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On July 16 2014 05:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 05:22 ejozl wrote:2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game... Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3. Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other. Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something. Show nested quote +
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
I love this idea, because I believe the idea of "high infastructure costs" to counter certain openings per se makes early game more coinflippy. Like if you need to invest X amounts of money to beat build Y, but your investment is totally useless if the opponent does build Z, and you have no reliable way of knowing whether he does build Y or Z, then the game becomes more coinflippy. So IMO turrets should indeed be buildable without Ebay, but in this proces, I would argue for further adjustments as well; - Buffs to DT's - Buff to Banshee's - Nerf to turrets (perhaps with an upgrade that cancels out the nerf). Otherwise, I do think it will be too easy for terran to reflect mos harass. I still believe harass openings needs to do damage, but as long as terran has a turret, then he will be able to survive which for me is the important part.
You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
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T vs Z was a fun match to watch when wm had there orginal splash done but later on zerg was already adapting to this style play toward late game before blizz made the patch and made it worse for terran. Im hoping wm go back to the orginal hots damage and I wouldnt care about any other buff. If any one say wm would make it terran favor they should go check out forgg vs stephano match and remeber wm are a double edge sword they can work with u or not. If blizz makes a different change to wm I hope it like a burrowed baneling does splash damage within its area instead chasing the zergling that activated it.
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On July 16 2014 02:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +Widow Mine splash radius increase
The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game. WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds). I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates. They need to start looking at actual problems - what army does a terran transition to? How can terran deal with mass warpins lategame? If they want, how can terran pressure protoss early? But they keep buffing the midgame where terran's already at their strongest. I don't get it.
This. 100% Agree. I think its pretty simle and the patches in the last year just confirm this. Blizzard doesnt understand the game they are balancing unfortunatelly, which is sad. I really hope they step it up, but with each balance patch the hope gets slimmer. Good thing is, that the people here have some really good suggestions, so if they listen, then maybe 
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You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
Maybe. I just don't consider it to be that good in itself. Personally, I wouldn't mind DT's being a bit faster as it allows a bit more potential in the hands of a good player.
It's ofc pretty good already as lategame-harass in TvP, but I think that arises more due to other late game balance issues in TvP, which I rather deal with in itself once LOTV comes out.
T vs Z was a fun match to watch when wm had there orginal splash done but later on zerg was already adapting to this style play toward late game before blizz made the patch and made it worse for terran. Im hoping wm go back to the orginal hots damage and I wouldnt care about any other buff. If any one say wm would make it terran favor they should go check out forgg vs stephano match and remeber wm are a double edge sword they can work with u or not. If blizz makes a different change to wm I hope it like a burrowed baneling does splash damage within its area instead chasing the zergling that activated it.
Yeh balance for me is also not the main issue here. I just want Widow Mine to be good enough to make zergs have to micro more during engagements.
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Why not leave Time Warp the same and just lock it to a 50/50 research or something like concussive shields?
I'm excited to see how stupid these widow mines are in game.
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Something needs to change seeing that Protoss is winning tournaments left to right in this season. The only way a Terran or a Zerg to win a tournament is when there is no premier Korean Toss in it. I'm glad that these drastic changes are going to be implemented
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On July 16 2014 06:05 DinoMight wrote:
Why not leave Time Warp the same and just lock it to a 50/50 research or something like concussive shields?
I'm excited to see how stupid these widow mines are in game.
30 seconds with two of them available at once is just too much, especially combined with forcefields. It just kills any realistic potential to micro. It's an ability that should probably never have made it to live, but now it's here and we'll just have to live with it. The less of it we see the better imo, Sc2 needs more incentive to micro, not less.
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On July 16 2014 05:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 05:32 Hider wrote:On July 16 2014 05:22 ejozl wrote:2010 - early 2012 SC2 was the best, but I think it was because the game had a much larger player / viewerbase and wasn't figured out yet. When people started splitting marines against banelings for the first time, it was mindblowing LOL.
That feeling can only come from a new game... Something like this will happen again in SC2 I ensure you. Happened in BW, happened in WC3. Overall am happier with where they are going with things. I hate the idea of the Widow Mine to be a Protoss hater Mine. It seems this is really needed vs Mutas and Zerg micro is something we need, to make Zergs stand out from each other. Only thing I'm a sad Zealot about is the Time Warp, it's a super nice change for nerfing all ins and I always kind of felt like it was very powerful. However I'd rather it to effect friendly units aswell or at least reduce the mana cost or something.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
I love this idea, because I believe the idea of "high infastructure costs" to counter certain openings per se makes early game more coinflippy. Like if you need to invest X amounts of money to beat build Y, but your investment is totally useless if the opponent does build Z, and you have no reliable way of knowing whether he does build Y or Z, then the game becomes more coinflippy. So IMO turrets should indeed be buildable without Ebay, but in this proces, I would argue for further adjustments as well; - Buffs to DT's - Buff to Banshee's - Nerf to turrets (perhaps with an upgrade that cancels out the nerf). Otherwise, I do think it will be too easy for terran to reflect mos harass. I still believe harass openings needs to do damage, but as long as terran has a turret, then he will be able to survive which for me is the important part. You can go without the DT buff imo, there is no specific buff that you can give it that would answer a better turret, as the interaction DT/turret is basically be seen/not be seen. I guess you could make it a little less good vs oracles, in the same spirit as vs banshee.
