On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
what a bullshit comment. so the way is to make everything op as fuck to see if zergs can handle the shit or not so it will be nerfed again? we are going back to parade push until 3/3 beats 2/2 or the zerg gets a lucky friendly fire mine to go all out. yeah...great changes!
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
Or you just stop that bullshit of Terran getting to push Zerg all game long until Zerg reaches some magical number of mutalisks that one shot PFs and make it a back and forth game instead by giving both parties options to counter anything that the opponent can reach by compositional adjustments. Then we could finally get rid of this toxic "I need to be able to limit your fun" and "you should have killed me while you had the chance" gameplay. Really, changes in the meta only have to be accounted for for as long as the game gets balanced around timings instead of choices and longrun equilibria.
I cannot be the only one that remembers how after the mine nerf, tank buff, vehicle upgrade buff actually a lot of styles from both sides started to pop up. Where was Mech before that? What about Fantasies Mech into Bio build? Soulkey's Muta/SH against Mech. The combination of those patches actually worked very well in the sense of creating multiple nearly equally good playstyles for Terran. And instead of buffing one of them, balancing the game around one of them, why dont we use the chance to patch something that is actually a common problem to all of them? Aka (mass) mutalisks.
Here's how I see it. Templar is by far the more interesting opening for Protoss. It turns TvP into something resembling HOTS tug-of-war TvZ, which... if that doesn't sound like a great thing, then you've already forgotten WOL (and I envy you, you lucky bastard).
Templar right now is inferior to Colossus. I've asked for post-WM buff Korean games with Templar openings before, and didn't get any. I'll ask again. Is Templar unviable or is Templar less viable than Colossus? Because those are two very, very different things. Protoss lategame shat on Terran lategame back in WOL, and since then Protoss lategame has gotten considerably better while Terran lategame only got Afterburners and Viking upgrades, and an econ disadvantage bleeding in from the early game.
It is not only possible, but also probable, that Templar openings right now are actually balanced, while Colo openings are still as great as they've always been (aka not balanced) AND easier to execute (which has always been true regardless of balance). This would mean that the way to make Templar openings viable isn't to re-nerf the WM, it's to nerf the shit out of Colo opening so that Templar looks better by comparison.
I've seen basically no high level games of Templar openings in the last month or two, so I have no idea if Templar is actually balanced, or legitimately underpowered. If anyone has games, link them here so we can take a look and analyze as best we can.
And just in case you're wondering, Maru beating YongHwa's Templar opening won't be as definitive a proof as Gumiho beating Zest's....
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
what a bullshit comment. so the way is to make everything op as fuck to see if zergs can handle the shit or not so it will be nerfed again? we are going back to parade push until 3/3 beats 2/2 or the zerg gets a lucky friendly fire mine to go all out. yeah...great changes!
What a bullshit comment. So the way to address 3-4 Terrans in Code S for two seasons in a row is, what, another 0.2 attack speed on the Siege Tank? Get a grip on reality, man. And don't worry. There's no danger of an even distribution of races in this upcoming Code S.
I really like the widow mine change. Might actually try heavy mine TvZ, should be great vs swarm hosts too before you reach the critical siege tank number and allowing you to be safe with Thors.
On July 16 2014 03:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, transformation servos when armoury is built AND reverted widow mine change? How does either help TvP? Why screw the Zerg player over? It's not like TvZ is the big bugbear that TvP is.
Well the changes have to be strong NOW, so that when Zergs figure out the new timings and how to defend them, Terran still has the ability to fight evenly or even create an advantage.
Changes in the meta must be accounted for when thinking about buffs, nerfs and un-nerfs.
Or you just stop that bullshit of Terran getting to push Zerg all game long until Zerg reaches some magical number of mutalisks that one shot PFs and make it a back and forth game instead by giving both parties options to counter anything that the opponent can reach by compositional adjustments.
The mid and late game right now is less balanced than it was before the WM nerf. The only party who gained options post nerf was Zerg, and those options have rendered Terran nearly impotent against late game Zerg armies at the highest level.
The only reason these things are happening is because Terran AOE is not sufficient to punish Zerg, which allows Zerg to retain their gas units with unbelievable efficiency throughout the mid game and into the late game.
Given their ability to reproduce, Zerg creating massive, regenerating Muta deathballs and then making 70+ banelings is NOT okay.
