Over the past few weeks, we’ve updated our Balance Test Map with different changes aimed at addressing Terran and Zerg balance concerns. After gathering and reviewing feedback on these changes, we’re ready to move forward with a new balance update. You can expect to see the following adjustments applied to Heart of the Swarm multiplayer today.
Terran
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Zerg
Brood Lord gains the Frenzied ability
Frenzied is changed to also be immune to movement altering abilities
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum posts on both the Terran and Zerg changes.
Thank you very much for all of your feedback on the proposed balance changes. Your thoughts and playtesting helped shape this update, and we hope you’ll continue to participate in future balance testing.
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
The transformation buff is probably going to make a bunch of timings possible where u mass hellions and get like 1 thor out and just roll zergs who go for roaches
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that basically makes Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Why doesn't this abilty affect Time Warp btw? Never got that one :-?
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that basically makes Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Why doesn't this abilty affect Time Warp btw? Never got that one :-?
It does? Pretty sure that Ultras aren't slowed at all in the Time Warp. Reason why they might be slower in it is because of Lings and other units being slower and they keep slowing down Ultras since they can't just walk over them.
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that basically makes Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Why doesn't this abilty affect Time Warp btw? Never got that one :-?
Time Warp never affected ultralisk speed
Hmm could we maybe update the OP or something to include what all the "movement altering abilities" are?
Concussive slow, Fungal stun, Time Warp slow, Force Field, Abducts.
It looks to me like the first statement was redundant, someone help me :C
Nope, you need to research an upgrade for Hellions so they could change forms, now you unlock it when you build an Armory, you don't need upgrade anymore.
On May 24 2014 05:45 Holdenintherye wrote: Hmm could we maybe update the OP or something to include what all the "movement altering abilities" are?
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
Chillax
If all massive units were frenzied then Vipers would be almost useless.
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that basically makes Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Why doesn't this abilty affect Time Warp btw? Never got that one :-?
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make Sense lorewise rofl.
Yes, IMO it always felt silly that the "full" Mothership doesn't have this kind of ability.
Broodlords immune to abducts sounds big although I don't recall the last time I've seen a Broodlord in a ZvZ. Truth be told, I usually fall asleep during the inevitable Roach V Roach wars
Time warp, fungal, concussive shell, forcefield, and abducts are all movement altering spells.
They aren't, because it is said that Frenzy now also affects movement altering spells, and Ultras were immune to Fungal, Concussive Shell and Time Warps, but weren't immune to Abduct. They are now immune to Abduct too.
@Existor, I was talking only about movement altering spells, Fungal isn't one of them.
Now only Swarmhosts need "Frenzied" and we have 2011 ^^
Seriously interested how this will change the game. Hope we will not see even more long Zerg games now (Swarmhosts + Broodlords :/ ) Hellion change seems to be good, guesse it will change TvZ earlygame...(and maybe TvT)?
Forcefield isn't destroyed or affected by Frenzied.
Forcefield (the unit that's placed when you cast the spell) has an auto-cast self-destruct that triggers whenever a ground unit with the 'massive' tag gets within melee range of it. So if you gave Frenzied to a baneling, it could not blow through forcefields no matter how cool that might be.
Blizzard said earlier that they didn't want to give units special abilities that make no sense to balance the game... broodlords not being abducted but the mothership can be? logic
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
Chillax
If all massive units were frenzied then Vipers would be almost useless.
Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
That way you can fix the issue with MS being abducted. But, maybe I'm just high off of Sharpies from white board writing all day. -____-
On May 24 2014 06:16 A.Alm wrote: Blizzard said earlier that they didn't want to give units special abilities that make no sense to balance the game... broodlords not being abducted but the mothership can be? logic
Well, a Brood Lord can be frenzied. A Mothership can't
On May 24 2014 06:16 GinDo wrote: Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
That way you can fix the issue with MS being abducted. But, maybe I'm just high off of Sharpies from white board writing all day. -____-
So Force Fields won't be destroyed by Colossi and Archons?
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
Chillax
If all massive units were frenzied then Vipers would be almost useless.
Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
That way you can fix the issue with MS being abducted. But, maybe I'm just high off of Sharpies from white board writing all day. -____-
And then just also change bonus damage from Corruptors to just affect specific units, same as Tempest's bonus damage, same as how Concussive Shells work... Things will only get more complicated.
On May 24 2014 06:16 A.Alm wrote: Blizzard said earlier that they didn't want to give units special abilities that make no sense to balance the game... broodlords not being abducted but the mothership can be? logic
Well, a Brood Lord can be frenzied. A Mothership can't
On May 24 2014 06:16 A.Alm wrote: Blizzard said earlier that they didn't want to give units special abilities that make no sense to balance the game... broodlords not being abducted but the mothership can be? logic
It's a tradeoff between intuition and game balance. In this case the latter weighted more.
excited to see blue flame hellion harass into hellbat push vs zerg. There should be a really good timing to win the game.
So fungal doesnt stun broodlords anymore, is that confirmed or is everyone just speculating? i dunno much about zvz, would that be important to counter broodlord turtling?
On May 24 2014 06:16 A.Alm wrote: Blizzard said earlier that they didn't want to give units special abilities that make no sense to balance the game... broodlords not being abducted but the mothership can be? logic
Well, a Brood Lord can be frenzied. A Mothership can't
On May 24 2014 06:16 GinDo wrote: Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
That way you can fix the issue with MS being abducted. But, maybe I'm just high off of Sharpies from white board writing all day. -____-
So Force Fields won't be destroyed by Colossi and Archons?
Thanks for actually reading
Umm... didn't think about that. How about we just remove FF
So you want to remove protoss from competitive play? :D I'd support it fullheartedly!!
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that basically makes Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Why doesn't this abilty affect Time Warp btw? Never got that one :-?