You could give DTs blink or a snipe-like ability so it could snatch a kill or two and get the hell out despite being seen. Or that void prison ability from the campaign to disable detectors. There are always possibilities.
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I'd go to full length and just remove Time Warp all-together.
And a big no to Widow Mine change. No matter what everyone here thinks, as a viewer, to me the match-up seemed quite in Terran's favor with old Widow Mines. Not to mention the whole randomness of it. It's not something an e-sports game needs. Watching Widow Mine blow up a dozen Banelings feels like watching a Michael Bay movie.
I would much more prefer a Muta nerf or a bigger change to Thor, anything to make that unit better - reduce size, increase speed, turn rate, whatever.
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These changes might want me to play hots again..maybe...
Looks like tvz is pretty set that it will be better after they patch it...However, i hope they really do something about lategame tvp...
Then i might play active again ^^
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On July 16 2014 01:45 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +
Thank you for helping us playtest the current test map. From our own testing and the feedback we’ve gathered so far, here are our current thoughts on the changes:
Thor AA prioritization change
This is a good change that’s simple and clean. It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat, and the general usage makes more sense with this change.
Time Warp duration decrease
The effects of this change definitely seem noticeable, but we’d like to push this nerf slightly further.
Widow Mine splash radius increase
The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
Time Warp
Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Obviously, these are just balance test map changes and part of the ongoing testing process. Nothing is final yet, so please share your thoughts after having playtested the current balance test map changes as well as the upcoming changes detailed in this post.
Thank you.
Link
Thank you. At last what makes sense.
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They should just nerf the oracle into the ground and remove the MSC, then terran will have a better early game and the 3 base rushes will be heavily punished, making protoss hard to play again.
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YES! Awesome!
This will help TvZ out and is even better than the previous balance test map!
The lower splash but higher damage compared to the previous suggestions will help Mech players be more aggressive early on (compared to earlier with the larger splash which was more late game focused) and promote heavy WM mech styles! Constant back and forth hurray! And it's also stronger which will also help lategame, though that's not that important. With a stronger early game, it'll be easier to keep the Protoss in check and we can have more active games with more interactions.
Meanwhile the previous suggestion didn't help too much in TvZ and I found that Thors with WMs did a lot of splash on my Thors now that the splash was increased, whereas previously they basically did no splash damage (maybe hitting only 1 thor and not 4).
Perfect!
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um, i can live with the thor change and the wm buff for TvZ from a balance point of view(even tho zerg will get rekt for the first couple of month (old mine was a bit imba imo)), but i fear that i will make the match up even more one dimensional.
time warp nerf is good
regarding TvP
wm buff plus shield damage vs toss is to much.
i want templar openings back. just give terran a much needed stronger early game, by nerfing the shit out of photon overcharge and a possible oracle nerf (maybe dps a bit or straight up increased gas cost)
would also effect PvZ in a good way imo
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On July 16 2014 02:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +Widow Mine splash radius increase
The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game. WHY? Let them destroy protoss mineral lines, it forces the protoss to react. There's no problem with that. But the midgame strength of widow mines doesn't need to be buffed. The opposite really, they need to take away the +shield damage again. It took away an entire viable playstyle for protoss and gave nothing back for terran. They still play the exact same way but it's stronger now because you can also mix in mines. Nobody makes widow mines vs lategame protoss because colossus swipes clear them out before they even detonate. So in other words, they want to buff mines for the midgame AGAIN, where they're already strong enough (and too strong in certain scenarios, seeing how they entirely killed off templar builds). I'm getting more and more frustrated every single time they push out one of these updates. They need to start looking at actual problems - what army does a terran transition to? How can terran deal with mass warpins lategame? If they want, how can terran pressure protoss early? But they keep buffing the midgame where terran's already at their strongest. I don't get it.
Man, I very much agree with the bolded part. When mines first came out, they were raping probe lines left and right, but then Protoss adjusted, figured out timings, and tightened up their reactions. Let them wreck probes, that's fine. I just want Templar openings to be viable again so please remove + shield damage, or at least tone it way the hell down -_-
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Photon Overcharge as a Cyber Core research or something. Make players choose between being aggressive or playing greedy. Tweak the timing/cost of the upgrade so that you can still have the ability by the time you'd need it for defense, but not be able to get Warpgate AND Photon Overcharge early.
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Blizz really has a short memory, maybe they should revert the infestor nerf as well?
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Mid-Masters Protoss player here who also really loves to offrace as Terran . I am looking at the T changes with a positive outlook. I would love to see more mech TvP though and it would be nice if they actually tried to tweek the Siege Tank a bit to encourage that style of play. As far as the Time Warp Nerf I agree too that it`s currently too long. However, 10 seconds for 100 energy seem like a bad deal. 10 seconds is perfect for duration, but they should reduce the energy a bit. Maybe 75 ?
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On July 16 2014 06:55 syriuszonito wrote:
Blizz really has a short memory, maybe they should revert the infestor nerf as well?
Which one? ;-)
How I miss infestor harass. :'(
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Let them wreck probes, that's fine. I just want Templar openings to be viable again so please remove + shield damage, or at least tone it way the hell down -_-
Actually I wonder if it would be good to reduce their HP to 80. 1 storm would then kill it.
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On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
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EPT
