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On August 12 2014 11:37 jellyjello wrote:
You don't really take criticism well, do you?
Most people dont when they're being leapt on by the people they just put a tournament on for. Try to have a little empathy for that. Most people are never put in positions like this, so they can't really understand what it's like.
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On August 12 2014 11:37 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 11:24 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 11:21 jellyjello wrote:On August 12 2014 11:03 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 10:56 Chuddinater wrote:On August 12 2014 10:37 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote:
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players. what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure? His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience. Hi. I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings. My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons. Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well. The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me. So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament. Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs. If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so. The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets. You don't really take criticism well, do you?
This post was a great contribution to the thread. 9/11 would read again.
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Kespa doesnt control anything, its up to the viewers and players to boycott their product.
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On August 12 2014 11:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 11:03 Estancia wrote:On August 12 2014 10:56 Chuddinater wrote:On August 12 2014 10:37 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote:
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players. what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure? His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience. Just out of curiosity can I ask what did Totalbiscuit sell to KeSPA for the Sandisk Shoutcraft Invitational? From my perspective the same thing, though with a larger prizepool, smaller playpool, larger audience, dedicated Korean cast and full focus on Korean talent, staffed by a caster and cocaster the players knew. That said I would like to hear Chuddinaters answer. KeSPAs perspective is protecting the players and also doing their sponsors the fullest possible service, which is completely justifiable. That's why KeSPA is as successful as it is, literally no esports organization on planet earth protects their players and gives their sponsors ROI better than KeSPA does. Think about it that way. What does SKT gain from playing in a foreign event? By SKT I'm talking the sponsor not the team. Not much. SKT sells services in Korea, not America. That's why I've been trying my best to integrate better with the Korean audience so we can actually help those sponsors. I want KeSPA to succeed, I want all of Starcraft to succeed. That I think if anything is the one thing that didn't come across well in Chuddinators response. It almost seems like tournament organizers are being labeled as an enemy and players are a commodity. I don't agree with that. We're not enemies, we're on the same side. Show nested quote +Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs. This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
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Kespa is prohibiting player to participate, the idea that they must alow it is ridiculous itself in my opinion. Every e-sport organization other than Kespa seens to agree with that. They have nothing to lose, worst case scenario the tournament gets a low viewership and they would lose nothing if that happens.
Also, i think it was nonsensical to ask for sponsors to be mentioned in a crowd funded tournament, or mentioning that the tournament should make a name first when its named and organized by a person as famous in the Starcraft 2 scene as Destiny, that whlie the sucessful crowd funding was running. The numbers speak for themselves. Kespa should at least do some research/thinking before they deny opportunities to their own players.
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On August 12 2014 11:41 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 11:37 jellyjello wrote:On August 12 2014 11:24 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 11:21 jellyjello wrote:On August 12 2014 11:03 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 10:56 Chuddinater wrote:On August 12 2014 10:37 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote:
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players. what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure? His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience. Hi. I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings. What does 9/11 mean ? Are you refering to the terrioist attacks on the World Trade Center ? My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons. Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well. The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me. So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament. Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs. If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so. The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets. You don't really take criticism well, do you? This post was a great contribution to the thread. 9/11 would read again.
What is 9/11? Are you talking about the World Trade Center
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On August 12 2014 11:31 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 11:30 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 11:24 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 11:21 jellyjello wrote:On August 12 2014 11:03 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 10:56 Chuddinater wrote:On August 12 2014 10:37 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote:
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players. what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure? His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience. Hi. I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings. My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons. Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well. The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me. So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament. Very good dialect, except that this is a public forum. Keep on going and burn that bridge further. You should have continued to communicate with KeSPA - in PRIVATE - to work out the differences instead of pouting like an amateur and posting all this crap on a public forum. You are basically limiting the options that KeSPA has now, not only for yourself but for all the other potential organizations in the future. A little bit more professionalism is what this scene needs. If he started to respond publicly, than I think I can as well, no? I don't think KeSPA is very discrete in regards to how they conduct their business and I think Chudd posts pretty often on twitter/reddit about KeSPA and the rationale behind their decisions, or at least what their decisions are. If he wants me to take it off of a public forum, I'd respect the request to do so. The random "WE NED MORE PEROFESIONALISM LOL" jab at me gets you nowhere, though, so please calm your "2cool4skool" jets. who posted emails again? i forgot. It was an e-mail sent while representing a large organization. You want to talk "professionalism"..? Do you really think any e-mail sent on behalf of one business to another is EVER expected to stay private? Do you even understand why NDA's exist? If you're this pants-on-head retarded, why the fuck would you waste someone's time responding to them in a public forum?
my reply was more towards your statement of "if he starts to reply, why cant i". of course hes going to reply when you're trying to paint him as a bad guy.
do i care if you're professional? not really, u can do whatever the fuck you want. its your life, if you want to be seen as a guy who'll post work emails on public forums, terrific for you.
as for your earlier comment on you didnt like the contents of the email, i can't see why. he brought up very valid points. nothing he wrote was false. you would've gained more attention/viewership with kespa's involvement, it was your first tournament, you probably didnt know how it was going to turn out and you didnt let him know sponsors. i mean how was he not going to be skeptical about this? next time you'll have better answers to these questions though.
