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On May 24 2014 18:22 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 18:13 EXRNaRa wrote:Hey guys i am a Master Zerg player, i have a question to the Hellbat change. Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings? Greetings from Germany Terran normally does a 1/1 push with 2 medivacs to kill some creep. They line this up with the armory to continue to 2/2 upgrades. If they keep their intial 6 or so hellions alive until this push they can transform these to hellbats for some extra beef and zergling killing power.
Also the Transformation Servos required an Armory.
Looking forward to Meching it happen on monday. I used the Trafos all the time in the mid and lategame and now Ic can do it earlygame too. :-)
Any clues on how this effects the mass hellion TvT builds?
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On May 24 2014 18:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 18:22 Saechiis wrote:On May 24 2014 18:13 EXRNaRa wrote:Hey guys i am a Master Zerg player, i have a question to the Hellbat change. Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory Why should this change the matchup or bring more terrans to use hellbats? If i am correct you could research the upgrade before in an Techlab without an Armory or not? So what happens is a bit of money for an upgrade goes away but you have to build an armory now. Can a Terran or somebody else explain me the reason why there should be new or faster timings? Greetings from Germany Terran normally does a 1/1 push with 2 medivacs to kill some creep. They line this up with the armory to continue to 2/2 upgrades. If they keep their intial 6 or so hellions alive until this push they can transform these to hellbats for some extra beef and zergling killing power. Also the Transformation Servos required an Armory. Looking forward to Meching it happen on monday. I used the Trafos all the time in the mid and lategame and now Ic can do it earlygame too. :-) Any clues on how this effects the mass hellion TvT builds?
Yeah okay than you. Forgot that Terran need their armory so or so for 2/2 Timings.
Just met this on ladder, cool for Terran if they keep their Helions alive.
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Cool stuff overall.
About mass hellions TvT,we might see interesting micro if someone transforms everything into hellbats and meets microed hellions =)
Also it opens strong timings with like 3 tanks /20 hellions/+air support
Anyway blue flame will become a standard 
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Are now the abducting Vipers being abducted instead of the Brood Lords that were supposed to be abducted? :3
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 24 2014 19:18 TwiggyWan wrote:Cool stuff overall. About mass hellions TvT,we might see interesting micro if someone transforms everything into hellbats and meets microed hellions =) Also it opens strong timings with like 3 tanks /20 hellions/+air support Anyway blue flame will become a standard
Vipers are only way to counter casters as zerg. Swarm don't have emp and feedbacks, so
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote:
IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO
On May 24 2014 06:16 GinDo wrote:
Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi
corruptors will be useless vs colossi and battlecruisers (no +dmg to massive)
tempests will be useless vs battlecruisers and carriers (no +dmg)
archons, colossi and thors couldnt destroy forcefields.
phoenixes could lift archons and thors..
u're even worse balancer than David Kim
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This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on.
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On May 24 2014 21:14 cheekymonkey wrote:
This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on.
as a zerg player i don't see burrow time or movement speed helping you in direct engagements since part of the issue is that we can run lings over your entire army with minimal micro even when mines are preburrowed and still win the fight. maybe you'll grab a few more worker kills with WM drop openings, but the harassment potential of WM drops disappears very rapidly once there are spores and/or overseers which makes it fairly easy to redrone as opposed to hellion harass which poses more of an ongoing threat until the third is secure and has more upward micro potential. finally, i really doubt blizzard will re-buff WM after nerfing them
not a terran player but i've wondered if there's any potential to the idea of marginally reducing the cost or build time of medivacs? that's something that could really help both tvz and tvp, i think... but terran is the race i understand the least
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I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
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On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf.
scout armory timing and build roaches
if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
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On May 24 2014 20:33 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote:
IMO it makes more sense to make the traits of Frenzy applied to all Massive units, and then eliminate the Massive tag from units like Collosi/etc.