It does? Pretty sure that Ultras aren't slowed at all in the Time Warp. Reason why they might be slower in it is because of Lings and other units being slower and they keep slowing down Ultras since they can't just walk over them.
This made me day dream about ultras being un-restricted by zerglings like collosi and all protoss units... Is that totally ridiculous or would that be a sensible alteration? I think it would make sense for them to be able to do that, intuitively I could see it for all marine, zealot, lings, but I could see how them being able to walk over zealots might be a bit much. But at least to a former diamond player (I know I suck and don't really understand balance) it seems like ultras being pinned behind lings seems kind of silly, especially when you see their proportion in promotional videos (or in-game for that matter)
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
Chillax
If all massive units were frenzied then Vipers would be almost useless.
Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
That way you can fix the issue with MS being abducted. But, maybe I'm just high off of Sharpies from white board writing all day. -____-
No. Massive tage has a bonus damage attribute for a few units. And Colossus need that bonus damage done to them. They need to be able to be microed against since 9 range and AoE attack is really strong. Viper abduct makes that possible.
Mothership isn't even that good. I don't understand why people ever build one. MSC is way better
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
jaeh i always feel unfair when i see that a broodlord seems to be a bigger unit then the mothership xD making the ms not abductable would be a nice help to play it again
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Yes, because otherwise being "frenzied" is completely reasonable, lorewise
On May 24 2014 06:51 Nebuchad wrote: I predict terrans start bitching again in... 4 days
I knew you'd be bitching about Terrans. Hellion hellbat change is to affect TvP how? Blizzard admitted they felt TvP and TvZ was slightly unfavourable for T - something which most reasonable Terrans were raising. Few of the Protoss in TL have been hyper-defensive from day 1 and you still continue to have this judgemental attitude despite the fact that there was merit in the complaints.
On May 24 2014 06:51 Nebuchad wrote: I predict terrans start bitching again in... 4 days
I knew you'd be bitching about Terrans. Hellion hellbat change is to affect TvP how? Blizzard admitted they felt TvP and TvZ was slightly unfavourable for T - something which most reasonable Terrans were raising. Few of the Protoss in TL have been hyper-defensive from day 1 and you still continue to have this judgemental attitude despite the fact that there was merit in the complaints.
It's kind of hard for me to answer this post, it isn't addressed to me at all.
Seems like fine changes, so I'm glad it's proceeding... Though, I honestly do feel that the Mothership needs to have the same privilege (frenzy affect), as abduct eliminates the Mothership pretty much instantly. Or perhaps just make it so abduct only drags it half as far with the MS, so that it isn't a guaranteed snipe....
I -highly- doubt this change will open up that many timings. Hellbats are good, but they are not super good any more. At most, you might see a bit more drop tactics again and hopefully better defenses to the earlier Zerg all-ins.
mothership sees occasional use at pro level in lategame pvz already. if you can't abduct it as zerg you can't kill it and mothership/mass tempest would be literally unbeatable. zvp/pvz endgame is a horrendous mess right now, but it's at least balanced in the sense that both sides have equally abusive styles that roughly even out based on army control and skill
you have to understand that things like the mothership have a very delicate sense of balance and it's hard to make them standard and viable without being OP. it's similar to the nydus worm for zerg - most people think nydus is underused and underpowered, but if you just gave it a straight buff to allow them to get down into main bases it would be immediately gamebreaking. working these things out takes more finesse than "remove zerg's ability to ever kill it without sacrificing 15 corruptors"
On May 24 2014 07:43 Blargh wrote: Or perhaps just make it so abduct only drags it half as far with the MS, so that it isn't a guaranteed snipe....
i've had this exact same idea for a long time and i think it's a pretty good one!
On May 24 2014 07:43 Blargh wrote: Seems like fine changes, so I'm glad it's proceeding... Though, I honestly do feel that the Mothership needs to have the same privilege (frenzy affect), as abduct eliminates the Mothership pretty much instantly. Or perhaps just make it so abduct only drags it half as far with the MS, so that it isn't a guaranteed snipe....
I -highly- doubt this change will open up that many timings. Hellbats are good, but they are not super good any more. At most, you might see a bit more drop tactics again and hopefully better defenses to the earlier Zerg all-ins.
Frankly, I'd also be happy if they gave it back the old Recall to MS (at say an energy cost of 150 or a smaller Recall radius).
A 400/400 unit that just cloaks is one expensive second hand Arbiter.
On May 24 2014 07:52 hfsrj wrote: I think we're gonna see more helion opening in TvP. And marauder/hellbat/medivacs compositions. I believe.
well hellion openings in tvp are viable with good micro, but there's a reason most terrans don't already use hellbat compositions in the midgame. i don't think saving hellions from your opener is going to change the problems with hellbat compositions that make terrans not want to use them. but i'm z, so maybe i'm wrong here?
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
On May 24 2014 07:43 Blargh wrote: Seems like fine changes, so I'm glad it's proceeding... Though, I honestly do feel that the Mothership needs to have the same privilege (frenzy affect), as abduct eliminates the Mothership pretty much instantly. Or perhaps just make it so abduct only drags it half as far with the MS, so that it isn't a guaranteed snipe....
I -highly- doubt this change will open up that many timings. Hellbats are good, but they are not super good any more. At most, you might see a bit more drop tactics again and hopefully better defenses to the earlier Zerg all-ins.
Frankly, I'd also be happy if they gave it back the old Recall to MS (at say an energy cost of 150 or a smaller Recall radius).
A 400/400 unit that just cloaks is one expensive second hand Arbiter.
/broken record.
I think the mothership was never really meant to be a real unit competitively, I think it was meant to be something silly and fun like Nukes, something to fill a weird niche so not every game is the same 4-5 unit types vs the other 4-5 unit types. It's just that sometimes they become a useful important unit and then we have a problem.
