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On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote:
10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
seconded. it better cost only 50 energy. it takes 90 seconds to get 50 energy. even with 15 s it should still be 50 energy... at least not 100, jeez
widow mine idk. jakji is tearing it up right now in iem as i write this with widow mines. against true.
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On July 16 2014 18:07 fenix404 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote:
10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration. seconded. it better cost only 50 energy. it takes 90 seconds to get 50 energy. even with 15 s it should still be 50 energy... at least not 100, jeez widow mine idk. jakji is tearing it up right now in iem as i write this with widow mines. against true.
You realise that you could cast 4 timewarps then? That would be a huge buff instead of a nerf, since nobody stands in a timewarp for 30 seconds anyway.
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I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
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Italy12247 Posts
On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me.
Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
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Poland3764 Posts
On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote:
I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off 
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On July 16 2014 18:29 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me. Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing!
From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran.
EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
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On July 16 2014 01:45 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +
Thank you for helping us playtest the current test map. From our own testing and the feedback we’ve gathered so far, here are our current thoughts on the changes:
Thor AA prioritization change
This is a good change that’s simple and clean. It’s a minor improvement to players who aren’t able to micro Thors against Mutalisks in combat, and the general usage makes more sense with this change.
Time Warp duration decrease
The effects of this change definitely seem noticeable, but we’d like to push this nerf slightly further.
Widow Mine splash radius increase
The splash radius of 2 seems too much against Protoss worker lines. Also, we wonder if the full damage against Zerg being only an increase of 0.25 is too little.
So we’d like to make further adjustments and see if we can push some of these changes as much as possible. The changes we’d like to try next on the balance test map are:
Widow Mine
Widow Mine going back to full splash damage and a 1.75 radius. (But they would still keep the +shields damage)
This lessens its power against Probes, returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game.
Time Warp
Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Obviously, these are just balance test map changes and part of the ongoing testing process. Nothing is final yet, so please share your thoughts after having playtested the current balance test map changes as well as the upcoming changes detailed in this post.
Thank you.
Link
First they change the widow mine to open up diversity because all Terran did for the first half of HOTS was 3 base rally MMMM until the Zerg died. So now they are saying, screw diversity and making the same option to be done to Protoss as well as Zerg? Every single match-up Terran plays is now going to be a non-stop three base death push with absolutely zero diversity.
The Thor buff shouldn't go through because you are just removing even more micro from the game. It is bad enough when I play players that sit on three-four bases until they max out mech, turrets, and PF's, but now you are making it easier for them to push with this barely microed army? The Time Warp nerf is just useless because everything will be dead within the Time Warp five seconds after its dropped.
How about we get a buff to Mech that makes it viable aside from late game 200/200 pushes? How about unit separation gets added into the game so all races have an easier time splitting units? This buff alone would make Terran late game bio more viable.
How about Zerg gets options to harass before they get late game T3 3/3 that isn't an all-in? How about Zerg gets a nerf to the swarm host and a buff in other areas so I'm not stuck massing this boring unit in every match-up once a death ball gets too large? How about they nerf something about Protoss that is too useful, like Recall or Photon Overcharge? There are so many options and angles you could go to and they always pick literally the worst band-aid patches possible.
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Italy12247 Posts
On July 16 2014 18:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 18:29 Teoita wrote:On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me. Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing! From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran. EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech.
edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
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On July 16 2014 18:44 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote:
I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right. You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off
aka use Queens for that job.
On July 16 2014 18:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 18:29 Teoita wrote:On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me. Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing! From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran. EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle?
Protoss has all the tools to beat mech with superior mobility. They just don't have to do that because a simple a-click is enough. Pretty sad.
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How about instead of muta regen we just buff the queen's transfuse ability, but also change it in a way so that it cannot be spammed to make a single unit immortal? Like a decreased cost, but regen over time?
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On July 16 2014 19:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 18:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 16 2014 18:29 Teoita wrote:On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me. Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing! From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran. EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle? I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech. edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!"
I understand that but i disagree with comparing defensive colossus play with mech. There is nothing wrong with defensive play + harass. The problem i and maybe some other people have with Colossus play is how the army itself functions and looks. Units on top of units (if you have some air then you get a 3 layer unit cluster fuck) with pedestrian positioning and micro requirements (and opportunities for that matter) that labels it as a "1 a army". Mech is nothing like that! (Siege Tank based mech).
Colossus play is hated because the Colossus as a unit is hated, not the defensive nature of the strat.
As far as a potential Tank buff making mech vs mech the only viable option, i personally thing it should be an acceptable loss if it means you open up new strategies and options in 2 other MUs, the non mirror ones no less. Besides, with the strength of the Medivac and Marauders plus map design, i doubt bio will ever be unplayable TvT. It might take more skill then it takes now, but so what?
