|
On May 16 2014 14:01 Big J wrote:
Fully agree with Snute.
Yet, one thing that change might do is that we are just going to go back to mass muta wars anyways. Since the problem wasn't that you cannot deal with mutas eventually, but that opening with mutas was just way better and gave you an economy and map-advantage. So both players opened mutas and from there it just devolves into massing mutas.
And when they nerf the spore now under what it was (+10 instead of +15), I don't think that going 2basish hydra can ever keep up with that economy advantage of the muta play.
Tbh, I'm not even sure why they'd go ahead and implement the changes. Long SH in ZvZ are barely an issue (which Blizzard themselves recognised) so all of this seems little more than a storm in a teacup to me. I don't get it.
The main reason it has gotten so much traction is that most people dislike SH and also love to scratch the theorycraft itch.
|
On May 16 2014 14:54 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 14:01 Big J wrote:
Fully agree with Snute.
Yet, one thing that change might do is that we are just going to go back to mass muta wars anyways. Since the problem wasn't that you cannot deal with mutas eventually, but that opening with mutas was just way better and gave you an economy and map-advantage. So both players opened mutas and from there it just devolves into massing mutas.
And when they nerf the spore now under what it was (+10 instead of +15), I don't think that going 2basish hydra can ever keep up with that economy advantage of the muta play. Tbh, I'm not even sure why they'd go ahead and implement the changes. Long SH in ZvZ are barely an issue (which Blizzard themselves recognised) so all of this seems little more than a storm in a teacup to me. I don't get it. The main reason it has gotten so much traction is that most people dislike SH and also love to scratch the theory-craft itch.
I think it is for tournament reasons that they really want to deal with that ZvZ situation.
If organizers cannot keep up with their schedules it's a really, really bad thing for the esports product Starcraft.
|
On May 16 2014 15:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 14:54 aZealot wrote:On May 16 2014 14:01 Big J wrote:
Fully agree with Snute.
Yet, one thing that change might do is that we are just going to go back to mass muta wars anyways. Since the problem wasn't that you cannot deal with mutas eventually, but that opening with mutas was just way better and gave you an economy and map-advantage. So both players opened mutas and from there it just devolves into massing mutas.
And when they nerf the spore now under what it was (+10 instead of +15), I don't think that going 2basish hydra can ever keep up with that economy advantage of the muta play. Tbh, I'm not even sure why they'd go ahead and implement the changes. Long SH in ZvZ are barely an issue (which Blizzard themselves recognised) so all of this seems little more than a storm in a teacup to me. I don't get it. The main reason it has gotten so much traction is that most people dislike SH and also love to scratch the theory-craft itch. I think it is for tournament reasons that they really want to deal with that ZvZ situation. If organizers cannot keep up with their schedules it's a really, really bad thing for the esports product Starcraft.
If that is the case, I'd like Blizz to say that. Besides, many tournaments don't run to schedule regardless. And, like I said, the instances of long SH wars in ZvZ is less than a handful. Didn't Nerchio just defeat Stephano pretty easily in WCS EU when he tried his SH shenanigans? (Or so I hear - I'm watching less and less SC these days, and what I do watch is Code S and PL.) I'm just annoyed by a seeming approach of taking a hammer to crack a walnut and doing more damage in the process.
|
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard.
|
On May 15 2014 18:17 Musicus wrote:
On topic, this spore change from 30 to 25 damage makes sense. Mutas took 5 shots before (with hp regen mutas have slightly more than 120 HP, 121 or 122) and it will still take 5 shots now. Broodlords took 8 shots before and will now take 10, since they have 225 HP and will also regenarate 1 HP, if less than 10 spores are shooting at it I think.
Edit: I still don't like the idea in general (just make Broods immune to abduct), but 25 damage makes more sense than 30.
wrong, spores did 45 dmg and 3 shot mutas and 5 shot broods. now with the spore it 5 shots mutas and 10 shot broodlords. but since mutas are strong again they had to buff the hydra to compensate. the spore can fix the sh situation but not by much, cause free units vs free units op
|
On May 16 2014 15:39 Daswollvieh wrote:
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard.
They've always been that road with SC2.
|
On May 16 2014 19:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 15:39 Daswollvieh wrote:
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard. They've always been that road with SC2.
Unfortunately, yes.
|
On May 16 2014 19:35 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 19:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 16 2014 15:39 Daswollvieh wrote:
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard. They've always been that road with SC2. Unfortunately, yes.