On May 24 2014 06:37 WellCrap wrote: I wish they would make it so you can still abuct friendly units, ultralisk harass was really fun with vipers, even if it only happens 1/10000 games.
meh. elevator it ith an overlord. ventral sacks costs about the same as a viper
and you can even abduct the overlord if you really want to be crazy
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Ultras aren't restrained by forcefields not because they have the frenzied ability, but because they're massive units. Same goes with colossi, archons, thors, etc.
I don't see how this balance update can affect any build order... Nobody gets the transformation servos upgrade anyways... Against protoss you still need blueflame to make any use of hellbats... Against zerg you may be able to save 6-8 hellions max to transform them to hellbats when mines and tanks play a bigger role... I dont get it
^^^ Abduct works on tanks, medivacs, vrays, immos, msc. Vipers have blinding cloud, which is stupidly good. Abduct shouldn't pull Thors/BLords/Colossus. They should just make Massive immune to abduct. . .
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote: I don't see how this balance update can affect any build order... Nobody gets the transformation servos upgrade anyways... Against protoss you still need blueflame to make any use of hellbats... Against zerg you may be able to save 6-8 hellions max to transform them to hellbats when mines and tanks play a bigger role... I dont get it
Just steal the build when the Koreans are using it.
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
That would make lots of Protoss immune to Fungal Growth which shouldn't be immune to it, imo. The Protoss death ball would basically just keep on running, even with GOOD FUNGAL GROWTH!
No I'm saying that you make Massive = Frenzy
And then remove Massive tags from collosi and other units.
Chillax
Then you nerf anything else that has +bonus damage v massive.
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote: I don't see how this balance update can affect any build order... Nobody gets the transformation servos upgrade anyways...
that's the point. now it's not an upgrade and you can do it for free since you build an armory in every matchup anyway. investing in an earlier armory isn't as bad as investing in a useless upgrade
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote:Against protoss you still need blueflame to make any use of hellbats...
it's not a tvp patch
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote:Against zerg you may be able to save 6-8 hellions max to transform them to hellbats when mines and tanks play a bigger role... I dont get it
i don't see what tanks have to do with it. you will be able to use the hellbats to drop or put them with your bio push. time will tell whether it makes a difference or not, but having a bunch of hellbats is definitely better than hellions in midgame tvz
this will also encourage terrans to be more cautious with their hellions so they can save them later instead of desperately trying to make them useful by going for risky mineral line runs that get the hellions surrounded and completely fuck terran's map control
On May 24 2014 11:13 Shinespark wrote: I hope gglords replace boring hosts as the zerg late game unit of choice. I mean, I wish ultralisks were used more but I don't see that happening...
what matchup are you talking about? zvz? swarm hosts aren't the unit of choice in zvz and the brood lord patch doesn't affect zvt or zvp at all
On May 24 2014 11:13 Shinespark wrote: I hope gglords replace boring hosts as the zerg late game unit of choice. I mean, I wish ultralisks were used more but I don't see that happening...
what matchup are you talking about? zvz? swarm hosts aren't the unit of choice in zvz and the brood lord patch doesn't affect zvt or zvp at all
Actually, you're right. I dunno what I was thinking. I mean, what I was actually thinking was, "I wish people didn't make swarm hosts in any matchup" But yes, you're right, if this patch makes brood lords show up more in ZvZ then I'm for it But god forbid brood lord vs brood lord (Sniper vs Hyun lol)
Making my 8 harass/map control hellions into hellbats for the first push hasn't failed to net me a lead thus far (diamond tvz). I really like having something real meaty like that up my sleeve for threatening the third or putting them heavily economically behind. Pair 8 hellbats with 20 supply of 1/1 stim bio and the ability to lift the bio away to safety. No lair tech ready so the stim+mine+medivac push 11:00-12:00 is more deadly. I'm absolutely loving this change TvZ.
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote: I don't see how this balance update can affect any build order... Nobody gets the transformation servos upgrade anyways... Against protoss you still need blueflame to make any use of hellbats... Against zerg you may be able to save 6-8 hellions max to transform them to hellbats when mines and tanks play a bigger role... I dont get it
Big difference between blueflame hellbats and hellbats wihtout blue flame. Seems possible that you may end up researching blue flame quite early in this matchup to go with the first hellion/hellbat/marine/medi push.
When playing mech, I like to hellion harass since hellbats are slow. With this, just drive the hellions outside their base and walk in with more firepower. It won't always work better, since workers can run away, but hellbats can still do some things much better, like killing zealot warp ins. Hellions require a ton of micro to do that and there's a good chance you'll want to prioritize something else.
And of course, it would be nice to have 6 hellbats in TvZ as a reward for keeping hellions alive. Hellions again require micro and damage over long intervals and are not as good as hellbats in a straight up fight most of the time.
I would feel more comfortable with hellions against DTs, as you really can't fight those carelessly in even, small numbers. Some Protosses are really good at escaping with DTs too.
The original frenzy apparently prevents the Ultralisk from being snared, stunned and/or mind controlled. Which means that the only 3 abilities that the ultralisk was immune to would be Thor's 250mm strike cannon, neural parasite and fungal growth.
Now that bliz says that "Frenzied is changed to also be immune to movement altering abilities", I guess the list now expands to time warp and abduct? (Both abilities were only introduced in HotS) I guess it would not only help vipers, but also help ultralisks now that it can now go through time warp with ease and attack protoss more efficiently? (The fact that immortals rape ultralisks still doesn't help though).
Concussive shell and Forcefields are not applied to massive units (forcefields are broken by massive units) which is why frenzied didn't include those initially, but I guess now they are under "movement altering abilities" now.
