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On May 25 2014 02:21 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere. Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
Banelings are a worst tech choice than roach*. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
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Having to use that kind of ad hoc patching on broodlord would tend to indicate design failures earlier in the process; I wish they'd address those instead, but this will suffice for now.
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Cool patch, changes seem legitimate
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On May 25 2014 05:40 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 02:21 imrusty269 wrote:On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere. Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine. Banelings are a worst tech choice than baneling. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
Also, I'd assume that gas spent into banelings or roaches means less gas for mutas.
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stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
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Zerg player here.
I do agree terran is weak in TvZ right now, but i always though it was the map pool.
So a terran buff is needed if zerg favoured maps are made every season. I don't think there is imbalance in maps where securing a fourth is hard.
Those changes are quite big for the early game when terran is not weak at all, and the mid/late game stays the same...
There is a possibility that the first medivac push gets too strong with hellbat support, potentialy making the matchup strongly favoured for terran in small maps. We will see.
It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
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On May 25 2014 06:59 Superbanana wrote:
It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
the entire zerg race is a clusterfuck of biological and scientific impossibility, but brood lord resisting abducts bothers you from a logical standpoint?
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This makes blueflame hellbat drops easier. I like that.
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On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Patch 6 (version 0.8.0.14593)
Build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.
Patch 16 (version 0.19.0.15976) Undocumented Changes
Bunker build time increased from 30 to 40.
Patch 17 (version 0.20.0.16036)
Bunker build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.
Patch 1.1.0
Build time increased from 30 to 35.
Patch 1.3.0
Build time increased from 35 to 40.
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On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
I say the truth you will need to go roach after the patch in the early stage at every TvZ.
Maybe you have forgot (or T bias, you refuse to admit) what was TvZ with Hellbat :
http://sc2casts.com/cast12587-TLO-vs-IMMvp-Best-of-5-All-in-1-video-2013-WCS-Europe-Quarter-Finals
TLO defending hellbat with no roach, but baneling. You can see even if it can survive a bit, he fastly drop on supply because it can't have cost effective trade with baneling.
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On May 25 2014 06:07 zlefin wrote:
Having to use that kind of ad hoc patching on broodlord would tend to indicate design failures earlier in the process; I wish they'd address those instead, but this will suffice for now.
By your logic the game should be released in an almost perfect condition and never require any patching other than bug fixes due to good design. I haven't seen such a game for long long years.
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Well the thing is that if you scout anything along the lines of reactored hellions or blue flame, there is no question of if terran is making an armoury for hellbats but when.
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I am very interested to see what kind of timing terran would make out of this patch.
Mass bfhellion +1 atk into mass hellbat?
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On May 25 2014 20:07 ETisME wrote:
I am very interested to see what kind of timing terran would make out of this patch.
Mass bfhellion +1 atk into mass hellbat?
mech defense +1 is actually more viable as bbyong showed!
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On May 25 2014 02:21 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere. Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
I've stuffed mass and heavy hellbat styles with banes, they do well enough for a few waves. Split them up a bit and move command into them, if a hellbat hits them they detonate on it. Those things clump up hard. It's a little inefficient but not as bad as you'd think. It'll buy plenty of time to get out a better answer. If they're screening marines go at them a few at a time to whittle them down.
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On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
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On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
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On May 26 2014 00:00 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play. Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
Agreed. Anytime we see an imbalance spike, in any match up, the map pool should be the first thing adjusted, rather than units.
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On May 26 2014 03:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 00:00 RaZorwire wrote:On May 25 2014 23:39 Jerom wrote:On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote:
stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make. Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play. Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps. Agreed. Anytime we see an imbalance spike, in any match up, the map pool should be the first thing adjusted, rather than units.
Yeah, I guess the maps play a bigger part than people think, sometimes.
With that said though, I still think the widow mine buff was a good. It gave Terran some much needed diversity in a matchup where they were otherwise forced to play pretty similar most of the time.
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EPT
