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On August 12 2014 12:51 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 12:44 Doodsmack wrote:On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins. Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer. Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all. When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG? Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended?
Their threshold for controversy is probably much lower than a Western tournaments, and the people who they are worried about arent Western SC2 fans but Korean telecoms and their equivalents. [Here is an example. A Kespa player is in a game where that one annoying spammer dropped the racial epitaphs. Some annoying muckraker then emails Samsung or Korean Telecom and cc's the korean version of yellow press and says "why do you associate with a known racist who has mods that promote racial views." Then they link a screen grab of the racial abuse, your name and then your online trail, including your comments when you were much less mature and much younger regarding certain races. And there you go, controversy. Is this an extreme? Of course, but remember when you were hounded by random people who had 0 actual relation to the SC2 scene out of a team? It appears that Kespa views the relatively small chance of this chain of events occurring as unpalatable.]
Like I said, I agree that they should have thrown a bone your way for the greater good but I also understand why they didnt in the first iteration. Everyone thinks you did a great job man, and the tournament exceeded even your expectation. If they choose to not send players to Destiny II then I am on your side 100%.
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On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins.
Even if the spammer that snuck into the games had spammed screenfuls of racial epithets rather than random characters. That stuff doesn't look very good on Destiny.
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United States258 Posts
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On August 12 2014 12:57 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 12:51 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 12:44 Doodsmack wrote:On August 12 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 09:18 deathly rat wrote:On August 12 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:On August 12 2014 08:46 Thax wrote:On August 12 2014 08:12 Sub40APM wrote:
Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol Yea, I'm not entirely sure this was the best way to handle that when he hadn't decided yet to completely cut ties with Kespa. Not that I'm defending Kespa, really. They obviously do good things, but they increasingly feel like one of those unions or professional organisations that cost their members more opportunities to earn a living than it creates by being overly restrictive. I dont understand his logic, so KESPA didnt want to loan out their players to his tournament because they viewed him as small potatoes and now he is reluctant to share future benefits because 'he did all the hard work'? He was always going to do all the hard work as the organizer, just like every other tournament organization. For KESPA the organization the benefits are relatively small, who doesnt know their players? For Destiny the benefits of KESPA players in his tournament are still huge, it might easily bring in an extra 3-4000 viewers alone. So they didnt believe in him as much as TL or EG or TB whatever believed in him, why take it so personally? WTF are you talking about? Loaning players? This was an opportunity for KESPA players to take part in a tournament that they would have had a good chance at earning some money, with absolutely no risk to either KESPA or the players. [ What did KESPA have to gain from it? I don't know, income for the players they purport to represent? Encouraging a scene that their existence depends upon? Something like that? No risk? Of course there is risk, if Destiny creates a tournament that dissolves in accusations of theft of prize moneys then the KESPA brand is associated with it. If Destiny's tournament collapses because of another Destiny sex scandal, KESPA is associated with that now too. There was a massive uncertainty to how a Destiny tournament would turn out, so a conservative organization like KESPA took the conservative approach to wait. Destiny shouldnt take it personally, take the extra 3-5k viewers KESPA players might bring in from Korean viewers if he invites KESPA players to Destiny II and be the bigger man. And TB posted a great explanation of how tournaments can work with KESPA for increased benefits to KESPA sponsors, and also articulated the frustration that Destiny is channeling without a bridge-burny way of doing it. Kespa should want to work with Western organizations that take KESPA's concern re: its sponsors seriously and also have a track record of delivering (the way that TB had prior to his work and the way Destiny should have now that he demonstrated a very impressive tournament organizing skill) because then everyone wins. Right because the players in a tournament have ever taken the blame or been criticized for the failures of a tournament organizer. Exactly this, I don't buy this excuse at all. When the drama surrounding dikpix leak happened to me, how many people pointed fingers blaming MLG? Or when x tournaments in the past have failed to pay out prize pools, how many people thought poorly on the players that attended? Their threshold for controversy is probably much lower than a Western tournaments, and the people who they are worried about arent Western SC2 fans but Korean telecoms and their equivalents. [Here is an example. A Kespa player is in a game where that one annoying spammer dropped the racial epitaphs. Some annoying muckraker then emails Samsung or Korean Telecom and cc's the korean version of yellow press and says "why do you associate with a known racist who has mods that promote racial views." Then they link a screen grab of the racial abuse, your name and then your online trail, including your comments when you were much less mature and much younger regarding certain races. And there you go, controversy. Is this an extreme? Of course, but remember when you were hounded by random people who had 0 actual relation to the SC2 scene out of a team? It appears that Kespa views the relatively small chance of this chain of events occurring as unpalatable.] Like I said, I agree that they should have thrown a bone your way for the greater good but I also understand why they didnt in the first iteration. Everyone thinks you did a great job man, and the tournament exceeded even your expectation. If they choose to not send players to Destiny II then I am on your side 100%.