So I guess now broodlords can be viable in ZvZ now that it can't be abducted? Doubt it will affect any other matchup as Protoss and Terran doesn't have any movement altering abilities that affect air units.
Also about the mothership, while I find that it being abducted/mind controlled is silly, I think that the whole unit itself is quite useless for now. I find mothership core more useful than it. That unit needs a complete redesign.
On May 24 2014 10:02 buchaa wrote: I don't see how this balance update can affect any build order... Nobody gets the transformation servos upgrade anyways... Against protoss you still need blueflame to make any use of hellbats... Against zerg you may be able to save 6-8 hellions max to transform them to hellbats when mines and tanks play a bigger role... I dont get it
The main thing is that now every hellion opening is gonna get several free hellbats once the T builds an armory. It rewards players that are able to keep their hellions alive and makes the followup push a lot stronger.
Any thoughts from play today? Terrans in chat channels seem to give this a near universal thumbs up. Not just for all-ins etc but also because it appears to give Terran more dynamism and mobility. Also, I realised, it also means that Terran can do a 4 Hellbat drop again (as 4 Hellions fit into a Medivac while only 2 Hellbats do - that was an ugly patch I wish Blizz would revert).
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Yes, and the concept of a frenzied unit that moves as slow as a snail and attacks no faster is? Better than giving the same ability 2 different names I guess...
Still... I don't like how insignificant the change to Terran is... Now what? If the Zerg is bad and let the Hellions into the natural, you have Hellbats there instead of Hellions? Oh, by the time they become Hellbats, the Drones are long gone anyway and the Hellbats have no way to catch up... Might as well have just kept them in Hellion mode...
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
On May 24 2014 05:31 LeimoC wrote: what is the "Frenzied ability"??
It's a "this unit doesn't give a fuck" ability that means Broodlords and Ultra's ignore movement altering spells. (concussive, abduct, fungal, forecefield, timewarp). Don't get why they can't give the mothership this, probably because an angry mothership doesn't make sense lorewise rofl.
Yes, and the concept of a frenzied unit that moves as slow as a snail and attacks no faster is? Better than giving the same ability 2 different names I guess...
Still... I don't like how insignificant the change to Terran is... Now what? If the Zerg is bad and let the Hellions into the natural, you have Hellbats there instead of Hellions? Oh, by the time they become Hellbats, the Drones are long gone anyway and the Hellbats have no way to catch up... Might as well have just kept them in Hellion mode...
It's totally significant. Hellbats do more damage, have more HP and can be healed by medivacs. It makes Terran stim timings after the intial hellion harass way stronger. Plus it might proof easier to withstand early roach pressures with mech.
On May 24 2014 14:31 Magreidis wrote: So know early game in ZvT you need to make roaches if you scout armory, cause, lings vs hellbats are just useless :D
Terran has to invest in an armory before that though, more incentive to kill the reaper hellion off before the hellions get to morph.
On May 24 2014 14:31 Magreidis wrote: So know early game in ZvT you need to make roaches if you scout armory, cause, lings vs hellbats are just useless :D
Terran has to invest in an armory before that though, more incentive to kill the reaper hellion off before the hellions get to morph.
a terran who controls correctly won't get the reaper/hellion surrounded. that's a huge mistake that should almost just lose the game outright. a good zerg won't chase the hellions down off of creep just to kill them so they won't become hellbats later; he'll engage them the same way as ever and make sure to scout the armory timing
On May 24 2014 12:46 Estancia wrote: The original frenzy apparently prevents the Ultralisk from being snared, stunned and/or mind controlled. Which means that the only 3 abilities that the ultralisk was immune to would be Thor's 250mm strike cannon, neural parasite and fungal growth.
Now that bliz says that "Frenzied is changed to also be immune to movement altering abilities", I guess the list now expands to time warp and abduct? (Both abilities were only introduced in HotS) I guess it would not only help vipers, but also help ultralisks now that it can now go through time warp with ease and attack protoss more efficiently? (The fact that immortals rape ultralisks still doesn't help though).
Concussive shell and Forcefields are not applied to massive units (forcefields are broken by massive units) which is why frenzied didn't include those initially, but I guess now they are under "movement altering abilities" now.
So I guess now broodlords can be viable in ZvZ now that it can't be abducted? Doubt it will affect any other matchup as Protoss and Terran doesn't have any movement altering abilities that affect air units.
Also about the mothership, while I find that it being abducted/mind controlled is silly, I think that the whole unit itself is quite useless for now. I find mothership core more useful than it. That unit needs a complete redesign.
this patch doesn't change the viability of brood lords in zvz, it only changes the viability of brood lords as a counter to swarm host/spore crawler. brood lord switches vs. standard roach/hydra/infestor won't be any stronger. fungals holding brood lords in place never mattered because brood lords don't have mobility anyway
as for ultras, they already weren't affected by time warp
On May 24 2014 11:39 Danglars wrote: Making my 8 harass/map control hellions into hellbats for the first push hasn't failed to net me a lead thus far (diamond tvz). I really like having something real meaty like that up my sleeve for threatening the third or putting them heavily economically behind. Pair 8 hellbats with 20 supply of 1/1 stim bio and the ability to lift the bio away to safety. No lair tech ready so the stim+mine+medivac push 11:00-12:00 is more deadly. I'm absolutely loving this change TvZ.
Who the hell dont have lair tech at 11-12:00? Are you SEA Diamond? Cause that doesnt make any sense at all :D
Hey guys i am a Master Zerg player, i have a question to the Hellbat change.
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings?
