On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I applaud their continued efforts to make widow mines return to their former glory. Blizzard, you have my thanks. I'll reserve the rest of my comments on the changes when I have more time to try out TvP against blink/timewarp and TvZ 4M+thor compositions.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly.
i'm talking mainly about proxy, yes.
yes, it's theoretically scoutable. but you'll have to scout it in time too. it's really really difficult... and no fun at all if >50% of your TvPs are about scouting their hidden bullshit.
Actually, the only time I actually like TvP lately is when they try bullshit builds like oracles or blink all-ins .
Every other game is just Toss building Colossi which is boring. The matchup was a lot more fun when Toss was doing templar builds.
However, when I'm Toss, I find it REALLY hard to beat a player who gets a bunch of widow mines if I'm going templar - which is I suspect why I never see it now in TvP.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
The undisputed #1 Terran in the world beat a top 10 Protoss (what rank is herO this month among HerO, Stardust, San, MC, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Rain, Classic, Dear, Trap, and PigBaby?) in a single game.
Rain's nightmare has finally come to pass! Protoss is unplayable!
Why are you even naming EU/NA ones? Do you think they are remotely close to herO, rain, zest? Also it was really a golden age. A race coloured mostly of a golden tone just won everything.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
It's not the first time they reverted a change back.. The first was the AS Hydra buff, though there might've been something else already before..
But - they're certainly out of touch lately.. TW is getting nerfed to oblivion.. will anyone use it ? - like literally - will anyone use that thing, or just keep the energy and use it for a recal or PO
I don't get the need to do strong buffs to the mine either.. but well.. i'm no pro
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
On July 16 2014 14:46 VArsovskiSC wrote: It's not the first time they reverted a change back.. The first was the AS Hydra buff, though there might've been something else already before..
But - they're certainly out of touch lately.. TW is getting nerfed to oblivion.. will anyone use it ? - like literally - will anyone use that thing, or just keep the energy and use it for a recal or PO
I don't get the need to do strong buffs to the mine either.. but well.. i'm no pro
Hey, I am a protoss army, I feel strong, I want to take this fight! I'll use timewarp! Seriously though. It will be used the same times it is used now (offensively).
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote: Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
OverBuff to Widow Mines and OverNerf to Time Warp... well done Blizz...
The main problem is Photon Over and they are skipping it? Is it for real? WTF are they thinking? Also, the radiius of the WM is still huge with that damage, I am expecting a reduction on it ASAP.
Oh God, I just don't want to go back to the old days where WM was stupidly broken and the streams were so boring and unfair on TvZ
On the other hand, Protoss will simply turtle a little more and get Obs + Colossi, then they will laugh at WM no matter if they do 400 insta damage or 4...
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
I think a simple missile turrets no longer requiring an ebay would to wonder for early game terran.
that actually sounds great... cool suggestion.
i dont see any real negative sides for this buff.
Actually, a good solution would be the reduction of the ebay's build time (or the turret's). This could improve early game aggression for the Terran (since upgrades would be done quicker) and their defense capabilities...
I don't understand the approach of Blizzard in buffing/nerfing. They are always only tweaking small numbers (most often damage output) to balance statistics. That may be the way to make a game balanced but is not the way to make it enjoyable. Why would you want to buff the widow mine? You can do a lot of other things - change the creep mechanics (e.g. make it recede faster), change overcharge (make it impossible to cast on two nexus at a time instead of nerfing the duration zzz).
The unwillingness to change unit design will lead to a total stalemate in some matchups (we are pretty close to it in tvz anyways, even though it is slightly zerg favored at the moment - no party really has the power to attack the opponent and finish him). Is that what we want to see? Pro games getting dragged out for 20 additional minutes even though you know one player is a bit ahead and will win but can't do so before being maxed out? As in zvz roach wars?
if the widow mine changes go through I will likely pass on sc2 until next expansion at least in my opinion widow mines ruin TvZ which was the best matchup to play and watch prior to infestors becoming a thing widow mines are boring to watch and not fun to play against the only tension when watching comes from the knowledge that by no skill on the terran's part aside from burrowing a widow mine the game can end if the zerg isn't paying attention for one second Basically imagine if you as a terran faced burrowed banelings every single game, banelings that shot air and didn't die until you killed them and a single one could wipe out half your army while you are busy calling down mules Maybe they are balanced - i think they are as it stands for ZvT anyway - or maybe not I don't really care because for me its just not a fun or interesting unit. with the buff there is no reason to ever get tanks again TT
Widow Mines are the least enjoyable unit in the game bar none. Please stops obsessing about it, replace it with something enjoyable and nerf it into oblivion.
EPT
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