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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:22 HeavenResign wrote: This needs to be put in a test map and posted on reddit. Sounds awesome. sorry if i'm being obtuse, but if the goal is to bring back lurkers via a test map... why not use the actual lurkers that are already in the game? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
If blizzard would like to have this "lurker effect", they would just add the lurker. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:41 Waise wrote: sorry if i'm being obtuse, but if the goal is to bring back lurkers via a test map... why not use the actual lurkers that are already in the game? Mostly because they suck. They actually tried implementing lurkers way back in WoL alpha/beta, but they just couldn't compete in a world with stimmed marauders and immortals. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:43 Squat wrote: Mostly because they suck. They actually tried implementing lurkers way back in WoL alpha/beta, but they just couldn't compete in a world with stimmed marauders and immortals. well i meant if we're already editing unit specs it seems like you could just edit the lurker to be a better lurker instead of editing the swarm host to be more like the lurker. but i defer to your knowledge of the unit's history | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:41 Waise wrote: sorry if i'm being obtuse, but if the goal is to bring back lurkers via a test map... why not use the actual lurkers that are already in the game? Because it's an improvement in some ways - Falling had a blog that basically theorized the reason that Lurkers really don't work in the game (aside from pathing) is that with tanky units like the marauder/immortal/roach, they would just shrug off the hits and move forward to kill the units. The Brood Lord/SH, in comparison, creates an obstacle those units need to overcome or risk dying from. This SH creates the obstacles in the form of 'free units', while having some of the advantages of the lurker, and still feeling like an SC2 unit (from what Hider says) edit: found it http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/425553-swarmhosts-safely-whittling-away actually the comment i was thinking of was this http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/379838-levelling-the-playing-field#19 | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:47 Waise wrote: well i meant if we're already editing unit specs it seems like you could just edit the lurker to be a better lurker instead of editing the swarm host to be more like the lurker. but i defer to your knowledge of the unit's history How exactly? Give it bigger numbers to make it viable against the hard counters that would destroy it? Give it similar range to hosts to give it a similar role? Both would probably the hugely OP. Zerg needs something that functions kind of like a host to compete, but making a super lurker to replace it might not be the best idea. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: Actual Lurkers would just suck in sc2. Marauder/immo/ collossi would rape them. you cant recreate the lurker how it was in BW in sc2 because Blizz says : hardcounters are fun and good design. so every bw unit where no hardcounters existed would suck in sc2 or would have to be significantly buffed to be a hardcounter. Well, they don't need to be made with exact stats. But we want a unit that burrows and does damage in area that is not a free unit. If Lurkers had good Antiarmored damage and lets say range 7 they could work in combinations with lings or roaches that would tank. Or with Fungal or Cloud. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On May 20 2014 01:24 Hider wrote: After having tweaked values in the editor, I discovered that you can actually recreate the Lurker effect by keeping the Swarm Host with tehse changes: - Locust duration reduced to roughly 3-4 seconds - Cooldown reduced to around 4-5 seconds - Swarm host mobility increased - Locust DPS increased by around 150% (2.5 times) - The spawn time of Locust eggs set to 0. - Burrow/unburrow duration reduced This reduces the effective range of the Locust to around 10 which means Siege tanks can outrange them. On the other hand, they are are really good at holding postions. I would almost argue that they feel better than Lurkers, because they are even more microintensive since you can constnatly unburrow --> reposition --> move them --> reburrow. Hmmm, was wondering If you could test my proposal changes from page 44 ?? (Was basically saying instead of 12 dps of locusts, make it that it is 6x2 instead, and test it how it works vs Protoss with Guardian Shield, Terran Thors, building armors/planetaries, or even Ultralisks, while basically being same to everything else I think) :D | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 20 2014 06:43 Squat wrote: Mostly because they suck. They actually tried implementing lurkers way back in WoL alpha/beta, but they just couldn't compete in a world with stimmed marauders and immortals. Actually its because they are BW units. Having terribly designed units that don't work in the game never stopped Blizzard from trying anyway. As long as it was created by the SC2 team, they will try 100x harder to make it work. If it was a BW unit, it just "wasn't meant for esports". | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On May 20 2014 12:03 sluggaslamoo wrote: Actually its because they are BW units. Having terribly designed units that don't work in the game never stopped Blizzard from trying anyway. As long as it was created by the SC2 team, they will try 100x harder to make it work. If it was a BW unit, it just "wasn't meant for esports". It was because of Ultralisks and Banelings having splash damage.. They felt it would've been too much for other races to handle Zerg having 3 very good splash ground units (though that "very good" didn't apply to Ultralisks much I think - except that "planetary-bug", lol).. In WoL alpha they had the Lurkers - those things were OP as f*ck though - Ultralisks didn't have a bonus dalmage vs Armored and had a fairly very low DPS when WoL was released, instead - the Anti-Armored splash damage was the "Lurker thing" instead Also - there was that "Seismic spines" (iirc the name) upgrade - that would increase their range from 6 up to 9 - same as Colossi (and same as Vikings - they too had 6 range and an upgrade for +3 range when they released them).. So yah - they were basically OP, and would've rendered Ultralisks useless  | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
