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On May 21 2014 03:09 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:05 Big J wrote:On May 21 2014 03:01 Existor wrote:
Concussive shells dont slow massive units anyways. But yeah, this also should change TW vs Ultras.
Edit: or doesnt t anyways? It slows colossi, right?
Colossies don't have Frenzy  Ah, kk. So they actually just make it immune to abduct and change the text I guess. Or is the Ultralisk now immune to burrow and pick ups as well? :-) What? Ultralisks still can burrow. I don't understand whats hard here. Brood Lords gain Frenzy ability. Now Frenzy ability gives ALSO immunity to Abducts. Result - Ultralisks and Broods now become Immune to Abducts. Nothing more
Was just making fun of the formulation.
Also Ultras absolutly cannot blink anymore now.
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David Kim listened to the community?... THIS IS MADNESS!!!!!!!
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I do like the frenzy part, however I still hope they reduce spore damage vs bio in order to make muta at least more viable than getting a few and immediately transitioning out of it. Roach vs Roach gets dull if it's all you ever see besides stalemates and bling wars, some muta/bling vs roach/hydra would be nice to watch.
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my solution: remove the swarmhost and replace it with the infested warhound.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Who knows, maybe Ultralisks will become immune only to ENEMY abducts?
my solution: remove the swarmhost and replace it with the infested warhound.
It's not swarmy at all, even when it will pop 3 out of egg, even with the Swarmounds name
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The other solutions seemed inelegant at best. This is nice becomes it opens up the metagame just a bit.
However, does this mean vipers are a dead unit in ZvZ?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 21 2014 03:33 wUndertUnge wrote:
The other solutions seemed inelegant at best. This is nice becomes it opens up the metagame just a bit.
However, does this mean vipers are a dead unit in ZvZ?
No, Swarm Host abducts are still there, and blinding spore/spine crawlers can also be good to save your overseers. Also blinding slow locusts can buy 1-2 seconds for Ultralisks to make some more hits and walk/anihilate through locusts.
Abducting infestors is another way to fight with festors.
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Hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong - but WHY focus on making BLords better instead of Ultralisks for that same manner ?
IMO - BLords are already useful a lot in a ZvZ, but what's currently not useful is the Ultralisk
(ok though - just checked the atk upgrade bonuses for locusts and saw them being +1 only instead of +2, but = have a little "proposition" actually)
Lower Locust starting damage to 5x2 (yup = 10 instead of 12), and then get (+1)x2 per level of upgrade..
That would mean the following --> have 16 max (start at 10 and end at 16, instead of start at 12 and end at 15), damage, but because the damage is divided by 2 - would mean that each point of armor of the opponent would reduce 2 damage taken instead of 3..
Having that in mind it would mean the following:
1 - current situation:
3-3 SH = 12 (+3) = 15 damage
3-3 Ultralisk = 5 Armor (3 armor per upgrade level, and +2 from chitinous plating)
Ultralisks currently take 10 damage per shot of locust
2 - the change
3-3 SH = 5x2 + (3x2) = 16 damage = (5(+3))x2
3-3 Ultralisk = 5 Armor
Ultralisks with the change would take (5(+3)-5)x2 = 6 damage
Locusts would do only 6 damage to the Ultralisk on 3-3 vs 3-3, whilest everything else would remain basically the same except Immortals and Thors and Guardian Shield..
GS would reduce a lot of damage, Immortals would take a lot more damage (double the damage per shot actually), and Thors would take 2 less damage than currently..
But STILL - Guardian-Shield and Ultralisks would be a lot more viable (something that hasn't much been used ATM really)
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On May 21 2014 03:03 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 21 2014 03:01 Existor wrote:
Concussive shells dont slow massive units anyways. But yeah, this also should change TW vs Ultras.
Omg, Time Warp ALREADY does not affects ultralisks. So what do they mean when they say movement altering? Was it the wrong phrase? What other spell could they mean? Movement altering - Abduct Movement slowing - Time Warp, Concussive Shells Roots - Fungals Controlling - Neural Parasite
I guess the wording confused me.
Because to me, abduct doesn't affect the unit's movement but is instead affecting the unit's placement. It seems more similar to control spells than it does to a movement altering spell. Time Warp and Conc sound like things that affects movement to me.
