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Lu_e
United States95 Posts
I think KeSPA was just protecting their players more than anything. Think of them spending their time/resources, (however minuscule) to "send" their players your way and having it be a worst case scenario (major stream or organizational/time management problems etc). They would probably be a little annoyed and don't have a tolerance for things like that methinks. Well done though, was fun to watch. | ||
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
While it is understandable for Kespa to regulate its players and "protect" the interests of teams and Korean sponsors, I have the feeling that the entire Kespa system, although effective in producing top tire pro players and works in Korean, is not quite to the taste of communities nowadays. And why transparency is bad? Sure you can avoid criticism by shrouding yourself in a mist and still run a good event, but I do believe more transparency is good for the communities in the long run. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote: While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams? What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all. This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it. If I'm mistaken then please correct me! | ||
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
On August 12 2014 11:31 Destiny wrote: It was an e-mail sent while representing a large organization. You want to talk "professionalism"..? Do you really think any e-mail sent on behalf of one business to another is EVER expected to stay private? Do you even understand why NDA's exist? If you're this pants-on-head retarded, why the fuck would you waste someone's time responding to them in a public forum? People online do this very often, they have a private conversation, there is a conflict and they take it public to raise a mob, to win the favour of the public. You can see it in politics, two guys giving public statements to the press, sending jabs at each other instead of picking up a phone and having an adult conversation. So yes, by posting the email publicly you’re forcing the other party to respond publicly to save their image. Be the better person and ask for the B teamers if you really want them involved. | ||
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
On August 12 2014 11:48 jellyjello wrote: Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency. If I could upvote this, I would x) | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
I would definitely support not bothering to invite their playes to the next tournament because it's apparent that their goals don't align with yours, or the growth of the scene in general. But they'll surely make you out to be the bad guy should you do it, so i'm unsure if it's worth taking a stand. At least Destiny is putting in a bit of effort in improving his image, credit there dude. GL with D2~! | ||
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
On August 12 2014 16:24 Plexa wrote: While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams? While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all. This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it. If I'm mistaken then please correct me! That's probably the general problem, KeSPA is sponsors first, teams and players second - just look at the team names. In this case it's a bit risky venture but players would definitely benefit, not to mention that it's just 8 invites, all you need to do is send one or two players. And I definitely agree with the previous sentiment that Korea needs more support since GSL got stripped to three seasons. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Furthermore, perhaps Destiny should think about catering to the Korean audience. | ||
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KimJongIlJr
Korea (North)61 Posts
I think it's just culture differences that give the perception of the Kespa representative being rude or immature. In business, they don't beat around the bush. Just an observation. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3804 Posts
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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OgerGolg
Germany65 Posts
And yes people may like KeSPA or not. There are good arguments to call them mafia. But the point in this discussion is, that someone had interests and the other guy had different interests and they haven't matched. So next time, try to match them and don't stir up the issue. I hope your very good tournament and work will not be influence too much by this discussion and you have learned something. | ||
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tokinho
United States785 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + KeSPA I was pretty disappointed with my interactions with KeSPA. Having their players for my tournament would have been a large bolster for viewership and support. It also could have lead to some potentially amazing games for me to cast as well. I'm trying to be very careful here in how I proceed with this because "2014 Destiny" is a Destiny who tries to maintain good relationships with every section of the community. If this was "2011/2012 Destiny", though, I would be absolutely roasting KeSPA for my interactions with them for this tournament. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p7hr0Uy.png) Courtesy of Chuddinater, my KeSPA contact This first tournament that I did had a decent amount of risk associated with it. I heavily integrated everything into my own brand, so if the tournament itself was a disaster it would reflect very poorly on me and I would have no one to shift the blame onto. I also crowd funded a majority of the event finances, so squandering the community's money would mean I'd have a hard time raising money for a second time and I'd also damage my reputation significantly in the community. For KeSPA to deny their players the ability to enter into an online tournament where they could potentially win money seems...strange, to me. I understand I have something to benefit here from using KeSPA players, but it's not like KeSPA was taking on any risk by having their players play in my event. If anything, it's just denying their players the ability to earn some extra money, something every gamer at a high level would like the opportunity to do. I also don't like that KeSPA expected me to take on 100% of the risk for the first tournament and then contact them later for a second of third one. If I take on all of the risk in producing and hosting the first tournament, without any help whatsoever from them, why would I let them into the next one...? It might come off as petty to some, but it seems a bit arrogant to tell someone you'll hop on board a project after they've laid out the entire framework themselves. I still have a lot of thinking to do on whether or not I'd want to bring KeSPA players into my next event. Pros