Late game ZvT is hugely imbalanced. I don't see how making an upgrade free for Terrans will affect late game 200 vs 200 battles. This has been proven by the last Terran "buffs". Upgrade cost removing did almost nothing in the last patches. When they buffed WM vs Protoss you could see a change almost immediately...When will DK understand that upgrades are not the answer but the actual units are the problem. Zerg is too cost efficient vs Terran in trading armies and Terran cannot keep up. End of story! PS: Terran under-performing after WM/hellbat nerf is a fact, is not an opinion.
It looks to me like the first statement was redundant, someone help me :C
Nope, you need to research an upgrade for Hellions so they could change forms, now you unlock it when you build an Armory, you don't need upgrade anymore.
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings?
Greetings from Germany
Terran normally does a 1/1 push with 2 medivacs to kill some creep. They line this up with the armory to continue to 2/2 upgrades. If they keep their intial 6 or so hellions alive until this push they can transform these to hellbats for some extra beef and zergling killing power.
On May 24 2014 18:13 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey guys i am a Master Zerg player, i have a question to the Hellbat change.
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings?
Greetings from Germany
Terran normally does a 1/1 push with 2 medivacs to kill some creep. They line this up with the armory to continue to 2/2 upgrades. If they keep their intial 6 or so hellions alive until this push they can transform these to hellbats for some extra beef and zergling killing power.
Also the Transformation Servos required an Armory.
Looking forward to Meching it happen on monday. I used the Trafos all the time in the mid and lategame and now Ic can do it earlygame too. :-)
Any clues on how this effects the mass hellion TvT builds?
On May 24 2014 18:13 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey guys i am a Master Zerg player, i have a question to the Hellbat change.
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings?
Greetings from Germany
Terran normally does a 1/1 push with 2 medivacs to kill some creep. They line this up with the armory to continue to 2/2 upgrades. If they keep their intial 6 or so hellions alive until this push they can transform these to hellbats for some extra beef and zergling killing power.
Also the Transformation Servos required an Armory.
Looking forward to Meching it happen on monday. I used the Trafos all the time in the mid and lategame and now Ic can do it earlygame too. :-)
Any clues on how this effects the mass hellion TvT builds?
Yeah okay than you. Forgot that Terran need their armory so or so for 2/2 Timings. Just met this on ladder, cool for Terran if they keep their Helions alive.
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
On May 24 2014 06:16 GinDo wrote: Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
corruptors will be useless vs colossi and battlecruisers (no +dmg to massive) tempests will be useless vs battlecruisers and carriers (no +dmg) archons, colossi and thors couldnt destroy forcefields. phoenixes could lift archons and thors..
This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on.
On May 24 2014 21:14 cheekymonkey wrote: This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on.
as a zerg player i don't see burrow time or movement speed helping you in direct engagements since part of the issue is that we can run lings over your entire army with minimal micro even when mines are preburrowed and still win the fight. maybe you'll grab a few more worker kills with WM drop openings, but the harassment potential of WM drops disappears very rapidly once there are spores and/or overseers which makes it fairly easy to redrone as opposed to hellion harass which poses more of an ongoing threat until the third is secure and has more upward micro potential. finally, i really doubt blizzard will re-buff WM after nerfing them
not a terran player but i've wondered if there's any potential to the idea of marginally reducing the cost or build time of medivacs? that's something that could really help both tvz and tvp, i think... but terran is the race i understand the least
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote: IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
On May 24 2014 21:14 cheekymonkey wrote: This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on.
as a zerg player i don't see burrow time or movement speed helping you in direct engagements since part of the issue is that we can run lings over your entire army with minimal micro even when mines are preburrowed and still win the fight. maybe you'll grab a few more worker kills with WM drop openings, but the harassment potential of WM drops disappears very rapidly once there are spores and/or overseers which makes it fairly easy to redrone as opposed to hellion harass which poses more of an ongoing threat until the third is secure and has more upward micro potential. finally, i really doubt blizzard will re-buff WM after nerfing them
not a terran player but i've wondered if there's any potential to the idea of marginally reducing the cost or build time of medivacs? that's something that could really help both tvz and tvp, i think... but terran is the race i understand the least
I was thinking mainly of TvP, where there are often scenarios where the widow mine is barely destroyed before it burrows. In particular it would help early game harassment builds where Terrans are struggling especially due to MS core.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
It looks to me like the first statement was redundant, someone help me :C
Nope, you need to research an upgrade for Hellions so they could change forms, now you unlock it when you build an Armory, you don't need upgrade anymore.
On May 24 2014 05:45 Holdenintherye wrote: Hmm could we maybe update the OP or something to include what all the "movement altering abilities" are?
Just Abduct, that is the only spell so far.
Those abilities are: concussive shells/time warp/force fields/abduct/fungal
I will say this again, those are NOT the movement altering abilities, only Abduct is. Blizzard changed Frenzy to now also affect movement altering abilities and it was affecting Concussive Shells, Time Warp and Fungal already, so it means that they aren't the movement altering abilities in their book, obviously.
It is quite simple, either I am right, or I am wrong because Blizzard fucked up wording on their patch notes/abilities.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Tyrhanius, if you played zerg, you'd know queens move at slightly faster than 2.5 speed on creep and can therefore kite with success (and i'm not sure why you're referring to queens not taking any damage, if that's the case the unit is broken, which it isn't). Hellbats are used as combat units as a part of a timing attack from the opposing player. You can't just expect to build queens and defend from this. Your queens are used to kite to buy time for roaches, lings and even banelings to repel the attack. Investing in spine crawlers and use your lings/blings defensively is also a decent option if you don't want to commit to roach, and tech quickly to mutas to regain map control.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Tyrhanius, if you played zerg, you'd know queens move at slightly faster than 2.5 speed on creep and can therefore kite with success (and i'm not sure why you're referring to queens not taking any damage, if that's the case the unit is broken, which it isn't). Hellbats are used as combat units as a part of a timing attack from the opposing player. You can't just expect to build queens and defend from this. Your queens are used to kite to buy time for roaches, lings and even banelings to repel the attack. Investing in spine crawlers and use your lings/blings defensively is also a decent option if you don't want to commit to roach, and tech quickly to mutas to regain map control.