I thought they never listened...
|
|
|
On May 16 2014 13:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:Am I the only one observing the latest hydra/spore change as nothing else than a shift of focus away from the actual problem or just a completely useless move? What are they trying to fix exactly? The initial topic was about SH and stalemate situations and now the train has derailed all the way to a bunch of spore (muta) and hydra changes that are pretty much only relevant in the midgame, like, c'mon... + Show Spoiler + if someone defends you're not gonna stop them from getting sh viper spore and Infestors, pretty good vs mutas. Even if the spores kill air units a little bit slower, still doesn't change the fact that there's 40 swarm hosts and 50 spores and the defending Vipers WILL KILL AGGRESSIVE MUTAS, VIPERS AND BROOD LORDS NO MATTER WHAT with multi-pulls ... Even if you would see more hydra and muta heavy midgames, those compositions don't hold up against spore SH viper infestor. A patch like this wouldn't change stalemate games at all. If you're playing intelligently you just do what you can to stabilize and defend (this is very possible), play like Stephano from there and go 3-4base swarmhost spore viper: Nobody can stop you from doing that. Not even with a spore/muta patch like this. Even if the amount of stalemates might become 1-5% less frequent thanks to Muta and Hydra buff and more volatile midgame, the problem is still there, 3 hour games and stalemates WILL HAPPEN and they will be stupid and boring to watch. BL immune to abduct (like the  Ultralisk has Frenzied) really on the other hand wouldn't hurt anything, really. I'm also confused by the community's (forum's) reactions in the polls on the first page  do you really think a hydra and muta/spore fix will make swarm host end-game less strong?  trust me, it won't or is it not even about the swarmhosts anymore? The biggest problem with this discussion and balance change right now in my opinion is that it's turned into a confusing ramble about two completely separate topics: endgame zvz (swarmhost viper spore infestor) and midgame zvz (hydra/muta/spore). If people out there are huge fans of mutas, wouldn't it be cool if there was a huge and expensive HERO MUTA that destroys everything including Swarmhost and Spores? I think it is called Brood Lo ... oh wait 
I've been on the "just make the BL immune to abduct" side from the start, thanks for elaborating on it again! The part about muta/hydra/spore and SH stalemates being two different matters is extra important, because the discussion really derailed at some point. The only thing that changed regarding SH stalemates now, is that spores take 9/10 hits to kill a broodlord instead of 5/6 (depends if they all hit at the same time or not). I don't think that will make a difference. Once they are pulled Broodlords will still die. Most Stephano games end with a 7k mineral bank, he can just build some extra spores even.
|
On May 16 2014 15:46 CrayonSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 18:17 Musicus wrote:
On topic, this spore change from 30 to 25 damage makes sense. Mutas took 5 shots before (with hp regen mutas have slightly more than 120 HP, 121 or 122) and it will still take 5 shots now. Broodlords took 8 shots before and will now take 10, since they have 225 HP and will also regenarate 1 HP, if less than 10 spores are shooting at it I think.
Edit: I still don't like the idea in general (just make Broods immune to abduct), but 25 damage makes more sense than 30. wrong, spores did 45 dmg and 3 shot mutas and 5 shot broods. now with the spore it 5 shots mutas and 10 shot broodlords. but since mutas are strong again they had to buff the hydra to compensate. the spore can fix the sh situation but not by much, cause free units vs free units op
I was talking about the new change, from 30 to 25 damage, not from 45 to 25. They wanted to do 15+15, now it's 15+10.
|
On May 16 2014 19:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 19:35 aZealot wrote:On May 16 2014 19:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 16 2014 15:39 Daswollvieh wrote:
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard. They've always been that road with SC2. Unfortunately, yes. I thought they never listened...
Blizzard is the parent that will listen to the crying spoilt brat that makes a lot of noise, while mostly ignoring the calm and rational one.
|
I am looking forward to this change.
I enjoy watching roach vs muta style, the choice is not just a map influenced composition but also a player stylistic one.
Wish more matchups are like this.
|
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents.
|
On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents.
A change should not break more things than it fixes...
|
On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents.
once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts.
Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore.
Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem. 
|
On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem.
More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now.
Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult...
|
On May 16 2014 22:43 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 22:03 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 20:35 Startyr wrote:
I have mentioned this a few times before. Remove the need for detecting swarm hosts, lategame zvz, players are never getting an overseer past the corrupters and spores.
Without that need players can actually push forward and kill swarmhosts with their own locusts and ground units, meaning the player with more available resources will end up winning.
