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On May 16 2014 22:43 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem.  More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now. Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult...
Swarmhost are a non factor in the top level pro scene aka Korea. Swarmhost are not even close to being broken in zvt and zvp, Koreans aka good players negate them easy and learned to play.
Only people crying about swarm host are non skilled players on the ladder. Not one game in top level of play in zvz has involved SH. (Stephano trolling EU does not count) Rushing in and doing something drastic to SH will break other mu, if Blizzard finds a way to please the very few EU players in zvz with out effecting other mu, more power to them.
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On May 18 2014 07:10 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 22:43 mostevil wrote:On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem. More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now. Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult... Swarmhost are a non factor in the top level pro scene aka Korea. Swarmhost are not even close to being broken in zvt and zvp, Koreans aka good players negate them easy and learned to play. Only people crying about swarm host are non skilled players on the ladder. Not one game in top level of play in zvz has involved SH. (Stephano trolling EU does not count) Rushing in and doing something drastic to SH will break other mu, if Blizzard finds a way to please the very few EU players in zvz with out effecting other mu, more power to them.
That's why Parting doesn't qualified for IEM losing to Soulkey's mass SH? Make sense.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
Just add a 5 mineral cost (or more) to each locust to spawn. Not only does it benefit you from taking more bases, but it also means you can't wait for the map to mine out and win since nothing can cost effectively stop them when they're surrounded by static defense.
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Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up.
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On May 18 2014 07:39 Faust852 wrote:
Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up.
That would mean Blizz would have to admit that 2 of the 7 new units are so bad designed, that they have to remove them. (Warhound + Swarmhost)
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On May 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 07:39 Faust852 wrote:
Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up. That would mean Blizz would have to admit that 2 of the 7 new units are so bad designed, that they have to remove them. (Warhound + Swarmhost)
well WH were really bad, really.. As for SH - there's still some hope I think..
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On May 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 07:39 Faust852 wrote:
Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up. That would mean Blizz would have to admit that 2 of the 7 new units are so bad designed, that they have to remove them. (Warhound + Swarmhost)
it would also save me a lot of time because any zvp or zvmech that lasts longer than 15 minutes i could just immediately quit
and if you think "don't let the game get there" makes a matchup balanced we have very different ideas about design
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On May 18 2014 08:49 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On May 18 2014 07:39 Faust852 wrote:
Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up. That would mean Blizz would have to admit that 2 of the 7 new units are so bad designed, that they have to remove them. (Warhound + Swarmhost) it would also save me a lot of time because any zvp or zvmech that lasts longer than 15 minutes i could just immediately quit and if you think "don't let the game get there" makes a matchup balanced we have very different ideas about design
Or just try to play differently. Roro did show how to play without SH against Mvp for instance. There are a shit ton of other ways than SH, and much more effective imho (I am a mech player).
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On May 18 2014 08:51 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 08:49 Waise wrote:On May 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On May 18 2014 07:39 Faust852 wrote:
Why not just remove SH, it isn't vital in any match up. That would mean Blizz would have to admit that 2 of the 7 new units are so bad designed, that they have to remove them. (Warhound + Swarmhost) it would also save me a lot of time because any zvp or zvmech that lasts longer than 15 minutes i could just immediately quit and if you think "don't let the game get there" makes a matchup balanced we have very different ideas about design Or just try to play differently. Roro did show how to play without SH against Mvp for instance. There are a shit ton of other ways than SH, and much more effective imho (I am a mech player).