Is the unit broken or is there simply a more fun possible configuration? I think they should look at it as swarmhosts exerting a certain amount of power in terms of dps and hp and play with varying that by changing the following their range of travel the range of units - mele would be better imo then when attacking tanks you get splash from other tanks the rate of production - a constant stream of weaker units could be more interesting perhaps. (less dmg more hp). This might produce a swarmhost that basically produces a meat shield. Personally i have the way swarmhosts tear through hellbats. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 20 2014 17:17 MrTortoise wrote: Gotta say ti seems strange that when you think about what the races embody you have zerg being the race with the best siege units and the terran with the seige tank that gets turned into a pewpew cannon. Hahahaha lol. Siege units? Lol. When was the last time a Swarm Host broke a position? A siege unit is something that actually does damage. That actually kills you if you don't engage it. Something that KILLS a defensive position, not against which you build even more walls and defenses. The Swarm Hosts absolutly fullfills no siege purpose in the current metagame. It's just plain shit at sieging. The only thing it does is force the opponent into turtling, which is the opposite of what a siege unit does. A siege unit punishes that. Zerg as it stands has no good siege unit at all. The SH doesn't fullfill that purpose, the Broodlord is pretty bad and the Infestor only tickles opponents and not even buildings. Try Colossus or Tempest for siege unit, because they are about the only siege units universally used at all in this game. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On May 20 2014 17:35 Big J wrote: Hahahaha lol. Siege units? Lol. When was the last time a Swarm Host broke a position? A siege unit is something that actually does damage. That actually kills you if you don't engage it. Something that KILLS a defensive position, not against which you build even more walls and defenses. The Swarm Hosts absolutly fullfills no siege purpose in the current metagame. It's just plain shit at sieging. The only thing it does is force the opponent into turtling, which is the opposite of what a siege unit does. A siege unit punishes that. Zerg as it stands has no good siege unit at all. The SH doesn't fullfill that purpose, the Broodlord is pretty bad and the Infestor only tickles opponents and not even buildings. Try Colossus or Tempest for siege unit, because they are about the only siege units universally used at all in this game. The swarmhost is a siegeunit in the true sense of the word. Siege units are not necessarily units that crush through defenses in a short time period. Establishing a blockade and winning by attrition is also a valid way to siege an enemy. And that is exactly what the swarmhost does. The longest siege in history took 21 years! WIKILINK If this is a good game mechanic is another discussion. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 20 2014 18:25 submarine wrote: The swarmhost is a siegeunit in the true sense of the word. Siege units are not necessarily units that crush through defenses in a short time period. Establishing a blockade and winning by attrition is also a valid way to siege an enemy. And that is exactly what the swarmhost does. The longest siege in history took 21 years! WIKILINK If this is a good game mechanic is another discussion. A siege engine is a device that is designed to break or circumvent city walls and other fortifications in siege warfare. What you describe is just a regular army positioned in a way that does some form of indirect damage, like a blockade of waterways, streets etc. or raiding parties to starve a place. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On May 20 2014 18:32 Big J wrote: A siege engine is a device that is designed to break or circumvent city walls and other fortifications in siege warfare. What you describe is just a regular army positioned in a way that does some form of indirect damage, like a blockade of waterways, streets etc. or raiding parties to starve a place. The swarmhost is a unit that creates a siege not a siege breaker. Its still a "siege unit" if it does that. There is nothing wrong with that per se. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On May 20 2014 18:25 submarine wrote: The swarmhost is a siegeunit in the true sense of the word. Siege units are not necessarily units that crush through defenses in a short time period. Establishing a blockade and winning by attrition is also a valid way to siege an enemy. And that is exactly what the swarmhost does. The longest siege in history took 21 years! WIKILINK If this is a good game mechanic is another discussion. I wouldnt be surprised if future swarmhost zvz would take 21 years also. But its questionable if that would be good game design. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On May 21 2014 00:59 404AlphaSquad wrote: I wouldnt be surprised if future swarmhost zvz would take 21 years also. But its questionable if that would be good game design. inb4 Real Life is badly designed. | ||
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