This then means that the zergs can not just sit back and be passive they need to take their own bases and deny their opponents. once you are in range of the SHs with your locusts, you just kill all the spores around it and come in with Overseers. If he has Corruptors, he just has less SHs and that's bad. But even then you can just push with your own spores/SHs forward, until you eventually can kill the SHs with locusts. Watch Stephano, that's exactly what he does. That's not the problem that leads to stalemates. The problem that leads to stalemates is that you can camp behind chokes and superior SH numbers don't matter anymore. Sick idea: replace all 1size ramps with doublesize halfblocked ones. Fixes the problem. More ridiculous map limitations to "fix" bad game design... this is getting silly now. Swarmhosts are the problem, change the swarmhost, it's really not that difficult...
compared to "don't make any ledges", this would be a pretty tiny change.
Also, Broodwar's "bad game design" is the reason why we have to have those tiny chokes to begin with, so I'd be careful with throwing around this term for everything and anything.
But yeah, it was meant as a choke anyways 
|
On May 16 2014 20:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 19:48 Big J wrote:On May 16 2014 19:35 aZealot wrote:On May 16 2014 19:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 16 2014 15:39 Daswollvieh wrote:
Once you start catering to the screams of the masses, you´ll see how volatile and moody they are and that it won´t get you anywhere, because they like screaming so much. Don´t go down that road, Blizzard. They've always been that road with SC2. Unfortunately, yes. I thought they never listened... Blizzard is the parent that will listen to the crying spoilt brat that makes a lot of noise, while mostly ignoring the calm and rational one.
All brats think they are the calm and rational one.
|
How much damage does the Locusts have nowadays ? (i'm lost on this, used to be 16, then down to 14, then down to 12, is it 12 nowadays ?)
Anyway - why not make so that the SH locust do 6x2 instead of the current full 12 damage --> that would mean instead of 18 - 5 = 13 (assuming 3-3 ups on both SHs and Ultras) --> Ultralisks would receive (9-5)x2 = 8 damage.. Pretty sure that Ultralisks could become good to break these stalemates.. Either way - always loved the unit in ZvZ 
And yes - almost no effect in other matchups.. Well - not quite as negligibe as it first sounds, but still - here are the most concerning of them that are the most impactful, but still - beyond those - there's nothing to be concerned about really:
========================================================================================
ZvP --> this is the most critical side-effect of the change I thnk - poor Immortals will get SHREDDED double the faster, unfortunately, BUT - it could also mean more Sentry usage - Guardian-Shield usage I mean cause it would block 4 damage per SH shot as well, still - remains to think if it would be worth it really..
ZvT --> Probably the biggest change would be gunning down a Planetary of a Terran that has +2 building armor researched or a high-HP unit like the Thor or sth..
Still - beyond those mentioned "side-effects" there are none, and it's a fairly "reasonable" change.. I really think it's a (at least) a WORTH TESTING change
========================================================================================
Happy to see not so many boring SH games lately.. We even see very exciting SH games nowadays when players don't necessarily turtle hard when doing it.. And - props to Blizz and the map-making community that are doing a very good job at "dettering" that kind of play with the anti-SH-trutle-friendly map pools they're releasing lately
========================================================================================
And ofc. - as a side-note for giving opinion at the proposed changes - I REALLY wanna STRESS out the following "fact":
NO MATTER what the idea/solution would be --> DON'T NERF THE VIPER.. It can't be anything more wrong that that.. It's a fairly hard unit to use, don't make it harder.. AND it's the ONLY SUBSTITUTION "swarm-host" i.e. - area-dominance-by-role late game Zerg unit, - more importantly - with Viper being possibly the new SH would mean that SH could be more experimented with, while the Viper's role to remain Zerg's late-game "stability unit"..
So yes - any solution that includes Viper nerf is super bad IMO (cause it severely narrows down Zerg's late-game choices), and analogly (though not necessarily 100% true) - any solution that includes Viper buff would probably end up being good - cause it would mean more "free space" to "experiment with" "weakening of SHs" really..
IMO ATM --> Viper IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE SUBSTITUTION of SHs in Zerg's late-game play.. Stable Viper play would mean Zerg would still have a good "instigator" i.e. - start-the-fight-from-afar unit, only this time it would be better cause would much more rare mean forcing or creating stalemates while using it..
So yah - glad that the community is against this change, but not just for the sole cause of "this is a big change" - but also cause it's going DIRECTLY THE WRONG WAY and narrowing options where it shouldn't suppose to.. I think..
========================================================================================
Props for the Spore and Hydra changes though, really neat ideas to say the least
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