Well you just invented this scenario out of thin air after just deeming Kespa a "conservative" organization, as if that is a substantive defense rather than just a description of what Destiny asserts is the problem in the first place.
This level of conservatism from Kespa, if indeed your scenario were the case, is just imprudent and deserving of criticism. The benefit of letting their players play in a harmless outweighs the highly unlikely downside.
And I don't think it is wariness of controversy that kept Kespa out of this tournament. It is them wanting something in exchange for letting their players play.
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I'm pretty amazed at the amount of work needed to run something even like Destiny I, not to say it was poorly done. Really opened up my eyes to just how complex running any tournament is. Kudos to the hard work, and the transparency.
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The Kespa issue may be best resolved in a tit for tat way. I hate it, but if they realize they're missing out legitimately on prize money and exposure it might make them more polite.
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He was transparent with why Kespa players did not attend. He posted a primary document so it wasn't just hearsay.
He was transparent about how much he paid himself and how he did that.
He was transparent about how much went to players and how he paid for that.
People say posting a primary document was too much in hurting his relation with a group. (He posted his thoughts on that group and asked the community what they would like.)
People accused him of theft for paying himself. (Apparently making money is bad. If this is so why doesn't everyone yell at CEOs/game developers?) Edit: I guess a lot of people do yell at game developing companies for on release dlc/yada.
People didn't mention anything about making payments to players on time. (Some tournaments have had this issue in the past. I'm not surprised no one mentioned this in great detail.)
Total Biscuit says, roughly not quoting him on this for a reason, transparency is only wanted when it is convenient, and it can cause issues when people are.
So I think both Destiny is correct in his use of transparency (it is what people wanted and what he promised) and TotalBiscuit is correct in his assessment that transparency can cause issues. Was posting a primary document too much? Probably not, primary documents are needed to verify information. We can't all get our news from tertiary sources all day long. That is how mice turn into monsters.
My opinion is a lot of you are just trying to find a reason to be upset because you want to be upset. That is your choice. You're free to do that. I am just here to TLDR the events people are angry (mostly upset. Thankfully there has been minimal ad hominem) about.
I have no opinion on Kespa, at the end of the day it is their choice to do what they want with their players. You can form your own opinion, that's up to you.
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 12 2014 11:03 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 10:56 Chuddinater wrote:On August 12 2014 10:37 zev318 wrote:On August 12 2014 10:30 Chuddinater wrote:
I'm very sorry if I came off as rude in the email. That was not my intentions I just wanted to be honest and upfront with him at the time. What I was asking for was for him to sell me on his tournament, which I don't think is something rude. Maybe I should not be as honest when working with people I do not know in the future because they just might post your email on a public forum. It seems some people want me to just sugar coat my response, but I personally believe that being honest and upfront makes it so both parties know exactly what needs to get done.