there are lots of timings and tech switches you can use to hurt mech pretty badly, yes. the only reason it's not as bad as fighting a lategame protoss army is because mech is simply a weaker style than protoss deathball. but the ultimate problem is exactly the same: if you don't do damage, limit, slow down your opponent at all, you usually cannot go blow-for-blow in the late game without swarm hosts because hive tech units have specific hard counters (as it must be due to zerg's ability to fast tech switch). mech is only an exception because it's so vulnerable compared to P that being aggressive with lair tech is much more viable
against protoss it's a much bigger problem, because a protoss who plays safely and defensively is very easily capable of staving off lair attacks while macroing up. ling/hydra and roach/hydra(/viper/corruptor) are viable styles, but a protoss who scouts and anticipates them properly will defend them and the game will transition. ofc games will be won or lost based on player skill, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that x out of y total games will go into "full macro," and full macro shouldn't dramatically favor either side. swarm hosts and mutas, both considered "gimmicks" or "OP" by protoss, are threats that need to exist in the metagame so protoss can't simply hardcounter the standard roach/hydra/ling/(corruptor)/(viper) ball zerg will make every game with the same old standard colossus/void ray/templar ball they all want at the end of the game anyway. if it weren't for swarm hosts there would be nothing stopping them from still using that deathball in the current meta. infestors are not viable, nydus worms are not reliable, corruptors are generally only for sniping colossus and tempests and are not viable with void rays on the field and no spore crawler/swarm host turtling. there is no one true stable zerg army vs P without SH
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For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too.
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On May 18 2014 09:20 Faust852 wrote:
For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too.
If you take SH out then Z has super limited options and that means that it´s fairly easy to hard counter them. ZvP would be totally broken and mech would also become near broken probably. If Z only has mid-game timings against mech that makes them predictable and quite easily countered. Yes there are other ways to play than SH but having more than one style makes it so that P or T can´t just blind counter everything you do and still i would say that SH is the most stable style against terran mech and the only style that has any chance to fight against P death ball. Other ways can work especially against mech, but they are often timing orientated and if they fail you are basically dead.
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On May 18 2014 10:05 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 09:20 Faust852 wrote:
For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too. If you take SH out then Z has super limited options and that means that it´s fairly easy to hard counter them. ZvP would be totally broken and mech would also become near broken probably. If Z only has mid-game timings against mech that makes them predictable and quite easily countered. Yes there are other ways to play than SH but having more than one style makes it so that P or T can´t just blind counter everything you do and still i would say that SH is the most stable style against terran mech and the only style that has any chance to fight against P death ball. Other ways can work especially against mech, but they are often timing orientated and if they fail you are basically dead.
So you are saying terran having to play bio in TvP make protoss broken ? Not because only one style of play is viable, make a match up broken as well.
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On May 18 2014 10:21 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 10:05 RaFox17 wrote:On May 18 2014 09:20 Faust852 wrote:
For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too. If you take SH out then Z has super limited options and that means that it´s fairly easy to hard counter them. ZvP would be totally broken and mech would also become near broken probably. If Z only has mid-game timings against mech that makes them predictable and quite easily countered. Yes there are other ways to play than SH but having more than one style makes it so that P or T can´t just blind counter everything you do and still i would say that SH is the most stable style against terran mech and the only style that has any chance to fight against P death ball. Other ways can work especially against mech, but they are often timing orientated and if they fail you are basically dead. So you are saying terran having to play bio in TvP make protoss broken ? Not because only one style of play is viable, make a match up broken as well.
Have you ever tried to play ZvP? Do you know what happens to Z army against colossi/deathray/HT/tempest? To kill that army without SH in the late game means you have to re-max 3-4 times probably and hope that toss gives you the time after your army is totally destroyed. Having one style to play does not make a MU broken but i would argue that without SH Z would have no chance to kill a turtling protoss. Please make an argument that counters my arguments. Just remove SH is sounds really biased and shows that you don´t really understand how important unit it is for Z to fight in the late game.
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I would just argue that letting a protoss maxing this much off 4+ bases is why you lost. This is an evidence, some race are better in the ultra late game then the other, but having a max army of archon colossi HY void and tempest + enough to remax it is almost impossible to get. What do you want to argue, that 200/200 of BC raven viking is unkillable for a zerg ? I'd say yes, but gosh, this is IMPOSSIBLE to reach this composition in a normal game, and it should not be possible for the protoss either.
Hell, the only situation where I see a protoss getting this big amount of army only happens when the zerg camp on X bases with 25 SH. There are plenty of games that prove that roach hydra viper has almost no counter by the timing you get this composition. The viper has a "one shoot massive unit" spell, that make colossi die very fast. And what's the counter to roach hydra ? Yes, colossi. So what ? SH isn't even played that much at the highest level of play, it's only a way for the zerg to come back into the game if he gets behind. And don't say otherwise, i'm pretty sure 90% of the game where the Z go SH, it's because he lost to much on the protoss early game aggression and can't take more than a 3rd.