Cons
Going forward
Polling Mr. Bonnell, Please cordially invite kespa again. I feel that it would be a small injustice to not offer kespa the chance to participate again. The reply by kespa seemed that they were a little worried that one of your sponsors also sponsored their players and did not want to offend either you or them. Something to consider- Capitalism is very different than asian systems. First off Kespa is an asian organization. Asian communities have a philosophy built into their languages. For example, in general, taking risks is considered bad. You can offend someone you need later on in life so you want to be careful. When i read your discussion with kespa i felt your statements did not reflect the difference in philosophy. Your statements like I don't understand why they wouldn't want their players to have more money. This is a capitalist point of view. Since kespa is an asian organization, that probably isn't the way the perceive things. I would argue, asian organizations do not work that way. A small bit of bad publicity could completely ruin their reputation and permanently keep one of their sponsors from helping their teams. In the worst case, one player gets 1600 or even 800 dollars, but by chance the negative publicity from some detail loses them a sponsor. The idea that an entire team(not individual) fails is a big risk to them. They have no clear reference on how you organize things, and you didn't at the time have an inside reference that was close enough philosophically for them. For the second tournament, now you have good references particularly from acer staff and innovation. (The other challenge is how to help the koreans so they do not stay up until 4 am.) I definitely would not view the kespa response as negative or a display of non-interest. ----------------------------- The Innovation incident handling- In your tournament you only had 1 korean player who had other matches that he was juggling. Like when you were flexible and had patreus and adnominus play before innovation. This was handled extremely well given the circumstances. In contrast, Imagine the players being put in a situation like innovation did where he had other matches to prepare for and play and you did not accommodate for him. In some tournaments, he would be disqualified and rumors circulate. Even some publicity would come out that the players didn't want to play or rumors which weren't true. Information would circulate on the korean gaming websites like PlayXp. This would be considered in the asian community a gesture. Its an implied choice not to play since the other tournament was more important. This could be considered an offense to you, but they want to be more careful so that they do not offend you because they do not know who you are or your sponsors. ------------------------------- I think is would be an injustice to not give the gesture of offering the kespa players a chance to participate. Even though I prefer to have a some non-kespa players in the finals like drg, impact, super, innovation, huk, etc. If you discuss again, understanding asian risk assessment, I would suggest to request innovation and his coaches as a reference for the next tournament, as well as a bit of discussion of how to accommodate their players will definitely help both face time of the koreans in the foreign scene as well as giving the opportunity to win to the largest player base possible. Even without the kespa players I think you'll get similar viewership to be honest. Thanks | ||
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Pittski
United States50 Posts
blah, I am just going to go back to the tournament itself. I usually would have watched it, I watch most tournaments but had some personal issues come up. That said I still read through the first post, and believe everything is really well constructed based off one person doing it. My natural thought going forward would be the relief of the first one being successful, and puts a lot out of the way for hosting a second one. With the amount of viewers, and it generating a eye around the Sc2 community naturally I would think sponsors would be much more approving of hopping on board. I also think how ever you earn your money should be something that you focus on for all your work. Personally I don't feel anyone should have the right to complain about how much someone makes that isn't a CEO of a company like a Panera's, or something, which they are self absorbed, and only care about them selves. I feel this country is heading towards another civil war anyways(I won't even get started on that.), so last thing people should do is attack you for how much you make. I kinda of feel this is like a Homestory cup in the making, except all done online. One suggestion, which I feel is pretty unrealistic, but I am going to mention it anyways. The advertisement starts it is like a movie intro deep voice mumble mumble about they were enemies and this one time only they will come together for you guys. *BOOM* Idra/Destiny Casting in the same room. Only on Destiny II! *Viewers skyrocket* Using negatives to make a positive. Ok, I am done ranting, this no name is going back in his cave for another few months or so. lol | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I get that it gives more chances for the player to win money but it also requires their time, effort and KeSPA's involvement/proceedings. In Street Fighter, if you want Daigo to play in your show or competition, you have to book him 4 weeks in advance and there may be an appearance fee (for X amount). That's just how it is, he is very much in demand and you have to justify his appearance with more than just a chance to win money. It's also very normal for an organization and their players to consider your competition once its made a significant impact on the scene and international interest to help with the players/teams branding. That's normal too. I'm not saying I approve or disapprove, I'm just saying there's a lot of reaction for something that is more or less expected. Also shame on you Steven for posting private emails. You can maintain transparency by showing discretion and not posting full, uncensored, emails when you could easily paraphrase it in your own words that respect the person's confidentiality in your exchange as well as their decision (acceptance/decline). All in all, I think the tournament is off to a great start for further iterations and it's commending to see you push things forward. I think as you grow the brand, more opportunities will arise and don't take business answers to a personal level and things should iron out for the best. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On August 12 2014 18:53 Torte de Lini wrote: I didn't read much of the discussion. But KeSPA's response is relatively normal from a business-perspective. Destiny gets more out of KeSPA players than they get out of the event. No different than for any other talent agency. I get that it gives more chances for the player to win money but it also requires their time, effort and KeSPA's involvement/proceedings. In Street Fighter, if you want Daigo to play in your show or competition, you have to book him 4 weeks in advance and there may be an appearance fee (for X amount). That's just how it is, he is very much in demand and you have to justify his appearance with more than just a chance to win money. It's also very normal for an organization and their players to consider your competition once its made a significant impact on the scene and international interest to help with the players/teams branding. That's normal too. I'm not saying I approve or disapprove, I'm just saying there's a lot of reaction for something that is more or less expected. Also shame on you Steven for posting private emails. You can maintain transparency by showing discretion and not posting full, uncensored, emails when you could easily paraphrase it in your own words that respect the person's confidentiality in your exchange as well as their decision (acceptance/decline). All in all, I think the tournament is off to a great start for further iterations and it's commending to see you push things forward. I think as you grow the brand, more opportunities will arise and don't take business answers to a personal level and things should iron out for the best. I 1000000% Agree with this. That is all. | ||
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Penev
28440 Posts
On August 12 2014 16:24 Plexa wrote: While I have zero stake in this discussion, I have a small issue with your logic. While KeSPA intends to set out to act in the best interest of the teams it represents, why is it that KeSPA actually is acting in the best interest of the teams? While I confess to not being completely clued up on the situation, from what I gather the discussion took place solely between KeSPA and Destiny with the teams removed from the equation. This also lines up with our previous experiences with KeSPA and the difficulty in getting any kind of media from teams, so to me this seems like a reasonable assumption. Given this, it means the teams themselves actually aren't involved in the decision making process to have players involved in the event at all. This seems problematic because teams obviously understand their own position and their own players better than any other representative. Moreover, the decision not to compete coming from the teams themselves would make this far more understandable (e.g. sorry we're preparing for proleague). It also goes over much better than having some intermediate party blocking it. If I'm mistaken then please correct me! This is exactly what has been wrong, is wrong and hopefully not always be wrong about an organization like KeSPA. I don't mind a governing body with rules and authority but deciding for teams and players what tournaments they participate in is WAY too much control. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
I hope the 2011/2012 destiny isn't gone because he is really entertaining. I also found the trolls to be hilarious, even though I'm sure they were frustrating to you. Frankly, the games themselves are less entertaining than the casters and whatever fuckups occurs. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
On August 12 2014 15:23 TrutY wrote: So i only hope that Destiny learned the most important lessons here. Never ever be transparent, or face the the rage of twelve year old humanitarians that work in Peru of Africa for making money with something you do... It was fun tournament but fuck this transparency shit, there is too much kids that haven't worked a day in their life's and previously mentioned humanitarians... Peru of Africa What. So, destiny was completely within his rights regarding this $1800 payment shit. He didnt take a cent from the crowdfunding money he said he would use entirely for the tournament so everybody needs to get some perspective. The Kespa situation though..oh destiny, why would you go down the road of posting emails publicly and calling them out. You even then go on to say "Well chudd is posting in public now why cant i!" He's posting in public because you forced his/kespas hand to reply to the situation or suffer PR backlash from something somebody else has done to purposefully hurt their company. Their original email that you posted was not rude, it wasn't out of order and they weren't even stonewalling you. They answered with legitimate concerns and wariness and questions regarding you and your tournament. This is after you requested A-team superstars to attend your tiny crowdfunded grassroots tournament (especially from koreas point of view, i doubt they even know you or the tournament exist.) You then didn't reply to them further and got all upset you didn't get an automatic "yes!" when if you had kept the conversation up could probably have ended up with several of Kespa's players in attendance (yes likely B-teamers). You were unwilling to explain yourself to the NBA as a high-school coach. Your lack of communication after being met with a hesitant no and questions about you and your tournament makes it look like you made a demand to kespa, not a request. I fully believe kespas only reason for not having players participate is that Destiny requested A-team superstars right out of the gate and most of them would be busy with one of the most important korean events on their calender anyway. He then dropped all further communication with them until this thread. Why would they start contacting teams and players about an opportunity to play in a small tournament if they tournament itself showed no further interest in gaining kespas teams/players/support. I sincerely doubt this was kespa blocking their teams / players from participating at all, they just never got to the point of informing them of the "opportunity" because of Destiny's lack of communication and therefore interest. Once again this "opportunity" being a random, no-name, grassroots, crowdfunded tournament of absolutely no significance to anybody in korea that failed to communicate, answer questions or show legitimate interest in having kespa players participate. tl;dr - Destiny's own fault kespa players didnt attend imo. Looking forward to DII | ||
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