Also I have read through the comments and people think KeSPA is demanding money or something to send our players, which is completely false. We don't get paid money by any tournament to send players. what was his sell to kespa? was it really just oh your players could make minimal money and give kespa minimal exposure? His sell was there is prize money and you get exposure to the western audience. Hi. I'm not really concerned that you came off as rude. I've been on the internet for far too many years now to get hurt feelings. My concern was that you were A) potentially holding back the growth of a part of the tournament scene (I am bias in here, obviously, as I can profit directly from that growth), and B) that you were depriving your players from a chance at earning some easy money without any legitimate reasons. Initially I did request top-tier players, but based on the responses I don't think you would have lent me any B-teamers as well. The idea that "oh you can benefit from this exposure!" when it literally requires zero work from KeSPA to allow some of their players to play off in an online tournament also came off as a bit ridiculous to me. You of all people I'm sure understand that the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea is abysmal right now, and Korea is one of the most over-populated places in regards to performance->talent. Unlocking the ability for some of those players to grab some easy money from a Western tournament that they didn't even have to travel to seems like a no-brainer. The idea that you're somehow "protecting KeSPA's image" by disallowing those players to participate in an online tournament seems...baffling to me. So to reiterate, I'm not upset with your tone. I think you did a fine job at conveying exactly what you meant without wasting anyone's time in the transaction, and, even if it seems like I'm coming off as snarky, I'm grateful for that. I just didn't like the actual contents of the message, as it seems to me any Korean player would jump at the opportunity to snatch up some easy money in a foreign tournament.
Hello Destiny,
I would like to go over some of the points you make.
A) I do not understand why you believe it is our duty to help grow your tournament. It is not like we prevent you from having a tournament we just prefer not to participate at this time.
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Many people believe my comment about asking what KeSPA has to benefit from this tournament to mean that we are asking for money in return for our players to participate in Destiny I. We do no ask any tournament to give us any money in compensation for our players participating. We also don't take any of a player's prize money. What I was getting at was what benefit is there for SK Telecom or Jin Air for having players in this tournament. TB makes a great point on trying to make more incentives for Korean teams to participate by having separate Korean casts and open it up more to Korean viewers.
Also I do not mind speaking on a public forum to explain KeSPA's reasoning to the fans. I believe since fans are the force that drives e-Sports they should not be left in the dark; however I think posting emails online is very unprofessional.
In the end it was a business decision not to have players participate in a brand new tournament that is hosted by someone neither KeSPA nor our teams have had any prior relation with. If you would like to have player participate in your tournament in the future I would work on building a business relationship with KeSPA. I think it is a step in the wrong direction to ask KeSPA to have our players participate in a brand new tournament and then complain that we did not want to participate when we have never had any sort of business relationship in the past.
I’m very happy that Destiny I was so successful and hope Destiny II will continue to grow. I wish you the best of luck.
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I have so much respect for this level of transparency, Destiny. Seriously, the game and industry needs more people like you doing cool stuff like this.
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Discussing money over TL.. that is professionalism at its best!
You guys are talking buisness while Chuddinater is the only one who sees this scene and this sport from a professional angle and who is completely right in his points. It is hilarious, the people posting and hating here simply do NOT understand the money-part in this buisness. I would say that someone like TB completely agrees with the recent post of Chuddinater.
If people want to be part of a growing game, they have to approach this scene with professionalism, like KeSPA is doing it. Has anyone ever heard that they do not pay out their prize money or stuff like that? In the recent interview of GerrardPrime, we can read that he is grateful for the work KeSPA does, but we think they have to say things like that. I doubt that. Some rules seem strange to us, but it is normality in todays professional sports. So you can not chat while playing Proleague.. well, some flaming players are bad for sponsors - and sponsors are essential if we want to have a competitive scene in the future, and no crowdfuning-stuff.
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But how do you get a business relationship without trying to establish one in the first place... The subtext seems to be you need to prove you are worthy of a business relationship before you will be considered. Otherwise the initial invitation would have gotten more traction? i.e. wasn't that an expression of (business) interest from Destiny?
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Would gladly give money for Destiny 2!
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Good Job Destiny, but don't show internal emails. The whole issue could be discussed without showing this. But that is just a minor issue. I hope you have success with your next tournament. I also understand that your approach to "transparency" is positive. It is some kind of marketing tool, because of your public image and your dependence of crowdfunding. It makes sense.
But at the same time it opens room for discussion, which no business has to discuss and an open discussion can even hurt (i.e. salary issues, but also sponsor issues etc.). Some crucial decisions are highly debatable and posting them in a public forum will make them highly debated. TB was kinda shocked about his DH Moscow statement. But it was posted in a discussion forum... what do you expect?