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On May 18 2014 12:07 Faust852 wrote:
I would just argue that letting a protoss maxing this much off 4+ bases is why you lost. This is an evidence, some race are better in the ultra late game then the other, but having a max army of archon colossi HY void and tempest + enough to remax it is almost impossible to get. What do you want to argue, that 200/200 of BC raven viking is unkillable for a zerg ? I'd say yes, but gosh, this is IMPOSSIBLE to reach this composition in a normal game, and it should not be possible for the protoss either.
Hell, the only situation where I see a protoss getting this big amount of army only happens when the zerg camp on X bases with 25 SH. There are plenty of games that prove that roach hydra viper has almost no counter by the timing you get this composition. The viper has a "one shoot massive unit" spell, that make colossi die very fast. And what's the counter to roach hydra ? Yes, colossi. So what ? SH isn't even played that much at the highest level of play, it's only a way for the zerg to come back into the game if he gets behind. And don't say otherwise, i'm pretty sure 90% of the game where the Z go SH, it's because he lost to much on the protoss early game aggression and can't take more than a 3rd.
It´s really hard to break toss player if they decide to turtle without using SH pressure. If hydra/roach timing is the only thing you have i´m pretty sure toss is able to play a bit safer and defend the push which leaves Z in a situation where they are stuck with basically useless tech and then what? Saying that you should not let somebody to reach X composition is saying that it´s ok to have imbalance in the game. Kill them before they can reach that imba composition. Thats really bad design. HT is also quite nice counter to viper and hydra, so i would not call roach/hydra/viper timing impossible to hold. If the game goes long and is even Z needs to move from roach/hydra to something else. Ultras are shit most of the time, B-lords are super hard countered by tempest and muta/corruptor is really flimsy composition and cannot be used all the time.
Yes SH is maybe the only thing that allows Z to claw its way from behind. Are you saying that that is a bad thing? Having ways to recover? That makes games more interesting cause Z can recover and is not dead after falling behind.
I´m still of the opinion that removing SH brake the game.
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Meh, my problem is it doesn't matter if they accumulate a shitton of SH. I find 2base SH play appalling. Can't stand the unit, generally speaking. hope they get rid of it asap.
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On May 18 2014 09:20 Faust852 wrote:
For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too.
I'm not terribly interested in your replays. Give me a replay of a professional game and we'll be talking. If you keep insisting that SH aren't absolutely essential for zerg, you'll miss the fact that you are wrong and they most certainly are.
Playing roach/hydra/viper against in the late game against a protoss that is not massively behind is suicide. By all means, keep suggesting zerg army comps that supposedly work against a mech or protoss death ball in the super late game and I'll do my level best to explain why it won't.
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On May 18 2014 07:22 Tosster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 07:10 LingBlingBling wrote:On May 16 2014 22:43 mostevil wrote:On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem. More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now. Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult... Swarmhost are a non factor in the top level pro scene aka Korea. Swarmhost are not even close to being broken in zvt and zvp, Koreans aka good players negate them easy and learned to play. Only people crying about swarm host are non skilled players on the ladder. Not one game in top level of play in zvz has involved SH. (Stephano trolling EU does not count) Rushing in and doing something drastic to SH will break other mu, if Blizzard finds a way to please the very few EU players in zvz with out effecting other mu, more power to them. That's why Parting doesn't qualified for IEM losing to Soulkey's mass SH? Make sense.
No Parting lost because he played worse than SK.
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On May 18 2014 09:20 Faust852 wrote:
For TvZ vs Mech, I might give you some replay where I lose to a Zerg against Ultra Viper, you'll see how strong this style is. I think it's much stronger than SH play.