Also, given the community's perceived differences in the amount of micro needed for Zerg needs to combat WMs post nerf, I think most players would agree that it's healthier for the game in the long run if the anti-WM micro from the past was brought back. Maybe you don't like that because it's hard, but so is splitting my army against banelings. There needs to be parity, because right now it doesn't exist.
Then we could finally get rid of this toxic "I need to be able to limit your fun" and "you should have killed me while you had the chance" gameplay. Really, changes in the meta only have to be accounted for for as long as the game gets balanced around timings instead of choices and longrun equilibria.
You're wrong. If the game was balanced purely around timings instead of choices, the professional players would have figured out the game by now. Fortunately this is a strategy game, and choices you make throughout the match have rewards and consequences.
You can't expect Zerg to be able to defend and capitalize on these new timings from the first day. As long as Zergs get more and more efficient at recognizing and capitalizing on each new timing attack, the game is balanced. Each side will eventually make new changes to their strats to combat the changes their counterparts make, until we reach an impasse where one definitely has an advantage (like Zerg does now).
@Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
This change is hard for Zergs to accept because of how much they HATE widow mines.
It would be as though in order to fix a balance problem for Protoss Blizzard decided to buff Psionic Storm. Regardless of whether or not it was needed Terrans would STILL be pissed about it.
On July 16 2014 08:13 Big J wrote: @Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
Isn't it obvious to you yet that Blizzard doesn't give one shit about fixing Mech in a balance patch?
To them, making all 3 races balanced even if it is only with one style is more important than having a diverse array of options for each race, at least when doing balance patches like this.
They fucked up with Mech in Heart of the Swarm. It's not viable and won't be without some major changes that would completely change the metagame in the process. That isn't the kind of thing they are going to do mid-WCS season.
Those of us that still campaign for Mech to become viable are holding out for Legacy of the Void. It's pretty damn clear nothing else is going to be done about it before that.
This is pretty classic Blizzard "let's have each race take turns being strong" balance except it looks like Zerg has to wait a really long time after BL/Infestor.
On July 16 2014 08:17 Cheren wrote: This is pretty classic Blizzard "let's have each race take turns being strong" balance except it looks like Zerg has to wait a really long time after BL/Infestor.
I don't see the Protoss reign of dominance ending on account of this patch.
If anything this is just going to end the ridiculous representation of Terrans in Code S trend, and I'm totally fine with that.
On July 16 2014 08:13 Big J wrote: @Luna: I absolutely dont care about how hard it is to micro against mines. Im not even playing Zerg these weeks.
What bugs me is that this patch tries to give the game parity by buffing one Terran style. All others remain as weak as they are right now. Hellbat/bio/thor? With the new patch, mines are definitely better. Mech? Already worse than bio/mine and profits less. Mech into bio? Wasnt very strong to begin with and biomine is so much better.
Any Terran that doesnt want to parade all day, every day gets left behind. Sorry, no balance for you. Every Zerg that wants to leave his half of the map before 20mins is forced back into allinning. Meanwhile, I still have no clue how I'd deal with mass mutas off of my bio/mine setup, once my opponent has 30 of them.
Isn't it obvious to you yet that Blizzard doesn't give one shit about fixing Mech in a balance patch?
To them, making all 3 races balanced even if it is only with one style is more important than having a diverse array of options for each race, at least when doing balance patches like this.
They fucked up with Mech in Heart of the Swarm. It's not viable and won't be without some major changes that would completely change the metagame in the process. That isn't the kind of thing they are going to do mid-WCS season.
Those of us that still campaign for Mech to become viable are holding out for Legacy of the Void. It's pretty damn clear nothing else is going to be done about it before that.
They are not clever about it. But they did buff banshees, upgrades, hellbats. Even tanks by a tiny bit. Of course their idea to make mech viable without really including tanks in their plans is stupid.
But its not only Mech. Bio/tank isnt good either. Any defensive approach with bio just ends with "ahm... And what now?" Give the races longrun parities and stop the "oh fuck i should have attacked" timing balancing. When i play defensive and mine equally, i dont see a reason why i shouldnt be at least on even footing. Regardless of what race i play and play against.