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On May 21 2014 03:43 VArsovskiSC wrote:Hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong - but WHY focus on making BLords better instead of Ultralisks for that same manner ? IMO - BLords are already useful a lot in a ZvZ, but what's currently not useful is the Ultralisk for example - make Locust instead of 12 damage, do 6x2 ==> which would mean - Ultralisks would tank a lot more damage - more like the following: 3-3 Locust = 15 damage (12 + 3 per upgrade level) 3-3 Ultralisk = 5 armor (with Chitinous plating upg) Ultras take 10 damage Now - if locusts instead of 12 have 6x2 you have: 3-3 locust = 9x2 = 18 damage Ultralisk armor = 5 Ultralisks take (9-5)x2 = 8 damage..  OK, I see the "wrong" thing - thought that Locusts were getting +2 damage per upg, while they were just getting +1 but something along those lines might make it I think - like - maybe lower their starting damage to 5x2, and then have 16 max (start at 10 and end at 16, instead of start at 12 and end at 15), but the biggest change would be: Locusts would do only 6 damage to the Ultralisk on 3-3 vs 3-3
Blizzard's change simply makes brood lords better against spore/viper. Your change would make swarm hosts worse against everything.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Because to me, abduct doesn't affect the unit's movement but is instead affecting the unit's placement. It seems more similar to control spells than it does to a movement altering spell. Time Warp and Conc sound like things that affects movement to me.
Abduct can be considered as ability, that allows to move differently than just walk on ground. Ultralisks can't walk through cliffs/unpassable terrain, and abducting is not a "drop" stuff
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Sure, it may work, but it's a silly solution to a problem stemmed from a terrible unit.
Blizzard and their bandaid "fixes"...
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 21 2014 03:50 purakushi wrote:
Sure, it may work, but it's a silly solution to a problem stemmed from terrible unit.
Unit is not terrible I like that blizzards are trying to not change SH because community whines about it. There was already great ZvP game where protoss killed SH zerg with tempests and carriers.
And blizzards buffing zerg air siege in zvz to make it a bit more viable in zvz too.
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On May 21 2014 03:49 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:43 VArsovskiSC wrote:Hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong - but WHY focus on making BLords better instead of Ultralisks for that same manner ? IMO - BLords are already useful a lot in a ZvZ, but what's currently not useful is the Ultralisk for example - make Locust instead of 12 damage, do 6x2 ==> which would mean - Ultralisks would tank a lot more damage - more like the following: 3-3 Locust = 15 damage (12 + 3 per upgrade level) 3-3 Ultralisk = 5 armor (with Chitinous plating upg) Ultras take 10 damage Now - if locusts instead of 12 have 6x2 you have: 3-3 locust = 9x2 = 18 damage Ultralisk armor = 5 Ultralisks take (9-5)x2 = 8 damage.. OK, I see the "wrong" thing - thought that Locusts were getting +2 damage per upg, while they were just getting +1 but something along those lines might make it I think - like - maybe lower their starting damage to 5x2, and then have 16 max (start at 10 and end at 16, instead of start at 12 and end at 15), but the biggest change would be: Locusts would do only 6 damage to the Ultralisk on 3-3 vs 3-3 Blizzard's change simply makes brood lords better against spore/viper. Your change would make swarm hosts worse against everything.
OK, maybe - but it's not that SwarmHosts are the problem, it's the PDD actually..
If PDD becomes something like instead of 100% damage mitigation of missiles more like 75% of it - would make SHost a lot more viable to break "entrencheed" positions, and have that provide some more "manouvering space" to experiment with SH nerfing..
I updated my original post b.t.w. - SHs start with 2 less starting damage, but instead of +1 - they'd get +2 per upgrade, and therefore having it better in late-game, while still being "breakable" by high-armor units..
AND - the most important thing --> adds up (instead of taking away) - diversity
EDIT (just checked this - Ultralisks have 6 armor on 3-3 (not 5) - so that would make it even worse for those "silly things" - would make ultras taking only 4 damage instead of the current 9 they're taking )
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On May 21 2014 03:50 purakushi wrote:
Sure, it may work, but it's a silly solution to a problem stemmed from a terrible unit.
Blizzard and their bandaid "fixes"...
As I said before, unit being "terrible" is just an opinion and nothing else, there are many that like Swarm Hosts or at least aggressive Swarm Host play.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
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On May 21 2014 03:59 Existor wrote:
Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
Yeah because this would not at all get shut down in 5 seconds flat at the pro level. If I wanted to rely on gimmicks, I'd play protoss.
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On May 21 2014 03:59 Existor wrote:
Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
I think that they will certainly try to change Swarm Hosts in LotV, they just avoid changing the design of the unit in the middle of expansion.
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On May 21 2014 03:18 Penguinator wrote:
David Kim listened to the community?... THIS IS MADNESS!!!!!!!
listened to the western community.
Koreans must be wondering wtf is happening, with all those changes
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On May 21 2014 03:56 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:50 purakushi wrote:
Sure, it may work, but it's a silly solution to a problem stemmed from a terrible unit.
Blizzard and their bandaid "fixes"... As I said before, unit being "terrible" is just an opinion and nothing else, there are many that like Swarm Hosts or at least aggressive Swarm Host play.
I'm fine with swarm hosts being used aggressively, but Blizzard needs to change the unit itself to promote aggressiveness. Currently, there is too much passivity when swarm hosts are used. Also, it should be strategic and at least somewhat mechanical, aggressive play and not just leaving the units there to endlessly attack with free units with spores/queens/vipers around them.
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EPT