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I do understand one thing, what ever the balance patch they do today, they have to do it all over again on Lotv. For example if they buff tank, then there is a a new unit that sync well with tank, they will have to nerf it again eventually. Not that i happy with curent situation but i do understand why they are not giving us big balance patch or change some mechanic of the game. Imagine trying to balance vanila sc before bw.
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Netherlands4522 Posts
Thor change is so bad, it removes micro from the equation, why anyone would ever want to make the game less fun to play / remove micro :/
if both this change and the widow mine change makes it in, we'll now have stronger widow mines that cant be picked off by muta flocks because thor will auto-shoot mutas in the face
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Italy12247 Posts
On July 16 2014 20:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 19:01 Teoita wrote:On July 16 2014 18:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 16 2014 18:29 Teoita wrote:On July 16 2014 12:23 robertpires87 wrote:
Terran cannot mech against Protoss and now the widow mine renders the templar style ineffectual. It is pretty fair to me. Yeah let's turn PvT into the most boring non mirror because mech isn't viable! Wohoo!! Then, let's make mech viable so terran players can go full protoss (or full infestor broolord, up to personal preference) and sit there for half an hour doing nothing! From the Terran perspective it is already the most boring non mirror MU. The strategy is literally chosen for you the moment you picked Terran. EDIT: And what's the problem with Terran having viable defensive strategies (mech)? Should it be only Protoss that can go full aggression and turtle? I'm just pointing out that it's contraddictory to ask for a matchup that's less boring (because the terran would have more options), by protoss to turtle with colossi (which make for much worse games than templar builds) and letting terran turtle with mech. edit: it's just like the discussion on buffing the tank: "buff the tank so that mech is more viable!" "yeah but then tvt becomes only mech vs mech, and we dont want that!" I understand that but i disagree with comparing defensive colossus play with mech. There is nothing wrong with defensive play + harass. The problem i and maybe some other people have with Colossus play is how the army itself functions and looks. Units on top of units (if you have some air then you get a 3 layer unit cluster fuck) with pedestrian positioning and micro requirements (and opportunities for that matter) that labels it as a "1 a army". Mech is nothing like that! (Siege Tank based mech). Colossus play is hated because the Colossus as a unit is hated, not the defensive nature of the strat. As far as a potential Tank buff making mech vs mech the only viable option, i personally thing it should be an acceptable loss if it means you open up new strategies and options in 2 other MUs, the non mirror ones no less. Besides, with the strength of the Medivac and Marauders plus map design, i doubt bio will ever be unplayable TvT. It might take more skill then it takes now, but so what?
Sure, but i feel like a huge reason why people enjoy mech is simply beause it's so rare outside of TvT. The tank is definitely a better unit than the colossus, but at the end of the day the playstyle of sitting on 3/4 bases and maxing on raven/tank/viking (or just a ground based mech army really) isn't all that different from Protoss or Zerg turtling. The positional requirements for tanks and colossi aren't all that different (get your expensive units caught out of position once and you die), and neither is the micro involved (focus on priority targets, that's it). Sure tanks are/look better for it, my point is that at the end of the day the difference isn't that huge.
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Overseers might see more use though, as Thors will likely prioritize them as well.
Send in the Overseer first and then the Mutas. Thor shot will be wasted.
That said, I doubt you'd want to pick off Mines that are being guarded by a Thor anyway.
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I think they should buff the non siege mode, siege tank. Give it proper micro and a damage boost so it isn't an irrelevant sidephase.
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On July 16 2014 21:02 Thezzy wrote:
Overseers might see more use though, as Thors will likely prioritize them as well.
Send in the Overseer first and then the Mutas. Thor shot will be wasted.
That said, I doubt you'd want to pick off Mines that are being guarded by a Thor anyway.
It already shoots the overseer if it goes in first. It will still shoot zerglings if they go in first.
As far as I understand, the only change is that when a new target is acquired, it prioritizes air over ground.
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People are so biased when making criticisms about the balance test maps, almost selfish like. Thor change I think is fine.....Terran is already micro intensive, fixing Thor AI and having it prioritize mutas are not taking away micro........
I think the Mine Revert change is fine in PVZ, I don't see Blizzard making major design changes anyways until next expac.
I think Protoss can manage to live with out 1 build order and play style for a while.......the amount of whining about not being able to open with greedy Templar builds gets old. Terran needs something to hold them over untill next expac where Blizzard can make drastic changes for all 3 races.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On July 16 2014 21:08 Saechiis wrote:
I think they should buff the non siege mode, siege tank. Give it proper micro and a damage boost so it isn't an irrelevant sidephase.
yeah, maybe let it fire while moving?
could promote tanks without promoting turtling
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EPT
