns about the tournament. He has to design artwork and develop templates for his stream. He has to create playlists for the intermissions. He has to create the brackets and determine which matches will be played when. He has to advertise for his tournament. That doesn't even account for the time you have to devote to idea generation, which will often require multiple changes before you arrive at the best plan and structure for the tournament.
You can't just do that all in one day. People don't respond immediately to messages. Sponsors tell you "I'll have to run this by management first". People ask what other people are doing before agreeing to stuff. Other people will bail on you.
To say that all that is a day's worth of work is ridiculous.
Not saying that I agree with the guy you quoted, but as far as I know, he was approached by the sponsors and not vice versa, so I doubt that he spend as much time with the sponsors as you normally would. Also, he had somebody helping him out with the artwork and an admin, though I think the administrative duties were restricted to the playdays.
Agree 100% with Crot4le. Way over exaggerated workload, liasing with players and messing around with graphics and shit. I mean he would be sitting there on his computer anyway.. It's hardly "hard work". And, he had help? I wonder how much of that 1800 he shared with them. + Show Spoiler +
On August 18 2014 04:53 yawnoC wrote: Great to see how everything broke down and what you are feeling.
On the Kespa note. I think for the next even you should invite only 1 maybe 2 kespa players and see what kind of impact those players actually have on the viewership. Then you can decide if they are really worth it for your tournament.
Destiny said that he isn't inviting Kespa players period.
And I think that's fair enough.
That's not what he said on Unfiltered. He said he would most likely go to the same teams for Destiny II and consider Kespa in the future. Destiny is a smart guy. He's not closing any doors.
Didn't he say that he is also considering to just invite 1 or 2 (most likely the top two finishers of Destiny I) and let the rest qualify through ladder? That would be awesome, in my opinion! :D
Yeah some invites and some from ladder just like Destiny I. If you ask me, the ladder invites are genius. More tournaments need to do this. What better place to find deserving invites than the top of the ladder. Imagine a Korean tournament with the top 5 from ladder invited. Talk about epic.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q0FjykF.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p7hr0Uy.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y1myyvO.jpg)
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