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On May 25 2014 06:59 Superbanana wrote:
Zerg player here.
I do agree terran is weak in TvZ right now, but i always though it was the map pool.
So a terran buff is needed if zerg favoured maps are made every season. I don't think there is imbalance in maps where securing a fourth is hard.
Those changes are quite big for the early game when terran is not weak at all, and the mid/late game stays the same...
There is a possibility that the first medivac push gets too strong with hellbat support, potentialy making the matchup strongly favoured for terran in small maps. We will see.
It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
I disagree with this,
Terran was not strong in the early game before, and that's why zergs were able to macro so easily and build up those ridiculous muta flocks. Terran needed a way to keep zergs honest in the early game and check their greed, which the threat of a quick hellbat timing will do. And this does have a direct impact on the mid/late game because it will allow Terran to enter the later stages of the game on a more equal footing with Zerg. It also allows the threat of late game hellion runbys turning into hellbat building kill squads, which also helps to give Terran a threat of map control.
I'm a Zerg btw..
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On May 26 2014 00:00 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play. Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
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On May 25 2014 05:40 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 02:21 imrusty269 wrote:
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
Banelings are a worst tech choice than roach*. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
Then try to surround Terran army from running your zerglings behind. Good Zergs should have enough creep spread in the first 10 minutes to pull it off. Who knows, maybe this will affect the map making so that 3rd and 4th are more open than what they are currently so turtle play is deterred. That then in turn benefit Zergs.
Or think of Roach Warren as a safety tax and just build one blindly if your scouting fails. D. Kim stated that while TvZ battles are balanced Zergs have a slight upper hand in remaxing due to better economy, so Blizzard is looking to slow down Zergs a little bit. Forcing Roach Warren (again, only when you fail to scout or you scout mass Hellions/Hellbats) from Zergs may be a small tweak to achieve that goal than any other nerfs/buffs that might have bigger consequences (e.g. Muta nerf).
Really, I think Zergs (and Terrans) should give this a shot before complaining with theories.
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Want to say that I'm actually really liking the removal of the hellion transformation upgrade. If you keep your existing hellions alive earlygame, you can morph those in for your initial push, and they are killer at tanking and will be healed by those medivacs.
This is coming from someone who never makes hellbats so it's interesting to have them for once.
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On May 26 2014 08:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 00:00 RaZorwire wrote:On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play. Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps. I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
I agree, I also think time warp is pretty boring, should maybe be replaced
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On May 26 2014 08:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 00:00 RaZorwire wrote:On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play. Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps. I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
I agree. I've been wanting TW to be an upgrade for a long time. It's too powerful a spell for MSC to have straight off the bat.
Also, I like maps where certain strategies are favoured. The last thing I want are just "safe" and "standard" maps.
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On May 26 2014 07:33 Survivor61316 wrote:
Terran was not strong in the early game before, and that's why zergs were able to macro so easily and build up those ridiculous muta flocks. Terran needed a way to keep zergs honest in the early game and check their greed, which the threat of a quick hellbat timing will do. And this does have a direct impact on the mid/late game because it will allow Terran to enter the later stages of the game on a more equal footing with Zerg. It also allows the threat of late game hellion runbys turning into hellbat building kill squads, which also helps to give Terran a threat of map control.
I'm a Zerg btw..
Indeed, forcing zerg to be less greedy early on does affect mid-late game. But, as i said, i think terran is weak on current map pool. In other seasons we would always see a terran putting some hard pressure on zerg fourth and harassing with drops. This is out of the meta mostly because the maps do not favour this play. Now in a balaced map (or terran favoured map) the early game buff may prove to be too much. But i think its going to be ok in the end.
Maybe we will see more defensive roaches or blind roach warren.
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what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard...
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch  )
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On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote:what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
What drivel... It's pretty clear you don't play this game at all.
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On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote:what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
When i was reading ur post, BL-Infestor era came into my mind. I wonder why... :D
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I´m still thinking that SC2 needs more balance changes to be more funny to play/watch (more diversity and less "never-used" units) but I like this patch specially the Z part, when I read about their concerns of ZvZ I was specting some change to the viper like "abducts works against everything but shielded units and mech units only on fridays" but giving Frenzied to BL makes sense and it´s clean
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this is excellent: also High Templars are on strike every other day and medivacs have a no fly zone on maps monday through thursday.
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On May 26 2014 20:55 Mojito99 wrote:
this is excellent: also High Templars are on strike every other day and medivacs have a no fly zone on maps monday through thursday.
This will also add a certain amount of luck into the game which according to the "The future of RTS games" threads is what is needed to revitalise the genre .
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Really dislike the changes, but the zerg changes do the trick in a pretty ugly fashion though. And I guess others had different experiences on the test maps for the hellbat part, I pretty much could do the exact same thing, why servos were added in the first place (but way to expensive). On the plus side the Terran part is a balance reversal. Meaning that things they touched once doesn't seem to be irreversible anymore. And yes I still remember the Bunker.
They could have made the servos to remove the transformation from the game though, just to bring it back when Terran gets to weak. That would explain the high cost of the upgrade.
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On May 26 2014 20:55 Mojito99 wrote:
this is excellent: also High Templars are on strike every other day and medivacs have a no fly zone on maps monday through thursday.
Haha :D While I agree that they are becoming a bit too matchup specific on the balance changes, if it makes for a better game, I think it's fine.
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On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote:what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
How would you know? Its pretty clear from your post that you've neither watched nor played this game.
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mhhhm. i am feeling a big comeback of 2 base scv pulls in tvp.
chargelot/storm openings was what got that out of fashion and now that you can maybe open hellion centric and have 8-10 hellbats to tank with a marauder heavy force + some splits you can live through those 3-4 storms, tank the zealots and just roflstomp over a not properly defended protoss
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On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote:what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
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On May 27 2014 04:01 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote:what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch ) Um what game are you playing? Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race? Show nested quote +now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed. It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
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EPT