You are wrong. They both have 2.5 speed on creep. I don't know where you get that queens are slightly faster on creep from. Queen attack animation is slower than hellions so you really can't kite them, and since queens are limited by creep spread to move around, there is only so much space a queen can retreat before the hellbats hit the mineral field anyways.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
Banelings are a worst tech choice than roach*. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
Having to use that kind of ad hoc patching on broodlord would tend to indicate design failures earlier in the process; I wish they'd address those instead, but this will suffice for now.
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
Banelings are a worst tech choice than baneling. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
Also, I'd assume that gas spent into banelings or roaches means less gas for mutas.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Zerg player here. I do agree terran is weak in TvZ right now, but i always though it was the map pool. So a terran buff is needed if zerg favoured maps are made every season. I don't think there is imbalance in maps where securing a fourth is hard. Those changes are quite big for the early game when terran is not weak at all, and the mid/late game stays the same... There is a possibility that the first medivac push gets too strong with hellbat support, potentialy making the matchup strongly favoured for terran in small maps. We will see. It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
On May 25 2014 06:59 Superbanana wrote: It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
the entire zerg race is a clusterfuck of biological and scientific impossibility, but brood lord resisting abducts bothers you from a logical standpoint?
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Patch 6 (version 0.8.0.14593) Build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds. Patch 16 (version 0.19.0.15976) Undocumented Changes Bunker build time increased from 30 to 40. Patch 17 (version 0.20.0.16036) Bunker build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds. Patch 1.1.0 Build time increased from 30 to 35. Patch 1.3.0 Build time increased from 35 to 40.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
I say the truth you will need to go roach after the patch in the early stage at every TvZ.
Maybe you have forgot (or T bias, you refuse to admit) what was TvZ with Hellbat :
On May 25 2014 06:07 zlefin wrote: Having to use that kind of ad hoc patching on broodlord would tend to indicate design failures earlier in the process; I wish they'd address those instead, but this will suffice for now.
By your logic the game should be released in an almost perfect condition and never require any patching other than bug fixes due to good design. I haven't seen such a game for long long years.
Well the thing is that if you scout anything along the lines of reactored hellions or blue flame, there is no question of if terran is making an armoury for hellbats but when.
On May 25 2014 20:07 ETisME wrote: I am very interested to see what kind of timing terran would make out of this patch. Mass bfhellion +1 atk into mass hellbat?
mech defense +1 is actually more viable as bbyong showed!
On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote: I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed). Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach. The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
I've stuffed mass and heavy hellbat styles with banes, they do well enough for a few waves. Split them up a bit and move command into them, if a hellbat hits them they detonate on it. Those things clump up hard. It's a little inefficient but not as bad as you'd think. It'll buy plenty of time to get out a better answer. If they're screening marines go at them a few at a time to whittle them down.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
Agreed. Anytime we see an imbalance spike, in any match up, the map pool should be the first thing adjusted, rather than units.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
Agreed. Anytime we see an imbalance spike, in any match up, the map pool should be the first thing adjusted, rather than units.
Yeah, I guess the maps play a bigger part than people think, sometimes.
With that said though, I still think the widow mine buff was a good. It gave Terran some much needed diversity in a matchup where they were otherwise forced to play pretty similar most of the time.
On May 25 2014 06:59 Superbanana wrote: Zerg player here. I do agree terran is weak in TvZ right now, but i always though it was the map pool. So a terran buff is needed if zerg favoured maps are made every season. I don't think there is imbalance in maps where securing a fourth is hard. Those changes are quite big for the early game when terran is not weak at all, and the mid/late game stays the same... There is a possibility that the first medivac push gets too strong with hellbat support, potentialy making the matchup strongly favoured for terran in small maps. We will see. It does feel weird that BL cannot be abducted when mothership and bcs can, but it can make zvz more fun to watch and play so im ok with that.
I disagree with this,
Terran was not strong in the early game before, and that's why zergs were able to macro so easily and build up those ridiculous muta flocks. Terran needed a way to keep zergs honest in the early game and check their greed, which the threat of a quick hellbat timing will do. And this does have a direct impact on the mid/late game because it will allow Terran to enter the later stages of the game on a more equal footing with Zerg. It also allows the threat of late game hellion runbys turning into hellbat building kill squads, which also helps to give Terran a threat of map control.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
On May 25 2014 02:21 imrusty269 wrote: Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
Banelings are a worst tech choice than roach*. You don't have speed at this timing, you want to choose a unit Terran can outmicro, which die when they attack while with roach you can hit & run ?
Then try to surround Terran army from running your zerglings behind. Good Zergs should have enough creep spread in the first 10 minutes to pull it off. Who knows, maybe this will affect the map making so that 3rd and 4th are more open than what they are currently so turtle play is deterred. That then in turn benefit Zergs.
Or think of Roach Warren as a safety tax and just build one blindly if your scouting fails. D. Kim stated that while TvZ battles are balanced Zergs have a slight upper hand in remaxing due to better economy, so Blizzard is looking to slow down Zergs a little bit. Forcing Roach Warren (again, only when you fail to scout or you scout mass Hellions/Hellbats) from Zergs may be a small tweak to achieve that goal than any other nerfs/buffs that might have bigger consequences (e.g. Muta nerf).
Really, I think Zergs (and Terrans) should give this a shot before complaining with theories.