Seems like a cleaner fix IMO Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 06:16 GinDo wrote:
Man nobody is reading past line 2 -_-
Massive tags = Frenzy abilities -----> Remove Massive Tag from Collosi tempests will be useless vs battlecruisers and carriers (no +dmg)
Like this would be a bad thing... implying battlecruisers and carriers are being used
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On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout
No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem.
Roach warren : 55s
Roach : 27s
Roach warren + armory = 82s
Armory : 65s.
If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend.
In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time.
It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base).
If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
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On May 24 2014 21:25 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 21:14 cheekymonkey wrote:
This is cool but not enough. Other Terran units needs a buff as well. Giving the widow mine slightly increased movement speed and burrow time (without the upgrade) would be good. Terran is so dependent on doing good harassment, and it's becoming harder as time goes on. as a zerg player i don't see burrow time or movement speed helping you in direct engagements since part of the issue is that we can run lings over your entire army with minimal micro even when mines are preburrowed and still win the fight. maybe you'll grab a few more worker kills with WM drop openings, but the harassment potential of WM drops disappears very rapidly once there are spores and/or overseers which makes it fairly easy to redrone as opposed to hellion harass which poses more of an ongoing threat until the third is secure and has more upward micro potential. finally, i really doubt blizzard will re-buff WM after nerfing them not a terran player but i've wondered if there's any potential to the idea of marginally reducing the cost or build time of medivacs? that's something that could really help both tvz and tvp, i think... but terran is the race i understand the least
I was thinking mainly of TvP, where there are often scenarios where the widow mine is barely destroyed before it burrows. In particular it would help early game harassment builds where Terrans are struggling especially due to MS core.
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On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ.
a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone
b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself.
c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario.
--> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
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On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT.
a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg.
b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep.
c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank)
When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ?
Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
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On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Or just make banelings and amove. Hellbats aren't that good. I watched Supernova stream yesterday. As long as zergs build units that aren't pure zerglings, they can defend fine.
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On May 24 2014 18:18 sCnInfinity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 05:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 24 2014 05:38 DeathDyingDoomKiller wrote:
I don't get this part, is it worded incorrectly?
Terran
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
It looks to me like the first statement was redundant, someone help me :C Nope, you need to research an upgrade for Hellions so they could change forms, now you unlock it when you build an Armory, you don't need upgrade anymore. On May 24 2014 05:45 Holdenintherye wrote:
Hmm could we maybe update the OP or something to include what all the "movement altering abilities" are? Just Abduct, that is the only spell so far. Those abilities are: concussive shells/time warp/force fields/abduct/fungal
I will say this again, those are NOT the movement altering abilities, only Abduct is. Blizzard changed Frenzy to now also affect movement altering abilities and it was affecting Concussive Shells, Time Warp and Fungal already, so it means that they aren't the movement altering abilities in their book, obviously.
It is quite simple, either I am right, or I am wrong because Blizzard fucked up wording on their patch notes/abilities.
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On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere.
Tyrhanius, if you played zerg, you'd know queens move at slightly faster than 2.5 speed on creep and can therefore kite with success (and i'm not sure why you're referring to queens not taking any damage, if that's the case the unit is broken, which it isn't). Hellbats are used as combat units as a part of a timing attack from the opposing player. You can't just expect to build queens and defend from this. Your queens are used to kite to buy time for roaches, lings and even banelings to repel the attack. Investing in spine crawlers and use your lings/blings defensively is also a decent option if you don't want to commit to roach, and tech quickly to mutas to regain map control.
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On May 25 2014 03:01 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 01:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On May 24 2014 22:47 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 24 2014 21:41 Waise wrote:On May 24 2014 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:
I think servo should be move to armory as a research with decreased price and time (like 100/100 50s or 50/50 40s if needed).
Amory only required make hellbat come too soon : you make reactor hellion, do 8-10 hellions make armory, you cross the map and can make 4-5 hellbat and you have a huge hellions/hellbat timing around 7-8 that cost you nearly nothing while it kills the zerg who doesn't make roach.
