For the record, here are all the balance changes since Blizzcon 2013, assuming these changes go through:
TvP:
Positive Terran Changes: -MSC vision is now 9 instead of 14 -Widow mines do more damage to shields -Time Warp is now 10 seconds and 100 energy instead of 30 seconds and 75 energy. -Ghosts start with the energy upgrade.
Positive Protoss Changes: -Oracles are faster.
TvZ:
Positive Terran Changes: -Tanks shoot faster -Mech upgrades are combined -Hellbats can be transformed without an upgrade -Thors prioritize AA attacks
Positive Zerg Changes: -Roach and Hydra buffs for players who play that style, but nothing for muta/ling/bane.
PvZ changes have been more minor, with buffs to roach/hydra and "Units that burrow or cloak while under the effects of Revelation will once again be revealed after unburrowing or uncloaking." to help Protoss against Swarm Hosts.
So assuming that this is the last major balance patch before Blizzcon, it's a fact that Terran will be stronger at Blizzcon 2014 than at Blizzcon 2013.
On July 16 2014 03:07 emidanRKO wrote: I feel like too many people are hardcore Day9 followers here.
You seriously think that Widow Mines are "ridiculous" against chargelots? Have you not been watching mine-based TvPs play out for the past months? Have you seen how bad a protoss has to micro in order to actually suffer from that?
This is a great change, and with the added bonus of not removing the extra shield damage, I think protoss at all levels will suddenly be much harder to play against terran. A much needed change...but I still feel like something needs to be done about tanks and/or immortals to make mech much more viable. Although Blizzard doesn't seem to be going in that direction whatsoever... In a game where the protoss basically knows you will go a particular tech route, and only needs to know whether you are going to attack or not, it's not very fair scouting-wise since all he has to do is check your number of barracks. Hell, you can basically assume aggression, since late-game is auto screwed if you decided to go bio into mid-game.
Day9 followers? If you played a zealot archon based strategy you would understand that it's just not possible to pull off anymore unless the Terran goes for a very delayed factory and even then you will have only a narrow window to do damage. Chargelots cannot be microed like zerglings and sacrificing one or two zealots to set off a mine is not supply efficient (like it is with lings). I think the mine buff was a good decision. Chargelot archon was super duper easy to pull off pre-patch. Now it's more of a niche build.
These proposed changes are just getting silly. I think the balance team should be forbidden from making patches until they figure out what is actually wrong with their game.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
This post is supported by the fact that Terran swept all of the WCS titles and Protoss didn't win a single one. But the best Terran in the world (the only one to get to Ro8 Code S) beat a Protoss in one game, it must all be balanced right?
Good to know that Innovation, Flash, bbyong, and Supernova are chobo Terrans that have been doing the same thing since WoL.
On July 16 2014 02:40 PineapplePizza wrote: This is so damn weird.
They gut punch the mine and throw out this hillariously miniscule 0.2 attack speed buff for the tank in the name of 'variety'...
...then after completely ignoring the game until a particular megathread appears, they decide for the first time in sc2 history to revert a bad patch that was poorly received for being random and unnecessary...
thus, all those months of Code B Flash were completely for naught.
We'll go back to slightly Terran-favored, incredibly-bitchy Zergs and nonstop biomine till lotv beta in october or something.
You mean it'll change from the now bitchy terrans? Woohoo!
as a terran player, this mine buff seems kind of ridiculous against protoss. I hope they revert the +shield damage. It's a pity that we dont see templar play anymore, and I think this isn't in the right direction if we want to see those builds return
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
The problem is that Terrans are just so used to always beating Protoss from WoL days that now that the game is balanced, Terrans think it is unbalanced.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
No, you picked THE best Terran in the world on a map that allows drop play easily. Besides, one Terran beating one Protoss doesn't mean that the game is balanced, it just means that Maru won a match.
Factory block at the third is creative? If you mean that it forces the Protoss to choose to double expand or all-in, sure. But Nexus snipes are hardly the norm, and the only reason that herO couldn't just walk over with a couple of gateway units and destroy it was because his economy was shattered because he hadn't commited enough of his tech units to negating the double drop in his main.