Want to say that I'm actually really liking the removal of the hellion transformation upgrade. If you keep your existing hellions alive earlygame, you can morph those in for your initial push, and they are killer at tanking and will be healed by those medivacs.
This is coming from someone who never makes hellbats so it's interesting to have them for once.
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
I agree, I also think time warp is pretty boring, should maybe be replaced
On May 25 2014 06:39 IMPrime wrote: stop responding to Tyrhanius, he's just trolling.
It's a fairly disappointing patch overall, they did absolutely nothing to tvp. The most surprising thing is that Blizzard basically undid a (bad) patch they did, which is surprising because they almost never revert changes they make.
Statistics actually seem to imply that TvP is fine. It seems like the widow mine patch solved the match up by weakening the greedy templar play.
Changing the map pool has also helped. The MU is a lot better now that blink attacks aren't absurdly overpowered on half the maps.
I disagree with the logic of this one. I really want my Reapers to be able to go into his base. This creates a bit of action and harass potential. The fact that they had to make the map pool more boring to play in order to balance blink stalkers is a mistake IMO. I much rather have seen a nerf to Time Warp. This is such a terribly anti micro ability, and it would have been much more fun if we have kept maps like Heavy Rain and at the same time reduces the amount of anti-micro abilities in the game.
I agree. I've been wanting TW to be an upgrade for a long time. It's too powerful a spell for MSC to have straight off the bat.
Also, I like maps where certain strategies are favoured. The last thing I want are just "safe" and "standard" maps.
Terran was not strong in the early game before, and that's why zergs were able to macro so easily and build up those ridiculous muta flocks. Terran needed a way to keep zergs honest in the early game and check their greed, which the threat of a quick hellbat timing will do. And this does have a direct impact on the mid/late game because it will allow Terran to enter the later stages of the game on a more equal footing with Zerg. It also allows the threat of late game hellion runbys turning into hellbat building kill squads, which also helps to give Terran a threat of map control.
I'm a Zerg btw..
Indeed, forcing zerg to be less greedy early on does affect mid-late game. But, as i said, i think terran is weak on current map pool. In other seasons we would always see a terran putting some hard pressure on zerg fourth and harassing with drops. This is out of the meta mostly because the maps do not favour this play. Now in a balaced map (or terran favoured map) the early game buff may prove to be too much. But i think its going to be ok in the end. Maybe we will see more defensive roaches or blind roach warren.
what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
What drivel... It's pretty clear you don't play this game at all.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
When i was reading ur post, BL-Infestor era came into my mind. I wonder why... :D
I´m still thinking that SC2 needs more balance changes to be more funny to play/watch (more diversity and less "never-used" units) but I like this patch specially the Z part, when I read about their concerns of ZvZ I was specting some change to the viper like "abducts works against everything but shielded units and mech units only on fridays" but giving Frenzied to BL makes sense and it´s clean
On May 26 2014 20:55 Mojito99 wrote: this is excellent: also High Templars are on strike every other day and medivacs have a no fly zone on maps monday through thursday.
This will also add a certain amount of luck into the game which according to the "The future of RTS games" threads is what is needed to revitalise the genre .
Really dislike the changes, but the zerg changes do the trick in a pretty ugly fashion though. And I guess others had different experiences on the test maps for the hellbat part, I pretty much could do the exact same thing, why servos were added in the first place (but way to expensive). On the plus side the Terran part is a balance reversal. Meaning that things they touched once doesn't seem to be irreversible anymore. And yes I still remember the Bunker. They could have made the servos to remove the transformation from the game though, just to bring it back when Terran gets to weak. That would explain the high cost of the upgrade.
On May 26 2014 20:55 Mojito99 wrote: this is excellent: also High Templars are on strike every other day and medivacs have a no fly zone on maps monday through thursday.
Haha :D While I agree that they are becoming a bit too matchup specific on the balance changes, if it makes for a better game, I think it's fine.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch)
How would you know? Its pretty clear from your post that you've neither watched nor played this game.
mhhhm. i am feeling a big comeback of 2 base scv pulls in tvp.
chargelot/storm openings was what got that out of fashion and now that you can maybe open hellion centric and have 8-10 hellbats to tank with a marauder heavy force + some splits you can live through those 3-4 storms, tank the zealots and just roflstomp over a not properly defended protoss
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
Code S 2013 s1.
Ro32, 7 Protoss, 11 Terran, 14 Zerg.
Ro16, 3 Protoss, 6 Terran, 7 Zerg.
Ro8, 2 Protoss, 2 Terran, 4 Zerg.
Ro4, 1 Protoss, 1 Terran, 2 Zerg.
Ro2, 1 Terran, 1 Zerg. Zerg won.
If that's "Terran domination," I'm not sure the English language is ready for what the Protoss and Zerg did to Terrans in all three subsequent seasons.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
Code S 2013 s1.
Ro32, 7 Protoss, 11 Terran, 14 Zerg.
Ro16, 3 Protoss, 6 Terran, 7 Zerg.
Ro8, 2 Protoss, 2 Terran, 4 Zerg.
Ro4, 1 Protoss, 1 Terran, 2 Zerg.
Ro2, 1 Terran, 1 Zerg. Zerg won.
If that's "Terran domination," I'm not sure the English language is ready for what the Protoss and Zerg did to Terrans in all three subsequent seasons.
Technically it was Code S Season 2 of 2013, WCS Season 1. Code S Season 1 of 2013 was still WoL.
Also WCS Season 2 was actually quite better for Terran than Season 1: P: 10 T:8 Z:14 P:4 T: 7 Z:5 P:2 T:4 Z:2 P:1 T:3 P:1 T:1 Winner: Maru
That on its own (pretty much the distribution that Zerg had at the end of WoL) in only one tournament doesn't mean shit.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
Code S 2013 s1.