The T need a buff rather in mid/late game (slight wm buff as suggested above, tank with faster siege/unsiege could be interesting to look for too imo). But making hellbat which come too soon is bad for the TvZ. TvZ is one of the best MU because of there is a lot of fight in the mid/game with player gaining/losing avantage and you don't know who will won. If T is too strong early, Z will be just crushed and you know it game over 10min before gg just like before WM nerf. scout armory timing and build roaches if you don't scout you will lose to 4port banshee. that's why you scout No you can't scoot it on time that's the problem. Roach warren : 55s Roach : 27s Roach warren + armory = 82s Armory : 65s. If Terran reach you base at the exact time armory complete, while you have scooted armory at the exact time he begins to built it, you have to wait 12s (82-65=17-5 of hellbat transformation) + the travel time before having roach to defend. In a real game you'll never scoot the armory at 1s. If you're lucky you scoot it at 20s, so you have your roach 32s after the begining of the attack. And T can hid armory everywhere on the map, or deny overlord with marine, so you'll never scoot this in time. It's different from banshee where you can see a tech lab, an early spatio, and you have the time T build his banshee, research cloak and cross the map (spore only take 30s to be built so even if you scoot a banshee just when it goes out of Terran base, you can have spores completed when banshee reach your base). If this patch is released, you will have to make roach warren and build roach blindly on every TvZ. a) you don't have to make roaches blindly. You can do with the roach warren alone b) it's not like hellbats are unbeatable by anything else. If it is 6-8 frontal hellbats without medivacs, I'm pretty sure queens can hurt them a lot by kiting before they can deal enough damage. Then zerglings may be enough, but I guess I would have to see that myself. c) if your opponent does such a build and you happen to be on a roach build anyways, I believe you have an advantage. Banshee builds can do that kind of stuff, because banshees are good vs roaches. But an armory doesn't help you a lot in that scenario. --> play with it, test it. I can't see this being better than hellbat drops were, and hellbat drops weren't imbalanced in TvZ only in TvT. a) Yeah you can waste 200 mineral, try to scoot armory between 1s and 38s, if you scoot it later you take dmg. b) Lol queen dps = 8, hellbat HP =135,5, so 1 queen kill 1 hellbat in 16.6s. 3 queen kills 8 hellbats in 45s. Interesting fact queen can't kite hellbat without taking dmg even on creep. c) Invest of an armory : 150/100, invest of banshee cloack : Starport : 150/100; tech lab : 50/25; cloack : 100/100, 2 banshee 300/200 = 600/425 vs 150/100. If Z all in, T has 450/325 more he can invest into defense vs Roach all-in (marauders/bunker/WM/tank) When you don't go for hellion/banshee you die to roach 100% ? Yeah Hellbat was imbalance in a miror and perfectly fine in a non miror lol. I don't know how you can say hellbat is imbalanced when the other player can make them too. You can say it's make the game boring or one tech, but not imbalance And Just watch some old TvZ with hellbat drop all the game, Z forced to stay at home the first 10min. It was as stupid as TvT with hellbat drop everywhere. Tyrhanius, if you played zerg, you'd know queens move at slightly faster than 2.5 speed on creep and can therefore kite with success (and i'm not sure why you're referring to queens not taking any damage, if that's the case the unit is broken, which it isn't). Hellbats are used as combat units as a part of a timing attack from the opposing player. You can't just expect to build queens and defend from this. Your queens are used to kite to buy time for roaches, lings and even banelings to repel the attack. Investing in spine crawlers and use your lings/blings defensively is also a decent option if you don't want to commit to roach, and tech quickly to mutas to regain map control.
You are wrong. They both have 2.5 speed on creep. I don't know where you get that queens are slightly faster on creep from. Queen attack animation is slower than hellions so you really can't kite them, and since queens are limited by creep spread to move around, there is only so much space a queen can retreat before the hellbats hit the mineral field anyways.
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EPT