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On August 12 2014 11:48 Superbanana wrote:
Kespa is prohibiting player to participate, the idea that they must alow it is ridiculous itself in my opinion. Every e-sport organization other than Kespa seens to agree with that. They have nothing to lose, worst case scenario the tournament gets a low viewership and they would lose nothing if that happens.
nothing to lose is quite dependent on the person's view. you might think it doesnt matter to kespa, but they clearly have their own set of criterias
Also, i think it was nonsensical to ask for sponsors to be mentioned in a crowd funded tournament, or mentioning that the tournament should make a name first when its named and organized by a person as famous in the Starcraft 2 scene as Destiny, that whlie the sucessful crowd funding was running. The numbers speak for themselves. Kespa should at least do some research/thinking before they deny opportunities to their own players.
they didnt ask for sponsors to be mentioned, they asked if the tournament had any sponsors. what does him being famous or had a successful crowd funding have to do with anything? we've all seen MANY times that money does not guarantee a successful tournament, so no, the number did not speak for themselves. there was nothing to go on, no previous experience, no previous viewership numbers to point to.
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had a hearty laugh at the kespa section of op.
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Are you seeking any other help with your future tournament(s)?
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On August 12 2014 11:48 jellyjello wrote:
Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
I heartily disagree with your assessment and attempt to reframe the issue to better support your argument.
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On August 12 2014 11:48 jellyjello wrote:
Transparency for what? It appears that there was hardly any dialect between the two parties, and the little amount of effort was done in the public settings in which it was more about defending one's position rather than working out the differences. If your goal is to come to an agreement that satisfies both parties through rigorous discussions, then you need to do it in the environment that promotes free dialect. Public forum is NOT one of those environments. This is not about transparency.
I heartily disagree with your use of dialect, I think you meant to use dialogue?
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Kind of shows you how Kespa operates that they wanted to get something in return for allowing their players to play in a simple online tournament. I mean do you really need to demand a benefit from that? You have to wonder if the Sc2 scene is really healthy enough for them to demand something in return for even a small tournament like this. Just let your players play for the good of the scene as a whole rather than milking every dollar you can.
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On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that?
No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too.
There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man.
And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
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Looking forward to Destiny II. 
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Thank you Steven for being so transparent in everything that you do in Esports, it makes the SC2 scene better as a whole when people like you do this.
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On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
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On August 12 2014 12:44 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins. Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all.
When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG?
Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended?
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On August 12 2014 12:44 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins. Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer.
If you are a conservative organization like Kespa any potential for controversy is too much controversy. Personally I wish they would have taken a chance with Destiny but I understand why they wont. But I also think Destiny should be the bigger person here and get over what he perceives as a slight and not view this as Kespa waiting for him to do 'all the hard work' and then 'profit' of it. Kespa players at Destiny II is a win-win scenario definitely. Kespa players at Destiny I was probably a win win scenario but too risky from their perspective.
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On August 12 2014 11:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:
This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them.
TB, sometimes i agree with you, often i disagree, but i have a lot of respect for what you do in this scene and your intelligence and ambition as a businessman. that said, the thing that most often puts me off about figures such as yourself and destiny is what i perceive as an attitude of massive entitlement and egoism, and this statement is a good example. in the OP, destiny speaks as if he is an individual of great importance to whom KESPA is somehow obligated/indebted, and it seems as if he tries to rally his fanbase/the community against them for the crime of disregarding his tournament. as i said in an earlier post, even if it's felt that KESPA made a mistake in how they handled his proposition, i don't feel it's necessary or appropriate to start feuds and stir anger over what is simply a business decision the likes of which are made every day in every industry
similarly, in your post, you take one person's rudeness and use it as an excuse to throw your hands in the air and start railing against the entire community (which you rely on for the livelihood of your esports brand) as a flock of ignorant babies who are too immature and misinformed to understand why your product/destiny's product/your opinion/etc. is some great favor and blessing which they should thank you for and never question. i think it's abjectly ridiculous to claim that "we can't have transparency" because a certain percentage of the community will inevitably react poorly. if anything, by focusing on and complaining about their misbehavior, you are doing your part to ensure that the vocal minority of haters and destructive attitudes continue feeling vindicated in what they do and continuing the cycle of hostility
i understand that you are a no-nonsense person who believes in transparency and honesty, and i understand the benefits of those attributes when it comes to getting results and making things happen. but i don't feel that it entirely justifies the pattern i've seen from certain individuals (sometimes including yourself and destiny) of mocking and berating anyone who questions your business model or decisions and rallying your fanbases against people until they've just been shouted out of the conversation.
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EPT