I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
This won't do anything PvT. Protoss that are complaining about this buff should be happy this is the crappy "improvement" Blizzard decided to implement (or revert in this case). This is more of a "psychological" change than anything. Just like when they buffed the tank to .0000002 faster speed, it made Terran's feel like they were getting something when, in fact, they were headed down the worst slump in SC2 history. This change does absolutely nothing to the metagame. When a timewarp is cast, it is usually to "hold" a group of units in one spot. It doesn't need more than 10 seconds to do its job. Terran just avoids the Timewarp after the first cast anyway. I'm now convinced we'll see the continued Toss deathball march until LoTV. I guess I'll have to endure the -- 2-base, 2-forge, while teching to colo and researching storm with 1-stalker and a sentry while defending with PO -- Tosses.
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I greatly disaprove of David Kim, but the fact that he finally reverted one of the many bad changes shows that he's not an arrogant idiot, just really bad at his job. By the way is this the first time in SC2 history we get a complete nerf reversal?
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I think the community becomes upset when they have clearly voiced their concerns and suggestions for months and Blizzard does quite the opposite after receiving constructive criticism. It was clear from many "Pro" input that mid game is NOT the issue; in fact, it is Terran late game and early game harass against races like Protoss. So what do they do? They decide to look at changes to the WM and medivac - two clearly mid game units - which do not help in the late game at all (i.e. against HT, archon, stalker, Colo) deathball.
Also, I think it says a lot that David Kim (aka Dayvie) has stopped playing the game altogether. That is like owning a Burger stand and not eating meat.
This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
On July 16 2014 08:58 Universum wrote: I`m gonna put a big target on my head right now, but I really need to say this. Everytime there is a thread like this one (including general balance discussion) the quality of the posts goes down a lot. I`m saddened to see that people are more inclined to flaming Blizzard and present their opinion as being the only true opinion (Sometimes claiming they represent the vast majority of people playing the game) then to just see this effort as a possible step in the right direction.
What I mean by that is that there`s a big difference in attitude between saying << F**k David Kim >>; << those changes are bullshit ! >> ; << Quote: you really think that ? that`s very stupid everyone knows it`s X the problem >> and approaching the situation with a bit more of a positive vibe. << I disagree with what David Kim`s proposed, but I`ll let more than a few days of testing to go by see how it pans out >>; << I don`t think these changes will improve the gameplay experience >> (No usage of absolutes); <<Quote: I see what you mean, but I think X is much more of a problem because ... >>.
I know it`s the nature of the internet nowadays and forums in general, but Team Liquid to me was a lot better to read/skim through when I was lurking several years back. In my opinion, this negative attitude (Not by all posters of course ) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
PS: You might not agree with David Kim`s approach to balancing the game, but flaming the person and EVERYTHING he ever did is just immature. If you were in his position and had some much responsabilities you might just do worst
I think the community becomes upset when they have clearly voiced their concerns and suggestions for months and Blizzard does quite the opposite after receiving constructive criticism.
If you go back you're going to find about 2000 quotes from the community about how they should revert the mine to the old mine, but they're never going to do it because that would be admitting mistakes. You will also find that many of these posts claimed support from "the community". At this point, "the community" has said so much about so many problems that it should be kind of hard to pretend it has a clear view on anything. I agree with you about what the changes should be, or should have been. I also think it should have been kind of obvious. But let's not pretend like there was a consensus and Blizzard is ignoring it.
I'm OK with buffing Terran mid game against zerg to account for late game because of the fun factor. TvZ was pretty awesome at the height of the mmmm, especially after the overlord buff had zergs figuring it out more so. I have no idea why anyone would say that was bland, it was the fastest paced and most insane micro in any version of the game. I'm OK there and I think this "fixes" TvZ pretty well.
I'm just not sure about TvP and how this really does anything. In this thread I've seen a lot of people say how "crazy good" mines will be vs protoss....... does anyone have even a single game they can show me where the mine is considered effective in late game TvP? Are these people just guessing? Can the mine really do jack anything vs screen blanketing storms and zealots that never die, backed up by long range AOE killing machines? I don't see it. And the issue is the Planetary Nexus, not the mine... as we've been saying forever.
Can someone explain why anyone would think this mine change greatly effects TvP with any kind of examples or proof?
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
The undisputed #1 Terran in the world beat a top 10 Protoss (what rank is herO this month among HerO, Stardust, San, MC, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Rain, Classic, Dear, Trap, and PigBaby?) in a single game.
Rain's nightmare has finally come to pass! Protoss is unplayable!
EPT
) just affects the community in a toxic way. There you go, had to say it.