Ro32, 7 Protoss, 11 Terran, 14 Zerg.
Ro16, 3 Protoss, 6 Terran, 7 Zerg.
Ro8, 2 Protoss, 2 Terran, 4 Zerg.
Ro4, 1 Protoss, 1 Terran, 2 Zerg.
Ro2, 1 Terran, 1 Zerg. Zerg won.
If that's "Terran domination," I'm not sure the English language is ready for what the Protoss and Zerg did to Terrans in all three subsequent seasons.
Technically it was Code S Season 2 of 2013, WCS Season 1. Code S Season 1 of 2013 was still WoL.
Also WCS Season 2 was actually quite better for Terran than Season 1: P: 10 T:8 Z:14 P:4 T: 7 Z:5 P:2 T:4 Z:2 P:1 T:3 P:1 T:1 Winner: Maru
That on its own (pretty much the distribution that Zerg had at the end of WoL) in only one tournament doesn't mean shit.
Sorry, you're right, I still get a little confused between the denominations. Especially GSL/OSL throws me off.
The point is, Zerg has dominated every single Code S throughout HOTS, and while Terran did marginally better than Protoss in the first two Code S of HOTS, they've done increasingly worse with every subsequent one. Terran hasn't dominated anything anywhere ever since like 2012.
On May 26 2014 19:36 SeriousLus wrote: what a retarded change... as to be expected from Blizzard... They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong" but now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months. one of the many reasons this game is such a FAIL to play (not to watch )
Um what game are you playing?
They didnt change shit in WoL, when Terrans were "a tad too strong"
Besides nerfing terran every month for the first 6 months? All the while buffing every other race?
now that Terrans are too dumb to play this game accordingly they patch the shit outta this withing a few months.
So this game has been out for 14 months dude. 14. and all terran has gotten, which occurred in the first 3-4 months have been nerfs, and a placebo tank buff. The remainder of that 10-11 months terran have been getting crushed.
It honestly sounds like you've never played a single game of starcraft let alone have watched it.
Widow mine buff vs. shields was huge.
Terran was also dominating the beginning of HOTS so...
Code S 2013 s1.
Ro32, 7 Protoss, 11 Terran, 14 Zerg.
Ro16, 3 Protoss, 6 Terran, 7 Zerg.
Ro8, 2 Protoss, 2 Terran, 4 Zerg.
Ro4, 1 Protoss, 1 Terran, 2 Zerg.
Ro2, 1 Terran, 1 Zerg. Zerg won.
If that's "Terran domination," I'm not sure the English language is ready for what the Protoss and Zerg did to Terrans in all three subsequent seasons.
Technically it was Code S Season 2 of 2013, WCS Season 1. Code S Season 1 of 2013 was still WoL.
Also WCS Season 2 was actually quite better for Terran than Season 1: P: 10 T:8 Z:14 P:4 T: 7 Z:5 P:2 T:4 Z:2 P:1 T:3 P:1 T:1 Winner: Maru
That on its own (pretty much the distribution that Zerg had at the end of WoL) in only one tournament doesn't mean shit.
Sorry, you're right, I still get a little confused between the denominations. Especially GSL/OSL throws me off.
The point is, Zerg has dominated every single Code S throughout HOTS, and while Terran did marginally better than Protoss in the first two Code S of HOTS, they've done increasingly worse with every subsequent one. Terran hasn't dominated anything anywhere ever since like 2012.
Come one, you either can say that Zerg has dominated all Code S (and stretch that word a lot with Z winning 1 out of 3 Code S in HotS) and then also need to admit that Terran made the first 4 consecutive Korean finals of HotS and won all of them apart from WCS S1 (WCS S1 Globals, WCS S2, WCS S2 Globals) and looked pretty dominating at that time. (also took 4/6 foreign WCS finals; Polt and Taeja had 5 Premier tournament wins each in 2013 which was far more than any P or Z achieved) Or you can say that neither of those two races has been dominating, since Terran did clearly better in 2013 (especially in the first half year after HotS came out) and you dismiss that one as "no domination".
I think the Patch 4 BL´s is not a ZvZ Buff, it is an "Anti-Stephano-Buff" :p, because he just overdid it with the SH. Actually i don´t like SH´s either, but it is the only way do deal with Toss Lategamedeathballs or Mech. I´d like to see them replaced by an Antiairunit, or completely redesigned.
The Hellbatbuff i think might be a bit too much 4 the TvZ earlygame, because i see tons of Hellbat Marauder Medivac timings incoming, that are quite hard to defend with Z T1 Units, because the Hardcounter 4 Lings is Hellbats, the Hardcounter 4 Roaches is Marauders. Also is the Hellbat a bit too strong imo 4 a Untis that only costs Minerals. How about doing the Buff, but also changing the Cost of Hellions/Hellbats to 75/25 Like Roaches. T´s don´t need their Gas anyway or am I wrong there?
Last but not least: The Mappool I really don´t think that the Mappool is the Problem in TvZ. It is just that we Zergs had to learn how to Play on small maps with a lot of chokepoints and ramps (Best example is Whirlwind or Heavy Rain) and now the T´s and P´s from this World have to learn how to play on Maps that have wide open space. I see no imbalance there.
Although I do not play ZvZ myself, that game between at Lone Star Clash really showed in one swipe why there is need for an alternate Swarmhost approach.
As said on the Battle.net Forums, there are no plans to redesign this unit as a whole since its impact on the gameplay would be too severe. I really agree with this point but contradictory I really do not like the unit, not due to the fact that it is a good counter to Terran Mech but since its design very often seems to stretch games.
I find swarmhost vs mech can be really fun to watch, especially the newer mech games that we watch. Swarmhost and muta style with viper grab is pretty awesome
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EOqA4Hc.png)