And about ZvP, I saw so much macro game without SH, I'm 100% you don't need them to win. There are also the ultra/gling style, in addition with viper. Roach hydra viper corru is a totally viable type of play too.
ultra/ling/queen/brood lord is a timing-based build that relies heavily on taking very precise steps to slow down the protoss player (heavy harass on third base with upgraded lings, heavy creep spread, etc.) and take a lead that allows you to tech up into ultras and then brood lords before protoss can scout it, throw down double robo/double stargate and start building immortals/tempests. i have seen many professional level zvps where ultralisks were created and the one thing every single game had in common was that the second wave of ultralisks just dies instantly to mass immortal, unless the first wave pretty much wins the game outright. i don't think you understand what i mean by "stable macro style". zerg cannot just build ultralisks and zerglings and play the entire game that way, because the longer the game goes the more immortals protoss has and the ultras become useless.
you're still not understanding about the options zerg needs to have. roach hydra viper or roach hydra corruptor (not both, you don't go both corruptors and vipers to hit a timing) is a viable timing in the metagame because protoss can't just hardcounter it by teching to templar (vs vipers) and/or void rays (vs corruptors), since they would be weak to mass swarm host or roach/swarm host. if you take swarm hosts out of the game, there is basically no risk for protoss to add templar. when roach hydra techs up into swarm host/viper/corruptor you will see zerg trade out the roach/hydra with runbys, maybe move a few hydras to the main to defend warp prisms and a few roaches to the third to defend zealot harass until static defense is up. but ultimately the roach/hydra is useless and zerg does not want them in the lategame because they do absolutely nothing against colossus/void/storm/tempest
let me try to explain it again: lair tech armies have to hit a timing and do crucial damage. if the damage isn't done and both players come out even, zerg must switch techs, usually to swarm hosts or mutas. ultra or brood lord are viable from here in some circumstances, but again, if the ultra timing or brood lord timing fails and the game evens out without zerg dying to a counterattack (which is pretty unlikely altogether, since you can't retreat or reinforce ultras or brood lords effectively), you still end up fighting a protoss army you need swarm hosts against. there is no composition that counters colossus/void/templar/tempest/(immortal if ultras) unless you have swarm hosts. if you take swarm hosts out of the game, zerg is left with ZERO macro options and ONLY timing attacks. if zerg only has timing attacks and muta switches, every protoss will simply open stargate phoenix into colossus/void/templar and play reactively, just like they already pretty much do, and there is no reason for protoss to ever attack before max
very very very very rarely you will have a game where zerg just keeps tech switching back and forth and back and forth and neither player dies. these games are typically very entertaining, but they are not common nor the standard meta. normally one player will eventually attack the other (even if it takes the whole game and it's mass tempest vs inf/corr/viper), and whoever loses the engagement probably loses the game. so while it's possible for zerg to keep up that juggling act, it's not really a reasonable alternative for zerg players.
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On May 18 2014 16:54 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2014 07:22 Tosster wrote:On May 18 2014 07:10 LingBlingBling wrote:On May 16 2014 22:43 mostevil wrote:On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem. More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now. Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult... Swarmhost are a non factor in the top level pro scene aka Korea. Swarmhost are not even close to being broken in zvt and zvp, Koreans aka good players negate them easy and learned to play. Only people crying about swarm host are non skilled players on the ladder. Not one game in top level of play in zvz has involved SH. (Stephano trolling EU does not count) Rushing in and doing something drastic to SH will break other mu, if Blizzard finds a way to please the very few EU players in zvz with out effecting other mu, more power to them. That's why Parting doesn't qualified for IEM losing to Soulkey's mass SH? Make sense. No Parting lost because he played worse than SK.
Regardless of whether he played worse or not, SK clearly chose to employ that strategy. To say it's a "nonfactor" is silly, SH still play a role without question.
Not to mention that they are boring as shit to watch.
I'm not sure if it's just me being biased or not given my hatred to play against them (as random, hate them in TvZ, ZvZ, and PvZ), whether or not I lose. The playstyle you have to adapt to in order to play against the SH is what's so lame. I realize my posts haven't had too much quality as opposed to more of a rant, but I'm wondering if there are more people out there that have the mindset "regardless of whether or not it's a problem, SH are an overall negative on the game." I'm all for Zerg having appropriate adjustments (even implementation of a new unit, although probably wait til LOTV) in order to compensate for the lack of this unit (or even just threat of this unit), but I just want to see it changed.  .
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