Boosting Marauders into Colossus isn't new, but wouldn't have been possible had herO played better, either. herO gave several Stalkers away in defense of his main Nexus during the double drop, and had he brought over the Colossus and Sentries to help with his defense (instead of holding them at his natural for an attack that never came; he overestimated Maru's production) he would likely retained those units. If those Stalkers are alive, the battle swings highly into his favor, and he retains the Colossi as 5-6 Stalkers would provide enough anti-air to snipe Medivacs while they are boosting.
herO played very badly here, and of course if a Protoss plays very badly then he's going to get beaten by a player of Maru's caliber. That doesn't mean, however, that "the game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level." Everyone wants the game to be balanced, but there is a strong sentiment with quantifiable evidence that Protoss has enjoyed a significant advantage over Terran in the early and late games for over half a year now.
You really should stop with the balance whine and drop the martyrdom complex.
Btw, TvP in WOL had been even or slightly in favor of Protoss since early 2012. Squirtle, Naniwa, Creator and Parting ushered in a new era of Protoss around the 2nd 2012 GSL season, and Protoss has never significantly fallen off since, especially with the arrival of the more skilled KeSPA Protoss.
On July 16 2014 11:26 Vindicare605 wrote: This pedrac guy is an obvious troll. less than 300 posts and posts that are THIS crazy. He's trolling. Just ignore him.
On July 16 2014 10:58 Perdac Curall wrote: The problem is that Terrans are just so used to always beating Protoss from WoL days that now that the game is balanced, Terrans think it is unbalanced.
On July 16 2014 11:26 Vindicare605 wrote: This pedrac guy is an obvious troll. less than 300 posts and posts that are THIS crazy. He's trolling. Just ignore him.
Are you trying to deligitimize my new signature?
No not at all, just because a troll said something outlandish and ridiculous doesn't make it less sig worthy.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
I picked one of the best Terrans in the world playing one of the best Protosses in the world, on a balanced map, because I believe in good examples. Apparently crushing one of the best Protosses on earth is a terrible example of Terran being competitive. With logic like that, it is little wonder articles like ZParcraft are so popular with lower level Terrans.
The 14CC was of little importance. What was hardly standard, and quite creative, was things like factory block at the Protoss third, speed medivac drops on top of colossi (who needs vikings.) All of which hints at possibilities creative Terrans are only beginning to discover. The problem is whiny, uncreative Terrans who only want to get MMM, stim and stutter step to victory before 14 minutes. If Protoss attacks before then, imbalanced. If Protoss defends and takes it into the late game, imbalanced. The game has never been more balanced than it is now at the highest level, and these nerfs and buffs are only going to revert the game to WoL days, but ZTarcraft is fine, as long as Protoss isnt winning, its balanced for these Terrans who come on forums and whine in posts about ZParcraft instead of imagining new strats like Maru.
Stop digging the hole, bro. No one who's honest would claim that PvT is balanced right now.
Hell if they just reverted the game to the way it was at the beginning of HOTS it would be fine probably. Hellbat drops were brutal but its not like other races don't have other ways of being other just as abusive. I like the mine change a lot though, and I do agree that time warp negates micro too much.
On July 16 2014 12:02 Redrot wrote: Hell if they just reverted the game to the way it was at the beginning of HOTS it would be fine probably. Hellbat drops were brutal but its not like other races don't have other ways of being other just as abusive. I like the mine change a lot though, and I do agree that time warp negates micro too much.
so tell me how zerg can be abusive. and dont do the silver talk by saying mass baneling op.
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
This post is supported by the fact that Terran swept all of the WCS titles and Protoss didn't win a single one. But the best Terran in the world (the only one to get to Ro8 Code S) beat a Protoss in one game, it must all be balanced right?
Good to know that Innovation, Flash, bbyong, and Supernova are chobo Terrans that have been doing the same thing since WoL.
You don't get it, do you? The game will never be balanced through multiple iteration of these "patches". A true balance comes in the form of player skills, innovation, and strategies. The fact is that even after these proposed patches go through, the game will still be unbalanced to many viewers.
Just for the record, Flash has already stated that he does not want any changes to the current state of Terran.
EPT