Actually transpareny is not the holy grail and it can be overrated.
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So i only hope that Destiny learned the most important lessons here.
Never ever be transparent, or face the the rage of twelve year old humanitarians that work in Peru of Africa for making money with something you do...
It was fun tournament but fuck this transparency shit, there is too much kids that haven't worked a day in their life's and previously mentioned humanitarians...
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Hi Chuddinator,
could you comment on the general criticism of disallowing players to participate in an online tournament with very little time investment but potential price money that for some could be considered substantial? Not referring to Destiny I in particular.
Also, why players don't have control over participating in an online tournament like this one in the first place. Winning 1,600$ or 800$ from competing in a manageable player pool might be drops in a bucket for Kespa, but I strongly assume it would make a difference for a lesser known player's financial situation.
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Wait a second, I know that I might have dickrided Kespa in the past due to their big support for BW but this is an entire level of ridiculous.
Isn't Kespa's official intention is to grow esport as much as they can and spread it?
This is totally against their official intentions. By having there players, this is creating more awareness for SC2 tournaments and thus increase publicity on all sides in the Korean community, and foreign community.
I would understand that Kespa might be concerned with Destiny actually paying the players but unlike other "organizations" that just magically come up with a load of money, Destiny actually have the Indigogo page to prove that he actually have the funds. This is way better than all the other companies that have no factual proof if they actually have the fund or not. So this event should be even MORE credible than MANY other event out there, not less.
In the end, this is just pure BS that Kespa wouldn't want their players to participate, which can benefit all parties involved because they are not getting any direct cash from this.
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On August 12 2014 15:32 Varest wrote:
Hi Chuddinator,
could you comment on the general criticism of disallowing players to participate in an online tournament with very little time investment but potential price money that for some could be considered substantial? Not referring to Destiny I in particular.
Also, why players don't have control over participating in an online tournament like this one in the first place. Winning 1,600$ or 800$ from a manageable player pool might be drops in a bucket for an institution, but I strongly assume it would make a difference for a lesser known player's financial situation.
I don't think the regulations are as tight as you think they are, didn't Solar(Samsung Galaxy) become known through online foreign tournaments? Small ones.
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On August 12 2014 14:33 Chuddinater wrote:
B) I'm going to be very blunt with this answer. Do you think KeSPA and our players are in such dire need for money that as long as there is a prize pool they will participate? If that was the case why would players like FlaSh and Maru decline invitations to tournaments even though KeSPA would pay for all their travel expenses? Prize money is great but it is not the end all for KeSPA players and their teams. Money is just one of the reasons players will participate in an event not the sole motivating factor.
Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Destiny I and Go4SC2 for KeSPA teams? At the very least we've seen Samsung players like Solar and Armani appearing in them.
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Yeah I think it's kinda neat to post financial documents; get a bit of an "insider look" at tournament organization (it looks like a ton of work! Kudos for doing it all!)
Shame that the whole email with Kespa thing is just a little cringeworthy. People just don't like negotiating with someone who might expose their private correspondence; though I imagine the two will move beyond this pretty easily. No matter how dumb Kespa's reasoning might be (I personally think it's a bit uptight, but understandable), better to respect the privacy of negotiation and just paraphrase the exchange.
Anyway, I hope Destiny continues his work and maybe gets some support organizing, if the next event is to be even bigger!
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On August 12 2014 15:37 Dodgin wrote:
I don't think the regulations are as tight as you think they are, didn't Solar(Samsung Galaxy) become known through online foreign tournaments? Small ones.
This is what I'm referring to:
On July 22 2014 06:18 OGamingTV wrote:
I can told you why there is no KeSPa players except for MarineKing. First good Korean players are related to KeSPA. I have good relations with some KeSPA players but I'm not allowed to invite them to the tournament because I need the coach/manager of the team to allow his players to be on the tournament. But my only way to talk to the manager is to talk to the player but they are not allowed to tell me who contact. We need to contact KeSPA but it's really hard to do.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask on this account or PM me on Aeromi.
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EPT
